Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pand on December 09, 2012, 04:05:22 AM
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I have seen this defensive "tactic" employed by 190s and Spits more and more as the years go on. Despite the fact that it took 7 bursts at or near convergence to finally take him down, should the pilot (and/or plane) be able to sustain this maneuver and over again without his head exploding in the cockpit from the negative Gs? At a minimum (if his head doesn't explode), should it induce a redout lock, similar to the inverse sustained blackout?
Try to ignore the enemy taters being sprayed all around me while all this is happening, it can get distracting! :)
Note: Don't forget 720p to actually see what is happening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-q4E_qC5fM
Discuss.
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(http://lans-soapbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg)
:rofl I gotta say though, for stick stirring, this guy takes the cake, I think, if you don't count warpers :lol
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Its pretty lame as he lacks the slightest ambition to beat you, instead, he is trying to set up a pick in a questionable way.
I have seen some stick stirrers but this is something unique.
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That's not a Run90. :old:
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Lag.....100% lag nothing more :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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THat's not lag, that's sustained negative G...doesn't look right to me....
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HTC is less than remotely concerned with any sort of realism. This is not a combat flight simulator, it is a game full of gamers. Get used to it, it never ever... ever, will change.
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HTC is less than remotely concerned with any sort of realism. This is not a combat flight simulator, it is a game full of gamers. Get used to it, it never ever... ever, will change.
:aok
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I didn't see that as stick stirring at all. Those who call this stick stirring have evidently never seen actual sick stirring. This was really nothing more than a negative G flat scissor. Generally I love when people start to flat scissor in front of me although I'll admit the neg G aspect of this one might have caught me by surprise at least momentarily.
I guess as long as he can ride the red-out it's no different than riding the tunnel in a black-out.
That said I find it a questionable tactic in that the E burnt sustaining that move has to be massive, ultimately putting him in a much worse position than a more traditional approach. He certainly had better options.
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HTC is less than remotely concerned with any sort of realism. This is not a combat flight simulator, it is a game full of gamers. Get used to it, it never ever... ever, will change.
agreed, it's it's too bad :(
I also agree that is NOT a stick stir. Stick stirring has the target flopping all around in no real/apparent mode of flight. At least this guy was still flying the plane, altho very oddly.
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Not right, just an opinion. I trust the orignal film/file has been submitted so that the hard data can be examined?
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Not right, just an opinion. I trust the orignal film/file has been submitted so that the hard data can be examined?
What is there to examine? The guy wasn't even doing the floppy fish. Just a very odd, and not very effective, negative G scissor.
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Hi Pand,
Fascinating video. I couldn't catch it all the first look, but after re-reading
the post and seeing your recommendation to watch it at 720, it became
a lot clearer.
Those were some great moves he was performing. Whether or not they
could actually be done in real life, I don't have a clue. But I would
venture a guess that the vast majority, if not all, real world pilots
back then would have been impacted greatly by the pressures/lack thereof
of blood flow to the brain trying to replicate 'em.
Looked to be a fun fight. From the dispersion of those
rounds flyin' over your shoulder, it also looked like the
enemy on your six was havin' a godawful time tryin' to
get a decent lineup on ya as you stayed locked on the wolf.
Best regards, Odd
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HAHA! I found that awesome, he was being quite predictable and making you look silly (no offense). Looked to me as though if he had been more aggressive he might have forced an overshoot by you. I suspect this was difficult for you merely cause it is rare and he seemed do be doing it well. Undeniably there will be more of this after most watch and or experience this, thus creating the experience needed to defeat it efficiently. Don't frett this too will run its course as folks gain experience in defeating it!
JUGgler
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Thanks all for the comments!
His original plan was to run; however, once he realized that option was no longer available, he started the negative G shenanigans.
These types of evasives used to be rare, but are becoming more and more common. The question is around the pilot being able to sustain this type of maneuver. Ultimately if their head doesn't pop, they still end up dead.
