Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: lulu on December 29, 2012, 11:06:26 AM
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Let's discuss.
:salute
P.S:
Let's describe the maneouvres pls with a list.
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Snap-rolls, with lots of practice. Or, in planes like the 109 when you're too slow to pull off a snap-roll, unload the plane (make zero G) and use aileron with the torque. Again, the more you practice, the more finely and accurately you can do it.
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Snsp-roll in the verse of torque, i suppose !?
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keeping the same alt:
at corner speed, flat turn
over corner speed, high yoyo
under corner speed, low yoyo
? :headscratch:
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Snsp-roll in the verse of torque, i suppose !?
Not necessarily. Actually I find it to be easier to snap-roll to the right rather than left with the torque, because the plane usually has a tendency to side-slip very badly if you don't do it just right.
Holmes, I believe he is talking about changing direction as fast as possible.
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Snap rolls are not reversals. At the end of a snap roll you're generally headed in the same direction as when you start. Reversals are divided up like this. First, role reversal (notice I said role, not roll). This is simply going from offensive to defensive or visa versa. Second, control reversal. Changing from a left turn to a right turn. However, the OP asked specifically about reversing or turning back quickly.
This, simply defined, means a 180 degree change of direction. Holms is correct as far as he goes. Your best turn rate occurs at corner velocity so if you're above corner you need to slow down (high yoyo), if you're below corner you need to speed up (low yo-yo) and if you're at corner then, theoretically you can just do a flat turn. Problem is, with WWII aircraft you'll always bleed so a flat turn isn't going to do much good. There is another consideration though and that's your turn radius. A high yo-yo, even if below corner, may be advantageous because it uses gravity to decrease your turn radius. If you have a large turn radius and are being chased by someone with a smaller turn radius give you by the high yo-yo will reduce the angles he'll gain and may even result in a neutral nose-to-nose pass. If you do a low yo-yo, gravity will increase your radius and may give your adversary the ability to turn inside of you.
There's another subset of reversal's though and that's the vertical reversal. These are usually also known as a "rudder reversal." In this case, we're talking about a vertical fight versus a predominently horizontal fight. The typical scenario is one aircraft roping another. When the lower fighter falls off the upper fighter reverses and dives in for the kill. This reversal is typically at slow speed (below about 100mph) and is best done using a combination of rudder and engine torque (hence the term rudder reversal). At higher speeds (above about 100mph) then simply completing the top of a loop works.
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If you're just talking about reversing direction, not position, if I have the airspeed I prefer using an Immelman (the modern half-loop, not the original maneuver)
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1-st synthesis
air-speed
low high corner
snap-roll Immelman over: High yo-yo
rudder (rope&dope) low: low yo-yo
I think that a point is still missing:
How do you do the turn ?
Bank, pull, throttling or
Put nose down a bit, rudder a bit, bank and pull, throttling too ?
P.S.
Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It worked well.
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Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It worked well.
Indeed, good job. :)
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1-st synthesis
snap-roll
lulu, it was already explained in a previous post that a snap-roll doesn't reverse your turn.
Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It worked well.
Of course in this case it was used as a guns defense and not a reversal. At that range a snap roll appears to the attacker as though the aircraft flicks around rapidly, very similar to the stick stirring effect, and often just ends in a collision or getting gunned anyway. The last time I saw it, I just smiled, pulled up to avoid the collision and the overshoot, then adjusted for another shot. But I'm off topic, you asked about turn reversals and not how to do a guns defence.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Hi
In addition to the reversals already explained, here is one more option that can be used when there is no real urgency, because you have enough room to reverse. However, now your concern is not how to reverse as quickly as possible, because the problems is that reversing quickly involves using more G and that may leave you with an energy deficiency for the ensuing fight. The simple fact is that with equally skilled pilots in the same aircraft merging with an energy deficiency is the kiss of death. So you want to reverse, but not as quickly as possible, but with the least cost in energy as possible, thus beginning the fight with the best chance of success.
Here is what you can do:
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/reversal.png)
This process actually costs energy due to the G used, but during the part of the reversal when your speed is lower than the attacker you are gaining energy relative to your faster opponent and the two effects cancel out to bring you to the merge with as close to the same energy as your opponent as possible. You can even judge it so that you merge slightly below and slightly faster than your opponent which is about as good as it gets against someone good.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Hi
In addition to the reversals already explained, here is one more option that can be used when there is no real urgency, because you have enough room to reverse. However, now your concern is not how to reverse as quickly as possible, because the problems is that reversing quickly involves using more G and that may leave you with an energy deficiency for the ensuing fight. The simple fact is that with equally skilled pilots in the same aircraft merging with an energy deficiency is the kiss of death. So you want to reverse, but not as quickly as possible, but with the least cost in energy as possible, thus beginning the fight with the best chance of success.
