Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GScholz on December 16, 2012, 02:46:36 PM
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I find myself in agreement with Freeman's views. How about you?
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26232318/morganfreeman.jpg)
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine?
Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
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When I read that it was in his voice in my head. But seriously, he's right. 100% unarguably right.
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there is far more to blame then the media....
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Could you elaborate on that Ink, unless it will violate the posting riles?
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The vast majority (85%+) of these shooters were either on or just getting off some physcho medicine like prozac, etc. That is NOT to say that this leads to all shootings but the connection is there. Next time you watch a TV commercial for a mood altering drug they will list possible side effects to include violent and/or suicidal thoughts. Again, I'm not saying this is the cause. Without a doubt many factors involved but it. Is the mmost common connection.
Sad!
Boo
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One of the few time freeman and I will agree on something. I rarely take any note of any actor or entertainers opinions on anything. I have little respect for their antics and behavior. It's my fervent opinion they are vastly overpaid and over sensationalized themselves. While I will enjoy their performances I also know that it's all make believe and their craft produces nothing to benefit others and to no risk to themselves. To me it should be valued at the unskilled labor level and paid as such.
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Could you elaborate on that Ink, unless it will violate the posting riles?
I would love too...but I cant it would break rule 14 :salute
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there is far more to blame then the media....
As in the lack of family values? Lack of responsibility for ones own actions? Lack of discipline? Lack of ... on and on and on.....
The sad thing is the awesome amount of people that are blaming an inanimate object(s) for these events.
I'm not too keen on Morgan Freeman's mostly left leaning stances, but on some topics he is spot on. This is one of them. The other issue he has spoken of is the idiocy of having a "Black History Month", when the history of this country and the world should be woven together and not separated. He feels, and I completely agree that once we specify a period of time to recognize things of historical value (specific dates aside), the importance of that issue in our ever day lives is lost.
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As in the lack of family values? Lack of responsibility for ones own actions? Lack of discipline? Lack of ... on and on and on.....
The sad thing is the awesome amount of people that are blaming an inanimate object(s) for these events.
one of the comments I read "get rid of killer guns".....how stupid can a person be to blame an inanimate object for something like this.......
the level of stupid in this world has increased exponentially in the last 100 years
yet most think we are smarter and more advanced :rofl :rofl
......gotta stop.........
oh and the one who commented on actors and their views....dead on man....they are the highest paid people in america...for what....make pretend...what the hell does that say about society.
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While I will enjoy their performances I also know that it's all make believe and their craft produces nothing to benefit others and to no risk to themselves. To me it should be valued at the unskilled labor level and paid as such.
The vast majority of actors are. Only a very few get to actually live, and live well, from acting alone. Much like athletes. Freeman is also not just an actor, but also a Doctor of Arts and Letters and a pilot. If you believe that actors do not produce anything that benefits others then that would apply to all art.
However, this is a digression...
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I would love too...but I cant it would break rule 14 :salute
Yes, let's keep this thread within the rules. :salute
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oh and the one who commented on actors and their views....dead on man....they are the highest paid people in america...for what....make pretend...what the hell does that say about society.
So because they have a well paying job you don't value their opinions? Why do you value anyone's opinions? Fact is they are seen by millions and therefore have a platform. Hopefully (and most of the time) there opinions and messages are positive. They do provide a service, entertainment. People need to be entertained. Entertainment makes people happy and happy people generally do not go on shooting rampages. I agree with what Morgan Freeman said also. The less we know,hear, or think about the shooter the better focus on the victims.
Also athletes for the most part get paid very well. I believe average pay for practice squad players in the NFL is around 400k a year.
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The vast majority (85%+) of these shooters were either on or just getting off some physcho medicine like prozac, etc. That is NOT to say that this leads to all shootings but the connection is there. Next time you watch a TV commercial for a mood altering drug they will list possible side effects to include violent and/or suicidal thoughts. Again, I'm not saying this is the cause. Without a doubt many factors involved but it. Is the mmost common connection.
Sad!
Boo
Prozac is most commonly used to treat Depression symptoms. So, what you're saying is that they'd be more likely to shoot up a school after coming off the drug, assuming because they feel like they're strong enough to continue life without it? :headscratch:
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Sci-Fi author David Brin posted the same idea on his blog earlier this year:
http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2012/07/names-of-infamy-deny-killers-notoreity.html
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I think the real question is what's unique about the United States. Events like these have become, sadly, almost commonplace here. There is obviously, like or not, something deeply wrong with the American psyche that isn't present in practically any other western, civilized society in the world. Is it that our media is all that different? Is it because we've departed more from 'family values' than European cultures have? Is it just because it's easier to get guns? Is it because we glorify violence and going out with a bang more than anyone else?
Or it's something else?
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Sadly it is not unique to the U.S. The first recorded "school shooting" in Europe was in Bremen, Germany June 20, 1913. A 29 year old unemployed teacher shot and killed five girls and wounding more than 20 other people, before being subdued by school staff. Since then there have been about 20 more school shootings in Europe, the most recent one being at the University of Pécs in Hungary, 2009. While not a school shooting, in my own country there was a horrible lone-wolf attack last year that left 77 people dead; mostly children and young adults.
