Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: doright on January 09, 2013, 01:19:14 AM
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I'm sure this has been asked or even tried before but I'm interested what the results were.
What if there was an arena using a High(er) Fidelity flight model?
That is, a flight model that included having to use manual rudder correction for turning forces from gyroscopic, p-factor, and torque effects and possibly more realistic engine management. Adverse yaw is the only force of that type that you can see implemented.
If tried before, was this prior to twisty sticks becoming common, making widely accessible hardware less of a problem?
Is the huge pile of wrecked vintage aircraft that ground looped on takeoff just too sad to see?
Of course some of you that know what I fly will probably see the nefarious reason for my question.
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I'm sure this has been asked or even tried before but I'm interested what the results were.
What if there was an arena using a High(er) Fidelity flight model?
That is, a flight model that included having to use manual rudder correction for turning forces from gyroscopic, p-factor, and torque effects and possibly more realistic engine management. Adverse yaw is the only force of that type that you can see implemented.
If tried before, was this prior to twisty sticks becoming common, making widely accessible hardware less of a problem?
Is the huge pile of wrecked vintage aircraft that ground looped on takeoff just too sad to see?
Of course some of you that know what I fly will probably see the nefarious reason for my question.
I don't get it. I had my first rudder axis in 1996, thrustmaster RCS, FLCS and TCS. one of the biggest wastes of money in my life.
I now play with just a logitech 3dpro twisty :)
i'm pretty sure all those effects are modeled already also.
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I'm sure this has been asked or even tried before but I'm interested what the results were.
What if there was an arena using a High(er) Fidelity flight model?
That is, a flight model that included having to use manual rudder correction for turning forces from gyroscopic, p-factor, and torque effects and possibly more realistic engine management. Adverse yaw is the only force of that type that you can see implemented.
If tried before, was this prior to twisty sticks becoming common, making widely accessible hardware less of a problem?
Is the huge pile of wrecked vintage aircraft that ground looped on takeoff just too sad to see?
Of course some of you that know what I fly will probably see the nefarious reason for my question.
Why do you think those effects are missing? :headscratch:
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I'm sure this has been asked or even tried before but I'm interested what the results were.
What if there was an arena using a High(er) Fidelity flight model?
That is, a flight model that included having to use manual rudder correction for turning forces from gyroscopic, p-factor, and torque effects and possibly more realistic engine management. Adverse yaw is the only force of that type that you can see implemented.
If tried before, was this prior to twisty sticks becoming common, making widely accessible hardware less of a problem?
Is the huge pile of wrecked vintage aircraft that ground looped on takeoff just too sad to see?
Of course some of you that know what I fly will probably see the nefarious reason for my question.
Turn the "auto take off" off and turn the "combat trim" off and you will have the effects you are looking for. As for the "engine management" a number of pilots have pointed out that there isn't that much involved and wouldn't add anything to the game. HTC has also stated that they will not add things like engine management or other things that are just button pushes for the sake of pushing buttons.
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You could have a high(er) fidelity flight "sim" just by making pos/(and especially)neg G forces actually DO something... and bringing BACK consequences for stick stirring.
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If engine management were modeled, about 75% of the "pilots" of aces high would burn up the engine on every flight.
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If engine management were modeled, about 75% of the "pilots" of aces high would burn up the engine on every flight.
I'd be in that 75%....I just throw a brick on the accelerator and go when flying to a fight...kinda like a plate race :D.
Seriously though....and bear in mind I'm NOT a pilot so the only engine management I know refers to vehicles and lawnmowers....but wouldn't it basically mean you couldn't run around full throttle at will for extended periods? Wouldn't that mean that you would then be taking longer to get to where you are going (the fight)? I'm not really for anything that increases the mundane part of the game....I'm in it for the action...not the commute to the action. I'm sure there is more to engine management than just throttle but like I said I'm not a pilot. What would be the point other than making the game more "busy"?
Not being sarcastic with this post btw....the above is just my understanding of adding more detailed engine management. From my perspective if I wanted this I would just go play something like a dedicated flight simulator vs a combat flight simulator.
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If engine management were modeled, about 75% of the "pilots" of aces high would burn up the engine on every flight.
