Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: skribetm on December 28, 2012, 04:06:50 PM
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Or did they?
Several nations, including Finland, Belgium, Britain and the Netherlands, ordered the Buffalo to bolster their struggling air arms, but of all the users, only the Finns seemed to find their Buffalos effective, flying them in combat with excellent results.[2] During the Continuation War of 1941–1944, the B-239's (a de-navalized F2A-1) operated by the Finnish Air Force proved capable of engaging and destroying most types of Soviet fighter aircraft operating against Finland at that time, achieving, in the first phase of that conflict, a kill-ratio of 32:1 (32 Soviet aircraft shot down for every B-239 lost) and producing 36 Buffalo "aces".[4]
also;
The top-scoring Buffalo pilot was Hans Wind, with 39 kills in B-239s.[53] Wind scored 26 of his kills while flying aircraft BW-393, while Eino Luukkanen scored seven more in the same aircraft. After evaluation of claims against Soviet actual losses, aircraft No. BW-364 was credited with 42½ kills in total by all pilots operating it, possibly making it the highest-scoring fighter airframe in the history of air warfare. The top scoring Finnish ace, Ilmari Juutilainen, scored 34 of his 94½ kills in B-239s, including 28 in BW-364.[54]
in comparison:
U.S. Navy and Marine F6F pilots flew 66,530 combat sorties and claimed 5,163 kills (56% of all U.S. Navy/Marine air victories of the war) at a recorded cost of 270 Hellcats in aerial combat (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1 based on claimed but not confirmed kills).[39]
ALL HAILZ ZEE FINNZ & BUFFALOEZ! :salute
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Brewster_B-239_%28BW-372%29_K-SIM_02.jpg/640px-Brewster_B-239_%28BW-372%29_K-SIM_02.jpg)
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HTC undermodelled the La7 ¡
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Or did they?
also;
in comparison:
ALL HAILZ ZEE FINNZ & BUFFALOEZ! :salute
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Brewster_B-239_%28BW-372%29_K-SIM_02.jpg/640px-Brewster_B-239_%28BW-372%29_K-SIM_02.jpg)
The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.
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To say it was "light" is a huge understatement.
If HTC ever add's the american versions,you will see how much they really were pigs. But they also had a TON of equipment in them the finnish brewster did not.
lack of a life raft, no pilot armor "or very little" arrester gear removed, and lots of other things here and there.
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I will guess that the Finns are simply better at getting the most out of any vehicle or gun.
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Fight the Brewster on it's terms and you will get you butt kicked. The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive.
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The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.
B-239 shot down quite a varied group of fighters, even a couple of Ju87s were among its victims.
ack-ack
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The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.
The Finns used the Brewster as a front-line fighter up until 1943.
That area of the front was considered a side-show by the Soviets but I really doubt the VVS units stationed there were making do with I-15's and I-16's into 1943.
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I16s are very formidable opponents even in a brew its hard to get a shot on a I16 if its a good pilot the i16 can almost outturn the brew
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Here's a few examples, more exhaustive list in the link.
Date Squadron Name Plane Kill(s) Status after mission
06.02.42 LeLv 24 Ahlstenin, J. BW-353 Landing accident; AC repairable; pilot okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 DB-3F Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 I-153 Okay
20.05.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 LaG-5 Okay
23.09.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-355 2.00 LaGG-3 Okay
25.06.41 LeLv 24 Ahola, L. BW-388 0.00 Crashed on takeoff; AC ooc; pilot okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-153 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-16 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 2.00 MiG-3 Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Tomahawk Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 LaG-5 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-153 Okay
05.06.43 KoeL Alho, M.A. BW-392 Crashed testing Humu design; pilot killed
29.01.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-389 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot badly hurt
06.04.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-354 1.00 SB Okay
08.06.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-394 1.00 Hurricane Force landed after damage in air fight; AC destroyed; pilot okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-381 Force landed after damage; AC destroyed; pilot okay
29.07.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-379 Ground loop; AC ooc; pilot okay
04.10.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-356 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
22.02.44 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-371 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot killed
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-386 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-366 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-384 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
16.05.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-383 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-370 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-370 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Dahl, J. BW-393 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.08.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-387 0.50 I-153 Okay
26.08.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-370 Landing accident; AC ooc; pilot okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-394 1.00 I-16 Okay
03.12.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-385 Shot down by AA; pilot killed
30.06.41 LeLv 24 Ginman, C. BW-392 1.00 SB-2bis Okay
27.09.41 LeLv 24 Ginman, C. BW-392 1.00 I-15bis Okay
24.04.43 LeLv 24 Halonen, E. BW-365 Force landed ; AC repairable; pilot okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-365 0.50 I-16 Okay
10.01.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-379 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-359 Shot down, pilot parachuted safely
25.10.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-393 1.00 Hurricane Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-373 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-354 1.00 LaG-5 Shot down, pilot killed
17.10.44 LeLv 26 Heleniuksen, O. BW-367 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24 Herrala, H. BW-368 1.00 I-16 Okay
03.10.44 LeLv 26 Hietala, O. BW-367 1.00 Ju-87 Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24 Hovi, M. BW-389 0.50 I-153 Okay
19.07.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-16 Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-380 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 2.00 I-153 Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 Hurricane Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-352 2.00 I-16 Okay
28.09.43 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-355 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
30.06.41 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 ARK-3 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
12.08.42 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-370 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 Spitfire Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-393 1.00 I-153 Okay
26.10.41 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
06.08.42 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Spitfire Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 2.00 LaGG-3 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
18.06.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
27.06.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 R-5 Okay
15.07.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-153 Okay
21.07.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-353 2.00 I-16 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 3.00 I-153 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-363 1.00 I-16 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 I-15bis Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 I-153 Okay
28.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
14.12.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.01.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Hurricane Okay
06.02.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 SB-2bis Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-153 Okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 Hurricane Okay
13.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 3.00 I-16 Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Spitfire Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
20.10.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 He-111 Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-368 1.00 Hurricane Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Spitfire Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-351 1.00 Tomahawk Okay
04.07.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 SB-2bis Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-363 1.00 I-153 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.50 I-16 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 2.00 I-153 Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Hurricane Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
02.07.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
04.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Hurricane Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 2.00 Hurricane Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 3.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 2.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Spitfire Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Spitfire Okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-16 Okay
02.03.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-364 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
25.05.43 LeR 3 Karu, V.J. BW-??? 1.00 He-111 Okay
...
http://www.warbirdforum.com/scores.htm
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Interesting its almost entirely fighter kills. Its probably the same story in AH.
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The Finns used the Brewster as a front-line fighter up until 1943.
It was used as a front-line fighter throughout the Continuation War and then against Germans in Lapland right to the end of 1944.
As for the aircraft types Brewster flew against in Finnish service...
Here are few aerial victories of the Brewster during the last summer of the Continuation War:
17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40
Source:
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih18/sih18kansi.jpg)
http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/ (http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/)
...it is also good to remember that many of these victories were scored while being significantly outnumbered and by the summer of '44, Brewsters obviously were starting to be rather war weary. Also the Soviet pilot training had improved by then and the pilots that were trained earlier but had survived the war to that point had gained plenty of experience.
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Finns are impressive, the brewster is not :rock
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I will guess that the Finns are simply better at getting the most out of any vehicle or gun.
lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe
I just wonder if all those kills have been checked against soviet losses?
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lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe
I just wonder if all those kills have been checked against soviet losses?
Yes. Finns actually claimed fewer kills than they got, the only nation to do so to the best of my knowledge.
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Here's a few examples, more exhaustive list in the link.
Date Squadron Name Plane Kill(s) Status after mission
06.02.42 LeLv 24 Ahlstenin, J. BW-353 Landing accident; AC repairable; pilot okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 DB-3F Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 I-153 Okay
20.05.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-351 1.00 LaG-5 Okay
23.09.43 LeLv 24 Ahokas, L. BW-355 2.00 LaGG-3 Okay
25.06.41 LeLv 24 Ahola, L. BW-388 0.00 Crashed on takeoff; AC ooc; pilot okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-153 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-16 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 2.00 MiG-3 Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Tomahawk Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 LaG-5 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 I-153 Okay
05.06.43 KoeL Alho, M.A. BW-392 Crashed testing Humu design; pilot killed
29.01.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-389 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot badly hurt
06.04.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-354 1.00 SB Okay
08.06.42 LeLv 24 Alvesalo, U. BW-394 1.00 Hurricane Force landed after damage in air fight; AC destroyed; pilot okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-381 Force landed after damage; AC destroyed; pilot okay
29.07.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-379 Ground loop; AC ooc; pilot okay
04.10.42 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-356 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
22.02.44 LeLv 24 Anttila, K. BW-371 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot killed
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-386 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-366 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.42 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-384 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
16.05.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-383 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-370 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Avikainen, O. BW-370 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Dahl, J. BW-393 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.08.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-387 0.50 I-153 Okay
26.08.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-370 Landing accident; AC ooc; pilot okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-394 1.00 I-16 Okay
03.12.41 LeLv 24 Elfving, H. BW-385 Shot down by AA; pilot killed
30.06.41 LeLv 24 Ginman, C. BW-392 1.00 SB-2bis Okay
27.09.41 LeLv 24 Ginman, C. BW-392 1.00 I-15bis Okay
24.04.43 LeLv 24 Halonen, E. BW-365 Force landed ; AC repairable; pilot okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-365 0.50 I-16 Okay
10.01.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-379 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-359 Shot down, pilot parachuted safely
25.10.42 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-393 1.00 Hurricane Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-373 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Heinonen, T. BW-354 1.00 LaG-5 Shot down, pilot killed
17.10.44 LeLv 26 Heleniuksen, O. BW-367 Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24 Herrala, H. BW-368 1.00 I-16 Okay
03.10.44 LeLv 26 Hietala, O. BW-367 1.00 Ju-87 Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24 Hovi, M. BW-389 0.50 I-153 Okay
19.07.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 I-16 Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-380 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 2.00 I-153 Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-353 1.00 Hurricane Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-352 2.00 I-16 Okay
28.09.43 LeLv 24 Huotari, J.A.A. BW-355 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
30.06.41 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 ARK-3 Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
12.08.42 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-370 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 Spitfire Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-393 1.00 I-153 Okay
26.10.41 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
06.08.42 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 I-16 Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Spitfire Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 2.00 LaGG-3 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 0.50 LaGG-3 Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24 Jarvi, T.T. BW-377 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
18.06.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
27.06.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 R-5 Okay
15.07.44 LeLv 26 Juurinen, A. BW-382 1.00 LaGG-3 Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-153 Okay
21.07.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-353 1.00 I-153 Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-353 2.00 I-16 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 3.00 I-153 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-363 1.00 I-16 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 I-15bis Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 I-153 Okay
28.09.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
14.12.41 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.01.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Hurricane Okay
06.02.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 SB-2bis Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-153 Okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 Hurricane Okay
13.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 2.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 3.00 I-16 Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Spitfire Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
20.10.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 He-111 Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-368 1.00 Hurricane Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 Spitfire Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-351 1.00 Tomahawk Okay
04.07.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 SB-2bis Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-363 1.00 I-153 Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.50 I-16 Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 2.00 I-153 Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Hurricane Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 MiG-1 Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 MiG-3 Okay
02.07.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
04.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Hurricane Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 2.00 Hurricane Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 3.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 2.00 I-16 Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-388 1.00 Pe-2 Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Spitfire Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 Spitfire Okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-16 Okay
02.03.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-364 1.00 Jak-1 Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24 Karhunen, J. BW-366 1.00 I-153 Okay
25.05.43 LeR 3 Karu, V.J. BW-??? 1.00 He-111 Okay
...
http://www.warbirdforum.com/scores.htm
Oh how I WISH we had even HALF of those planes listed as shot down by the Finns. :cry
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Oh how I WISH we had even HALF of those planes listed as shot down by the Finns. :cry
I show us as having six out of the sixteen, if I am allowed to count the La-5FN for the La-5.