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Sadly it is not unique to the U.S. The first recorded "school shooting" in Europe was in Bremen, Germany June 20, 1913. A 29 year old unemployed teacher shot and killed five girls and wounding more than 20 other people, before being subdued by school staff. Since then there have been about 20 more school shootings in Europe, the most recent one being at the University of Pécs in Hungary, 2009. While not a school shooting, in my own country there was a horrible lone-wolf attack last year that left 77 people dead; mostly children and young adults.
The occurrence of this kind of thing isn't unique, but the sheer frequency is unfathomable compared to any place else. There have been more than twice as many school shootings in the United States as the rest of the world combined since Columbine.
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That is certainly true...
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Motherland,
On Friday, in China, a deranged man entered an elementary school and stabbed 22 children with a knife. Fortunately, last I had heard none had died. I have no doubt that had he been able to obtain a gun he would have used a gun instead of a knife. I am not suggesting guns need to be banned in the US. Such a thing is literally impossible. I was merely referencing another deranged act on the same day of similar type in a very different culture. China has, in the last few years, had a rash of adult men stabbing school kids in schools.
Deranged people do deranged things and sometimes those deranged things are violent. The question becomes, "What can we do to reduce the harm that they do?"
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Motherland,
On Friday, in China, a deranged man entered an elementary school and stabbed 22 children with a knife. Fortunately, last I had heard none had died. I have no doubt that had he been able to obtain a gun he would have used a gun instead of a knife. I am not suggesting guns need to be banned in the US. Such a thing is literally impossible. I was merely referencing another deranged act on the same day of similar type in a very different culture. China has, in the last few years, had a rash of adult men stabbing school kids in schools.
Deranged people do deranged things and sometimes those deranged things are violent. The question becomes, "What can we do to reduce the harm that they do?"
I think that we have to look at this as something with multiple problems with multiple solutions, and I definitely think that your point is accurate, though the role of firearms of this is being done to death and I think it's definitely a mistake to focus solely on that. Also of course that's a huge issue on this board that always just turns into feces-throwing.
However another problem I think we have is that we're being forced to accept these kinds of things as just 'something that we should get used to' by certain people, as opposed to talking about the causes and how they become worse and looking for solutions.
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Looking for other ways to reduce the damage is what Morgan Freeman was getting at in the OP's quote.
From David Brin's article I linked on the last page:
David Brin wrote:
... Small surprise - this is not a new problem. Two millennia ago, in the Hellenistic era, a young man torched one of the seven wonders of the ancient world — the Temple of Diana at Ephesus. When caught and asked why, he replied first with grievances against individuals and his city state, then admitted that he really wanted to make a mark, to be remembered. Since he wasn’t a great warrior, or creative person, his best chance was to gain infamy by destroying something. ...
If fame/infamy is a drawing factor, remove that factor.
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What's the solution though? Just don't tell people what's going on in the world?
It's kind of a double edge sword, I think. There were apparently shootings that happened this year that either weren't reported or just weren't remembered (by me at least), and years previous as the body count wasn't high enough. I mean, this is really only compared to Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Aurora- only the truly unique and 'big' events really stick on the national level. You could imagine that at some level, if fame motivates it at least, they want to kill enough people that the national media really just has to report on it. It's like a monster that feeds itself.
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Read Brin's article that I linked to. Nothing about not informing people, but rather about denying the fame sought by the deranged person(s).
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Read Brin's article that I linked to. Nothing about not informing people, but rather about denying the fame sought by the deranged person(s).
You'd have to wonder how effective that would actually be in the internet age, although it's definitely an interesting premise
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I agree completely with just not watching the 'Ted Baxter Wannabe's' ..
'News' is all about who's dead, and who's dead near you.
I pass.
The only time a killers name need be mentioned is when he is executed.
I do not need to know how many people died as if it is some kind of contest.
I fully agree with the way Texas handles killers.
Fast trial, fast execution, all done ..sorry 'media'
..perhaps 'media' can find a cat stuck in a tree ..see ya.
As for actor's opinions .. like people ..some have way more on the ball than others.
Most are lost without a script to read ..
..on their own in front of a microphone they have to depend on what they know.
A lot of actors just do not know much and think that because they are 'famous' their opinion matters.
I call those types of people ..
..Wrong.
-Frank aka GE (just sayin -tm Pasha)
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The vast majority (85%+) of these shooters were either on or just getting off some physcho medicine like prozac, etc. That is NOT to say that this leads to all shootings but the connection is there. Next time you watch a TV commercial for a mood altering drug they will list possible side effects to include violent and/or suicidal thoughts. Again, I'm not saying this is the cause. Without a doubt many factors involved but it. Is the mmost common connection.
Sad!