Engine management was not nearly as finicky as you think. The guys who flew these things were mostly 18 to 24 year olds who were smart guys, but certainly not super humans. The Spit V pilot who ran WEP for 30 minutes didn't burn his engine out. The P-38 pilot whoswho said no WWII fighter had enough power and in combat he just put the engines to full and left them there didn't burn up his engines and Saburo Sakai didn't burn out his Zero's engine running full power in his fight against those fifteen Hellcats.
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I'm also not a pilot...
But I use the throttle and RPM to conserve fuel when I need to, and use the throttle during a fight depending on my needs. I do NOT feel the need to adjust the fuel mix (lean/rich) based on altitude or whatever else is done "for real", or any other "engine management" buttons need to be pushed at certain times based on "what is done in real life".
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Why do you think those effects are missing? :headscratch:
Notice that I carefully did not state that those effects were missing, just that manual rudder inputs to correct for them are not required.
You can see adverse yaw at work by watching the ball as you roll into a turn. Rudder input in the same direction as the aileron is required to keep the ball centered. But, as you stop the roll and maintain the bank angle instead of some rudder required to keep coordinated flight 0 rudder input is required.
I do not use auto-takeoff or combat trim. From everything I've read you could not sit a the end of the runway, slam a P51s engine into WEP, and not expect a hasty runway departure despite full rudder input.
Now as you accelerate down the runway when the tail comes up gyroscopic effects start mercilessly pulling your nose a whole new direction, which just about the time you've got the corrected rudder input dialed in your in a stable stance again and gyroscopic effects have changed again.
But lets say you managed to get it off the ground and into a climb attitude. IRL right rudder pressure would be required to over come the p-factor trying to pull the nose around to the left. That same (or more) rudder pressure would be required anytime your dogfighting with the stall warning going off, since both stall and p-factor are dependent on angle of attack.
I'm really not advocating placing a huge hurdle of just being able to take off into the game, I was just trying to illustrate the complicated effects that we don't have to correct for as virtual pilots. However, having to correct for p-factor and having to keep turns coordinated or incur a drag penalty would add an interesting element to those interested in good stick and rudder work in addition to ACM skill.
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Notice that I carefully did not state that those effects were missing, just that manual rudder inputs to correct for them are not required.
Hmmm. I find just the opposite, if you don't use rudder in game the airplane will wander.
You can see adverse yaw at work by watching the ball as you roll into a turn. Rudder input in the same direction as the aileron is required to keep the ball centered. But, as you stop the roll and maintain the bank angle instead of some rudder required to keep coordinated flight 0 rudder input is required.
Which is how it should be. The rudder counters the drag from the down deflected aileron, once in the bank with ailerons neutral there is no longer a need for rudder. Bank turns the airplane, not the rudder.
From everything I've read you could not sit a the end of the runway, slam a P51s engine into WEP, and not expect a hasty runway departure despite full rudder input.
I've found over the years that many things are a bit exaggerated in aviation. I expect you would not lose control of the airplane. You'd have to tap some brake and stay right on top of her but no reason to think you'd go screaming off the side as most people believe.
Now as you accelerate down the runway when the tail comes up gyroscopic effects start mercilessly pulling your nose a whole new direction, which just about the time you've got the corrected rudder input dialed in your in a stable stance again and gyroscopic effects have changed again.
Do you know which way your nose would be pulled? If the prop turns clockwise from the cockpit it will go left. Easily countered and is done reflexively. Hours of flying makes it a habit -- when the throttle goes forward your right foot presses some rudder -- when the stick comes forward to lower the nose you tap in a bit of rudder -- end result the nose never wiggles because as an experienced pilot you anticipate these things a fix 'em before they happen.
I'm a bit surprised you're saying these things aren't present in game. I'm constantly tweaking trim (I fly a lot using manual trim) when flying. Are you a pilot in real life?
This is a game, the airplanes do not fly like real airplanes -- we're limited by the equipment we fly on. I agree that many wouldn't be able to get the airplane from the hangar to the runway if things were made "real enough", but AH does a pretty good job of giving the impression of what it's like flying the airplanes.
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Notice that I carefully did not state that those effects were missing, just that manual rudder inputs to correct for them are not required.
You can see adverse yaw at work by watching the ball as you roll into a turn. Rudder input in the same direction as the aileron is required to keep the ball centered. But, as you stop the roll and maintain the bank angle instead of some rudder required to keep coordinated flight 0 rudder input is required.