We have:
I-16
La-5FN
P-40
Hurricane
Ju87
Spitfire
We don't have:
MiG-3
DB-3F
I-153
LaGG-3
Pe-2
Yak-1
SB
ARK-3
R-5
He111
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K/D ratio is not a measure of how good the plane is. The Finns managed that INSPITE of flying Brewsters, not because if it. They were simply much better pilots than the Russians the opposed, especially in the early 40's. The German aces also had a party on the eastern front in the early years, though in the case of the LW they really did have better planes. I also suspect that the better VVS pilots were sent to fight the Germans. Much of that changed by the end of 44' though.
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lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe
No amount of repeating will make this nonsense true.
(Last time Megalodon was at it: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html))
About Brewster's power settings from primary source data coming straight from manufacturer:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Powersetting.jpg)
Source: Brewster Aeronautical Corporation Report 350: Detail Specification for Model 239 Airplane Class VF
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K/D ratio is not a measure of how good the plane is. The Finns managed that INSPITE of flying Brewsters, not because if it. They were simply much better pilots than the Russians the opposed, especially in the early 40's. The German aces also had a party on the eastern front in the early years, though in the case of the LW they really did have better planes. I also suspect that the better VVS pilots were sent to fight the Germans. Much of that changed by the end of 44' though.
Well, I've seen quite a few comments from pilots who flew the F2A-1 and B-239 that paint it as a very agile fighter. It is the F2A-3 that was junk.
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K/D ratio is not a measure of how good the plane is. The Finns managed that INSPITE of flying Brewsters, not because if it. They were simply much better pilots than the Russians the opposed, especially in the early 40's. The German aces also had a party on the eastern front in the early years, though in the case of the LW they really did have better planes. I also suspect that the better VVS pilots were sent to fight the Germans. Much of that changed by the end of 44' though.
I for one am not a guy to hop on any bandwagon and I love to play the Devil's Advocate. The question begs of pilot quality: Were the Finn's that good or were the Soviets that bad? I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development. Training? Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie. Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement. Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about? Did they dump in some super juice in the fuel tank when no one was watching? I will give the Finn's the benefit of the doubt with the k/d ratio, it is impressive. But when supposedly the Buffalo was the bottom of the barrel in the PTO, ETO, and MTO, yet do so well up north in the frigid air over Finland one has to wonder was it the Finn's that were really that good or was it is the Soviets who were really that bad??? And... just how much effort would it take for HTC to add in the version, the version we all were expecting in the first place, to be added in to AH because in EW scenarios the Brewster has every advantage over the Zekes and little needs to be said about that. :headscratch:
Please do not assume that I do not respect the Finnish pilots for their achievements and sacrifices in protecting their country, I hold them in nothing but the highest regards.
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Thier flying success seems proportional to thier successes in rally, f1, and sniper victories.
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I seem to recall reading that it was the Finns who came up with the finger four formation.
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"20.10.42 LeLv 24 Juutilainen, E.I. BW-364 1.00 He-111 Okay"
Um ... Oops?
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I for one am not a guy to hop on any bandwagon and I love to play the Devil's Advocate. The question begs of pilot quality: Were the Finn's that good or were the Soviets that bad? I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development. Training? Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie. Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement. Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about? Did they dump in some super juice in the fuel tank when no one was watching? I will give the Finn's the benefit of the doubt with the k/d ratio, it is impressive. But when supposedly the Buffalo was the bottom of the barrel in the PTO, ETO, and MTO, yet do so well up north in the frigid air over Finland one has to wonder was it the Finn's that were really that good or was it is the Soviets who were really that bad??? And... just how much effort would it take for HTC to add in the version, the version we all were expecting in the first place, to be added in to AH because in EW scenarios the Brewster has every advantage over the Zekes and little needs to be said about that. :headscratch:
Please do not assume that I do not respect the Finnish pilots for their achievements and sacrifices in protecting their country, I hold them in nothing but the highest regards.
They are crazy, and drunk! It helps when fighting Russians. ;)
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lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe
That's not much of stretch. Growing up two of my friends had Chevy Chevelle's with 396 engines. Max stock HP was 375 IIRC. One was well over 450 HP while the older one was running a stock car modified engine at around 650 HP. Oddly, the one running 450 HP blew up while the other kept running.
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I seem to recall reading that it was the Finns who came up with the finger four formation.
wasnt that the germans?
Werner Mölders, in spanish civil war?
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lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe
I just wonder if all those kills have been checked against soviet losses?
In some cases they got credited more kills after Soviet records opened.
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I for one am not a guy to hop on any bandwagon and I love to play the Devil's Advocate. The question begs of pilot quality: Were the Finn's that good or were the Soviets that bad? I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development. Training? Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie. Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement. Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about? Did they dump in some super juice in the fuel tank when no one was watching? I will give the Finn's the benefit of the doubt with the k/d ratio, it is impressive. But when supposedly the Buffalo was the bottom of the barrel in the PTO, ETO, and MTO, yet do so well up north in the frigid air over Finland one has to wonder was it the Finn's that were really that good or was it is the Soviets who were really that bad??? And... just how much effort would it take for HTC to add in the version, the version we all were expecting in the first place, to be added in to AH because in EW scenarios the Brewster has every advantage over the Zekes and little needs to be said about that. :headscratch:
Please do not assume that I do not respect the Finnish pilots for their achievements and sacrifices in protecting their country, I hold them in nothing but the highest regards.
The finnish pilots were trained especially well on gunnery. It was stressed a lot in the training program. Also B&Z style fighting was successfully utilized from very early on.
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No amount of repeating will make this nonsense true.
(Last time Megalodon was at it: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html))
About Brewster's power settings from primary source data coming straight from manufacturer:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Powersetting.jpg)
Source: Brewster Aeronautical Corporation Report 350: Detail Specification for Model 239 Airplane Class VF
The finnish version did have 1000hp engine though: http://www.warbirdforum.com/winston.htm
The 44 F2A-1 series Brewsters bought by the Finnish Government had the 950 hp export version of the Wright Cyclone R-1820-G5 engine. The aircraft were packed into containers and they were shipped to Stavanger, Norway and from there by rail to Sweden. The final assembly was done at the Saab factory in Trollhättan.
Winston and Brewster Winston traveled to the Brewster factory at Long Island, NY and met the general manager Dayton T. Brown. On the next day he went to Roosevelt field with Burke to fly the Brewster. The new version had a 1000 hp Wright Cyclone engine and Finnish texts in the cockpit. The speed was in kilometers per hour and the altitude in meters. It had two .50 cal guns in the wings and one in the fuselage, where there also was a .30 cal gun for close range work. Best climb was at 130 kts, approach 80 kts and touchdown 72 kts.
The finnish mechanics also corrected the reliability problems of the engine by reversing piston rings after which the engine became extremely reliable.
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The finnish version did have 1000hp engine though: http://www.warbirdforum.com/winston.htm
Indeed it did. The very document I posted mentions it. That's why I posted it. I had underlined the mention about the Nominal Power Setting for another purpose. The next sentence mentions that the max. power output is 1000hp at sea level.
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I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development. Training? Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie. Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement. Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about?
I quite wouldn't use the wording that you used in your last question. But to answer it "yes" is far more correct answer than "no".
Here's a good article on Finnish fighter training: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/fintac-1.htm (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/fintac-1.htm)
Another good article: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/zimbo-01.htm (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/zimbo-01.htm) Col Richard "Zimbo" Lorentz - the creator of the Finnish Fighter Arm
Those articles should answer your questions very well.
I have question for you though. Why did you conclude that the training in Finland couldn't have been "in the fore front of aviation"? Is it because we are a small nation and because it is cold here during winters? I ask because it certainly didn't come from actually reading about the subject. :)
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I for one am not a guy to hop on any bandwagon and I love to play the Devil's Advocate. The question begs of pilot quality: Were the Finn's that good or were the Soviets that bad? I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development. Training? Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie. Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement. Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about? Did they dump in some super juice in the fuel tank when no one was watching? I will give the Finn's the benefit of the doubt with the k/d ratio, it is impressive. But when supposedly the Buffalo was the bottom of the barrel in the PTO, ETO, and MTO, yet do so well up north in the frigid air over Finland one has to wonder was it the Finn's that were really that good or was it is the Soviets who were really that bad??? And... just how much effort would it take for HTC to add in the version, the version we all were expecting in the first place, to be added in to AH because in EW scenarios the Brewster has every advantage over the Zekes and little needs to be said about that. :headscratch:
Please do not assume that I do not respect the Finnish pilots for their achievements and sacrifices in protecting their country, I hold them in nothing but the highest regards.
It was not like the Finns were superpilots and the Russians were the equivallent of two weeker number guys, but the quality disparity was likely high. It is not just how much you train your pilots, is it HOW you train your pilots and how you select them in the first place. If the Finns could select from the top 0.01% of their population and the Russian just took anyone that could sing the communist party anthem, you'd get a huge quality difference no matter how you train them.
Why are the Israeli pilots considered so good? The IAF gets first pick of all recruits and since in Israel service is obligatory, they effectively get to pick from the best potentials of the entire population (in countries with voluntary service who usually enlist? there is already a population bias there). There is also a very cruel filtering process and only few get to finish their training (less than 10% of those that started). The number of advanced training hours is perhaps high, but not exceedingly so relative to other airforces. It is the intensity and the level of training followed by very effective in-your-face debrief without any consideration towards anyone's ego. For example, the IAF insists on practicing multi-plane dogfighting at cannon ranges even though this is not likely to represent modern aerial combat. They consider it good general skills training for the pilots. When practicing actual tactics they usually set up very complicated scenarios. Any country that will follow that pattern will end up with a high quality airforce at the expense of size and expenses per combat AC.
So quality is difficult to compare since there are no objective parameters. The older the technology, the more was the emphasis on the individual skill of the pilots. In Finland vs. Russia I believe the quality made a huge difference. It was not in the genes, it was in the selection, training and tactics employed. The quality of the plane was a modifier on top of that.
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wasnt that the germans?
Werner Mölders, in spanish civil war?
I know wikipedia isn't the best source, but:
From Wikipedia's Finger Four article: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-four)
The formation was developed by several air forces independently in the 1930s. The Finnish Air Force adopted it during 1934-1935.[1] Luftwaffe pilots developed the formation independently in 1938 during the Spanish Civil War, and were the first to use it in combat.
