Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VansCrew1 on November 25, 2012, 08:58:12 PM

Title: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: VansCrew1 on November 25, 2012, 08:58:12 PM
Whats up every one it's been a while since i was last on. Had real life issues to deal with and a broken hand to boot. I'm hoping to maybe getting back into the skys after my cast is off. That's a long story in it's self. Needless to say im back in upstate NY near Fort Drum ( junkyII if your still on back message me! ).

Anyways to get to the topic. There's a lake effect band working it's way over my way. Seen this in the radar and figured i would put it up. It looks like the radar echo has some anomaly with in the doppler. Did a little research and got the images from the radar and another similar image i pulled off of Google by searching a few things.

First large image:
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z144/VansCrew/Capture1-1.png)

Second close up image:
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z144/VansCrew/Capture3.png)

Third Image from google: ( :noid )
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z144/VansCrew/h-8.jpg)

All in good fun
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: mthrockmor on November 25, 2012, 09:10:01 PM
On a serious note, several years ago some Brit cell phone engineers had a bright idea to track the B-2. Some how they are able to track signals between transmitters. While radar works on the target sending the radio signal back to the radar set, they realized that the shape of stealth planes reflected the radio waves anywhere but the radar set. They figured they could track the B-2 by simply following the disruption in signals from one cell phone tower to another.

It worked. The Pentagon went nuts, story was printed then pulled though not before my firm printed it. Discovered in the UK but printed in an Australian paper, go figure. In any case, it was this concept that helped the Serbs shoot down a F-117 over kosovo a year or so later.

Boo
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Pand on November 25, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
That would be one hell of a bomb dropped from a B-2 with a 4mi wingspan :) 

All in good fun! :)
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Daddkev on November 25, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :huh :huh :huh :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Meatwad on November 25, 2012, 09:26:28 PM
Looks like a Tetris storm a-coming
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: VansCrew1 on November 25, 2012, 09:38:53 PM
That would be one hell of a bomb dropped from a B-2 with a 4mi wingspan :) 

All in good fun! :)

Too-shay, well played Sir... well played 
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: zack1234 on November 26, 2012, 01:52:39 AM
So stealth bombers are trackable by people viewing facebook on cell phones :old:

Why are they called cell phones?
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: icepac on November 26, 2012, 07:59:24 AM
It's easy to track the B2 in non-combat conditions if you have the pilot's cell phone number.

Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: zack1234 on November 26, 2012, 11:04:05 AM
 :rofl
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: BFOOT1 on November 26, 2012, 12:06:02 PM
It's easy to track the B2 in non-combat conditions if you have the pilot's cell phone number.


I bet they get great reception up their too  :D
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: VansCrew1 on November 26, 2012, 12:07:51 PM
I bet they get great reception up their too  :D

 :aok :rofl
Thats funny right there
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: icepac on November 26, 2012, 01:51:53 PM
That's just how the dar bar displays on the Canadia terrain.

Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Babalonian on November 26, 2012, 05:15:07 PM
It's easy to track the B2 in non-combat conditions if you have the pilot's cell phone number.



Or its transponder code/#.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Stellaris on November 26, 2012, 05:35:04 PM
Using ambient emitters (eg, television stations, radio stations, etc) as the source in bistatic radar is a technique literally as old as radar.  The first British experiments used a BBC broadcast station as the source.  During the war the German parasit system used the British Chain-Home radars to track British bombers - the Germans figured that no matter how much the British jammed and windowed them, they'd never turn off Chain-Home.  They were right. 

And yes, it defeats stealth.  First because the receiver isn't where the emitter is, and so the stealth shaping is no longer redirecting the energy away from the receiver.  Second because most of those sources are lower frequency than the X-band ST radars stealth is designed around.  The lower frequencies "see" the whole aircraft, so the shaping is ineffective even with a monostatic system, and of course the skin is less absorptive at those freqs too.  The downside is that lower frequencies give you less localization, but they get you close enough that you can switch to other techniques.

Ambient sonar is also in widespread use.  Lots of ambient sources in the ocean - or even out of it.  Anything supersonic in the sky dumps a lot of energy into the water over a big area.  The must have been so sad when Concorde was grounded.  It was even on a regular schedule...