I do not use auto-takeoff or combat trim. From everything I've read you could not sit a the end of the runway, slam a P51s engine into WEP, and not expect a hasty runway departure despite full rudder input.
Now as you accelerate down the runway when the tail comes up gyroscopic effects start mercilessly pulling your nose a whole new direction, which just about the time you've got the corrected rudder input dialed in your in a stable stance again and gyroscopic effects have changed again.
But lets say you managed to get it off the ground and into a climb attitude. IRL right rudder pressure would be required to over come the p-factor trying to pull the nose around to the left. That same (or more) rudder pressure would be required anytime your dogfighting with the stall warning going off, since both stall and p-factor are dependent on angle of attack.
I'm really not advocating placing a huge hurdle of just being able to take off into the game, I was just trying to illustrate the complicated effects that we don't have to correct for as virtual pilots. However, having to correct for p-factor and having to keep turns coordinated or incur a drag penalty would add an interesting element to those interested in good stick and rudder work in addition to ACM skill.
I think your reading has given you the idea that gyroscopic precession and P-factor are stronger and more noticable then they actually are. All forces are applied to the CG and some forces have similar vectors which can make it difficult to assess any one force. The main torque you notice in takeoff and flight is the effect of the spiral slipstream from the prop twisting the fuselage and pushing the rudder over. As Colmbo noted, adverse yaw occurs from rolling not from turning, you may need a little rudder in the turn but not as much as when rolling into and out of the turn.
Gyroscopic precession is noticable when you push the nose down or pull up sharply, you'll see a little yaw as a result. P-factor is hard to notice because the propwash torque and gyroscopic precession can mask it but Hitech says it's in there and we have no reason to doubt it.
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I think your reading has given you the idea that gyroscopic precession and P-factor are stronger and more noticable then they actually are. All forces are applied to the CG and some forces have similar vectors which can make it difficult to assess any one force. The main torque you notice in takeoff and flight is the effect of the spiral slipstream from the prop twisting the fuselage and pushing the rudder over. As Colmbo noted, adverse yaw occurs from rolling not from turning, you may need a little rudder in the turn but not as much as when rolling into and out of the turn.
Gyroscopic precession is noticable when you push the nose down or pull up sharply, you'll see a little yaw as a result. P-factor is hard to notice because the propwash torque and gyroscopic precession can mask it but Hitech says it's in there and we have no reason to doubt it.
Can you/would you mind further expounding upon rudder and rolling for us newbs? I get the concept, but I guess application is the trick... is this the same as "step on the ball"?
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...once in the bank with ailerons neutral there is no longer a need for rudder.
Wrong. Significantly less then for adverse yaw correction, but certainly not zero and increases with bank angle. (also depends on wingspan and aileron input required to maintain bank angle)
Are you a pilot in real life?
Yes. Rather low time SEL private pilot with zero tail-dragger but a lot of sailplane time where smooth coordinated flight really matters and you are very active on the rudders.
I'm a bit surprised you're saying these things aren't present in game.
Again I'm not saying they are not present, just that they are automatically corrected for (to varying degrees).
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Can you/would you mind further expounding upon rudder and rolling for us newbs? I get the concept, but I guess application is the trick... is this the same as "step on the ball"?
Yes, stepping on the ball is correct. You use rudder as you roll to correct adverse yaw.You can also use it to improve your roll rate.
Yes. Rather low time SEL private pilot with zero tail-dragger but a lot of sailplane time where smooth coordinated flight really matters and you are very active on the rudders.
Again I'm not saying they are not present, just that they are automatically corrected for (to varying degrees).
I don't believe anything is automatically corrected for. If you're used to the rudder work in a sailplane you might want to try the TA-152. It's high aspect wing requires noticably more rudder work then any other aircraft in AH.
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...P-factor is hard to notice because the propwash torque and gyroscopic precession can mask it but Hitech says it's in there and we have no reason to doubt it.
Thanks that is the type of Hitech info I was really after.
But the question is has an arena been tried without automatic corrections or damping of these effects applied?
Just a few notes.
Not only reading.
Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.
You can sum forces about any point you desire, the tip of the spinner, the pilot's belly button, 25% MAC @ BL0, mars, or even the C.G., any force induces a moment about that point equal to the force times the perpendicular distance. Just saying that the forces don't actually act through the CG that is just a sometimes convenient place to sum them about. But since the CG tends to change position it isn't always the best place.