This is the article Wikipedia references in support of that claim:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/FAFhist.htm
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"The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive."
The problem was not that it could not drive but if it could withstand the stress. The aforementioned Cpt Karhunen once got the BW in a high speed dive and upon pull-up the wing tips bent slightly upwards and stayed there and the plane had to be sent for repairs.
The interesting thing was that Karhunen said that the plane was a bit better to fly with bent wings... AFAIK that is a somewhat undiscovered field of aerodynamics as the wings are much easier and cheaper to manufature from straight spars so it is possible that such feature has not been even examined thoroughly.
-C+
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"The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive."
The problem was not that it could not drive but if it could withstand the stress. The aforementioned Cpt Karhunen once got the BW in a high speed dive and upon pull-up the wing tips bent slightly upwards and stayed there and the plane had to be sent for repairs.
The interesting thing was that Karhunen said that the plane was a bit better to fly with bent wings... AFAIK that is a somewhat undiscovered field of aerodynamics as the wings are much easier and cheaper to manufature from straight spars so it is possible that such feature has not been even examined thoroughly.
-C+
Modern airliners have upwards bent wingtips that are built to break up vorteces that otherwise would increase drag.
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I have question for you though. Why did you conclude that the training in Finland couldn't have been "in the fore front of aviation"? Is it because we are a small nation and because it is cold here during winters? I ask because it certainly didn't come from actually reading about the subject. :)
Perhaps it is the lack of notation in aviation history. I'm not seeing much in the name of aircraft development, air combat maneuvers, or pilot training that originated in Finland.
I will certainly read more on the subjects starting with the links you provided. Like I said I've not ever discounted the Finnish pilots or their feats, one just has to wonder though what were the primary factors in their trouncing the Soviets.
Also, one has to wonder how the Finn's would have fared if whatever reason the Soviets and Finn's fought alongside each other at least in the early stages of the war (Germans invades Sweden and Finland too?) and the Finns took their Brewsters up against the German 109's and 190's? Different story?
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They are crazy, and drunk! It helps when fighting Russians. ;)
Actually the Finns seemed to have been disciplined when flying. The late Mauno Fräntilä told us the Germans had been quite astonished because the Finns didn't take any alcohol with the dinner before leaving for home with their new 109's.
AH is a totally different thing, though. You seldom can witness a sober Finn in the cartoon skies. :cheers:
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It was not like the Finns were superpilots
I wouldn't bet on it, watched a lot of programmes about them in second world war very impressive, my favourite was them sneaking in and machine gunning a camp of Russians in the middle of the night then buggering off and the Russians starting to shoot each other :banana: :rock
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You seldom can witness a sober Finn in the cartoon skies. :cheers:
This.
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It was not like the Finns were superpilots.
Sure they were. It was all that ski jumping.
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Perhaps it is the lack of notation in aviation history. I'm not seeing much in the name of aircraft development, air combat maneuvers, or pilot training that originated in Finland.
Ok. Personally I'm rather careful in my assumptions on any subject I'm not very familiar of. Anyway, as far as combat tactics/training goes, I think one could say by definition that they were in the "fore front" in the world during the late thirties. One obvious example is the adaptation of finger four instead of vic formations as one of the first (if not the first) air forces in the world.
Also, one has to wonder how the Finn's would have fared if whatever reason the Soviets and Finn's fought alongside each other at least in the early stages of the war (Germans invades Sweden and Finland too?) and the Finns took their Brewsters up against the German 109's and 190's? Different story?
That is a very broad question with a big number of variables but as a quick general answer I'd have to say that they'd have clearly more difficult time against the German, yes.
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I know wikipedia isn't the best source, but:
This is the article Wikipedia references in support of that claim:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/FAFhist.htm
fair enough <S>
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The Finns were extremely well trained while the russians werent, to pharse mildly.
:salute to the heroes
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No amount of repeating will make this nonsense true.
(Last time Megalodon was at it: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html))
About Brewster's power settings from primary source data coming straight from manufacturer:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Powersetting.jpg)
Source: Brewster Aeronautical Corporation Report 350: Detail Specification for Model 239 Airplane Class VF
<Shrug> It's the exact same Motor in the F3F-3 ...some how the B-239 version it makes 50hp more power and does it indefinitely. Other planes <B-18, CW-21, P-36 and the DC-3 ... etc> the motor was in when tested didn't make the Estimated Max Hypothetical HP your #113a "It's a Guess" document has to say. :lol
Either way....the plane didn't fly around like a Bee on its max take off setting of (8-950hp) 100% of the time.. actually it didn't do it for more than 5 mins!
:cheers:
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<Shrug> It's the exact same Motor in the F3F-3 ...some how the B-239 version it makes 50hp more power and does it indefinitely.
So now you are saying that it should have 950hp but you were just saying in this thread that it should have only 850hp? Which is it? :lol
Hypothetical HP your #113a "It's a Guess" document has to say. :lol
If you start dismissing clear evidence without any real Brewster-specific evidence on your part, you are just making yourself look stupid. Pyro/HTC has the whole document and has modeled the plane accordingly. If you start calling Brewster Corp. on inflation of data you have to be able to prove it.
There could be number of reasons why an engine was run on different boost settings as the time went on. Some got their recommended power settings reviewed. Also 850hp is the continuous setting and as such is mentioned in the literature and in many Internet sources. This case seems to be very clear to more or less anyone but you.
Either way....the plane didn't fly around like a Bee on its max take off setting of (8-950hp) 100% of the time.. actually it didn't do it for more than 5 mins!
AH is full of planes that weren't supposed to run their max. military setting indefinitely either and they do it in AH. Brewster is no different in this respect. That is how HTC chose to model these planes in general. Deal with it.
This has all been gone over previously and yet you just doesn't seem to grasp it.
Anyway, this is my last word on the subject on this thread as you aren't gonna get any of it anyway and I'm sure the rest of the readers have enough data to make up their own minds.
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Perk it.
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HiTech - thanks for modeling the Finn Brewester as you have. :salute
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So now you are saying that it should have 950hp but you were just saying in this thread that it should have only 850hp? Which is it? :lol
If you start dismissing clear evidence without any real Brewster-specific evidence on your part, you are just making yourself look stupid. Pyro/HTC has the whole document and has modeled the plane accordingly. If you start calling Brewster Corp. on inflation of data you have to be able to prove it.
There could be number of reasons why an engine was run on different boost settings as the time went on. Some got their recommended power settings reviewed. Also 850hp is the continuous setting and as such is mentioned in the literature and in many Internet sources. This case seems to be very clear to more or less anyone but you.
AH is full of planes that weren't supposed to run their max. military setting indefinitely either and they do it in AH. Brewster is no different in this respect. That is how HTC chose to model these planes in general. Deal with it.
This has all been gone over previously and yet you just doesn't seem to grasp it.
Anyway, this is my last word on the subject on this thread as you aren't gonna get any of it anyway and I'm sure the rest of the readers have enough data to make up their own minds.
Yet you cant explain away the 5 other planes that had the same motor that never made the HP the Awesome Finns did. :lol
I would say it maybe had 85% of it original estimated HP....maybe :aok
Your motors were used and came from DC3's in where... India? When did Brewster AC corp test to get these figures since that model of the engine was never put in the Brewster? They Didn't.
That's why your document says Estimated. :lol
:cheers:
Edit: The Martin AC who actually tried the motors was not as generous:
http://www.marylandaviationmuseum.org/pdf/B10_spec.pdf (http://www.marylandaviationmuseum.org/pdf/B10_spec.pdf)
Same with the Grummie's
Function: Carrier-borne fighter
Fuel Type: Fuel Cap.:585 Fuel Cons.: 357 (89pr hour)
Load: 100kg
Veh. Wt.:empty: 1490kg max: 2175kg
Crew:1
MNT:7
Runway Min:take-off: 550m/landing: 550m type:paved (carrier)
Powerplant:1 x Wright R-1820-22 , 708kW (850hp)
Length: 7,06m Height: 2,84m Wingspan: 9,75m
Speed: max:425kph cruise:241kph stall:120kph Tr.Mov:964 Comb.Mov:42 (12)
Ceiling: 10120m Range: 1577km
Armaments:
2 x 7.62mm MG (2 x 500 rnds)
"Though the Navy could no longer dispute the fact the biplane was a lost cause, they still clung to the hope that, at least while the monoplane was being perfected, they could have a two-winged fighter of comparable performance. Since Grumman had been able to improve upon the F2F, they were asked to perform a similar task on the new ship. On March 6, 1936, Grumman received a contract for their fourth biplane fighter design, the XF4F-1. This one was to utilize an experimental Wright XR-1670 engine. Grumman suggested that the performance sought from the new design might be achieved by installing a supercharged 850 hp Wright R- 1820-22 on the F3F."
"With the F3F-1 now in service, and being well liked by its pilots, Grumman proposed that the last aircraft of the order be delivered with a more powerful Wright R-1820-22 Cyclone producing 850 hp."
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Alrighty then... it seems as if we have a few focus points in explaining how the Finns were able to do so well vs the Soviets during the Winter War.
First, lots of thought and planning went to "how" to combat a vastly numerically superior enemy. It appears as of the Finns decided to steer more towards winning the air war vs trying to go toe to toe in all aspects (namely scaling back/eliminating offensive bombing campaigns). Good call I do believe. So they focused on the air to air war (how to beat Soviet fighters and bombers).
Second, they determined that they needed to minimize casualties in order to maintain longevity of their forces. Best way to do that and still deal losses to the enemy is to minimize the Soviet's chance of attacking and maximize their own chances. In practice, it appears as if the "only from the six" angle of attacks were used against enemy fighters (maneuver until a firing solution is earned) and the split S dive attacks vs bombers to minimize defensive fire capability.
Third, a concentrated effort was made in gunnery training. And then some more effort was made in gunnery training. And then some more. Quite possibly more gunnery training and practice before combat than actually during combat.
I was able to find a few other online sources that echoed the articles posted by Wmaker. Lots of generalizations. Good stuff I had not read before. Now I know more of the "how".
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Powerplant:1 x Wright R-1820-22 , 708kW (850hp) is a typo it should read
Powerplant:1 x Wright R-1820-22 , 708kW (950hp)
That is all,
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Megalodon,
If the B-239 is hitting the correct speeds and climb rates, what does it matter if it is 950 or 1000?
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Megalo_something.....
I'm drunk,but you certainly make a good laughinstock! :lol
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Powerplant:1 x Wright R-1820-22 , 708kW (850hp) is a typo it should read
Powerplant:1 x Wright R-1820-22 , 708kW (950hp)
That is all,
Hmm, I thought our brew had the R-1820-G5 version. Megalodon,what rpm and manifold pressure are they using to get these ratings?
I'm not sure why anyone would be worried about the brew's performance,as long as you dont try to turn with it,it's not that difficult to defeat. A few days ago Rowdy1 was in the TA in his brew and I was flying the Ki84,he couldnt touch me until I started turning with him.
YMMV.
:salute
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Great discussion everyone, lots of valuable information learned.
It seems to me the the Brew is the Soviet's version of the Zero.
Only that they don't have the P-40 w/c could run away ..
