Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Changeup on December 25, 2012, 10:33:36 AM
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this guy still found a way to attack children at a school
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/chinese-man-drives-car-students-injuring-13-18059760
I'm not sold on big changes to gun laws...some needed changes? Yep....big changes, nope. If someone wants to do harm, they'll find a way.
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They also had a man in China stab 22 (?) children the same day as the Sandy shooting.
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They also had a man in China stab 22 (?) children the same day as the Sandy shooting.
But wait....if we control guns, we control mass murders right? That's where I get a little concerned. Common sense begins to take over...ie, Timothy McVay.
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They also had a man in China stab 22 (?) children the same day as the Sandy shooting.
Look at the respective death counts of those events....
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Japan has very strict gun control laws and murder is lower than most major cities in the US. like i said blaming guns or lack of is dumb without looking at the general population.
Midway
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Look at the respective death counts of those events....
Look at the fact that the shooter at Sandy has been taken to the gun range and taught how to use his weapon of choice. :eek:
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Look at the respective death counts of those events....
Look at what it teaches...the next guy will do it better and more effectively. Does it matter? Events like these unfortunately teach lost souls the "hows" regardless of body count. First guy used a knife and wasn't successful so the next guy used a car. We all underestimate those who are contemplating such things...we ex-military a little less than others but that's a purposeful remnent of training. If the Navy taught me one thing it was that a focused, determined person will find a way to get it done...and I never, ever found that an arguable point from any person with the common sense of a toad.
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From the ABC News web site article on the killer of Fireman responding to a house fire:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/webster-gunman-bushmaster-left-chilling-note/story?id=18062121
"Armed with a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver, a Mossman 12-gauge shotgun, and the Bushmaster, Spengler killed two firefighters, and injured two more as well as an off-duty police officer at the scene.
As a convicted felon, Spengler could not legally own a firearm and police are investigating how he obtained the weapons.
One firefighter tried to take cover in his fire engine and was killed with a gunshot through the windshield, Pickering said.
Responding police engaged in a gunfight with Spengler, who ultimately died, likely by a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.
As police engaged the gunman, more houses along Lake Ontario were engulfed, ultimately razing seven of them."
A convicted felon with weapons....
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He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer before this.
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From the ABC News web site article on the killer of Fireman responding to a house fire:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/webster-gunman-bushmaster-left-chilling-note/story?id=18062121
"Armed with a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver, a Mossman 12-gauge shotgun, and the Bushmaster, Spengler killed two firefighters, and injured two more as well as an off-duty police officer at the scene.
As a convicted felon, Spengler could not legally own a firearm and police are investigating how he obtained the weapons.
One firefighter tried to take cover in his fire engine and was killed with a gunshot through the windshield, Pickering said.
Responding police engaged in a gunfight with Spengler, who ultimately died, likely by a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.
As police engaged the gunman, more houses along Lake Ontario were engulfed, ultimately razing seven of them."
A convicted felon with weapons....
Due to the nature of the crime is weird to me. He did the same thing as the famous session drummer Jim Gordon (Derek & The Dominoes, Harry Nilsson, The Everly Brothers, etc). Both used the Ball Peen Hammer. This guy was out after 18 and Jim Gordon is still in the Mental Institution? I believe our Penal System is inconsistent, regardless of State Laws.
I agree with Ink. If you murder or Rape someone.....you may cease breathing Oxygen.
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Look at what it teaches...the next guy will do it better and more effectively. Does it matter? Events like these unfortunately teach lost souls the "hows" regardless of body count. First guy used a knife and wasn't successful so the next guy used a car. We all underestimate those who are contemplating such things...we ex-military a little less than others but that's a purposeful remnent of training. If the Navy taught me one thing it was that a focused, determined person will find a way to get it done...and I never, ever found that an arguable point from any person with the common sense of a toad.
China has had a massive spree of school attacks over the past few years. This isn't new for China. Something like 22 attacks.
"The first guy used a knife and wasn't successful so the next guy used a car."... and continued to be unsuccessful. There seems to be a pattern in attacks where firearms aren't involved, wouldn't you agree?
There have still been fewer dead children from all of these Chinese attacks in the past two years combined than what happened in Connecticut.