A quick search found the following:
Negative g's are also possible, and are similar to positive g's except blood is pushed upwards into the
head instead of pulled away. At negative g forces , blood becomes lighter so that the heart actually pumps
too much blood to the brain causing red out. A few seconds of red out may lead to recoverable migraine
headaches and tissue swelling. But at forces much less than –3g’s, blood vessels will burst and can cause
instant death.
I hope I didn't look too silly--- if I had been in a cannon bird, only one of my 7 bursts would have disabled him. :joystick:
All and all it was fun with a lot of action going on around me--- This was the most extreme/repetitive/consistent negative G experience I have seen, so I wanted to share. :D
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That looked like some Area 51 thrust vectoring experiment.
:noid :bolt:
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I have some of the same issues with 190s mostly. Doesn't seem like they should even be flying. I thought you did the right thing by pulling up to reduce speed and then coming down on him, the bigger target.
I've always tried to fly smooth.
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The REAL question here is who was flying the P-51B... because, as EVERYONE has been told you're just a pick and run ganger... and it looked like you were alone, using flaps...
So, who WAS that?!
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That video cracks me up :lol
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I think you were brave. I would never fly after a guy with enemy rounds barely missing my plane for such a long time. :salute
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I see this from knights so much I can tell you who the pilot is without seeing the AH film.
Thats not stirring but he did cost you a lot of ammo and he got you in a sticky position if nothing else. I usually tickle this fellow with a good burst and look for a different target. He usually heads right home and lands.
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The REAL question here is who was flying the P-51B... because, as EVERYONE has been told you're just a pick and run ganger... and it looked like you were alone, using flaps...
So, who WAS that?!
True point. All i have seen from Pand was something entirely different and i did not like it, to phrase mildly.
Maybe i was wrong, maybe not. Still waiting for a good DA match to see what he knows and what i dont.
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definitely not stick stirring.......and there was no major negative G sustaining.....I would not doubt this can and was done in TRW....in a last ditch trying to save your bacon situation......
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The Negative G's this guy was pulling could not be sustained by any person without going into a Red out.
Air Force/Navy pilots are trained to sustain up to Positive 7-9 G's generally, that is a lot and more than almost any untrained person could handle without blacking out.
Negative G's are a whole different ball game, I do not know as much but I can tell you at Negative 3-5 G's you will be in so much pain or going into Red Out, no way you would be able to do this time after time, even if you are a trained pilot. he's pushing Negative 5+ G's easily by the looks of it.
Anyway, my point, it could definitely not be done IRL pushing that many Negative G's that many times in a row. Not to mention you'd probably puke doing all the rolls with it as well :lol
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Youtube's security certificate has expired. It's asking me if I'd rather watch Carl Sagan's Cosmos.
Which is a pretty good program at least.
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Could this all just be an artifact from the game's smoothing code?
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Fast roll without losing altitude,specially at treetop level at 500mph+, together with unchallenged ability to lose speed in turns, forcing overshoot is best way of surviving in an FW A-series.
Some planes can dive with a A8, but most can not maneuver with them at 550mph+.
Sometimes I land more auger kills than gun kills, scraping off Pony's in the trees rolling @500 mph +
One short negative G while rolling vertical down, while gaining speed agianst pesky K-4's is another favourite, when closer to the ground pull up, fully trimmed up and see the ex-pesky K-4 making a beautiful hole in the ground.
If you don't want to see 190s in AH, ask for reduction of roll rate of 190s, and you will see no 190-A series there any more.
They cant run from 51s, some 47s, yak's, Lala's, f4u's and some spits, they cant turn sustained with anything that resembles a fighter ( and many/most bombers (!), reducing roll rate would be an effective 190-killer in the game. They cant zoom good , and climb sux 4k-8.5k.
I see more pull-pushers, and fish-floppers from late Spit-series planes, than I ever did from 190s in the MA.
I have some of the same issues with 190s mostly. Doesn't seem like they should even be flying. I thought you did the right thing by pulling up to reduce speed and then coming down on him, the bigger target.