Boo
no you are wrong. you are still stuck on the idea that using meds like prozac is only for crazy people. I can make a statement something along the lines that "100% of mass shootings are committed by people with firearms so the guns are to blame.." and that would be misleading too.
why this people commit mass murders we'll probably never know. you can say that they are mentally unstable but what exactly is the definition of "mentally stable"? if there ever is one definition probably most of us will fit under the category of "mentally unstable". that or you can believe that your family is the brady bunch. then of course you find out about all the crap that happened between them.
midway
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Motherland,
On Friday, in China, a deranged man entered an elementary school and stabbed 22 children with a knife. Fortunately, last I had heard none had died. I have no doubt that had he been able to obtain a gun he would have used a gun instead of a knife. I am not suggesting guns need to be banned in the US. Such a thing is literally impossible. I was merely referencing another deranged act on the same day of similar type in a very different culture. China has, in the last few years, had a rash of adult men stabbing school kids in schools.
Deranged people do deranged things and sometimes those deranged things are violent. The question becomes, "What can we do to reduce the harm that they do?"
:aok
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
absafnlutely.
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
Exactly!! Well put sir
:salute
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Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
I don't think that is entirely correct. The vast, vast majority of us would never do such a thing. Would in fact die trying to stop it should we find ourselves in such a situation.
I do think the 24 hour, always blaring, always looking for ratings news channels do play a role though. I suspect, strongly, that at least some of these perpetrators are motivated to, instead of just blowing their own brains out as they would have in the '50s and '60s you reference, try to do as much damage in as shocking a way as possible to get their name in lights. To be infamous when they feel they can be nothing else.
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media is only putting out what people want to see.....
they are very good at their job....
blaming anything but the individual....and society as a whole....is missing it.
Blaming Society is not saying that all would do it.....but we have become numb to violence...it is in everything...it is everywhere.....it is what we perpetuate in the world...it is what we as a nation are....
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
I don't think the reason kids who were bullied shoot up high schools is because they were never beaten up. Probably the contrary
Anyway it's not like school shootings weren't already alarmingly common in the 50s and 60s, whether or not you remember it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States
Interestinly enough, the most deadly attack on a school in the United States, albeit not with guns but with bombs, remains dating back to 1927 when 38 elementary schoolers were killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
(but this is entirely a modern phenomenon due to a new generation of little brats)
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Newspapers and news stations have been using this adage since the 50's and 60's. "If it bleeds, it leads."
Since the end of WW2, the American family has went from the single parent source of income to the multiple sources of income from one or both parents resulting in a slow movement of generational teenage children being left home to their own devises from the 1970's to the present. Each new generation of has unleashed a more incentive to being materialistic, shallow, and violence accepting. Some exceptions here and there.
This isn't an issue for gun control, movie violence and video game violence, or drugs to cure mental illness. This is an issue of ethical teachings.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not cheat.
Do not covet.
and...
Do not KILL!!!
Basic common sense approach to ethical behavior that all decent people can agree on from all walks of life.
What more can you say?
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Philosophical point:
Some see man as inherently good, corrupted by outside influences. Sort of like Tarzan. Raised from an infant by apes yet grows into a nearly proper, Victorian style gentleman without any of the influences associated with Victorian input. He was noble because he was man. Corrupting outside influences, in this case would be guns. If only we had no guns man would not act as such a savage.
The counter view to this is the natural man is inherently evil, or given to selfish acts. The nature then of man is to act in their best interests and we must work to overcome these naturally selfish inclinations. This view is best summed by the book and novel, Lord of the Flies. Noble creatures left to their own devices become a savage tribe, murdering Piggy within short weeks. Think sex, men would love to love all the women of the world yet work to restrain thought and action.
Classic, guns do not kill people, people do. Is as true as spoons do not make people fat, choices do.
Man is inherently selfish, working towards benevolence.
Boo
PS gun control will work as well as the War on Drugs has.
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Philosophical point:
Some see man as inherently good, corrupted by outside influences. Sort of like Tarzan. Raised from an infant by apes yet grows into a nearly proper, Victorian style gentleman without any of the influences associated with Victorian input. He was noble because he was man. Corrupting outside influences, in this case would be guns. If only we had no guns man would not act as such a savage.
The counter view to this is the natural man is inherently evil, or given to selfish acts. The nature then of man is to act in their best interests and we must work to overcome these naturally selfish inclinations. This view is best summed by the book and novel, Lord of the Flies. Noble creatures left to their own devices become a savage tribe, murdering Piggy within short weeks. Think sex, men would love to love all the women of the world yet work to restrain thought and action.
Classic, guns do not kill people, people do. Is as true as spoons do not make people fat, choices do.
Man is inherently selfish, working towards benevolence.
Boo
PS gun control will work as well as the War on Drugs has.
It's easy to say 'it is part of life, get over it', but this is not just part of life, it is the symptom of a very sick society that has been sick for a long time and needs to be healed. You can't just say it's a natural function of man when ours is the only society where adults gun down kids or kids gun down other kids in school with such an alarmingly regular basis.