Believe it or not, guns with high capacity magazines seem to allow a person to kill people more efficiently than blunt objects and knives. Call it a hunch, but I think this may be why soldiers aren't issued swords as combat weapons anymore.
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Believe it or not, guns with high capacity magazines seem to allow a person to kill people more efficiently than blunt objects and knives. Call it a hunch, but I think this may be why soldiers aren't issued swords as combat weapons anymore.
Thanks for the news flash. No one put that together before before you stated the obvious. A ban will stop all future mass killngs because no one will use an illegal weapon to commit these crimes. "Assault weapons" and high capacity magazines will cease to be available and we'll all live happily ever after. After, we have the goverment to take care of us.
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http://www.vincenttimes.com/crime/2012/12/03/11695/man-kills-self-shoots-father-in-the-head-with-an-arrow-in-wyoming/
Man kills self, shoots father in the head with an arrow in Wyoming
Christopher Krumm, 25, shown in an early photo, killed his father James, 56, with a high-powered bow and arrow at the Casper College in Wyoming, before stabbing himself to death. He also killed his father’s live-in partner Heidi Arnold in their home.
The town of Casper, Wyoming bear witness to a gruesome suicide and murder involving a 25-year-old man, his father, and his father’s live-in girlfriend as the weekend closed in.
Before killing himself, Christopher Krumm stormed through the classroom of his father who teaches at a Wyoming College Friday morning and shot him in the head with a high-powered bow and arrow device. The younger Krumm came from his father’s home and stabbed to death his live-in girlfriend, Heidi Arnold.
James Krumm, 56, struggled with his son before he died and managed to let his entire class exit the room, shielding them from possible injury.
It was a deed that the police called “heroic”, a report from Fox News said.
Justin Smith, spokesman of Casper police said that there were reportedly six students inside the classroom who were all unharmed.
James was a computer science professor at the state’s Casper College, and lived with his 42-year-old partner a math teacher in the same college, who suffered from multiple stab wounds. They live two miles away from the college.
According to the police, Arnold’s body was discovered in the street gutter and was believed to be attacked outside their home, Fox reported.
After receiving a dozen calls, the police responded and found Christopher “taking his last breaths” losing blood from the stab wounds that were said to be inflicted by him, while James was already dead, the report said.
One of the college students, Andra Charter, 20, said that she heard a girl screaming that “somebody was stabbing Mr. Krumm!”
Investigation is still ongoing as to the motivation of the killing which the police believe was done solely by the younger Krumm.
Police are also left baffled with what went wrong with the father-son relationship, or if there was any that could have prompted the killing.
According to reports, Christopher stabbed himself after shooting his father with the arrow and then afterwards stabbed his father in the chest when the older Krumm wrestled with his son in the room.
Police secured the campus from outsiders while they inspected the school grounds.
Casper Police chief Chris Walsh said that James’ actions were heroic and that the courage he displayed “was absolutely without equal”.
According to the police, Christopher managed to secure the bow and arrow, reportedly used for hunting, while he entered the campus covering it with a blanket. Walsh continued that James’ son was carrying big knives along with him, the report said.
The investigators said that Christopher came from Connecticut and had driven to Wyoming staying at a local hotel, and inquiries showed that he had not police records in the past.
Authorities also searched the younger Krumm’s Connecticut home, according to Vernon police Sgt. Timothy O’Connor, who added that he was not privy of the results of the search.
He conferred that whatever was found would be referred to Wyoming police as it is an active investigation, the report said.
James Krumm and Arnold’s neighbour Heather Meier said that she and her 7-year-old saw Arnold’s body outside their home coming from school, but said that they immediately went inside “shut the curtains… mind our own business”.
The couple’s co-instructor, Kevin McDermott, who said he knew both well, said that James and Arnold were “well-liked” in school, among students and co-teachers. He spoke of James’ kindness and the respect he got from his students.
One of Arnold’s students in pre-calculus Chris Unruh, 18, also spoke positively of his instructor, saying that Arnold “cared about her students”.
The college building where the crime occurred remained secured, and the campus quiet with few activities going on, over the weekend, while a security guard, methodically allowed students to get back their belongings left, the Fox News report continued.
Casper College is one of the seven community colleges in Wyoming. According to Fox News, the college is expected to have a candlelight vigil and memorial service by Tuesday.