Instead they turned and burned with their Yak-3, Mig-3 and LaGG-5.
They got spanked!
Finns flew the finger-4 and baited them by having two of those fly ahead and lower,
with the other two flying rear and higher.
It's peculiar though, Finns are Axis(allied w/ GER) but got an Allied plane(although "obsolete.")
I'm just pondering in amazement how the Finns managed the slaughter. 32:1 KDR is better than the F6-F record in the Pacific.
If the Marianas were a Turkey Shoot, what did the Soviets get?
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Megalodon,
If the B-239 is hitting the correct speeds and climb rates, what does it matter if it is 950 or 1000?
It means it has too little drag.
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Great discussion everyone, lots of valuable information learned.
It seems to me the the Brew is the Soviet's version of the Zero.
Only that they don't have the P-40 w/c could run away ..
Instead they turned and burned with their Yak-3, Mig-3 and LaGG-5.
They got spanked!
Finns flew the finger-4 and baited them by having two of those fly ahead and lower,
with the other two flying rear and higher.
It's peculiar though, Finns are Axis(allied w/ GER) but got an Allied plane(although "obsolete.")
I'm just pondering in amazement how the Finns managed the slaughter. 32:1 KDR is better than the F6-F record in the Pacific.
If the Marianas were a Turkey Shoot, what did the Soviets get?
Somewhere there is a list of what aircraft the Soviets lost in the Winter War. I've seen it but now cant find it. The I-15 and I-16 were much of the fighter force (the Buffalo was a contemporary fighter and certainly not inferior), and I don't remember which bomber suffered the largest losses (IL DB-3?), but either way what the Finns did was maximize their own ability to inflict damage and minimize their chances of taking casualties.
The ground war is fascinating to read about. The Finns were able to use company sized yet highly mobile forces to delay and ultimately stop entire divisions of Soviet ground forces from advancing. I know their "shoot-n-scoot" tactics were studied in depth by NATO forces and were put in to practice for use against the Soviets in case of a ground war in East Europe. My cousin graduated from West Point (US Army Military Academy) in 1996 and one of his classes was designed specifically on small unit tactics and the Finns and their tactics against the Soviets made up about half of the "how to" lessons (special mention was made of Wingate's Chindits vs the Japanese, too).
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<Shrug> It's the exact same Motor in the F3F-3 ...some how the B-239 version it makes 50hp more power and does it indefinitely.
:cheers:
When the Finns got their B-239's, they "fixed" the engines.
Basically a field-mod.
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Somewhere there is a list of what aircraft the Soviets lost in the Winter War. I've seen it but now cant find it. The I-15 and I-16 were much of the fighter force (the Buffalo was a contemporary fighter and certainly not inferior), and I don't remember which bomber suffered the largest losses (IL DB-3?), but either way what the Finns did was maximize their own ability to inflict damage and minimize their chances of taking casualties.
The Finns received their Brewsters too late for them to fly it in the Winter War.
They flew it in the Continuation War.
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BTW - there is an excellent article on the Brewster B-239 and why it performed so well in Finnish hands (and why it was a dog when flown by the USMC, the RAF, the Dutch and everyone else) in:
http://www.atomagazine.com/details.cfm?ProdID=78
But, in a nut-shell:
1) The Finns had a very professional air force
2) They had about a year to familiarize themselves with the B-239
3) The Soviet air force had gone through a massive purge which had totally f'ed it up
4) The Finnish front was considered a bit of a side-show at first as far as the Soviets were concerned
But by the time 1943 rolled around, the B-239 was clearly obsolete which is why they got 109G-2's from the Germans (they lightened those as well so performance was a little bit better than the German version...but they also "locked" the engine so that it was WEP-incapable - this was done in order to prolong engine life).
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<Shrug> It's the exact same Motor in the F3F-3 ...some how the B-239 version it makes 50hp more power and does it indefinitely. Other planes <B-18, CW-21, P-36 and the DC-3 ... etc> the motor was in when tested didn't make the Estimated Max Hypothetical HP your #113a "It's a Guess" document has to say. :lol
Either way....the plane didn't fly around like a Bee on its max take off setting of (8-950hp) 100% of the time.. actually it didn't do it for more than 5 mins!
:cheers:
*cough* Export version *cough* so it wasn't the same exact engine. The export version was rated for 1000hp end of story.
You're ignoring that the indefinately at 100% issue touches practically all planes in AH2 but that does not surprise me.
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*You're ignoring that the indefinately at 100% issue touches practically all planes in AH2 but that does not surprise me.
Very few aircraft in AH are allowed to run indefinitely at a 5 minute limit as the B-239 is. Most aircraft have their short duration limit restricted to 5 or 10 minutes.
For example, Merlin Spitfires in AH are allowed to run indefinitely on their 30 minute limit and 5 minutes on their 5 minute limit.
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The interesting thing was that Karhunen said that the plane was a bit better to fly with bent wings... AFAIK that is a somewhat undiscovered field of aerodynamics as the wings are much easier and cheaper to manufature from straight spars so it is possible that such feature has not been even examined thoroughly.
-C+
Very interesting. Perhaps a little dihedral made it a bit more stable? :lol
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Very few aircraft in AH are allowed to run indefinitely at a 5 minute limit as the B-239 is. Most aircraft have their short duration limit restricted to 5 or 10 minutes.
For example, Merlin Spitfires in AH are allowed to run indefinitely on their 30 minute limit and 5 minutes on their 5 minute limit.
F4F-4 is one, Spit14 is one and then there are plenty that run indefinitely at a 15min limit like several Allison birds.
This whole "discussion" is getting beyond silly. It is a modeling decision made by HTC and nothing Brewster-specific.
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F4F-4 is one, Spit14 is one and then there are plenty that run indefinitely at a 15min limit like several Allison birds.
This whole "discussion" is getting beyond silly. It is a modeling decision made by HTC and nothing Brewster-specific.
The unusual bit is that the Brewster and F4F get to run a 5 minute limit indefinitely, which is odd as it is their highest setting. The other aircraft that run indefinitely do so on a setting below their highest setting. While this does make their MIL a bit better than it should, it has no effect on their WEP or their WEP being limited. Full time WEP and indefinite MIL being better than it should are really two separate issues.
Functionally the Brewster and F4F (FM2?) get to run on WEP 100% of the time. Personally, if it were up to me I would give the Brewster and F4F a 5 minute WEP and reduce the MIL settings on the Spitfire Mk XIV and other aircraft with MIL settings based on short time limited settings.
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Personally, if it were up to me I would give the Brewster and F4F a 5 minute WEP and reduce the MIL settings on the Spitfire Mk XIV and other aircraft with MIL settings based on short time limited settings.
That's fine as an opinion but like I've said before it would cause more problems than it would solve. Where do you draw the line on what is a "short time limited setting" and what is not? Allisons would get to run their 15mins indefinately because they have 5min WEP-limit above it?
HTC has clearly chosen to time-limit which are clearly called/considered emergency power by the manufacturer/service branch. One can disagree with that choice all they like, that alone won't change it in anyway though.
Anyway, there's one inconsistency to this that I've noticed compared to the B239/Spit14/F4F-4 and that is a P-39Q which can't run its 5min take-off limit indefinitely in AH. And before anyone starts, that is by definition an inconsistency not the rule. So, to make it consistent with the rest of the planeset its max. non-WEP setting should be raised from 44.5HGin/1125hp to 50.5HGin/1200hp.
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I would go for 30 minute or longer settings for MIL.
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That's fine as an opinion but like I've said before it would cause more problems than it would solve. Where do you draw the line on what is a "short time limited setting" and what is not? Allisons would get to run their 15mins indefinately because they have 5min WEP-limit above it?
Easy, the 15min limit will over-heat the engine at a 1/3 of the rate that the current WEP does.
This means that you will not be able to fly at "full throttle" (in game terms: throttle forward, not hitting the WEP botton) 100% of the time. I would be all for it. My best guess: HT will object to this saying that this is an unneeded complication that will confuse players. He would not be entirely wrong.
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HT will object to this saying that this is an unneeded complication that will confuse players. He would not be entirely wrong.
Been my point all along regarding this whole issue.
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Very few aircraft in AH are allowed to run indefinitely at a 5 minute limit as the B-239 is. Most aircraft have their short duration limit restricted to 5 or 10 minutes.
For example, Merlin Spitfires in AH are allowed to run indefinitely on their 30 minute limit and 5 minutes on their 5 minute limit.
That's because they had WEP, brewster, Yaks etc. did not. Spits afaik couldn't run at 100% non-wep throttle indefinately either.
Anyway the ridiculousness of the brewster always makes me laff when I run down all the runstangs with it. They try all they can but I just hit X and catch them :neener:
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That's because they had WEP, brewster, Yaks etc. did not. Spits afaik couldn't run at 100% non-wep throttle indefinately either.
Anyway the ridiculousness of the brewster always makes me laff when I run down all the runstangs with it. They try all they can but I just hit X and catch them :neener:
Spits had different time limitations depending on the boost setting. What is used in AH for unlimited MIL was a 30 minute limit in the pilot's handbooks.
In actuality the Merlin could be run at WEP until it ran out of fuel as it was not an additive based WEP like MW50 on some German fighters.
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I think the Brewster receives too much credit for the fins abilities. The fins also conducted a good ground campaign against the Russians. The credit belongs to the Finish people and their training, etc... not the equipment.
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I think the Brewster receives too much credit for the fins abilities. The fins also conducted a good ground campaign against the Russians. The credit belongs to the Finish people and their training, etc... not the equipment.
Actually probably more to the horrible ability of the Russian commanders, troops and airmen from what I've learned! A few years later the more experienced Russians mauled the Finns!
Lets not forget, Brewsters vs mostly lumbering biplanes and I16s :aok
Not trying to take anything from the obvious heroism of the Finnish defenders!
JUGgler
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Lets not forget, Brewsters vs mostly lumbering biplanes and I16s :aok
Those biplanes weren't so lumbering.
Finnish B-239 ROE's against the Soviet biplanes like the I-153 was to BnZ because the biplanes could out-turn them.
So...the answer to the overmodeled B-239 is obvious...model the I-153! Then we'll get a plane that can turn inside the Brewster!
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A few years later the more experienced Russians mauled the Finns!
Of course VVS massively outnumbered FiAF during both wars. But per engagement basis and looking at the exchange ratios, the above is complete and utter nonsense.
Lets not forget, Brewsters vs mostly lumbering biplanes and I16s :aok
I-153 might be called many things but its hard to think of a poorer choice of word than "lumbering". The first inline engined monoplanes came to the front very early on.
You said "what you've learned". Doesn't seem that you've really learned anything at all. Maybe you should actually try and read something about the subject?
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Of course VVS massively outnumbered FiAF during both wars. But per engagement basis and looking at the exchange ratios, the above is complete and utter nonsense.
Hey, dont be this agressive. Noone, again, noone have ever questioned the honour of your country. (except Koski but thats an other story)
Jug only stated that the training, experience and maybe the equipment of the finnish troops and commanders were as utterly superior to the Red Army in '39 that they could defeat them in spite of the amazing difference between the numbers. Dont forget that Stalin just executed the whole military leadership in '37-'38. In '44, the Red Army grew even bigger, got modern equipment, their commanders had a load of combat experience, therefor they mauled the finnish army - just like the persians mauled Leonidas.