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Ink, USAFCAPcTSgt,
I see what you are saying, but personal responsibility doesn't work for people who's minds are not with us in reality, who's minds are broken for whatever reason. This doesn't excuse what they do, but it has to matter to those of us who are living in reality and who's minds do work. Since we know that personal responsibility has never, through all of history, worked to restrain the insane we have to look to other solutions rather than just preaching something that to those who do these things is nothing but a quiet caress of wind on cherry blossoms compared to the screaming in their heads.
Given that they cannot take personal responsibility, we must.
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Personally, I don't think it's necessarily "society" that's responsible.
I think blaming it on society is just a knee-jerk easy-route answer, just as poorly directed as blaming it on the weapon the individual chose to use.
Neither is to blame, and blaming either one (or even both) will just lead to frustration, repeats of the event, and in the end there will be no actual resolution.
In reality, the society I live in (good ol' USA) does not condone this behavior. We don't appreciate it, teach it, encourage it, minimize it, or excuse it.
In reality, the society is just the sum of the individuals that make it up, and the individuals are just the product of the environment (society) they live in. The society and the people that make it up, are synonymous.
The people that do these things are not "normal", i.e. they aren't synonymous with the society. They're a statistically infinitesimal faction within the society, but they most certainly do not represent the society, and the society most certainly does not represent them. Blaming the greater whole for the extremely rare out-of-the norm defect is insane and irresponsible. It's going to get people killed.
Since they're not a "normal" chunk of society, they aren't going to be effectively controlled by the "normal" controls (laws, morals, fears, and motivations) that the rest of the society is controlled by.
Forget the lame-azz easy-route scapegoats (guns, laws, society) and please begin looking for the real root of the issue.
This tiny faction of nutcases feels tiny, isolated, frustrated, and ignored. They want fame. We're giving it to them.
The longer we waste time looking at the wrong things (and using them as leverage for political gain) the more society (and the good folks that make it up) will suffer. It's time to look outside the box!
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we as a society completely accept violence....we encourage it....
it is our first reaction.....
obviously this is violence taken to the most extreme and no one in their right mind finds violence against children OK
remember I am a father of 9 kids some are the same ages.....
I grew up in violence yet I always hated it, hated myself for becoming violent....
we are not naturally violent...I don't agree with those that say we are.
Ink, USAFCAPcTSgt,
I see what you are saying, but personal responsibility doesn't work for people who's minds are not with us in reality, who's minds are broken for whatever reason. This doesn't excuse what they do, but it has to matter to those of us who are living in reality and who's minds do work. Since we know that personal responsibility has never, through all of history, worked to restrain the insane we have to look to other solutions rather than just preaching something that to those who do these things is nothing but a quiet caress of wind on cherry blossoms compared to the screaming in their heads.
Given that they cannot take personal responsibility, we must.
I absolutely agree, when someone is not in the right state of mind to know right from wrong it is up to us as a society to make sure they do not harm others.........
Newspapers and news stations have been using this adage since the 50's and 60's. "If it bleeds, it leads."
Since the end of WW2, the American family has went from the single parent source of income to the multiple sources of income from one or both parents resulting in a slow movement of generational teenage children being left home to their own devises from the 1970's to the present. Each new generation of has unleashed a more incentive to being materialistic, shallow, and violence accepting. Some exceptions here and there.
This isn't an issue for gun control, movie violence and video game violence, or drugs to cure mental illness. This is an issue of ethical teachings.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not cheat.
Do not covet.
and...
Do not KILL!!!
Basic common sense approach to ethical behavior that all decent people can agree on from all walks of life.
What more can you say?
you forgot a couple...but you are dead on correct....
imagine a world were everyone followed 10 simple straight forward perfect laws.
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
Hajo I'm going to disagree with you. Mass murder goes back to the beginning of time. This isn't about a school disagreement. it's about a nut job who killed kids and teachers at a school.
We can blame society but then we'd have to look at ourselves. I was all set to rant about TV today and it's influence, then I remembered what a Rifleman fan I was. And that good upstanding cornerstone of the town shot and killed someone every show and we expected it cause they were the 'bad guys'. I bet you, like me went around carrying that plastic Tommy gun and playing army as a kid. We've made guns part of the fabric of who we are, and no one better dare touch that, yet we are surprised when someone who is clearly crazy takes a gun and shoots a bunch of people.
It's insane, and 99.9 percent of us would never ever consider it. Yet we all have houses with guns in them. We watch shows where problems are solved with guns. We play video games with our kids that involve killing. We watch sports that involve violence. We get bombarded with people spewing hate, and we wonder why some mentally ill kid fails to separate fantasy from reality?
We all want to find someone else to blame or some thing, yet we as a society are unwilling to look at the things that may contribute for fear that we might lose what we see as our freedoms. We'd never go crazy like that so why should we give up anything? We can't expect to have everything and not lose something at the same time. And this is part of that.
In the end I think it won't be about guns, entertainment violence, video games or the failure of parents. It will come down to are we willing to spend the money on a system that looks out for and provides care for the mentally ill and disenfranchised. We've cut and cut and cut on that and the resources are no longer there. So those folks get missed and we pay the price elsewhere.