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IDK about you, but I'd rather just be shot in the head with a gun than take an arrow to the head and then get stabbed to death....
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Thanks for the news flash. No one put that together before before you stated the obvious. A ban will stop all future mass killngs because no one will use an illegal weapon to commit these crimes. "Assault weapons" and high capacity magazines will cease to be available and we'll all live happily ever after. After, we have the goverment to take care of us.
Well that certainly seems to be the case elsewhere, at least it doesn't happen almost regularly. I think that's a pretty significant plus.
I mean if you pretend the world doesn't exist and ignore all precedent you can say that if stricter restrictions are placed on the ownership of firearms the US would plunge into mass hysteria and we would all be slaughtered by whoever and whatever. However if you open the blinds a little bit and look across the street it doesn't seem to work that way.
IDK about you, but I'd rather just be shot in the head with a gun than take an arrow to the head and then get stabbed to death....
Probably, but lucky for everyone else he didn't walk in with an AR 15 and gun down half the people in the room
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As had been a firefighter before, that story is just sad beyond words. The US justice system need a complete reworking and needs to be more strict.
Anyone that willfully commits murder that is not considered as self defense, but is committed with the sole purpose to take an innocent life for self enjoyment should be an instant death sentence. Being mentally challenged would no longer be a get out of jail free card. You commit murder with intent, you will die.
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Probably, but lucky for everyone else he didn't walk in with an AR 15 and gun down half the people in the room
Or any gun, even a revolver with 6 rounds. If your unstable enough to want to kill your own father, then the less power you can get your hands on the better. That father, though wounded by an arrow was able to hold off his son because there was only a knife involved.
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Well that certainly seems to be the case elsewhere, at least it doesn't happen almost regularly. I think that's a pretty significant plus.
I mean if you pretend the world doesn't exist and ignore all precedent you can say that if stricter restrictions are placed on the ownership of firearms the US would plunge into mass hysteria and we would all be slaughtered by whoever and whatever. However if you open the blinds a little bit and look across the street it doesn't seem to work that way.
Like Mexico where civilian gun ownership is banned? Or are you pointing at China where you are shot in the head for speaking out against the government? I love how you think of yourself as enlightened and assume or imply that I'm some ignorant sap. There are millions of weapons and magazines in circulation and you honestly think that taking them away from law abiding citizens will create some Utopian society. Good luck with that. How many of your rights are you willing to give up to the goverment by the way? Where do you draw the line?
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Guys, lets not feed on each other like the media feeds on the bad guys. Merry Christmas
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Like Mexico where civilian gun ownership is banned? Or are you pointing at China where you are shot in the head for speaking out against the government? I love how you think of yourself as enlightened and assume or imply that I'm some ignorant sap. There are millions of weapons and magazines in circulation and you honestly think that taking them away from law abiding citizens will create some Utopian society. Good luck with that. How many of your rights are you willing to give up to the goverment by the way? Where do you draw the line?
Or nearly every other functional society where there are heavy restrictions on what kind of firearms can be owned and by who.
Or you can look at the other countries and former countries where the widespread civilian ownership of firearms didn't stop widespread calamity, or made it worse.
I'm a gun owner and I shoot guns recreationally. I don't own any semi-autos but I have interest in it and I have friends that I go shooting with that own semi autos and high capacity magazines and I've had plenty of fun shooting those guns. But I really don't think the passing enjoyment of spitting 30 rounds through an AK in a minute is really worth the lives of all of the people who have been massacred in the past year and I don't think that if the government 'comes for me' or whatever that it will make any difference what I'm armed with, considering backward Middle Eastern militaries have been putting down rebels with RPG-7s and full auto AKs for years now.
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China has had a massive spree of school attacks over the past few years. This isn't new for China. Something like 22 attacks.
"The first guy used a knife and wasn't successful so the next guy used a car."... and continued to be unsuccessful. There seems to be a pattern in attacks where firearms aren't involved, wouldn't you agree?
There have still been fewer dead children from all of these Chinese attacks in the past two years combined than what happened in Connecticut.
Believe it or not, guns with high capacity magazines seem to allow a person to kill people more efficiently than blunt objects and knives. Call it a hunch, but I think this may be why soldiers aren't issued swords as combat weapons anymore.