Here is what you can do:
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/reversal.png)
This process actually costs energy due to the G used, but during the part of the reversal when your speed is lower than the attacker you are gaining energy relative to your faster opponent and the two effects cancel out to bring you to the merge with as close to the same energy as your opponent as possible. You can even judge it so that you merge slightly below and slightly faster than your opponent which is about as good as it gets against someone good.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
It should be noted that both of these maneuvers require at least 1K of separation to avoid certain death, especially against fast, high roll-rate a/c like the LA7, PonyD, and Tempest
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TY Badboy and Changeup.
Just a question,
how much difference in speed between attacker and defender does this maneouvre needs?
And if the attacker will follow up the defender does it still works?
:salute
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TY Badboy and Changeup.
Just a question,
how much difference in speed between attacker and defender does this maneouvre needs?
And if the attacker will follow up the defender does it still works?
:salute
Difference in speed is negligible unless you are slow...if you're too slow to pull the shallow climb, this cannot be done effectively unless he's slow too but you have to have separation. This also assumes you've got alt to work with. To pull these off, you really need to possess similar speeds. Separation is they key....
My favorite is when you're slow and he's faster. Once he's 1K out on your 6, start a slow, flat turn and as you see him turning with you for the lead shot, pull up when he appears to be parallel with you and and turning to follow you up. You'll be slower, barrel roll into him, drop a notch of flaps and he'll slide right in front of you. If he flies by instead of following you up, you nose down, gather some squirrels, and extend to re-engage. The Krupinski Reversal.
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It should be noted that both of these maneuvers require at least 1K of separation to avoid certain death, especially against fast, high roll-rate a/c like the LA7, PonyD, and Tempest
Hi,
It depends on the circumstances, but the range needs to be enough that that you are confident there is plenty of room to complete the maneuver before you come back into guns range. This maneuver is a fairly lazy, energy conserving maneuver, if you are under any risk of being gunned before it is complete you shouldn't risk it. I find this is only worth trying if you can see the bandit isn't closing and you clearly have enough separation.
Exactly what range you need depends on the aircraft and if the bandit is closing or not and depends largely on your experience and judgement. The important thing is that if you have any doubts that you can complete this maneuver without risking a shot, you need to use one of the reversals described by Mace earlier that will get you around much quicker.
Badboy
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how much difference in speed between attacker and defender does this maneouvre needs?
The important thing is that you have enough separation to complete the maneuver outside of guns range.
And if the attacker will follow up the defender does it still works?
Yes, providing you have sufficient separation, but if the bandit begins to climb as well I would modify the split-S into a low slice to reduce altitude loss... you won't gain as much speed that way but your opponent climbed so they will be slower as well.
Remember, if you don't have enough range, then a pull up is probably the worst possible thing to do, it slows you down and allows the bandit to close on you more quickly and provides a bigger target. You will notice that in every post I have stressed the importance of having sufficient room, if you have any doubts don't do it, it is better to concede the energy than concede a gun shot.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Just an additional note here,
None of the information or maneuvers described in this thread is in any way new, or in any way unique to Aces High or any of its players and certainly can not be attributed to any of the players in the game.
Badboy
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Hi,
Just to clarify some of the terminology...
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/reversal2.png)
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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I suspected that there were different types of 'split S' but how to do one or the others?
Just obesrving the attacker?
Or there are some detailed instructions?
:salute
P.S.
Beautifull picture.
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I suspected that there were different types of 'split S' but how to do one or the others?
The split-s is when you roll inverted and pull almost vertically down, each of the other directions have different names as shown on the diagram. You can learn a great deal on these boards by taking your time to read the messages here with care. Ideally cross referencing what the better players and the real world experts are saying, particularly those by Mace, whose posts greatly repay careful study.
Or there are some detailed instructions?
Each of them begin with an aileron roll followed by aft stick to increase the G. The reasons/benefits in each case was explained previously by Mace. The subtleties of each are best learned by practice. I recommend finding a buddy who wants to practice the same thing and taking them to the training/dueling arena to work on your reversals, do several each then change roles so that you get to see what it looks like from both sides, and talk to each other a lot. When something good happens share it. A simple training setup would be to start with them on your six and then practice your reversals. The main parameters to vary are the aircraft types and the initial speed and initial range. I suggest starting with what ever situation you find most difficult or interesting in the MA. You will learn far more quickly that way and hopefully you will have a lot of fun in the process...
Good luck with that.
Badboy
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Hi,
It depends on the circumstances, but the range needs to be enough that that you are confident there is plenty of room to complete the maneuver before you come back into guns range. This maneuver is a fairly lazy, energy conserving maneuver, if you are under any risk of being gunned before it is complete you shouldn't risk it. I find this is only worth trying if you can see the bandit isn't closing and you clearly have enough separation.