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we as a society completely accept violence....we encourage it....
it is our first reaction.....
obviously this is violence taken to the most extreme and no one in their right mind finds violence against children OK
remember I am a father of 9 kids some are the same ages.....
I grew up in violence yet I always hated it, hated myself for becoming violent....
we are not naturally violent...I don't agree with those that say we are.
I don't see that where I live...
While violence to some degree can be seen once in a while here and there, I've never seen it "encouraged" per se. Being aggressive in sports, or other competitions, sure, but at the same time sportsmanship and fair play is stressed as well...
Violence on TV and movies basically follows the trend of good triumphing over evil; violence against innocents is portrayed as "bad", and while violence is often used to overcome evil, that's a far cry from encouraging anything that would lead to killing a bunch of innocent children.
I can't think of an example where that kind of violence is accepted or encouraged.
I've played violent video games, watched violence portrayed, and seen it in person. I'm not violent as a result. Neither are any of the "normal" people I know.
We're not brainwashing ourselves to be violent, or to accept or encourage it against innocents. I'm not buying that argument, even though it's a common scapegoat.
These nutcase crackpots are not the product or byproduct of our society. They're a festering defect that threatens it.
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Right on Guppy, you nailed it.
Maybe.........Just Maybe........A lack of God in our society could be the problem. Heinous acts of Evil occur because the perpetrator does not believe they have to answer for their actions, here on Earth or the Hereafter. I'm not a Bible thumper guys, but do believe you might have to answer for your evil deeds come judgement day.
We cannot stop Evil or understand it, we can only try to defend ourselves against it.
Eric Holder suggests we have stricker gun controls after selling the Mexican Drug Cartell's over 2,000 Semiautomatic rifles witch was responsible for over 200 deaths including one of our border agents.
Enough said by me on this topic, I don't want to be the one that shuts it down. This is Horrific and can't even fathom the hurt put upon the people directly affected.
I'm praying for the Families affected by this.
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I think humiliating them after death would be good. Let any future killer know that his corpse will be stripped naked for all the world to see his wee bits, and let the crows eat him.
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I graduated from high school in 1971. We lived in an upper middle class town on the north shore of Long Island. We had about 2,900 kids in the school, 783 seniors in my graduating class. That year, we had 13 fistfights in the school.
In 2011, the same school, same demographic, had less than 2,200 students (they built a second high school in the middle 70s to reduce crowding). There were 618 seniors in the graduating class. In 2011, they had 92 fistfights in the school.
What changed? Figure that out and you will know why violence has increased. I think that it's very obvious that the culture has changed for the worse...
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The vast majority (85%+) of these shooters were either on or just getting off some physcho medicine like prozac, etc. That is NOT to say that this leads to all shootings but the connection is there. Next time you watch a TV commercial for a mood altering drug they will list possible side effects to include violent and/or suicidal thoughts. Again, I'm not saying this is the cause. Without a doubt many factors involved but it. Is the mmost common connection.
Sad!
Boo
Yes there have been cases down here also where open facility treatment patients just snapped and committed murders. Same kind of an effect can happen with drugs used for people wanting to quit smoking - they're usually the exact same drugs used as antidepressants. My father had to quit his anti-smoking treatment because he started to get bad side effects and got suicidal thoughts.
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I agree with Freeman.
:aok
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If the names of the murderers were not hyped and their tally.... I think it would curtail such heinous crimes.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Q8O3B1aWM
Agree or not it wasn't MF
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A few years ago when Chris Benoit killed his family and then himself. Vincent McMahon came on the air Tuesday night during ECW and announced that Benoit would be forever blacklisted from WWE. They will never mention his name again.
That should be done for all trajedies.
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A few years ago when Chris Benoit killed his family and then himself. Vincent McMahon came on the air Tuesday night during ECW and announced that Benoit would be forever blacklisted from WWE. They will never mention his name again.
That should be done for all trajedies.
So he made a big announcement of never mentioning his name again.. Sounds illogical to say the least.
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Morgan Freeman denies making statement about school shooting.
http://news.yahoo.com/morgan-freeman-denies-making-statement-school-shooting-013627371.html (http://news.yahoo.com/morgan-freeman-denies-making-statement-school-shooting-013627371.html)
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Maybe.........Just Maybe........A lack of God in our society could be the problem. Heinous acts of Evil occur because the perpetrator does not believe they have to answer for their actions, here on Earth or the Hereafter. I'm not a Bible thumper guys, but do believe you might have to answer for your evil deeds come judgement day.
Then again, religious belief has fueled many of our most notorious, widespread and heinous acts of violence. It's easier to justify violence as "ok" when God is supposedly on the side of the perpetrator.
Not just individuals either... Groups of people killing groups of people. Crack open a history book; start with "Manifest Destiny".
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Then again, religious belief has fueled many of our most notorious, widespread and heinous acts of violence. It's easier to justify violence as "ok" when God is supposedly on the side of the perpetrator.