You missed the point. They will find a way and the Chinese epidemic of school killings is an example but that doesn't suit your argument. Ok, your arguement is that stricter gun laws will disable future mass killers access to weapons or weapon systems that would allow them to be more accurate and lethal. Those would be, in no order of importance: fertilizer, steel, iron,....oh hell, I'm not going to do this, lol. You have chosen high capacity weapons.
You sir, are floating in a sea of crap and have chosen to look out of the boat and say, "I don't like that turd...that turd pizzes me off....I'm going to change that turd". WADR, looking across the street is myopic in every sense of the word regarding gun laws. Having worked with things that go boom in my past life, you cannot ignore that turd either...or the mass murderer that chooses to commit his crimes one at a time, or the serial rapist that chokes his victims to death after committing his vile act. To believe that changing the gun laws so completely would stop or even slow this kind of thing down assumes people are too stupid to find other ways. I choose not to live in that world because that world facilitates my own victimization. No thank you.
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-28.jpg)
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You missed the point. They will find a way and the Chinese epidemic of school killings is an example but that doesn't suit your argument. Ok, your arguement is that stricter gun laws will disable future mass killers access to weapons or weapon systems that would allow them to be more accurate and lethal. Those would be, in no order of importance: fertilizer, steel, iron,....oh hell, I'm not going to do this, lol. You have chosen high capacity weapons.
You sir, are floating in a sea of crap and have chosen to look out of the boat and say, "I don't like that turd...that turd pizzes me off....I'm going to change that turd". WADR, looking across the street is myopic in every sense of the word regarding gun laws. Having worked with things that go boom in my past life, you cannot ignore that turd either...or the mass murderer that chooses to commit his crimes one at a time, or the serial rapist that chokes his victims to death after committing his vile act. To believe that changing the gun laws so completely would stop or even slow this kind of thing down assumes people are too stupid to find other ways. I choose not to live in that world because that world facilitates my own victimization. No thank you.
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-28.jpg)
Luckily, you don't have to assume anything since you can just observe what happens in other countries. I don't know if people choose to believe that the rest of the world doesn't exist or that societies deal with mass school killings on a regular basis everywhere. But that's just not true. I guess in other societies with a lot of social turmoil and unrest people try, but they pretty much always fail, and I'd rather live in a world where mass murderers try and fail than one where they're allowed to do whatever, because "why try and stop them or make it harder".
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"why try and stop them or make it harder".
Yes, that's what's being advocated by people not wanting to give up more of their rights to a corrupt government.
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Luckily, you don't have to assume anything since you can just observe what happens in other countries. I don't know if people choose to believe that the rest of the world doesn't exist or that societies deal with mass school killings on a regular basis everywhere. But that's just not true. I guess in other societies with a lot of social turmoil and unrest people try, but they pretty much always fail, and I'd rather live in a world where mass murderers try and fail than one where they're allowed to do whatever, because "why try and stop them or make it harder".
You aren't making an argument. Please don't say that you KNOW what goes on in other countries like you've lived among murderers in those countries. You are limited to what you read and what our media allows you access to. You're trying to appeal to my emotion on this matter by employing argumentum ad hominem (saying backhandedly that I'm ignorant of what goes on around the globe). Without any detail because its really no ones business but mine, what I've seen people do to each other in the parts of the world that I have been is beyond deplorable...its at the very least as bad as the school shooting and at worst, 5 times as bad by body count alone. Failed attempts defined by lower body counts doesn't = successfully coralling the problem. This would mean that a higher body count = better preparation which is making my point. Where someone wills, there is most certainly a way.
You seem cerebrally pliable by laws that are available in other countries and how vogue their foresightedness seems to be by virtue of a lack of success in the attempted atrocities. The short list of those forward-thinking countries are China, Russia, France, England...et al. With a few exceptions, they are rooted in socialism (for the Brits here on the BBS, please note I said with few exceptions). You may want to check your boat because the sea of poo your floating in is beginning to leak....better start pumping.