I've always tried to fly smooth.
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I still find that film amusing. 5 times I have watched it now :D
I wonder if I have a Pandstang Defence Tactic film somewhere? :P
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I still find that film amusing. 5 times I have watched it now :D
:rofl :rofl
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I see more pull-pushers, and fish-floppers from late Spit-series planes, than I ever did from 190s in the MA.
The only time I got called out for "flippy floppy bs" was in a 190F-8... that thing turns into a wet cat at stall speed.
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(http://lans-soapbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg)
:rofl I gotta say though, for stick stirring, this guy takes the cake, I think, if you don't count warpers :lol
I don't think that was stick stirring... the point is the negative g's pulled in that ridiculous "scissors".
Negative G's, being far more dangerous to the brainpan and face/eyes... I think you should go into redout land for extended periods just like blackoutville.
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This guy had you twice, but instead of working the roll-rate he went into the negative G thing. My preferred is the barrel roll defense. The 190 being both fast and great acceleration those on the 6s bore in for the kill. I begin to barrel roll them, they keep boring in, trying to roll with the 190 to no avail. Then at the right moment a good hard turn, another barrel roll and they overshoot.
Completely different story if they know what a 't-h-r-o-t-t-l-e' is. Fact is, if something gets on your 6 only stupidity on their end will get them off. As Save says, the 190 only has the roll but done right with a weak-minded adversary you should be just fine.
Boo
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This was a Dora.
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PS Obviously you are not a weak minded adversary. I hate the negative G fish flop but, that and the 6G turning Lancs, always a laugh.
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PS Obviously you are not a weak minded adversary. I hate the negative G fish flop but, that and the 6G turning Lancs, always a laugh.
Thanks Boo :neener:
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That looked like some Area 51 thrust vectoring experiment.
:noid :bolt:
Works as intended
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HTC is less than remotely concerned with any sort of realism. This is not a combat flight simulator, it is a game full of gamers. Get used to it, it never ever... ever, will change.
Ouch. Did someone pee in your Fruit Loops this morning? There comes a point when if the players have to be more concerned about the mixture of fuel, pitch of props, trim of elevators and rudder, etc, etc, that it becomes a hindrance on having fun (a.k.a "game play"). While I think there are a number of things in AH that could be tweaked I dont think in the least bit the HTC is not concerned about accurate flight models, etc.
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The 190 did a pretty good job of evading you given the circumstances, and with a little more awareness/aggressiveness, he probably could have reversed you. Nonetheless, he did manage to drag out the fight for awhile, brought you to the deck, slowed you down, and led you to an area filled with enemies. You likely survived after that, but you took that bait and put yourself in a very dangerous situation.
As far as AH flight model oddities, I point you here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06f0GF0VAwA)
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The 190 did a pretty good job of evading you given the circumstances, and with a little more awareness/aggressiveness, he probably could have reversed you. Nonetheless, he did manage to drag out the fight for awhile, brought you to the deck, slowed you down, and led you to an area filled with enemies. You likely survived after that, but you took that bait and put yourself in a very dangerous situation.
As far as AH flight model oddities, I point you here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06f0GF0VAwA)
I did make it home :) That k4 hot on my tail ran out of taters :cheers:
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Oh wow he's doing neg G reversals. Never seen that before. :huh
hilarious vid
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I don't think that was stick stirring... the point is the negative g's pulled in that ridiculous "scissors".
Negative G's, being far more dangerous to the brainpan and face/eyes... I think you should go into redout land for extended periods just like blackoutville.
That was not a scissors (imo), for once I will stick up for Pand and say he was simply staying behind him trying to hit this guy stirring like a 2 week fish out of water.
All of that neg G bs he pulled every time Pand got guns on him, I would personally classify that as Stick Stirring, certainly not any kind of ACM by any means :huh
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Just wondering Pand,how fast where you going during this?Ty for sharing btw.
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That was hands down the funniest video I've seen since candy mountain. :banana:
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Fast roll without losing altitude,specially at treetop level at 500mph+, together with unchallenged ability to lose speed in turns, forcing overshoot is best way of surviving in an FW A-series.