Not just individuals either... Groups of people killing groups of people. Crack open a history book; start with "Manifest Destiny".
everything I try to type breaks #14
blaming God for what man has done is worse then blaming the Gun.
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I see many good points posted here, but let's not get into religion. Religion is not responsible for your actions, nor do you need religion to be a decent person.
I do believe that the celebrity status of mass murderers and serial killers is a big causal factor for the individuals that commit these crimes. However, we must set a side those killings that have been motivated by revenge; when going trough the list of school shootings in the U.S. I found that the majority was revenge motivated, perpetrated by a single student who committed suicide or murder-suicide at his school, usually with very few casualties, often only the perpetrator himself. These kinds of suicide/murder-suicides happen everywhere, and the only reason they are "shootings" in the U.S. is the availability of firearms; especially handguns. In Europe and elsewhere other weapons are used instead, often with much the same result.
The crimes I believe the media and our own celebrity worshiping culture is driving is the lone outsider, often middle-age male who sees himself as a failure, who, as someone put it: wants to "go out with a bang"; to put his mark on the world in the only way he seems able.
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So far, three have been suspended. Religion discussion, is a no-no.
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Morgan Freeman denies making statement about school shooting.
http://news.yahoo.com/morgan-freeman-denies-making-statement-school-shooting-013627371.html (http://news.yahoo.com/morgan-freeman-denies-making-statement-school-shooting-013627371.html)
I wonder if the real author will step forward. In the end it doesn't really matter; he/she used Freeman's celebrity status to spread the message, a good message.
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Since the early birth of this country guns have been in all or most of americas' homes. Early to supply food for the family and self defense. Blaming a gun for this tragedy is just about as intelligent as blaming the SUV a girl used to back over her Fiance TWICE in our locality. Place the blame squarely where it needs to be. We have Dr. Phil and who knows what not on TV everyday trying to school the country or individuals where their shortcomings are. We as a whole are making this more difficult and complicated then it needs to be.. Dr Phil is on TV to make money. The TV station and his sponsors do so to make money. Maybe he sincerely wishes to help...but hey...he does it for money.
And as Mr Freeman said in a round about way...our society now appears to glorify violence. Take a look at the movies produced and the TV shows we now have. He's right. Law and Order, Law and Order SUV and on and on and on.
No room for a Walt Disney Show on Sunday nights anymore. No one would watch.
To me it is simple. Teach core values. There were great core values chiseled on tablets many years ago. Now...it's almost unpopular to say one believes in those ten core values for fear of being ridiculed. Some aspects of those core values can't be displayed in some instances. Not in Govt. Buildings, Schools, or publicly in front of places where people go to discuss these core values during certain parts of the year.
Yes....those of my age were lucky to have a parent home at all times to reinforce these core values. Is society lazy now?
I wonder how many would go to the movies to see The Maltese Falcon now? I'm thinking it would be declared boring, very few would see it. Definately a change in our society eh? Core values didn't change or did I miss the memo?
As Crosby Stills and Nash said. "Teach....... your children well"
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http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2 (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2)
Take a look at this article from Mother Jones. There seems to be some common themes from the reported motives. I noticed a few trends. What do you guys see?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund# (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund#)
This article suggests our recent wave of killings may not be as statistically high as we thought. Does the media hype these things up too much?
Whatever we can glean from all this, this isn't a problem we can legislate our way out of.
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Oops, article was already posted.
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Morgan Freeman never made those statements. :rofl
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Morgan Freeman never made those statements. :rofl
Welcome to nine hours ago...
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzbyig0pln1r09icno1_500.jpg)
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100% unarguably right.
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Stick 2 police to guard each school. Money gets guards, factories have guards, why not for 1000 children? I recall always seeing a couple police walking around my schools, if something broke out seemed there was always a cop within 80 yards.
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police are too busy filling their parking ticket quotas to raise funds for the town or state
that's way more important than protecting children
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even as a hoax its all a bit embarassing for Morgan really, considering how much money he has made from acting in movies involving serial/spree killers and general gun-worship. his agent/PR must have had a busy couple of days.
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police are too busy filling their parking ticket quotas to raise funds for the town or state
that's way more important than protecting children
*points to the trash bin full of trolls* Go that way and never return.
For what it is worth, I never had any quotas of any kind when I wore the shield or the star.
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I'm guessing you would rather have been out on the beat doing real police work than spending every shift wandering around an elementary school as a security guard too.
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I'm guessing you would rather have been out on the beat doing real police work than spending every shift wandering around an elementary school as a security guard too.
Im guessing whether or not it was Winter time had much sway in this decision.
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I think the real question is what's unique about the United States. Events like these have become, sadly, almost commonplace here. There is obviously, like or not, something deeply wrong with the American psyche that isn't present in practically any other western, civilized society in the world. Is it that our media is all that different? Is it because we've departed more from 'family values' than European cultures have? Is it just because it's easier to get guns? Is it because we glorify violence and going out with a bang more than anyone else?