So chill, noone is trying to offend you or your nation, there is no need to make friends that quickly.
Thank You.
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It's easy to understand someone might get ticked off when your country fought at many times 10:1 odds and managed to stop the attackers.
Put it 1:1 and then let's see who'se mauling who.
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Hey, dont be this agressive.
I'm not being "aggressive". I'm just telling how it is.
As a side note: Considering your history on this BBS, "dont be this aggressive" coming from you is hilariously ironic to say the least. :lol
Noone, again, noone have ever questioned the honour of your country.
Hmm...where did I claim that someone did?
...therefor they mauled the finnish army - just like the persians mauled Leonidas.
Whatever "mauling" Soviets did, Finns/Germans (summer of '44) "mauled" more as per definition of the word:
tr.v. mauled also malled, maul·ing also mall·ing, mauls also malls
1. To injure by or as if by beating: The boxer mauled the other fighter. The critics mauled the novelist's first effort. See Synonyms at batter1.
2. To handle roughly: The package was mauled by the careless messenger.
3. To split (wood) with a maul and wedge.
The Soviet losses were far greater. And therefore I said he was talking utter nonsense, because he was.
So chill, noone is trying to offend you or your nation, there is no need to make friends that quickly.
I wasn't offended in anyway. I simply meant that he didn't have the faintest clue what he was talking about because that was pretty clear based on his post. I was calling duck a duck, that simple.
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<sigh>
<slowly moving away>
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There's the Karnak/Lusche way to explain stuff, then there's the AckAck/Wmaker way. Try not to be the latter folks. :old: :aok
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"Very interesting. Perhaps a little dihedral made it a bit more stable?"
Brewster already has dihedral and my point was that as the wings were bent the dihedral was actually increasing towards the tip of the wing. This is pretty much the same effect the sailplanes experience due to flexible wings. The "winglet" in the wingtip is an application of vortex control at wing tip but I'm not sure if the variable dihedral gains benefit from that. Maybe the stabilizing effect comes from front of the wing, not back. By this I mean that the pressure distribution at leading edge may be different, maybe it resembles even that of an elliptic wing.
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/data/planes/images/99_4_B.jpg
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"A few years later the more experienced Russians mauled the Finns!"
Well that claim does have some factual basis. In short: Mannerheim was not convinced that Germany could defeat USSR so he chose a careful political path and did not threaten Leningrad despite continuous German requests, this caused the lines to freeze at the old border which Finland hoped to maintain after peace negotiations. This policy, along with a big part of the troops being sent home, caused a decline in morale and readiness. The massed Russian onslaught later on generally did come as a surprise and it managed to penetrate several sloppily fortified defense lines and massive artillery, air support and tank concentrations helped a lot, along with a general increase in experience and cohesion of their military tactics and organization that Stalin had so severely wounded earlier. One reason for Russian attack for losing momentum was their rapid advance which stretched their support lines and also advancing to areas which were easier to defend for Finns. Also the Finnish forces became more concentrated near the new border along with reinforcements from occupied far reaches of Karelia being pulled back. If there was not the race for Berlin at hand the Russians would have probably tried to invaded Finland. However, there was already political pressure from western powers for USSR not to invade Finland as it had already done to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania so they chose to negotiate a peace (if you can call dictating the rigid terms "negotiating"). After all USSR could invade Finland later after the Germany was dealt with, but his was hampered by political climate post 1945 and Finland proved to be more useful political than military buffer between east and west, but the threat was still there for a couple of decades after the war.
There's irony that the heroic actions of German Gefectsverband Kuhlmey to stop the Russian onslaught in 1944 gave Finland a chance to negotiate for peace, something Germany absolutely did not want!
Well this is again an interesting BW thread. Anxiously waiting for the next one. :D
-C+
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In some cases they got credited more kills after Soviet records opened.
Please, point me in the direction of this information
Where B-239 claims are matched against soviet loss records?
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Well that claim does have some factual basis.
I have hard time seeing it considering the definition of the word and because the discussion was about FiAF/Brewster's performance against VVS.
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All the FiAF fighters with the exception of 109G were starting to have more difficult time with the newer Soviet types, there's no doubt about that. However, "mauled" they were not, not even close.
Anyway, Juggler's motive is pretty clear every time he brings up Brewster and that is to stir sh*t. It is very evident to anyone who does a quick BBS-search.
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Brewster should have a lower ENY.....just saying
#EZMode
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Brewster should have a lower ENY.....just saying
#EZMode
Just because it's a relatively easy plane to fly doesn't justify a lower ENY. Almost every plane is superior to it in almost all categories, save for turn. Frankly, if you get killed by a Brewster, it's pretty much your own fault. I guess that's why so many cry about it, they don't like to face the fact they messed up and it caused them to get shot down.
ack-ack
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Just because it's a relatively easy plane to fly doesn't justify a lower ENY. Almost every plane is superior to it in almost all categories, save for turn. Frankly, if you get killed by a Brewster, it's pretty much your own fault. I guess that's why so many cry about it, they don't like to face the fact they messed up and it caused them to get shot down.
ack-ack
Ya what he said!
:salute
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Just because it's a relatively easy plane to fly doesn't justify a lower ENY. Almost every plane is superior to it in almost all categories, save for turn. Frankly, if you get killed by a Brewster, it's pretty much your own fault. I guess that's why so many cry about it, they don't like to face the fact they messed up and it caused them to get shot down.
ack-ack
It's a scavenger's plane....some incidents yes pilots fault for letting it happen. Some times it's the dweebish flying style which hurri pilots used to use a lot...the turn HO rinse repeat, except Brews can change direction faster.
Why not? Why can't it be judged by the players that fly them? I think that in the MA some pilots fly it as a crutch...I got challenged one day to up it and not die...landed 6 quite easy 1v1s over Tank Town ozkansas. What's the same eny....LA5? I couldn't land 6 that easily. Make it 15 ENY...nobody will stop flying it but they wont get as much of a reward for kills in it.....
Wish we could make polls...
:salute
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If I understand Hitech correctly, ENY is designed to limit/encourage usage, nothing more. Is there a disproportionate usage of the Brewster?
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It's a scavenger's plane....some incidents yes pilots fault for letting it happen. Some times it's the dweebish flying style which hurri pilots used to use a lot...the turn HO rinse repeat, except Brews can change direction faster.
Why not? Why can't it be judged by the players that fly them? I think that in the MA some pilots fly it as a crutch...I got challenged one day to up it and not die...landed 6 quite easy 1v1s over Tank Town ozkansas. What's the same eny....LA5? I couldn't land 6 that easily. Make it 15 ENY...nobody will stop flying it but they wont get as much of a reward for kills in it.....
Wish we could make polls...
:salute
Oh yes I always like to HO blast jugs out of the sky with my mighty 4x.50 NOT! Hurri has hizookas.
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If I understand Hitech correctly, ENY is designed to limit/encourage usage, nothing more. Is there a disproportionate usage of the Brewster?
I'm not sure about that. I think there is a direct correlation between an aircraft's ability and its ENY value. There are some aircraft that have been neglected per say, such as the Spit 14. That bird needs an update for the ENY value does not match its ability, same goes for the perk price.
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I'm not sure about that. I think there is a direct correlation between an aircraft's ability and its ENY value. There are some aircraft that have been neglected per say, such as the Spit 14. That bird needs an update for the ENY value does not match its ability, same goes for the perk price.
Without commenting on the Spit14's perk price or ENY, a perk plane isn't a very good example for your argument. Of course a perk plane's effectiveness cannot be gaged by it's usage, it is perked after all and most cannot fly perk plane indefinitely without running out of perks.
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Without commenting on the Spit14's perk price or ENY, a perk plane isn't a very good example for your argument. Of course a perk plane's effectiveness cannot be gaged by it's usage, it is perked after all and most cannot fly perk plane indefinitely without running out of perks.
I believe a plane can be judged on its usage. The similarities between the Spit 14 and Spit 16 in performance are too close to not compare, and the ability of the Spit 16 to carry 1000 lbs of ord, roll just as well as the 190's, turn well, accelerate very well, etc, etc, and NOT get a perk applied to it. the Spit 16 is light and easy on the controls while the Spit 14 are like the Tyhoon.
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It's easy to understand someone might get ticked off when your country fought at many times 10:1 odds and managed to stop the attackers.
Put it 1:1 and then let's see who'se mauling who.
There are many ways to look at the odds (as you say).
Considering that a "beligerant" must have some form of "force superiority" over its intended victim, odds of 10-1 (which incidently I vehemently question) is something not to extreme. In this 10-1 figure you use, you fail to take into account any "force multipliers" the Finns may have enjoyed. Such as weather, terrain, lines of communication, familiarity of terrain, interior logistics, local population support, intelligence as in "correct information recieved from patriotic locals" etc etc.
All of these things are serious bennefits (force multipliers) for "DEFENDERS". Now lets take into consideration the "pathetic" state of soviet forces at that time. The purge of officers seriously degraded an already poor quality military. Historically the Russian military was never up to western standards and only momentarily thru out its history did it have very brief moments of moderate success. The great expanse of Russia has been a far more effective deterent than its military. The Russian military was a very restrictive and monolithic behemith. Never encouraging self initiative or creativity. In contrast the Finnish forces enjoyed much "freedom of action and initiative" much like the western powers, this "flexibility" of command was encouraged by Finnish commanders all the way down to NCO ranks very closely resembling the German forces of the day. The Russians of the day were barely better than the Turks of the same period. I submit had the Germans NOT attacked the poles in 39 the, the poles would have had an easy go of repelling the whoefully inexperienced and incompitent Russian army as the Finns did. This is how bad the Russian forces were!!!
With all that said I again say I intend no disrespect to the gallant Finnish defenders but the facts bear witness to the real reasons the Finns were able to hold off the Russians during the winter war!
As far as the Brewster is concerned, it would be unreasonable to think that all of the problems that the Russian army had could not be extended to its airforce. In many respects the Russian airforce suffered far more degridation and paralysis from Russian purges and incompitanse.
With respect to Wmaker, whom is obviously a patriotic Finn, his "historical accuracy" is viewed thru his nationalistic fervor and should be treated as such.
A few years after the winter war the Finns enjoyed a far superior defensive position and were attacked by very large Russian forces again aand were rolled over like a worm on a muddy logging road. What was the most signifant difference? Well lets just say the Russians learned much from their experience fighting the very well trained, motivated and organized German army, of whom they could have only overcome by becoming far more trained, motivated and organized! :aok
JUGgler
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Much can be said of the benefits of being the defender, but the fact still remains that the Soviets never managed to advance more then ten miles into Finland. The picture below is meant as a joke, but it's the kind of joke you laugh nervously at, like at gunpoint.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26232318/finland.jpg)
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I have to wonder how many of the 400,000 "missing" decided, "Screw Stalin, I like it here."
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(http://listverse.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/simo_hayha-s585x360-11707.jpg)
One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.