Some planes can dive with a A8, but most can not maneuver with them at 550mph+.
Sometimes I land more auger kills than gun kills, scraping off Pony's in the trees rolling @500 mph +
One short negative G while rolling vertical down, while gaining speed agianst pesky K-4's is another favourite, when closer to the ground pull up, fully trimmed up and see the ex-pesky K-4 making a beautiful hole in the ground.
If you don't want to see 190s in AH, ask for reduction of roll rate of 190s, and you will see no 190-A series there any more.
They cant run from 51s, some 47s, yak's, Lala's, f4u's and some spits, they cant turn sustained with anything that resembles a fighter ( and many/most bombers (!), reducing roll rate would be an effective 190-killer in the game. They cant zoom good , and climb sux 4k-8.5k.
I see more pull-pushers, and fish-floppers from late Spit-series planes, than I ever did from 190s in the MA.
I want the 190s I just don't understand how they can stick stir and still be up.
BTW watch Pervert fly a 190 and you will just be amazed how smooth he flies and how he can kill about anything. Pretty good stuff.
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Just wondering Pand,how fast where you going during this?Ty for sharing btw.
Initial dive when he started running I hit around 500. We were around 350-400ish when he started rocking the hardcore negative gs.
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The guy wasn't stick stirring and it's a legitimate RL maneuver called a negative G pushaway typically used as a guns defense. As the NME fighter is getting ready to gun you in a turn you simply stuff your stick forward. It works for two reasons. The first is that everyone expects you to pull harder as he saddles up for a tracking shot so you have the element of surprise. The other reason is that all aircraft have to pull lead for a tracking shot and a pushaway can easily cause him to lose sight. The trick is to time the push just as the NME pilot is about to pull the trigger. Done correctly it's a very effective technique and can easily result in scissors or role reversal.
So, that's the positive side, the negative G pushaway is perfectly legit. Now, the negative side (no pun intended). Most pilots can't do it effectively and certainly not in the repetitive way you see in the film and there are several problems beyond the redout that many have mentioned.
First, it's extremely uncomfortable (always) and unnatural (unless you're an experienced aerobatic pilot). Do this more than a couple times in a row and you're a hurting puppy. Also, ask most pilots to push negative G and then check the G meter. You'll usually find that most pilots think they went negative when in fact they only pushed to zero G which doesn't really work that well as a guns defense. BTW, this is one of the first exercises they had you do at TOPGUN because nobody ever really pushes to negative G, they have to be trained to do it.
Second, from an even more practical point of view, cockpit restraint systems (harness and belt) typically do a lousy job of keeping you in your seat during negative G's unless you have them as tight as possible. Unfortunately, having the belts tight enough to keep you firmly in the seat during negative G also restricts your ability to turn around in the cockpit during ACM so most guys fly with them "tight" but not really ball-buster tight. It's basically a choice between keeping sight and being fully prepared for negative G. Everyone I know will chose keeping sight. Even ball-buster tight doesn't work that well because the typical belt pulls you back and down so you still pivot up and back (i.e., away from your controls) during negative G. Basically, as you get to 0G you're "floating" in your seat but as you get to negative G you're hanging upside down from it and usually your head is against the canopy. This is true for me even though I'm only 5'6". So you might ask "so what?" Well, if you're hanging from your harness your feet are probably off your rudder pedals and you can't keep the stick forward enough to sustain a negative G turn. You can do a hard push to negative G (if you've practiced it) but it's only for a second or two unless your butt is nailed to the seat or your harness is as big and strong as Chuck Norris' jock strap.
So, is the maneuver legit? Yes. Could he do continuous negative G maneuvers back-to-back as in the video? While theoretically possible I'd say no way.
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Ah.....the voice of reason. Try explaining this to someone via PM in game after reversing them and sending them crying to the tower...doesn't usually work. Now I have a thread to point them too.
Thanks Mace.