Or it's something else?
These are the correct questions to ask. The assumptions necessary to develop a problem-hypothesis will be based on the answers to these questions. Well done
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Motherland,
On Friday, in China, a deranged man entered an elementary school and stabbed 22 children with a knife. Fortunately, last I had heard none had died. I have no doubt that had he been able to obtain a gun he would have used a gun instead of a knife. I am not suggesting guns need to be banned in the US. Such a thing is literally impossible. I was merely referencing another deranged act on the same day of similar type in a very different culture. China has, in the last few years, had a rash of adult men stabbing school kids in schools.
Deranged people do deranged things and sometimes those deranged things are violent. The question becomes, "What can we do to reduce the harm that they do?"
And providing some evidence that where there is a will, there's a way. If they don't have guns, they use knives....if not knives, clubs, if not clubs, rocks and now we've reached prehistoric man. What is causing the US and, as China incident suggests, move backwards in time?
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could you kill 26 people in 3-4mins with a rock? :headscratch:
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I grew up in the fifties and sixties. No one would think of doing something of this magnitude. It wouldn't be thought of as an option.
The first mass killing that I remember was by a deranged ex-marine in a tower in Texas. That was in the early 60s.
If there were a disagreement at our school it would be taken up across the street in a mano a mano fist fight. No jerks with guns
or knives. Afterwards....winner and loser forgot about it. It was settled. No one bringing knives or guns into school. Again
not an option, unheard of.
Place the blame squarely where it lies. On todays society.
All great points....so the question remains....why are some demographics of society rapidly changing their views on what defines right and what defines wrong and why is real, real, wrong the path these people take? I hate saying it because I'm not perfect but....
PARENTING = the beginning, middle and end of teaching children accountability
PARENTING = what love looks like to a child
PARENTING= the example of work ethic, social behavior, marital example, parenting example
PARENTING= attention. Does our society as a whole pay enough, and, the right kind of attention to our own children...or is that iPhone more important?
99% of the time, loving them isn't enough. We have to show them we do by paying attention to them when they speak, when they act out, when theyve done well or poorly, etc. I'm not perfect....I'm just suggesting it all starts at home and when I was a kid, well, you all know that story. Corporal punishment was allowed, parents agreed with it and you got it again when you got home.
Maybe it's the law...maybe kids suing their parents and vile crap like that gives kids too much latitude...if you don't like it, hire an attorney and that candy donut will find a way to get you out of it.
Your imperfect buddy,
Changeup
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could you kill 26 people in 3-4mins with a rock? :headscratch:
No. So, now hiding behind a bush and clubbing people to death one at a time is better than all at once? I figured some one would pick the rock and run with it. You missed the point clearly.
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could you kill 26 people in 3-4mins with a rock? :headscratch:
NOPE but why do you assume they go rock when they could go bomb?
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police are too busy filling their parking ticket quotas to raise funds for the town or state
that's way more important than protecting children
True to your idiot form. Just a clueless windbag.
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I want to know what was wrong with the mother of the shooter?
The shooter was known to struggle with mental issues, why was he given access to guns?
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Police/security personnel needing to be present and on guard in schools is actually a ridiculous idea :)
But you already seem to need it, and have it, in some high schools and colleges :aok I guess it's just a ridiculously f'ed up society you live in
What a wonderful place
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I guess it's just a ridiculously f'ed up society you live in
What a wonderful place
(http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad81/jrk9259/BB.jpg)
It does make life easier. No thinking required.
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Well without wanting to be needlessly argumentative, I really don't think commenting on the state of American society (such as it is) can be construed as painting everyone within that society with the same brush.
If you said that British society has gone downhill in the last couple of decades especially with the prevalence of chav culture, not only would I agree with you, I wouldn't take that to mean you were calling all British people chavs.
:)
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26232318/firstresponders.jpg)
Some of the comments posted in this thread disgust me.
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Well without wanting to be needlessly argumentative,
That's all you do, why pretend you don't want to be that way?
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There is nothing wrong with arguing, or presenting an opposing viewpoint from the prevailing opinions
My above post was slightly close to nit-picking though :old: But the post I was responding too was stupid, so I had to say something
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it's all George W Bush's fault
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There is nothing wrong with arguing, or presenting an opposing viewpoint from the prevailing opinions
My above post was slightly close to nit-picking though :old: But the post I was responding too was stupid, so I had to say something
see that's the problem, you dont want to form an opinion that gives an opposite view but rather you just want to make an statement to amuse yourself. you are in new zeland and yet you make statements all the time to make people think you are a full blooded american which you are not.
your own statement that you invite friends to join aces high while telling them that the bb is something to amuse themselves gives you away.
midway
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There is nothing wrong with arguing, or presenting an opposing viewpoint from the prevailing opinions
My above post was slightly close to nit-picking though :old: But the post I was responding too was stupid, so I had to say something
^--- this guy is such a
True to your idiot form. Just a clueless windbag.
To write this...