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(http://listverse.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/simo_hayha-s585x360-11707.jpg)
One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.
Who is he?
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I hate to nitpick but the Brewster was never used in the Winter War by the Finns.
It arrived too late to be deployed and it ended up being used in the Continuation War.
As far as the Finns are concerned, WWII was split up into:
The Winter War (Finland vs. USSR)
The Continuation War (Finland vs. USSR Part Deux)
and
The Lapland War (Finland vs. Nazi Germany).
The Continuation War was when the Brewster was mainly used and it was mainly replaced by 109G2's and 109G6's in 1943.
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One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.
I am sorry, but I have little respect for snipers. That does not mean that they are not effective, but they are about as noble as assassins.
What is the difference between killing an enemy that does not know you are there and killing someone in his sleep?
They are an effective instrument of war, but I fail to be inspired by them.
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I believe a plane can be judged on its usage.
If it's not perked it of course can be judged by its usage. The very point of the perk-system is to limit units which could otherwise upset the balance of the arenas through overuse.
With respect to Wmaker, whom is obviously a patriotic Finn, his "historical accuracy" is viewed thru his nationalistic fervor and should be treated as such.
I've been interested in the exploits of the Finnish Air Force since I was roughly 9. The above could have been an accurate description of me back then. Since then though, I've been far too interested about the actual truth to be that way. I have no problems talking about the mistakes of the FiAF or what could have been done better. I'm interested of the actual truth. On the other hand your attitude shows quite clearly what you interested in and that is sh*t stirring and flame baiting.
At first you flame bait and then when you get told that your comments are nonsense (which they were) you don't even try to argue your point anymore (because you know you'd lose that argument) and pull out the "ohh but he's a finn! - card". Pretty pathetic to say the least.
A few years after the winter war the Finns enjoyed a far superior defensive position and were attacked by very large Russian forces again aand were rolled over like a worm on a muddy logging road.
Again all you do with these kind of comments is reveal your ignorance. I suggest you actually read something about the Stalin's 4th strategic offensive and about the defense mounted by the Finns/Germans (Kuhlmey). It is true that when the attack started it truly disrupted Finnish lines of defense and the at first the retreat was made more in panic instead of being organized, but a lot happened after that. Again, you are just flame baiting with your descriptions, therefore it's impossible consider having an actual discussion.
To anyone who wants to read a rather accurate account of the offensive and its results can do so here:
Soviet strategic offensive
On 9 June 1944, the Soviet Union opened a major offensive against Finnish positions on the Karelian Isthmus and in the area of Lake Ladoga (it was timed to accompany D-Day[110]). On the 21.7 km (13.5 mi)-wide breakthrough segment the Red Army had concentrated 3,000 guns and mortars. In some places, the concentration of artillery pieces exceeded 200 guns for every kilometer of the front (one every 5 m (5.5 yd)). On that day, Soviet artillery fired over 80,000 rounds along the front on the Karelian Isthmus. On the second day of the offensive, the Soviet forces broke through the Finnish front lines. The Soviets penetrated the second line of defence by the sixth day. The Soviet pressure on the Karelian Isthmus forced the Finns to reinforce the area. This allowed the second Soviet offensive in Eastern Karelia to meet less resistance and to capture Petrozavodsk by 28 June 1944. The main objective of the offensives was to force Finland from the war.[111]
Finland especially lacked modern antitank weaponry which could stop Soviet heavy tanks, and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop offered these in exchange for a guarantee that Finland would not seek a separate peace again. On 26 June, President Risto Ryti gave this guarantee as a personal undertaking, which he intended to last for the remainder of his presidency. In addition to delivering thousands of hand-held Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck antitank weapons (German equivalents of American bazookas), Hitler sent the 122nd Infantry Division, ½-strength 303rd Assault Gun Brigade, and a Luftwaffe Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey to provide temporary support in the most threatened defense sectors.
With new supplies from Germany, the Finnish army halted the Soviet advance in early July 1944. At this point, the Finnish forces had retreated about one hundred kilometres, which brought them to approximately the same line of defence they had held at the end of the Winter War. This line was known as the VKT-line (short for "Viipuri–Kuparsaari–Taipale", running from Viborg to River Vuoksi to Lake Ladoga at Taipale), where the Finnish Army stopped the Soviet offensive in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala in spite of the Soviet numerical and material superiority.[112][113][114] The front stabilized once again.[112][113][114] A few battles were fought in the latter stages of the war. The last of them was the Battle of Ilomantsi, a Finnish victory, from 26 July to 13 August 1944.[109][115][116][117] The struggle to contain the Soviet offensive was exhausting Finnish resources. The German support under the Ryti-Ribbentrop Agreement had prevented a disaster, but the country would not be able to hold another major attack.[118] The Soviet advances against German Army Groups Center and North further complicated matters for Finland.[118] With the front being stable so far, it was a good time for Finland to seek a way out of the war.[118][119][120] By the beginning of August President Ryti resigned to allow Finland to sue for peace again, which the new government did in late August.[111][119][121] The Soviet peace terms were harsh, but the $600,000,000 reparations demanded in the spring were reduced to $300,000,000,[109] most likely due to pressure from the US and Britain.[122] However, after the ceasefire the Soviets insisted that the payments should be based on 1938 prices, which doubled the amount.[122] This sum constituted half of Finland's annual gross domestic product in 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War)
As far as the Brewster is concerned, it would be unreasonable to think that all of the problems that the Russian army had could not be extended to its airforce.
Not at all, as they indeed did get their share of the purges. The purges in general have however been overstated in many occasions. Also to really understand the combat worthiness of the VVS and the aspects that affected it is a far more complicated than "Soviet Air Force sucked at first and then came better because Stalin initially executed all the competent leaders."
In many respects the Russian airforce suffered far more degridation and paralysis from Russian purges and incompitanse.
What is your source for this statement?
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I have to wonder how many of the 400,000 "missing" decided, "Screw Stalin, I like it here."
Well you posted this theory of yours before but it doesn't sound anymore logical the second time.
I severely doubt the number of missing in that pic. But as far as your theory goes, do you really think that no one would have noticed 100000+ Soviet soldiers living it up in Finland? :lol
Maybe I've misunderstood you but I really can't understand your logic here.
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Who is he?
He's Simo Häyhä. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä)
The Continuation War was when the Brewster was mainly used and it was mainly replaced by 109G2's and 109G6's in 1943.
Brewster was (unfortunately) never fully replaced as a fighter during the war. It remained as a front line fighter to the end. It stopped being the "back bone" of the Finnish fighter arm however.
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If it's not perked it of course can be judged by its usage. The very point of the perk-system is to limit units which could otherwise upset the balance of the arenas through overuse.
I've been interested in the exploits of the Finnish Air Force since I was roughly 9. The above could have been an accurate description of me back then. Since then though, I've been far too interested about the actual truth to be that way. I have no problems talking about the mistakes of the FiAF or what could have been done better. I'm interested of the actual truth. On the other hand your attitude shows quite clearly what you interested in and that is sh*t stirring and flame baiting.
At first you flame bait and then when you get told that your comments are nonsense (which they were) you don't even try to argue your point anymore (because you know you'd lose that argument) and pull out the "ohh but he's a finn! - card". Pretty pathetic to say the least.
Again all you do with these kind of comments is reveal your ignorance. I suggest you actually read something about the Stalin's 4th strategic offensive and about the defense mounted by the Finns/Germans (Kuhlmey). It is true that when the attack started it truly disrupted Finnish lines of defense and the at first the retreat was made more in panic instead of being organized, but a lot happened after that. Again, you are just flame baiting with your descriptions, therefore it's impossible consider having an actual discussion.
To anyone who wants to read a rather accurate account of the offensive and its results can do so here:
Soviet strategic offensive
On 9 June 1944, the Soviet Union opened a major offensive against Finnish positions on the Karelian Isthmus and in the area of Lake Ladoga (it was timed to accompany D-Day[110]). On the 21.7 km (13.5 mi)-wide breakthrough segment the Red Army had concentrated 3,000 guns and mortars. In some places, the concentration of artillery pieces exceeded 200 guns for every kilometer of the front (one every 5 m (5.5 yd)). On that day, Soviet artillery fired over 80,000 rounds along the front on the Karelian Isthmus. On the second day of the offensive, the Soviet forces broke through the Finnish front lines. The Soviets penetrated the second line of defence by the sixth day. The Soviet pressure on the Karelian Isthmus forced the Finns to reinforce the area. This allowed the second Soviet offensive in Eastern Karelia to meet less resistance and to capture Petrozavodsk by 28 June 1944. The main objective of the offensives was to force Finland from the war.[111]
Finland especially lacked modern antitank weaponry which could stop Soviet heavy tanks, and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop offered these in exchange for a guarantee that Finland would not seek a separate peace again. On 26 June, President Risto Ryti gave this guarantee as a personal undertaking, which he intended to last for the remainder of his presidency. In addition to delivering thousands of hand-held Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck antitank weapons (German equivalents of American bazookas), Hitler sent the 122nd Infantry Division, ½-strength 303rd Assault Gun Brigade, and a Luftwaffe Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey to provide temporary support in the most threatened defense sectors.
With new supplies from Germany, the Finnish army halted the Soviet advance in early July 1944. At this point, the Finnish forces had retreated about one hundred kilometres, which brought them to approximately the same line of defence they had held at the end of the Winter War. This line was known as the VKT-line (short for "Viipuri–Kuparsaari–Taipale", running from Viborg to River Vuoksi to Lake Ladoga at Taipale), where the Finnish Army stopped the Soviet offensive in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala in spite of the Soviet numerical and material superiority.[112][113][114] The front stabilized once again.[112][113][114] A few battles were fought in the latter stages of the war. The last of them was the Battle of Ilomantsi, a Finnish victory, from 26 July to 13 August 1944.[109][115][116][117] The struggle to contain the Soviet offensive was exhausting Finnish resources. The German support under the Ryti-Ribbentrop Agreement had prevented a disaster, but the country would not be able to hold another major attack.[118] The Soviet advances against German Army Groups Center and North further complicated matters for Finland.[118] With the front being stable so far, it was a good time for Finland to seek a way out of the war.[118][119][120] By the beginning of August President Ryti resigned to allow Finland to sue for peace again, which the new government did in late August.[111][119][121] The Soviet peace terms were harsh, but the $600,000,000 reparations demanded in the spring were reduced to $300,000,000,[109] most likely due to pressure from the US and Britain.[122] However, after the ceasefire the Soviets insisted that the payments should be based on 1938 prices, which doubled the amount.[122] This sum constituted half of Finland's annual gross domestic product in 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War)
Not at all, as they indeed did get their share of the purges. The purges in general have however been overstated in many occasions. Also to really understand the combat worthiness of the VVS and the aspects that affected it is a far more complicated than "Soviet Air Force sucked at first and then came better because Stalin initially executed all the competent leaders."
What is your source for this statement?
So, if it wasn't superior training, superior morale, superior organization, superior lines of communication, superior defensive terrain etc etc. What was the reason for this great disparity in military performance?