Make an argument and we can enjoy an uptempo, lively discussion. Use a basically socialist model for how our citizens RTBA should be controlled (I say controlled for lack of a better word describing the limitations that would be placed on them by drastically changing gun laws) and we will have to move on. I hope that won't be the case because the discussion is timely, necessary and educational. Remember that our society is free and the current constitutional protection is the right for every citizen to bear arms. It doesn't say limiting the capacity or controlling the cyclic rate of those arms. HINT:
- indepth Background checks
- Voluntary gun buybacks
-resale laws that force sellers to register the sale or its a felony (or something)
-Any higher degree of pre-purchase accountability that is supported BY LAW ENFORCEMENT officers...not politicians.
:D
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Like Mexico where civilian gun ownership is banned? Or are you pointing at China where you are shot in the head for speaking out against the government? I love how you think of yourself as enlightened and assume or imply that I'm some ignorant sap. There are millions of weapons and magazines in circulation and you honestly think that taking them away from law abiding citizens will create some Utopian society. Good luck with that. How many of your rights are you willing to give up to the goverment by the way? Where do you draw the line?
mexico doesnt ban guns for the civilian population. It is actually in the constitution that civilians are allowed to own guns. I have posted links to it many times. I remember going with my uncles to buy guns when I was a child. they do ban some guns that are reserved for the military, but of course you can still buy them on the street.
the myth that mexico bans guns is just that a myth.
midway
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http://www.top5ofanything.com/index.php?h=db8a4490
Gun laws don't help.
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Never mind...
I'll resist the urge.
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Okay Skuzzy step back take a deep breath and count to ten. If that doesn't work may I suggest taking some Imitrex and call it a night. Changeup why man WHY Skuzzy on a diffrent thread was talking about whipping out this
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1csgFkjOKPp5X4ZhDvtcvZFML0Xn72S03SV8NzqpBQ4SF7E6lrQ)
The only issue i have will be the person who comes in here, and starts to make the thread into a 'gun control' thread. That is strictly political and so that person will get suspended from the board, send me a threatening email, terminate his account and send me another threatening email and then we will have lost a customer, because of me. Yes, it will be my fault.
I am tempted to lock it just to prevent the above from happening.
Well maybe not the ban hammer but hate to see bad things happen to good people due to a laps of stupidity.
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Or nearly every other functional society where there are heavy restrictions on what kind of firearms can be owned and by who.
Or you can look at the other countries and former countries where the widespread civilian ownership of firearms didn't stop widespread calamity, or made it worse.
I'm a gun owner and I shoot guns recreationally. I don't own any semi-autos but I have interest in it and I have friends that I go shooting with that own semi autos and high capacity magazines and I've had plenty of fun shooting those guns. But I really don't think the passing enjoyment of spitting 30 rounds through an AK in a minute is really worth the lives of all of the people who have been massacred in the past year and I don't think that if the government 'comes for me' or whatever that it will make any difference what I'm armed with, considering backward Middle Eastern militaries have been putting down rebels with RPG-7s and full auto AKs for years now.
So enjoy the guns you have and allow the rest of us law abiding Citizens & Gun Owners to still make that choice. The beauty of the 2nd Amendment, is "Choice". If you choose to arm yourself, great. If you choose to not arm yourself, great. Just live with your choice and let it end there. I own a USP 45, Sig 30-06 and a .22 bolt action Youth Henry for my 11 year old. But I will defend the Rights of ANY Law-Abiding Citizen to own an AR, AK, or whatever else they legally own. Why? Because if Law-Abiding Gun Owners don't stick together, it is all for naught.
Just the same as I was a Ducks Unlimited member for several years and have never even gone Duck Hunting. Why? Because I felt it was important at the time to channel funds to ensure Duck Hunters here in the US had proper wetlands and duck populations.
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Okay Skuzzy step back take a deep breath and count to ten. If that doesn't work may I suggest taking some Imitrex and call it a night. Changeup why man WHY Skuzzy on a diffrent thread was talking about whipping out this
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1csgFkjOKPp5X4ZhDvtcvZFML0Xn72S03SV8NzqpBQ4SF7E6lrQ)
Well maybe not the ban hammer but hate to see bad things happen to good people due to a laps of stupidity.
Dear Skuzzy:
Even though ignorance is not an excuse, I didn't happen to catch the warning. With indifference to Recondo's poor use of the phrase, "laps of stupidity" (meaning running around of stupidity), I might endear myself to you for a LAPSE IN JUDGEMENT and throw myself at your mercy for engaging in a thread that could end up being political as opposed to simply stating personal views. I believe there is a difference being that in the context of this thread, the only political affiliation are constitutional rights and those aren't arguable. That being said, I have stated my views on this issue and no longer have any other arguments to make, lol.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter,
Your good friend Changeup.