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Thanks that is the type of Hitech info I was really after.
But the question is has an arena been tried without automatic corrections or damping of these effects applied?
Just a few notes.
Not only reading.
Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.
You can sum forces about any point you desire, the tip of the spinner, the pilot's belly button, 25% MAC @ BL0, mars, or even the C.G., any force induces a moment about that point equal to the force times the perpendicular distance. Just saying that the forces don't actually act through the CG that is just a sometimes convenient place to sum them about. But since the CG tends to change position it isn't always the best place.
There is NOT any auto damping of effects. The only slight issue is combat trim which simply puts in rudder trim based on your speed, if you disable combat trim you should see yourself out of rudder trim based on speed.
HiTech
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Engine management was not nearly as finicky as you think. The guys who flew these things were mostly 18 to 24 year olds who were smart guys, but certainly not super humans. The Spit V pilot who ran WEP for 30 minutes didn't burn his engine out. The P-38 pilot whoswho said no WWII fighter had enough power and in combat he just put the engines to full and left them there didn't burn up his engines and Saburo Sakai didn't burn out his Zero's engine running full power in his fight against those fifteen Hellcats.
IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.
Edit: here it is:
20th Fighter Group Headquarters
APO 637 U.S. Army
(E-2)
3 June 1944
Subject: P-38 Airplane in Combat.
To: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.
1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.
2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.
3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.
4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.
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IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.
Yup, and the P-38 was unusually bad about that while the Fw190s with the BMW engine were unusually good about it. In AH terms that is 10 seconds of button presses in a certain, easily remembered pattern, after which you don't fiddle with the controls. The guys saying we'd all fry our engines are imagining constantly tweaking the engines throughout the combat.
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There is NOT any auto damping of effects. The only slight issue is combat trim which simply puts in rudder trim based on your speed, if you disable combat trim you should see yourself out of rudder trim based on speed.
HiTech
Oh no I invoked the name of Mars, the god of war, and he awakes. Its probably not good to anger him with pesky questions from the insignificant mortal flea that I am. But you just know I will.
So all effects are included, no auto dampening... but then what allows me to hold a slow speed at full power attitude with minimal rudder in a F4U-1D or hold a 60deg bank in a P38 (which at 52' is just slightly wider span as a 15m standard class sailplane and all those pesky engine related turning effects cancelling out) and have the ball centered with no rudder.
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IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.
A lot of that 10 seconds was eaten up doing things other than power management.
Surprised at his comment about the mixture controls, they are just forward of the throttle...would seem to be easy to just push them both forward with one motion. The prop controls in the B-17 mixture controls in both the -17 and -24 were the same type handles...have many times grabbed all four and made changes.
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Hmmm. I find just the opposite, if you don't use rudder in game the airplane will wander.
Which is how it should be. The rudder counters the drag from the down deflected aileron, once in the bank with ailerons neutral there is no longer a need for rudder. Bank turns the airplane, not the rudder.
I've found over the years that many things are a bit exaggerated in aviation. I expect you would not lose control of the airplane. You'd have to tap some brake and stay right on top of her but no reason to think you'd go screaming off the side as most people believe.
Do you know which way your nose would be pulled? If the prop turns clockwise from the cockpit it will go left. Easily countered and is done reflexively. Hours of flying makes it a habit -- when the throttle goes forward your right foot presses some rudder -- when the stick comes forward to lower the nose you tap in a bit of rudder -- end result the nose never wiggles because as an experienced pilot you anticipate these things a fix 'em before they happen.
I'm a bit surprised you're saying these things aren't present in game. I'm constantly tweaking trim (I fly a lot using manual trim) when flying. Are you a pilot in real life?
This is a game, the airplanes do not fly like real airplanes -- we're limited by the equipment we fly on. I agree that many wouldn't be able to get the airplane from the hangar to the runway if things were made "real enough", but AH does a pretty good job of giving the impression of what it's like flying the airplanes.
Ahh flight school. "right rudder" "I got it" "Right Rudder" "I Got It" "RIGHT RUDDER" "I GOT IT!!" "that wasnt bad for your first time.." "Thanks!"
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A lot of that 10 seconds was eaten up doing things other than power management.
Surprised at his comment about the mixture controls, they are just forward of the throttle...would seem to be easy to just push them both forward with one motion. The prop controls in the B-17 mixture controls in both the -17 and -24 were the same type handles...have many times grabbed all four and made changes.