Exactly what range you need depends on the aircraft and if the bandit is closing or not and depends largely on your experience and judgement. The important thing is that if you have any doubts that you can complete this maneuver without risking a shot, you need to use one of the reversals described by Mace earlier that will get you around much quicker.
Badboy
QFT. I suggested 1K so that gives him room to wiggle. In most a/c, I use 800 but that's because I'm comfortable doing it and getting out of the problem I may have caused myself should I run into a vet that knows what I'm doing and he watched his E retention in the turn. The good ones will counter by NOT following you up hard, but instead, stay at a 90 degree to your position and slow climb, convert their alt to E and hammer you. For me, at 800, things happen too fast for most aggressive flyers to negotiate. Once practiced for a good barrel roll, this maneuver is a deadly reversal, especially in a/c that accelerate/climb well.
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The split-s is when you roll inverted and pull almost vertically down, each of the other directions have different names as shown on the diagram. You can learn a great deal on these boards by taking your time to read the messages here with care. Ideally cross referencing what the better players and the real world experts are saying, particularly those by Mace, whose posts greatly repay careful study.
Each of them begin with an aileron roll followed by aft stick to increase the G. The reasons/benefits in each case was explained previously by Mace. The subtleties of each are best learned by practice. I recommend finding a buddy who wants to practice the same thing and taking them to the training/dueling arena to work on your reversals, do several each then change roles so that you get to see what it looks like from both sides, and talk to each other a lot. When something good happens share it. A simple training setup would be to start with them on your six and then practice your reversals. The main parameters to vary are the aircraft types and the initial speed and initial range. I suggest starting with what ever situation you find most difficult or interesting in the MA. You will learn far more quickly that way and hopefully you will have a lot of fun in the process...
Good luck with that.
Badboy
LULU...I'll be on tonight after 10PM EST. Find me and I'll take you to the TA and show you what BadBoy's written if he isn't going to be on. Just let me know.
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Changeup,
I'm reading this now.
Sorry.
Ty for your proposal.
I think that tomorrow I will play at 10pm o'clock Italy time. (10pm est -> 10 - 7 -> 3am in Italy, if I guess)
If You want we can define a next day to meet in TA.
Badboy,
I had to think about these possibilities, but frrom the picture and from my toughts at first sight they seemed all vertical maneouvres. I was on the point of posting if they were performing by rolling a little lol.
However, I will grateful if You made a list of action to do those maneouvres in f4u and p51.
TY.
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However, I will grateful if You made a list of action to do those maneouvres in f4u and p51.
All except for the Immelmann you begin with an aileron roll to align your aircraft with the chosen direction for the reversal, say 45° for a high slice, 90° for a flat turn, 135° for the low slice and 180° for the split-s, and of course you can do it either left or right. Once your aircraft is aligned, use aft stick to increase the G and complete the turn, keeping the bandit in sight the whole time. The greater the separation when you begin, the more room you have for the the turn, and the less G you need to use. Never use any more G than necessary. The energy conserving reversal I mentioned only differs because you climb gently beforehand to gain the altitude you know you will lose in the split-s.
As mentioned previously, the subtleties need to be worked out in the air and I see you have received an offer to do exactly that... Have fun with it!
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Hi,
Just roll and pull, no rudder or just a bit of rudder to coordinate?
:salute
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Hi,
Just roll and pull, no rudder or just a bit of rudder to coordinate?
:salute
If you're at slow speed and/or your airplane has a poor roll rate you can use a bit of rudder to help initiate the roll. For the most part, AH planes don't really need lots of rudder work to fly coordinated turns but some rudder can really be helpful in getting you going in the right direction.
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BTW, thanks for the outstanding diagrams Badboy, helpful and descriptive as always! :salute
Just for clarity, we typically describe these turns as vertical, horizontal, or oblique. For the oblique turns we used more descriptive terms when they were being applied to a reversal. Your "high slice" we would call a pitchback and the "low slice" was just a slice or slicing turn. Differentiating them made it much clearer in the air in case someone missed the high or low call.
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Differentiating them made it much clearer in the air in case someone missed the high or low call.
Makes perfect sense, thanks.
The diagram has been updated to reflect that terminology.
Regards
Badboy
(Edit: Use CTRL F5 in explorer to refresh your browser for the new image)
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and all this time i thought alt/r was for reverse. no wonder they keep killing me in there :cry
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You wrong,
alt/r is for super-wep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzhOCtryc2o
:salute
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Canyon fights tomorrow night....be there or be square! Check the general forum for details...a great environment to learn stall fighting.