Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Randy1 on December 31, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
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The other night was particularly bad having three head-ons and having lost two of them.
I am working on making the most out of a dreaded head-on attack. If I can get my mind straight when I recognize a fast closing red guy, I push the nose down just a bit as I should then try to pull up in front of the attacker for the merge. I want to take a shot during the pull up but sometimes that leads to a hit by a canon or a collision. At other times the head on comes so quick I can do nothing but fire back which seems to end all too often in either in taking a canon shot or collision both of which my P47M seems to loose.
Any tips on first recognizing quickly a head-on. Second should I not try for a pull up shot as I setup for the merge or try to pull up sooner to avoid getting in shot making range.
I think if I can see the head-on coming quicker then I can avoid the head-on and maybe even take advantage of the situation with good merge.
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In my experience, most "HO's" develop from quite a distance, with an enemy plane coming in from a good distance out (3k or more) and all you ever see of him on the way in is a + sign without the bottom line. If you pull straight onto him, you're now in an HO situation. I would like to point out that if you see him coming in like this, you're the one who gets to decide whether it turns into a face shooting competition or not.
My personal preference for a merge is to go nose low and try to pass at about a 4 o'clock angle to the bandit if he's just tracking me for a shot. The idea is to get your plane moving in a vector that puts you in a position where if he tries to pull to get lead for a shot, he'll have to black out before he can get it.
It's relatively easy to do this, the finesse comes from retaining as much of your E as possible. If he's one of these guys that just wants to keep pulling for a solution on every pass, I try to keep him pulling as hard as I can, while keeping my speed up as much as possible. After 2-3 turns if he's just banking and yanking, he can be low enough E for me to go for a rope. Plane matchup comes into play with this as well.
Really, I treat a HO attempt very similar to how I treat a guy trying to bounce me with alt. Don't move in a straight line, make your plane skinny to him when he's getting close to gun range. If he's pulling hard, I often like to do a high speed, gradually climbing chandelle to get higher than him while retaining speed. The object is for me to make small, E efficient adjustments and keep him at angles that get him burning E trying to put his pipper on me and hopefully fighting uphill.
When I'm fighting someone, I like to get above them or in a superior E state before I start actually trying to shoot them. A guy that's going for a HO doesn't often think ahead in the fight, all he's looking at is what's right in front of him. What I find effective with such an opponent is to try to establish an E advantage, then use it as a club to beat him with.
If I happen to be in something that thoroughly outclasses him in turning and I have smash to work with, sometimes I'll go to another tactic. I'll basically pass him at that 4 o'clock angle, and pull hard into him trying to saddle up. I tend to favor the Jug-like planes though, which means that isn't an option very often for me unless I'm trying to surprise him by doing the unexpected.
Coming at it from the other side, if you're moving in from advantage to engage a guy who turns up to face shoot you, I generally pull up a bit so I pass above him and to a side 600-800 yards out, again retaining my E and hoping he tries to put his nose up to follow me and try to shoot me.
Wiley.
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If you plan to reverse the guy put your nose down with him in about the middle of your forward/up view. You're now gaining E and he has to push negative G's to stay on his shot. Once you cross under his nose pull up and, depending on what he's doing, begin your reverse. Now you're losing speed allowing you to make a tighter turn while he's been nose low gaining speed and is likely subject to blackout limitations.
If you plan to just fly by a simple barrel role works well.
In either case don't take the shot yourself as you're just playing into his hands going nose to nose.
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Randy: This thread (below) I started has really helped me, along with just googling "avoid head on" and such...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,343064.0.html
If you are attempting to HO-shoot as well as the other guy its a crap shoot so I've been told, nor is it difficult or sporty, kinda like mutually assured destruction. Most the intentional HOs I see leave both aircraft smokin or worse...
However some good sticks I've noticed still do it, I can't understand that when they have other skills :headscratch:
Wiley: Your 4'0clock or his? Like you are going in the direction of his right side?
Good luck.
:salute
Rot
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I am working on making the most out of a dreaded head-on attack. If I can get my mind straight when I recognize a fast closing red guy, I push the nose down just a bit as I should then try to pull up in front of the attacker for the merge.
Ok, I see a problem here... Don't try to pull up in front of the attacker! Far better to push under to avoid the HO, then pull up just behind the attacker.