Part of it was non-engine management, true, but the management had to be done in a hurry with all these steps and panicking or forgetting something could lead to engine destruction. Imagine having to repeat a series of adjustments (not just key presses) after being check 6'ed... k/d would suffer suffice to say.
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Part of it was non-engine management, true, but the management had to be done in a hurry with all these steps and panicking or forgetting something could lead to engine destruction. Imagine having to repeat a series of adjustments (not just key presses) after being check 6'ed... k/d would suffer suffice to say.
Yeah, but a lot of that stuff can be done as you're in the break -- like getting rid of the external tanks. Pushing the throttle up without increasing RPM won't instantly blow an engine -- one time in the B-24 I brought all four props back to low RPM while at climb power (horrible brain fart, meant to close the cowl flaps, grabbed the wrong set of 4 identical toggle switches) -- other than making some uncomfortable sounds all 4 engines held up and continued to run for the rest of the season.
There is no doubt however that high cockpit workload is bad for your health in a hostile environment -- be it enemy fighters or bad weather approaches. Those old airplanes were not "ergonomic" in their layout.
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Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.
You have that backwards. It's because they're in the same direction and combine that you won't be able to notice how much yaw is specifically from P-factor.
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I took a B29* up stabilized it in level flight then shut off the noisy trouble making engines. Entered a steep bank and sure enough some rudder was needed to keep coordinated flight either direction.
So dampened (in a engineering sense) was a very poor choice of words for flight model modification of yaw effects for play in the arenas.
How about:
Scaled or attenuated forces?
*AHS (Aces High Society) certifies that no virtual B29s were harmed in the making of these tests.
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I took a B29* up stabilized it in level flight then shut off the noisy trouble making engines. Entered a steep bank and sure enough some rudder was needed to keep coordinated flight either direction.
So dampened (in a engineering sense) was a very poor choice of words for flight model modification of yaw effects for play in the arenas.
How about:
Scaled or attenuated forces?
*AHS (Aces High Society) certifies that no virtual B29s were harmed in the making of these tests.
Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct in your opinion?
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Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct in your opinion?
If the planes flew like gliders then he'd be happy. :P
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Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct in your opinion?
What Hitech said is:
There is NOT any auto damping of effects
I have no reason to doubt him and dropped that line of inquiry. However, no auto damping (or auto correction) does not remove the possibility of scaling or attenuation of the yaw forces.
I'm willing to learn and test. I've double check that yes auto takeoff is not checked (hard to miss) and combat trim is off. I've blasted off using Wep in a F4U-D1 requiring modest right rudder input. I've noticed that yes some rudder correction is required when the the tail lifts and then again when it settled into a two point stance. I've also set the .target at 30deg altitude and used it as a solid reference for a slow speed full power climb attitude that requires surprisingly little rudder input (17% of half range with trim zeroed, no axis scaling) to hold considering the large 13' diameter propeller. I've also tried the RV8 and it took a bit more rudder to hold it in a similar attitude. I've also tried the B29 test I noted above.
I'm not debating whether this is appropriate for the regular arenas. What I am asking is if since twisty sticks have become common and numerous experienced AH pilots have rudder controls if an arena has been tried that gives those pilots the option to challenge both the flying skills along with their ACM.
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If the planes flew like gliders then he'd be happy. :P
Well there is the Me163 which makes me VERY happy. :rock
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What Hitech said is:
I have no reason to doubt him and dropped that line of inquiry. However, no auto damping (or auto correction) does not remove the possibility of scaling or attenuation of the yaw forces.
I'm willing to learn and test. I've double check that yes auto takeoff is not checked (hard to miss) and combat trim is off. I've blasted off using Wep in a F4U-D1 requiring modest right rudder input. I've noticed that yes some rudder correction is required when the the tail lifts and then again when it settled into a two point stance. I've also set the .target at 30deg altitude and used it as a solid reference for a slow speed full power climb attitude that requires surprisingly little rudder input (17% of half range with trim zeroed, no axis scaling) to hold considering the large 13' diameter propeller. I've also tried the RV8 and it took a bit more rudder to hold it in a similar attitude. I've also tried the B29 test I noted above.