EDIT: Recondo - Think he bought it? I didn't think so either....
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Hey I tried man.
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If you don't like the guns, move to some place where the laws fit your idea of a nice community. Send us a card when you find your utopia..................
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Sooo, they ban extended mags and semi-autos. Say, just say, it doesn't work. They'll admit they were wrong and legalize them?
Also, spent some time in Mexico..IIRC any 'military used' ammo or weapons used w/same are illegal..ie:.45 acp, 223, .308...etc
That country..? Switzerland? requires most citizens to have fully auto, hi-cap mag, rifle in their home ..with ammo.Of course to vote you must have a sword as well. Understand Austria allows pretty much same as here.
Australia had huge mandatory buy-back few years back, but guns were very restricted prior to that, so that lacks comparsion...except they still have some pretty bad gun events..but no mass shootings since buy-back.
Maybe the problem isn't the guns..so that leaves?? The knee-jerk reaction? "We HAVE to do something..."
Hummm
JGroth
oh yeah.......in
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While everyone is arguing I will only add one thing.
If they ban them, I'll be a criminal. Plain and simple.
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Never mind...
I'll resist the urge.
Darn. I was hoping you would weigh in.
Could tell them the story of why Native Americans feared the Mtn Man AFTER he fired his flintlock.
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Darn. I was hoping you would weigh in.
My true thoughts on the matter could be construed as political, politically incorrect, and inciteful. The truth sometimes hurts.
I don't think we can actually come to any root causes within the rules established by HTC for their forums, so while I find the discussion interesting I also find it pointless. And regardless of what conclusion we come to, the legislature will do what they want anyway (which won't be anything meaningful or effective or politically unsafe). It'll be nothing, or more of the same.
I do wonder if the guy in China actually meant to kill the people he stabbed though, and I think that may skew the validity of comparing it to the mass killings in the US. The knife is a deadly weapon, and you'd almost have to try to not kill more people than he did based on the number he stabbed. Maybe actual killing wasn't his motivator? Maybe he just wanted attention?
Could tell them the story of why Native Americans feared the Mtn Man AFTER he fired his flintlock.
The tomahawk was more feared than the rifle back then.
And a NA was able to shoot 6 or more arrows in the time it took to shoot and reload the rifle once. And arrows could be dropped in behind a barricade, and could carry a flame...
You didn't carry a spare clip or magazine, you carried extra guns.
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True the hawk was deadly. I for one would not want to be cracked in the head by a well made rifle in close quarters.
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He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer before this.
Reminds me a little of the mass murder that happened down here..
The guy first shot his parents with a hunting crossbow. Then he used the assault rifle he stole while he was doing guard duty in the army to kill several more people. He had been planning for the event for some time and stealing ammunition from the firing range. He had been slashing peoples tyres for a couple of years before that and local people got tired of it and beat him up. He then proceeded to make a list of people he would kill as a revenge. At least one of those people knew they were on the list and was actually waiting for him with his own gun - but a pistol vs an assault rifle is not a very fair fight. Anyway we'll never know as the police caught him before he could get that far on the list. He got a ridiculous 20 years in prison for murdering several people in cold blood. Hurrah to the "justice" department.
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True the hawk was deadly. I for one would not want to be cracked in the head by a well made rifle in close quarters.
Would you prefer a Tomahawk to the head or a rifle butt if you had to choose? :devil
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That country..? Switzerland? requires most citizens to have fully auto, hi-cap mag, rifle in their home ..with ammo.
not quite. they have national service for all men, and voluntary for women. 80% pass basic training and are issued a personal assault rifle to be kept securely at home, but no ammo. the ammo is issued when required. you can buy ammo for these guns at ranges, but you have to use it at the range.
even including the military weapons, gun ownership is lower than the US. take out the mil weapons and it is considerably lower. civilian gun control is somewhat tighter than the US, and plenty of permits are rejected based on psych assessments. the swiss make a real effort to make sure nutjobs dont have access to guns.
it just occurred to me that the swiss may be the only country around that genuinely has a well-regulated militia ...