Police/security personnel needing to be present and on guard in schools is actually a ridiculous idea :)
But you already seem to need it, and have it, in some high schools and colleges :aok I guess it's just a ridiculously f'ed up society you live in
What a wonderful place
The UK has had Hungerford and Dunblane.
Dunno where your head is mate. Where the Sun don't shine?
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yet you make statements all the time to make people think you are a full blooded american which you are not.
Really? If I make such statements all the time then you should be able to quote one. Let's see it.
Besides, my location is right there under my name, I'm not trying to fool anyone.
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The UK has had Hungerford and Dunblane.
What does the UK have to do with what you quoted?
2 occurrences in the distant past, while the US has a new shooting spree every month...what was your point again?
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13, Nov 1990. Aramoana, New Zealand. Shooter kills 13 people
9, Feb 1997. Raurimu, New Zealand. Shooter kills 6
What a wonderful place
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Coombz its a little early to be trolling this hard, put the stinky bait away and have some decency.
for someone that tries to come off as more superior than Americans you sure do spend an awful lot of time tring to put the US down.
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I think the real question is what's unique about the United States. Events like these have become, sadly, almost commonplace here. There is obviously, like or not, something deeply wrong with the American psyche that isn't present in practically any other western, civilized society in the world. Is it that our media is all that different? Is it because we've departed more from 'family values' than European cultures have? Is it just because it's easier to get guns? Is it because we glorify violence and going out with a bang more than anyone else?
Or it's something else?
In American and now in British culture individuals are encouraged to succeed and strive for wealth.
The media encourages this ideal at every opportunity.
The majority of individuals are given a ideal which for the majority is unobtainable.
The inability of the of the individual to realise that mediocracy is the lot of the majority.
The result is mental instability and a violent out burst to this problem.
In education today the student is informed on a regular basis that his viewpoint and opinions are valued, this again causes problems when this falsehood is realised.
Mental issues are increasing in Western society due to this problem.
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Mental issues are increasing in Western society due to this problem.
I think we've always been crazy, but have had more outlets for that in the past, or we've been more willing to use those outlets. Nowadyas people hole up in thier house instead of getting out.
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I think all of you guys need a hug.
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Police/security personnel needing to be present and on guard in schools is actually a ridiculous idea :)
But you already seem to need it, and have it, in some high schools and colleges :aok I guess it's just a ridiculously f'ed up society you live in
What a wonderful place
The first school shooting was in England doofus....guess you chaps are still showing we yanks how to screw things up. How's the queen? She still getting your tax money in addition to what you pay your government. No wonder the Irish wouldn't pee on you Englishman if your heads were on fire.
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*raises hand*
the queen pays tax now
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:headscratch:
Cant remember hearing of a school shooting in the UK before Dunblane in 1996, the first (of about 100 separate incidents) in the US appears to have been in 1764 ...
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:headscratch:
Cant remember hearing of a school shooting in the UK before Dunblane in 1996, the first (of about 100 separate incidents) in the US appears to have been in 1764 ...
Yeah but we were subjects to the crown at that point sooo.... Why is this convo even happening its dumb and shows no tact.
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Cousin of a friend of a friend... Small world.
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Chase-Kowalski&lc=7075&pid=161772148&mid=5344057
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:headscratch:
Cant remember hearing of a school shooting in the UK before Dunblane in 1996, the first (of about 100 separate incidents) in the US appears to have been in 1764 ...
That was a Brit shooter that got sent to Australia but with a musket?
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"11-year-old Utah boy jailed for bringing gun to Kearns school
(Pistol brought to school » Boy said he wanted to protect self, friends from 'Connecticut style incident.')"
The Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55489019-78/horsley-gun-kearns-district.html.csp (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55489019-78/horsley-gun-kearns-district.html.csp)
bewildering ...
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The first school shooting was in England doofus....guess you chaps are still showing we yanks how to screw things up. How's the queen? She still getting your tax money in addition to what you pay your government. No wonder the Irish wouldn't pee on you Englishman if your heads were on fire.
The IRA blew my windows out and planted a bomb outside a McDonalds on Mothers day killing a 6 year old and a 15 year old in my town.
I knew the girl who was holding the six years hand at the time, she was a quiet girl funny that :old:
16 other kids were injured as well.
But that's enough about that. :old:
They also shot a copper 2 days before as well.
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The IRA blew my windows out and planted a bomb outside a McDonalds on Mothers day killing a 6 year old and a 15 year old in my town.
I knew the girl who was holding the six years hand at the time, she was a quiet girl funny that :old:
16 other kids were injured as well.
But that's enough about that. :old:
They also shot a copper 2 days before as well.
I never said I agree with their methods but after this thread, I am a closer to understanding it. The scots put up with it because they kicked your tulips already and got a wee bit of the throne in exchange for living north in confident peace. Sean Connery and Bono are much cooler than any Englishman, which I offer as proof. :neener:
EDIT: except for Batfink......he can hang with Bono or Connery without a doubt
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Morgan Freeman never said this .... FYI
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Too many insulting comments being made, indicating this thread is done.