I'm not debating whether this is appropriate for the regular arenas. What I am asking is if since twisty sticks have become common and numerous experienced AH pilots have rudder controls if an arena has been tried that gives those pilots the option to challenge both the flying skills along with their ACM.
Hitech answered your question and you decided that rephrasing the same question means that he didn't. So how much rudder input should have been required? All you're saying so far is that you don't know what it should be but you think it's not right as it is. Do you expect a plastic game controller to feel like flying a real aircraft? You haven't shown anything wrong with the flight model or any area where it could be improved. You've just posted that flying a computer simulation is easier than flying a real aircraft.
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Engine management was not nearly as finicky as you think. The guys who flew these things were mostly 18 to 24 year olds who were smart guys, but certainly not super humans. The Spit V pilot who ran WEP for 30 minutes didn't burn his engine out. The P-38 pilot whoswho said no WWII fighter had enough power and in combat he just put the engines to full and left them there didn't burn up his engines and Saburo Sakai didn't burn out his Zero's engine running full power in his fight against those fifteen Hellcats.
If I recall correctly, Air fuel ratio, and Spark timing were Adjustable by the pilot. The Spark setting for max power would vary with Boost pressure, inlet air temprature, Air fuel ratio, and coolant temp. All of those factors vary with altidude. Most pilots would pick settings that allowed thier plane to run Wide Open Throttle and not detonate, but that was not Max rated power. To get there would require tweeking. The onset of Knock and detonation could be heard by the pilot and corrections could be make. I would agree that A:F was probably adjusted more at startup and for saving gas on long trips. But Spark timing is not something you could just set and forget, if you want to run Max power at different boost levels.
I've often wondered if when you see dog fights of bud Andersen roping a 109 in a Pony B that were close to equal E-state prior to the rope attempt, whether things like engine management came into play. Perhaps he was cooler under fire and set his engine up during the manuever for max performance, where the German, gambled that his current setting would be enough, and that taking his eye off the target was a greater risk than trying to squeak out a another 50 HP was. Or perhaps Andersen got lucky and he was in the sweet spot for his pony where as the German wasn't.
It could be something that would add realism, and new demention to the game just the way flaps do. Proper use of flaps and throttle will make your plane turn better, depending on the speed, and an ace pilot will learn to optimize those setting to get max performance out of his aircraft. A little engine management would do that also. For example many of the planes had controls to enable/control the superchargers. Imagine if you had to watch and throw the lever to get your second stage to engage at the proper alt in your T-Bolt, or Spitfire.
I think if the performance optimization actions could be added in a way like flap operation, I would be for it. :aok
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
In the game I find I can rarely be sure my turns are coordinated, simply because I'm rarely looking out the front of the cockpit when I'm turning, and so can't see the ball.
In real life I thought we all tried very hard to stay coordinated except when deliberately slipping on an approach, but I read in this month's Rod Machado column that this may not be so:
"During a lecture on stick-and-rudder flying to several hundred pilots last year at AirVenture, one fellow informed the group that the CFIs at his FBO insist that all pilots keep their feet on the floorboard during all traffic pattern operations. Its the total defeat of the feet. While failing to emphasize proper rudder and aileron coordination might just be lazy teaching, requiring that pilots not use the pedals in the pattern suggests a nearly complete lack of awareness about their function. Unfortunately, more than a few instructors make a similar recommendation. Yikes!"
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2013/january/license.html
- oldman
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For example many of the planes had controls to enable/control the superchargers. Imagine if you had to watch and throw the lever to get your second stage to engage at the proper alt in your T-Bolt, or Spitfire.
But you didn't have to do that as the Merlin's supercharger worked automatically (at least it did in Mossies so I can't fathom why it wouldn't in Spits). There may have been a way to manually do it as well, but it was normally automatic. In Mossies it could cause problems while climbing out as it wasn't uncommon for the engines to go to the second stage at altitudes hundreds of feet apart, causing a sudden imbalance of power as the first engine to do so gained power.
The Thunderbolt doesn't have a supercharger with a stage one or stage two. It has a turbocharger.
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
Not I ..... For certain situations/conditions I feel it to be appropriate to use/fly in a coordinated
flight manner... but more often then not when it comes to AH aerial combat, I find it not important
enough to be at the top of my list ... To "step on the ball" per say....
SA
E management
are much more important along with and including using uncoordinated flying
my 2 cents worth
TC
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
Ignoring the ball since 2005.