Even better is to push under while you are far enough away to time the pull as the bandit is still trying for the HO and when you pull up, don't pull up directly into the bandit, pull up obliquely and after the merge use your ailerons to adjust the angle of your pull to line back up with a point just behind the bandit (The Elbow). If you do that correctly, the bandit will have sacrificed angles in his HO attempt and you should have a significant positional advantage.
I want to take a shot during the pull up but sometimes that leads to a hit by a canon or a collision.
That's exactly why you should forget about those high aspect shots until you can avoid them with ease and you can convert the avoidance into a positional advantage. When you can do that with ease, you will be better able to judge when the high aspect shots are unavoidable and therefore worth the risk. Remember, HOing simply involves a swap, you exchange some of your lead for some of your adversaries lead and it doesn't end well for either of you. Your objective should be to deliver as much of your lead as necessary, while ensuring the exchange is an entirely one sided arrangement.
Any tips on first recognizing quickly a head-on.
Allways assume the other guy will try to HO and fly as described above. You will soon notice that the better pilots never try to HO, they almost allways try to create some flight path separation that they can use to lead turn into you and gain a positional advantage. When you see your opponent holding his nose off, you know you are in for a good fight. When you see them lining up for the HO, you can bet they are probably inexperienced, because experience tells most players that the HO is easy to avoid once you master it.
Everyone has to climb the same learning curve as far as Head On shots are concerned, but the good news is, it won't take long to learn how to avoid them. Eventually you will go tour after tour without ever suffering a HO death.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Wiley: Your 4'0clock or his? Like you are going in the direction of his right side?
Mine. If he was the centre of the clock on my screen, I'm passing low and to my right to him, with my flight vector maybe 15-20 degrees to the right of his.
Wiley.
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I like to break away from them then break back into them suddenly, this gives them the least amount of time to make their shot before passing by. Wont work as well though with a/c that are poor turners.
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. n/m :D
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Thanks for sure for the advice and link. As always good, sound, easy to understand information.
Not sure where I got the idea to pull up in front of the bandit instead of behind but on occasions it did work that way but I can see the advantage of the passing pull over the risky move i was making.
I will see if I can take this information and see if i can improve my head-on SA. I will post back when I have the next head-on encounter.
Thanks for all the replies. I will read them all at least a couple of times to get my mind set on what to do.
Thanks again for the fast replies.
Good stuff!
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there are two kinds of HO situations: one is during a "merge" and includes an extended period of straight flight towards each other. The other is during a turn when both planes turn towards each other and end up in a HO at a very short range.
The first is easy to avoid and a few people gave good advice above. The chances of wining such a HO and coming out of it unscathed are low. Not worth it.
The second is sometimes unavoidable, especially if you are in the less maneuverable AC. You will have to decide what is better for you: accepting a short range HO shot (huge advantage to heavy cannons birds) or try to get over/under the other plane (under often gives better chances of him missing, but not always better position for the next move) and continue the knife fight. There is no clear answer in this case, it really depends on the planes match up, the exact situation and your confidence.
I usually try to avoid all HO, but if I get cornered in a Mossie vs. multiple opponent and one comes at me from the front, he should expect a facefull of 4*20+4*.303.
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Another giant step forward guys and I thank you all for the help.
I only had one head-on today that I could not use the advice y'all had given me take advantage of the situation. That was because me and a P38 had both turned ending up head-on against a canyon wall. There was just no where to go. Wiley I did roll hard though and survived the head-on albeit I started pouring smoke from the P47M. I had already lite up the 38 so we both tucked out tail between out legs and headed home. I didn't make it back after getting jumped by two bandits but I did make them sweat a little I think.
All other possible Head-ons that came up, I was able to avoid the head-on and got some shots off with a good merge.
After a little digging and reading, I want to start a thread to help me take full advantage of the 47M's 8 -50s.
Again, thanks for all the help. The folks on this forum are really helpful which is a huge asset.
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Another giant step forward guys and I thank you all for the help.
I only had one head-on today that I could not use the advice y'all had given me take advantage of the situation. That was because me and a P38 had both turned ending up head-on against a canyon wall. There was just no where to go. Wiley I did roll hard though and survived the head-on albeit I started pouring smoke from the P47M. I had already lite up the 38 so we both tucked out tail between out legs and headed home. I didn't make it back after getting jumped by two bandits but I did make them sweat a little I think.