All supposedly secret too, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist.  You can get the math off wiki.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Banshee7 on November 26, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
Hey, VC!  It's been a while, man!  Hope things get better for ya!

#S#



Josh
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: cpxxx on November 27, 2012, 09:41:03 AM
I seem to remember the Serbs shot down the F117 for a more basic reason than that. They had spotters out and there were only a limited number of routes that could be used. Basically they salvoed hundreds of missiles in the path of known sightings and only got lucky once. If they really had some form of special electronics they would have brought down non stealthy aircraft in droves.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: smoe on November 27, 2012, 11:33:40 AM
On a serious note, several years ago some Brit cell phone engineers had a bright idea to track the B-2. Some how they are able to track signals between transmitters. While radar works on the target sending the radio signal back to the radar set, they realized that the shape of stealth planes reflected the radio waves anywhere but the radar set. They figured they could track the B-2 by simply following the disruption in signals from one cell phone tower to another.

It worked. The Pentagon went nuts, story was printed then pulled though not before my firm printed it. Discovered in the UK but printed in an Australian paper, go figure. In any case, it was this concept that helped the Serbs shoot down a F-117 over kosovo a year or so later.

Boo

So basically every enemy knew how to track stealth fighters. I wonder if the stealth fighter pilots were given information or was it on a need-to-know basis only?
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: superpug1 on November 27, 2012, 05:56:13 PM
The pilot went back and met the missile battery commander not too long ago. They take vacations to eachother's homes with their families. The commander of the battery actually did some pretty smart stuff to find the F-117s and get his missiles on the right track to where the IR heads could pick up on them.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Stellaris on November 27, 2012, 10:54:17 PM
Stealth is like camouflage.  It doesn't make the plane invisible to radar, it makes the plane hard to see on radar.  It is far from perfect, and bistatic and low frequency techniques see it better.  That doesn't make it useless, if only because most radars are monostatic and high frequency. 
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: guncrasher on November 28, 2012, 09:06:17 PM
So basically every enemy knew how to track stealth fighters. I wonder if the stealth fighter pilots were given information or was it on a need-to-know basis only?

think about it.  how did they know that the stealth fighter was flying over it and not something else causing interference.  the only way to prove it was to know in advance of the path of stealth fighters.  I kinda doubt that information would be released to the public from the AF.  also kinda doubt that engineers would risk their jobs to prove such a thing, after all tracking airplanes is not really something they're supposed to do on company time.


midway
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: fbEagle on November 29, 2012, 10:11:52 AM
Quote
Ambient sonar is also in widespread use.  Lots of ambient sources in the ocean - or even out of it.  Anything supersonic in the sky dumps a lot of energy into the water over a big area.

Problem is that the B2 is subsonic.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: crazyivan on November 29, 2012, 08:46:00 PM
Vanscrew, trys to sneak this in every year. :rofl Tetris thunderstorm :lol
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: Stellaris on November 30, 2012, 08:15:44 AM
Problem is that the B2 is subsonic.

LOL!  OK, I wasn't clear enough here - I was talking of ambient radiation tracking systems in general.  Sonar is (obviously) mostly used to track submarines.  The problem with ambient fields is that to get good localization you want a nice sharp pulse (like a traditional sonar ping), or even better a chirp, and while whales and dolphins provide these in abundance, they're very low power.  However Concorde used to cross the Atlantic at Mach 2.  With several departures scheduled daily, no less.

Get what I'm saying?

This technique could theoretically serve to track aircraft as well, as the speed of sound in water is greater than the speed of sound in air, so you'd get advance warning of the aircraft inbound.  However the localization and delay involved wouldn't allow you to target weapons directly.   I have no idea if this was ever done.  Tu-95 are loud but subsonic, so the energy transfer across the water-air interface would be very low.
Title: Re: Mysterious radar echo over Easter lake Ontario
Post by: icepac on December 01, 2012, 08:51:26 AM
In high school, I worked drilling and populating circuit boards for a what later became the air launched "sonobuoy".

They ended up being able to hear/sense the Tu95s when they flew over.