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In retrospect I knew I should have left "engine management" out. There is just such a huge number of different basic systems and versions of systems, and then systems assembled from combinations of those systems that it would be a nightmare not only for Hitech to implement but for pilots jumping from plane to plane.
But I'm a study sim kind of guy. I like button and switch simulators, studying the manuals and testing my ability to use what I've learned. But that in depth study really limits your plane choices. Not what I'm really looking for when I fly AH.
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Ignoring the ball since 2005.
Thank you. That is exactly the point of the whole topic.
Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
I must admit in the MA I use the rudder more often to uncoordinate the flight then to keep it coordinated. Really letting my feet get lazy and stupid. In the SEA racing league they I try very, very hard to keep every tiny stick movement coordinated and it can really make a significant difference.
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But you didn't have to do that as the Merlin's supercharger worked automatically (at least it did in Mossies so I can't fathom why it wouldn't in Spits). There may have been a way to manually do it as well, but it was normally automatic. In Mossies it could cause problems while climbing out as it wasn't uncommon for the engines to go to the second stage at altitudes hundreds of feet apart, causing a sudden imbalance of power as the first engine to do so gained power.
The Thunderbolt doesn't have a supercharger with a stage one or stage two. It has a turbocharger.
A turbocharger is a supercharger. The Thunderbolt has an engine (or first stage) mechanical supercharger that is driven by the engine. Exhaust gases run a Turbo-supercharger that works at higher altitude to raise the low pressure air to sea level pressure to be fed into the engine-stage mechanical supercharger that raises to above sea level pressures to effectively inclease the engine displacement. If you look at the control levers for the P-47, there is a level for the supercharger. I will have to research what it did. It may well have had an automatic mode. But some planes I think, required the second stage Superchargers to be "engaged". I'll see if I can figure out which ones. :salute
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:huh :huh :huh Heya DoRight! Hope to see you in the MAs soon. We would love for you to come back to the races on Tues nights! :airplane: :banana: :airplane: :banana: :airplane: :banana: :airplane: :banana: :airplane: :banana:
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Can i come too Kev? Now thta I finally got a new stick that doesnt go out of coalibratin every 2.35 nanoseconds I was thinking of doing a few myself.
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
All of my turns are coordinated.
ack-ack
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If I recall correctly, Air fuel ratio, and Spark timing were Adjustable by the pilot.
I don't know of any aircraft in which the pilot can adjust spark timing with the exception of some systems that retarded the spark to make starting easier. Once started you have no control on spark advance.
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Perhaps he was cooler under fire and set his engine up during the manuever for max performance,
Pretty easy to be "cool"....just set mixture for auto-rich, put the prop control all the way to high RPM and jam the throttle forward. You're not going to be putzing around with prop RPM or mixture since there is no reason to change them during the fight.
Guys tend to way over-think power management in these airplanes --- all the levers forward = go fast.....all the levers back = go slow....and it's almost that simple.
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
I fly in game the same way I fly real-life. I use "cues" to keep the flight coordinated with an occasional peek at the ball to double-check. It's much easier real life since your butt tells you if your slipping/skidding.
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Pretty easy to be "cool"....just set mixture for auto-rich, put the prop control all the way to high RPM and jam the throttle forward. You're not going to be putzing around with prop RPM or mixture since there is no reason to change them during the fight.
Guys tend to way over-think power management in these airplanes --- all the levers forward = go fast.....all the levers back = go slow....and it's almost that simple.
I'm sure the goal was to make it that way. But range and fuel consumption were important, so I think there were adjustments. I was sure spark advance was one, but I'm looking into it. Did you fly any of the WWII birds? :salute
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Not I ..... For certain situations/conditions I feel it to be appropriate to use/fly in a coordinated
flight manner... but more often then not when it comes to AH aerial combat, I find it not important
enough to be at the top of my list ... To "step on the ball" per say....
SA
E management
are much more important along with and including using uncoordinated flying
my 2 cents worth
TC
I tend to agree, TC. I don't take notice if I'm coordinated when I'm dogfighting, but I do when I'm putzing along to and from the fights. I've always wondered, even back to the early AW days, if somebody who was naturally making coordinated turns would have an advantage against somebody making uncoordinated turns, say in the same airplane, same gas. In other words, a duel setting.
Thoughts guys, for those that fly that way?