All other possible Head-ons that came up, I was able to avoid the head-on and got some shots off with a good merge.
After a little digging and reading, I want to start a thread to help me take full advantage of the 47M's 8 -50s.
Again, thanks for all the help. The folks on this forum are really helpful which is a huge asset.
the biggest asset of those 8 50's is the head on shot......and the jug is a BNZ expert....not so much a dog fighter....you are trying to use a tool that it was not designed for....not saying this is necessarily a bad thing....just pointing it out....
why do you like the 47 so much?
it seems like you do not want to BnZ but want to get in there and mix it up.......there are much better planes for that.
just wonderin is all.
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the biggest asset of those 8 50's is the head on shot......and the jug is a BNZ expert....not so much a dog fighter....you are trying to use a tool that it was not designed for....not saying this is necessarily a bad thing....just pointing it out....
Wow 8 50's, didn't occur to me. I seem to see low jugs all the time and trying to mix it up, now I know why.
Correct me if I'm wrong please, but at alt of 15k or more the jug does enter the realm of a dogfighter, no?
:salute
Rot
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why do you like the 47 so much?
it seems like you do not want to BnZ but want to get in there and mix it up.......there are much better planes for that.
just wonderin is all.
Not sure why I got so attached to the 47s INK. I have yet to win an encounter with you, but maybe someday with the help you have given me in this thread and the high 109 thread. :) Man, you are one fine stick jockey. And you are right, I love a good, intense furbal. And as you pointed out the 47M is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I must say though, sticking the 47s has made me push my skill level up. I watched your film and used it to develop my flap skills. LOL when you shoot me down I want to say thanks for the learning experience. My second favorite plane is the La7 which I use if the base is under heavy attack if I can't break out the 47M to gain altitude. I do appreciate your advice. It has been really helpful.
Wow 8 50's, didn't occur to me. I seem to see low jugs all the time and trying to mix it up, now I know why.
Correct me if I'm wrong please, but at alt of 15k or more the jug does enter the realm of a dogfighter, no?
:salute
Rot
Even at 15K, it is all about Energy level management with the 47. It is slow to accelerate with the drag and weight which is its biggest liability as I see it. However, the large drag helps get overshoots and stores a lot of E for a short period of time. It is not the best turner but not bad either at any altitude. Snappy roll rate. Doggone solid WEP. High speed flaps. The 8-50's are not as deadly as a plane with good canon best I can tell.
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I must say though, sticking the 47s has made me push my skill level up.
Yup. Later on you'll try some of the better dogfighters and will think, "Hey, this is easy!"
- oldman
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Above 15k the P47M outclimbs and out runs the P-51D on WEP. All jugs can be pushed very deep into the stall and maintain full control. The final component of the package is the jug's ability to dump energy and cut a corner, better than most planes. This does not make it a turn fighter, but it does not mean it cannot turn fight, or perhaps a better term is knife fight because there's a lot more than turning that is going on. It has the full capacity to engage in a co-E fight with a better turning plane, stay for a few moves and then either win or disengage.
Jug's knife fights are short and intense, it's an all or nothing game and that's what makes it so much fun.
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Wiley I did roll hard though and survived the head-on albeit I started pouring smoke from the P47M.
And that's going to happen every once in a while. Guys with good gunnery will sometimes anticipate right and tag you. If that happens and the fight continues, make sure you don't evade the same way again on a guy like that, or he'll probably really nail you the second time.
I had forgotten about the situations Bozon mentioned where you're low E and you pull into each other close in because usually in those situations by the time you're head on in a turnfight, you both have nowhere to go. Usually when that happens to me, I am out of E and that is about the only spot I can be without stalling out.
For me, I can usually see them developing for 2-3 seconds before either of us have the shot. At that point I just try to change my vector as much as I can to get off his center line. Usually with rudder going low if I'm really at the edge, but I'll go high if I have the E to do so. Whatever I can do to slip his guns. Sometimes relaxing the turn so you go out a bit wider can help if you're close enough that he's not going to get a good snapshot and you can get below his nose, but it's risky particularly against cannon birds.
Wiley.