Superior humans in the form of the Finns? :aok
JUGgler
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Much can be said of the benefits of being the defender .....
wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????
i mean even in ah the horde always steamrolls, but not vs the finns!
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I severely doubt the number of missing in that pic. But as far as your theory goes, do you really think that no one would have noticed 100000+ Soviet soldiers living it up in Finland? :lol
Doesn't mean they stayed in FINLAND, but could certainly have used it to get to other areas of the West. And the Soviets seemed to not like to discuss defectors seeing as how it pokes holes into the supposed superiority of their system.
Just a thought that comes up whenever I see that, assuming that number is even close to accurate.
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"Superior humans in the form of the Finns?"
Hardly. The main motivation was desperation as we were effectively abandoned by western powers and effectively forced to seek help from Germany (something Mannerheim actually resented).
Can you imagine what would have happened to Finnish people if USSR would have invaded the country? And possibly after that to Sweden, and Norway which did not have the military capability Finland had. There were lists of thousands of people to be terminated one way or the other when the Russians would arrive and these lists were updated years after the war, and you can bet the "purge" would not have ended in that.
For us the war did not end in 1945 but we continued to live "our back against the bear's den" as the peace terms dictated by the USSR and accepted by the western powers left Finland only marginally able to defend herself. History has thus shown that we can really only rely on ourselves in case of such devastating events so the patriotism you may find in us is actually rather tame considering the history and circumstances, IMO.
"wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????"
Not actually held off. Sometimes yes but generally not quite. Finnish fighters did take their steady toll of Russian aircraft but there was not much to be done when they were massed in some place as in those massive attacking phases.
-C+
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So, if it wasn't superior training, superior morale, superior organization, superior lines of communication, superior defensive terrain etc etc. What was the reason for this great disparity in military performance?
Superior humans in the form of the Finns? :aok
JUGgler
It was a little bit of everything I suppose. The Finns fought to survive, as a nation and as free people; and while no one doubts the Russian soldier's morale and will to fight to save the Motherland, his morale during aggressive actions in other countries is more suspect.
The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:
Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8
Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8
The Soviets would later copy the KP31 and turn it into their legendary PPSh41. The Finns had 4,000 of these excellent close quarters weapons at the start of the Winter War.
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Oh btw. 200+ of Häyhä's 700+ kills was with the KP31.
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There is actually a term "Finlandization" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization) referring to the narrow line Finland had to walk post war to avoid angering the big bear next door.
Charge,
The Nazis had a list like that for the UK. It was extensive, but also had signs of Nazi incompetence by including Brits and German refugees who had already died. I wonder if they had a list like that for France?
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It was a little bit of everything I suppose. The Finns fought to survive, as a nation and as free people; and while no one doubts the Russian soldier's morale and will to fight to save the Motherland, his morale during aggressive actions in other countries is more suspect.
The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:
Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8
Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8
The Soviets would later copy the KP31 and turn it into their legendary PPSh41. The Finns had 4,000 of these excellent close quarters weapons at the start of the Winter War.
Correct, technology can be a huge multiplier and I did neglect to add it.
My point is Finland did not own Russia based on individual superiority, there were many factors present that (even though seriously out numbered) shows the advantages were clearly with the Finns. These examples you cite are just added to the many advantages present, lets not forget another huge one was a compressed front, the terrain allowed the Finns the luxury of fighting in a relatively small front negating virtually all numerical superiority of the Russians.
Had the Finns faced the Russians on terrain like the steps, they would have presented little more than a speed bump to them!
Anyway I completely agree with you!
JUGgler
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I have hard time seeing it considering the definition of the word and because the discussion was about FiAF/Brewster's performance against VVS.
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All the FiAF fighters with the exception of 109G were starting to have more difficult time with the newer Soviet types, there's no doubt about that. However, "mauled" they were not, not even close.
Anyway, Juggler's motive is pretty clear every time he brings up Brewster and that is to stir sh*t. It is very evident to anyone who does a quick BBS-search.
I have always maintained that the Brewster was "EASY". The point that it may not be able to run away doesn't detract from its ease of use and ease of being successfull with.
Anyone here with any moderate ability I think would agree.
I think those who think it is overmodeled confuse its easy use as "overmodeling"
Very very easy ride in AH
EASY
EASY!
By easy I mean effortless!
Just trying to be clear!
:aok
JUGgler
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wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????
What Charge said about the Winter War air war...
FiAF couldn't really "hold off" the Soviet Air Force. FiAF fighters couldn't stop Soviets from bombing Finnish cities/towns. When Soviet bomber flights were intercepted by Finnish fighters they usually suffered sizable losses but vast majority of the sorties didn't encounter opposition. Soviets could simply fly so many sorties that they largely saturated Finnish fighter defense. The point is that considering the minuscule numbers of the FiAF fighters, the losses they inflicted to the Soviet bomber forces is very very impressive IMO.
Because the fighters were tasked mainly to defend civilian targets, Soviet fighters could fly over the front and just behind it more or less unopposed. They did a lot of strafing attacks and at worst times this was far more than just a nuisance but became something that started having implications which were even strategic and tactical in nature.
Finnish Air Force couldn't really "stop" Soviet air force from doing what it was doing but the times Soviet aircraft ran into Finnish air units, they usually either lost an aerial engagement or managed to run away. There are of course exceptions but this was generally the nature of the Winter War's air war.
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The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:
Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8
Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8
There were only two 20mm rifles on the front during Winter War. Lahti L/39 didn't really arrive in time for the Winter War which is a pity because of course by the time of the Continuation War it was more or less obsolete as an anti-tank weapon but would have been effective weapon against the tanks used by the Soviets during Winter War. (A personal anecdote: My grandfather took out what was thought to be a Soviet sniper with Lahti L/39 during Continuation War.)
The anti-tank weapons of the Winter War were grenades, molotov-cocktails, wood logs, and satchel-charges.
Suomi KP/31 was rare during Winter War. Only 4000 had been made when The Winter War started.
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I have always maintained that the Brewster was "EASY". The point that it may not be able to run away doesn't detract from its ease of use and ease of being successfull with.
Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH. Heh, right.
I think the above sums up your credibility rather well. :)
I'll just ignore you from now on.
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:rolleyes:
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Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH.
At last, we agree!
I'm happy you finally came around!
good for you
JUGgler
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Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH. Heh, right.
I think the above sums up your credibility rather well. :)
I'll just ignore you from now on.
Slow planes enjoy a relative success in the arena because they basically feed off the leftovers of the 1945 monsters. The Brewsters and zekes would be completely frustrated if it wasn't for that friendly La7 that forces the enemy into a knife fight that they can jump into. In all scenarios and especially FSO events that had F4U/F6F vs. zekes, they ended with a massacre of the zekes.
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Slow planes enjoy a relative success in the arena because they basically feed off the leftovers of the 1945 monsters. The Brewsters and zekes would be completely frustrated if it wasn't for that friendly La7 that forces the enemy into a knife fight that they can jump into. In all scenarios and especially FSO events that had F4U/F6F vs. zekes, they ended with a massacre of the zekes.
The "relative success" part I consider arguable but yep, that is how those planes get a lot of their kills, that is true. I generally agree with your statement.
That doesn't remove the fact that speed as per aircraft type is one of the most important if not the most important metric for a fighter to be successful in the LWMA. Anyone who thinks that "speed doesn't matter" in being successful doesn't know what he's talking about or has an ulterior motive. For being successful there's always the rtb-part which is a lot easier when you have the speed and that is pretty clear when looking at the k/d ratios of these planes.
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The "relative success" part I consider arguable but yep, that is how those planes get a lot of their kills, that is true. I generally agree with your statement.
That doesn't remove the fact that speed as per aircraft type is one of the most important if not the most important metric for a fighter to be successful in the LWMA. Anyone who thinks that "speed doesn't matter" in being successful doesn't know what he's talking about or has an ulterior motive. For being successful there's always the rtb-part which is a lot easier when you have the speed and that is pretty clear when looking at the k/d ratios of these planes.
spot on :aok
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Yup. Speed matters. I remember Krusty telling Scherf and I that an extra 20mph wouldn't be very useful for the Mossie when we were pushing HTC to remodel the Mossie with ejector stacks. Look at the Mossie's K/D ratio before and after that 19mph gain. It went from about 0.65 to 1 to about 1.05 to 1. There were other changes too, but by far the biggest was the boost in speed.
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Shoot, gimmie a high alt turbo charger for my p39 or 20mph to the top speed of my A20G and ill be one happy camper.
BUT, ill live without it, and i wont lean on any other a/c being "easy" to justify my amount of suck at any time.
If you die to a brewster your..
A: Going under 300mph.
B: Trying to turn fight with it.
C: Somehow got jumped because of poor situational awareness.
Now, what one was it that always gets you killed to the point of coming here and trying to attack the a/c as being over modeled/easy mode?
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I think Krusty was looking at is as going from 338mph to 357mph as being only a 5.6% boost in speed for the Mossie. The thing is, when running or chasing an enemy fighter the speed range on the deck that counts, really, is 264mph (Hurricane Mk I) to 386mph (Tempest Mk V), only a 122mph range and 19mph being 15.6% of that is a much more significant gain than it appears at first glance.
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Yup. Speed matters. I remember Krusty telling Scherf and I that an extra 20mph wouldn't be very useful for the Mossie when we were pushing HTC to remodel the Mossie with ejector stacks. Look at the Mossie's K/D ratio before and after that 19mph gain. It went from about 0.65 to 1 to about 1.05 to 1. There were other changes too, but by far the biggest was the boost in speed.
The speed boost is only one part of it. The handling was improved as well, which really helps in a dogfight. The mossie FM had 2 revisions in AH2 - the first time was to fix the center of mass which was off, but left the elevator controls very weak, ruining the mossie as a dogfighter. Then there was the complete remodeling that also removed the exhaust stacks and the engines were modeled as Merlin 25s. If I am not mistaken, the old mossies were a little faster on MIL (but much slower on WEP). The WEP climb rate also got a very noticeable boost in the latest FM. I am not sure about the roll rate, but I think the old FM was slightly quicker in the roll.
I think Krusty was looking at is as going from 338mph to 357mph as being only a 5.6% boost in speed for the Mossie. The thing is, when running or chasing an enemy fighter the speed range on the deck that counts, really, is 264mph (Hurricane Mk I) to 386mph (Tempest Mk V), only a 122mph range and 19mph being 15.6% of that is a much more significant gain than it appears at first glance.
Correct. In speeds what matters is the speed difference, not the ratio.
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Thread hijack:
The Mossie always had Merlin 25s, they were just hamstrung by the flame dampers before. Now it has the daylight configuration with ejector stacks. As far as MIL speed goes I only really tested the MIL speed of the old Mossie on the deck and if I recall it was 1 or 2mph faster than the new one.. I think I have an old version of AH floating around on my hard drive some place so it might be interesting to do some MIL checks. Roll rate seems to me to be effectively the same.
Changes related to the Mossie VI that I recall:
1) Mosquito Mk VI was added
2) Mosquito Mk VI was moved from Bomber Hangar and Bomber score to Fighter Hangar and Fighter score
3) 500lb bombs were enabled in the bomb bay
4) Damage model revised, no longer burst into flames from harsh language
5) CoG corrected
6) Completely redone flight model with ejector stacks, graphics updated to AH2 standards
7) Climb rate was slightly increased
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Speaking of the mossie I've had brewsters catch me when I am doing 400+ MpH.....Any reason that is happening???
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Speaking of the mossie I've had brewsters catch me when I am doing 400+ MpH.....Any reason that is happening???
They had a lot of altitude to blow in a dive on you is the only way it should happen. In the deceleration tests I did of the B-239 vs the Fw190D-9 the B-239 did not exhibit any unexpected ability to retain energy. It slowed very much faster than the Fw190D-9 did in both power on and power off tests.
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They had a lot of altitude to blow in a dive on you is the only way it should happen. In the deceleration tests I did of the B-239 vs the Fw190D-9 the B-239 did not exhibit any unexpected ability to retain energy. It slowed very much faster than the Fw190D-9 did in both power on and power off tests.
Yeah, since I've been back I've had Brewsters dive on me a couple times. Even if they're in a max power dive with a good altitude advantage I've yet to see one pull closer than 600 yards before my 1A starts to pull away again. Most times I usually don't even need to nose down. They can pick up a good bit of smash going downhill, but not nearly enough to overcome their power deficiency in an extended chase.
If you' were caught by a Brewster at that speed, I'd guess you were really napping at the controls.
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If you die to a brewster your..
A: Going under 300mph.
B: Trying to turn fight with it.
C: Somehow got jumped because of poor situational awareness.
+1
Last weekend I was the one doing the jumping and that sounds very accurate.
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Oh yes I always like to HO blast jugs out of the sky with my mighty 4x.50 NOT! Hurri has hizookas.
If I did HO I would rather have 4 50s then 1 30mm....easier to hit at longer range.
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Well, one followed me up from 1K+ below (6K my alt at tally) after he recently took off from his base, I dropped my ord on town maintaing dive and then leveling out around 2K. The Brew gained on me during the dive and gained on me for a significant amount of time during flattening out. I figured no way a Brew is going to catch a D-Hog from 2K out and in a dive at approaching speeds of 400mph, but sure enough he got within 1K of me and sprayed bullets everywhere getting pings until finally a friendly distracted him away. I don't know how things would have ended otherwise. But, is the Brew over-modeled, no doubt in my mind it is, I've seen so much out of it that doesn't make sense. If it were as capable a dog fighter in WW2, then they'd be using it 'til the days of surrender. If Brews can hunt down Corsairs and the like then something is not right. I don't mean hunt down for 30 seconds or so, this went on upwards of 1.5mins+.
I gonna go fly the Brew around and see for myself how I can hunt down (anything)...I know it can almost out turn anything.
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Got film?
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If I did HO I would rather have 4 50s then 1 30mm....easier to hit at longer range.
What does 30mm has to do with the point Ripley was making?
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RotBaron,
Sounds like he cut your corners.
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RotBaron,
Sounds like he cut your corners.
One thing about the brewster is that it's an incredibly stable gun platform and it has great visibility over the nose which makes deflection shots much easyer than many other planes. This reflects to real life where BW pilots nicknamed it the 'pearl of the sky'.
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If I did HO I would rather have 4 50s then 1 30mm....easier to hit at longer range.
Convergence, convergence - if the plane has 50s or 20mm and long range convergences, they can end you further out and earlier in a HO than someoen with a 30mm (and has the 30mm set/adjusted to use effectively - ala closer distances)
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I wish we had a 900 option in the convergence tab.
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Thanks for the replies. No I don't have film of it, I've developed a bad habit of hitting cancel on film without even thinking about. Done that many times lately on good fights that I wanted to save :bhead
I'm going to go take a look at all my convergences, I originally put them all at Soda's recommendations...
I know this would seem contrary to fact, but the Brew seems more capable with 4 50's than the corsairs, 51's and jugs with 6 or 8 50's...checking convergence now on all. :noid
:salute
Rot
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That's in part because, at least in my experience, the P-51s, Corsairs and P-47s are going to rely more on snapshots in the typical MA fight. However the Brewster is more likely to be able to saddle up for a tracking shot.
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I was playing with the brewster offline last night testing a gunsight. I discovered the Brew has two very strong abilities that answered for me how sometimes I badly underestimate it in the MA.
I discovered by shallow diving to rapidly achive 300+ ta that you can zoom up 3000ft like an unbeleivable rocket. Then at the top of the climb you can trade nose for tail in an instant dropping right back down your path of climb. Add to this it's excellent turning ability, and yes, in the MA it would seem over modeled. It's not very fast flying level but, using shallow dives it reaches 300 quickly and retains it which makes it deadly in low level MA furballs.
It's a well balanced ride to perform low level syncronised air show aerobatic drive by shootings if you keep it to it's strengths. I didn't attempt to address a common complaint that it can dive to achive 400+ and retain that speed unnaturaly running down the late war speed monsters. Sometimes I have wondered if things like that instead might be realted to UDP updates not quite synced right time wise for both parties.
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I was playing with the brewster offline last night testing a gunsight. I discovered the Brew has two very strong abilities that answered for me how sometimes I badly underestimate it in the MA.
I discovered by shallow diving to rapidly achive 300+ ta that you can zoom up 3000ft like an unbeleivable rocket. Then at the top of the climb you can trade nose for tail in an instant dropping right back down your path of climb. Add to this it's excellent turning ability, and yes, in the MA it would seem over modeled. It's not very fast flying level but, using shallow dives it reaches 300 quickly and retains it which makes it deadly in low level MA furballs.
It's a well balanced ride to perform low level syncronised air show aerobatic drive by shootings if you keep it to it's strengths. I didn't attempt to address a common complaint that it can dive to achive 400+ and retain that speed unnaturaly running down the late war speed monsters. Sometimes I have wondered if things like that instead might be realted to UDP updates not quite synced right time wise for both parties.
I oftentimes wonder if some of the complaints about being caught by a brew aren't the result of too much reliance on simply being in one of the faster planes. In other words the pony or FW or whatever fast plane driver sees the brew at 3k, break turns away and begins to leave having no real idea of the brew drivers E state. The brew driver sees the pony 5k away and begins a zero G dive in lead pursuit if applicable. In other words the brew driver knows he is at a top speed disadvantage and knows he has to be smooth and make careful moves in order to get the max out of his plane in terms of speed using any angles he can in the process. The pony driver (or fw etc) just sees the brew (or zeke etc) and sorta panics, and/or doesn't account for the drag and wasted manuevering and simply points his plane in the desired direction as soon as possible and hits wep. I see alot of 51 drivers just kinda go blank and run...if you get in guns range they just sorta jink around...no attempt to fight even if they are clearly losing the drag race. It's like gunnery practice sometimes. I wonder if they realize how much all that random manuevering slows them down and enables the brew (or whatever slower plane on paper) to catch them/stay in guns range longer?
For the record I've seen this with all plane types, this isn't meant as an attack on all mustang pilots in any way. Some of the most funny are the spit16's...doesn't make good sense unless they are out of ammo, gas or pw etc. Even then, if your losing the race you may as well turn back and at least make the other guy work for it, but I digress......
Zaphod
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I oftentimes wonder if some of the complaints about being caught by a brew aren't the result of too much reliance on simply being in one of the faster planes. In other words the pony or FW or whatever fast plane driver sees the brew at 3k, break turns away and begins to leave having no real idea of the brew drivers E state. The brew driver sees the pony 5k away and begins a zero G dive in lead pursuit if applicable. In other words the brew driver knows he is at a top speed disadvantage and knows he has to be smooth and make careful moves in order to get the max out of his plane in terms of speed using any angles he can in the process. The pony driver (or fw etc) just sees the brew (or zeke etc) and sorta panics, and/or doesn't account for the drag and wasted manuevering and simply points his plane in the desired direction as soon as possible and hits wep. I see alot of 51 drivers just kinda go blank and run...if you get in guns range they just sorta jink around...no attempt to fight even if they are clearly losing the drag race. It's like gunnery practice sometimes. I wonder if they realize how much all that random manuevering slows them down and enables the brew (or whatever slower plane on paper) to catch them/stay in guns range longer?
For the record I've seen this with all plane types, this isn't meant as an attack on all mustang pilots in any way. Some of the most funny are the spit16's...doesn't make good sense unless they are out of ammo, gas or pw etc. Even then, if your losing the race you may as well turn back and at least make the other guy work for it, but I digress......
Zaphod
When I played the last time I saw a brewster a little bit higher than me. I was in the F4u-D. I didn't want to turnfight him and was low on E after furballing so I went into a zero-g dive to escape. I used up all the alt I had and leveled out. But the brew just kept catching me! Clearly it's overmodeled! I just couldn't do anything to escape it I was wepping and all. I managed to drag it over a V field and finally started a desperate turnfight against it. I managed to stay alive long enough for my countrymen to finish him off.
Only then I realized that when I was furballing with an another F4u earlyer I had deployed my gear to prevent overshoot - and pressed twice by accident afterwards when I wanted to pull them up. I was diving and 'extending' with gear down :lol
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I always considered this plane a great addition to the game. Its a real sweetheart to fly.
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When I played the last time I saw a brewster a little bit higher than me. I was in the F4u-D. I didn't want to turnfight him and was low on E after furballing so I went into a zero-g dive to escape. I used up all the alt I had and leveled out. But the brew just kept catching me! Clearly it's overmodeled! I just couldn't do anything to escape it I was wepping and all. I managed to drag it over a V field and finally started a desperate turnfight against it. I managed to stay alive long enough for my countrymen to finish him off.
Only then I realized that when I was furballing with an another F4u earlyer I had deployed my gear to prevent overshoot - and pressed twice by accident afterwards when I wanted to pull them up. I was diving and 'extending' with gear down :lol
What gets me most the time is that I'll avoid one trying to HO and it can turn 180 on a dime without loosing enough speed/E that they are still faster than me and now gaining on my 6. It is the UFO of AH.
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Rot, first rule when being chased by a turn and burn A/C with a Alt and E "situation advantage" is NEVER dive, never ever dive.
Most planes can keep up untill level alt is reached then they bleed off fairly quick, in your jugg you would have been better off applying a +1 climb with a slight rolling turn, the second you see the enemy cons icon range falling away level out and fly off.
And if you do, say your being gunned at from 1k or closer and closing, put the plane in a slight* -1 dive with a gentle turn. It will keep your speed and make a gun solution much harder.
Keep in mind this wont work with 44-45 birds,as they will have just as much dive and climb power as any.
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What gets me most the time is that I'll avoid one trying to HO and it can turn 180 on a dime without loosing enough speed/E that they are still faster than me and now gaining on my 6. It is the UFO of AH.
Right! :lol
...and I'm sure you have a collection of films demonstrating this too right? :)
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Rot, first rule when being chased by a turn and burn A/C with a Alt and E "situation advantage" is NEVER dive, never ever dive.
So when a brewster is zooming down on you 400+ and you're 200mph sitting duck you should just start climbing? Wouldn't it be faster to turn towards him and pull up to a cross to help him shoot? :D