Akak, with your CH stuff, do you scale or dampen the pedals? I get a decent 'jump', for lack of a better word, when I give the slightest rudder, so it's very hard to make minute rudder inputs, even with scaling or dampening.
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As colmbo said, real life coordinated flight is WAY easier. Especially if you fly lots of tail dragger where your feet get used to playing the happy feet dance on the occasional gusty landing.
I never even think about flying coordinated in the RV, because your feet and but sorta get tied together where you are automatically correct rudder with out any thought. Infact I have the opposite problem, some days on cross country my feet will be getting sore, and I realize I have had them clamped to the rudders because of the fish tailing the RV likes to do in slight turbulence.
Oldman, did they say what the feet on floor reason was? Is it possible it was heals on floor?
HiTech
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Well not really getting much buy in on the arena idea so, for my part I think I'll drop it for now.
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Akak, with your CH stuff, do you scale or dampen the pedals? I get a decent 'jump', for lack of a better word, when I give the slightest rudder, so it's very hard to make minute rudder inputs, even with scaling or dampening.
I have the rudders slightly scaled, otherwise they're a tad sensative to minute rudder inputs.
ack-ack
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Thank you. That is exactly the point of the whole topic.
You're confusing looking at the ball with needing and using rudder control. Your point was that the flight model
adjusts so you don't need full normal rudder control. That is false.
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Oldman, did they say what the feet on floor reason was? Is it possible it was heals on floor?
Machado says:
"The thinking behind this technique is that a pilot is less likely to skid the airplane (and potentially induce a spin) if only aileron is used to make turns in the pattern. Yes, he or she will certainly slip during turns and slips are far less conducive to spinning. Believing this technique makes a pilot safer, however, is like believing that Washington, D.C., runs on batteries. The problem with this type of thinking is that there is actually very little thinking taking place."
And he continues:
"Think about this. Without compensating for the airplanes power-induced left turning tendency on climbout, the nose yaws and the airplane begins a roll to the left. Adding right aileron (and no right rudder) to stop the left roll yaws the nose further left, initially inducing a skid, not a slip. Its clear that some pilots are completely unaware that theyve lost their stick-and-rudder skills when they must rely on the Coriolis force to keep their airplanes aligned with the runway centerline on climbout.
No, we should not keep our feet on the floorboard during pattern operations, or when maneuvering an airplane. Then again, unless we know what were missing, we simply wont miss it when its gone..."
Heels-on-the-floor is something we all were taught to do on takeoff, so as not to accidentally hit one or both brakes as the plane accelerates.
- oldman
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
Some accounts of WW2 pilots suggest they didn't. The work load and SA was already too much in the combat zone and as others have said, RL flying is much more seat of the pants.
I'll bet if ever asked, guys like Yeager and Hoover would tell you they only looked at the ball if they were flying instrument.
In game I rarely look at the ball unless I'm haulin ass, so that I know I'm not carrying any extra drag.
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Some accounts of WW2 pilots suggest they didn't. The work load and SA was already too much in the combat zone and as others have said, RL flying is much more seat of the pants.
I'll bet if ever asked, guys like Yeager and Hoover would tell you they only looked at the ball if they were flying instrument.
In game I rarely look at the ball unless I'm haulin ass, so that I know I'm not carrying any extra drag.
With "seat of the pants" flying an experienced pilot knows if he's coordinated without looking at the ball. Even in AH where you can't feel a lack of coordination you can go by the movement of the nose of the aircraft as you start and finish a turn.
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I'm sure the goal was to make it that way. But range and fuel consumption were important, so I think there were adjustments. I was sure spark advance was one, but I'm looking into it. Did you fly any of the WWII birds? :salute
I'm type-rated (pilot in command) in the B-24 with a little over 300 hours in it, I flew co-pilot in the B-17 (a little over 300 hours). I've got 1 hour in a Mustang and about 3 hours in the T-6.
Trust me, in a fight with the airplane it'll be done as I noted with throttle being the only adjustment during the fight. Nothing to gain by messing with mixture and RPM.
Setting up for cruise it's just as easy -- throttle (manifold pressure) and RPM are adjusted to the appropriate cruise setting (something that is in the aircraft manual - not something you need to "tweak" and the mixture is set to "Auto Lean". The pressure carbs used on the aircraft were pretty good at adjusting for altitude, certainly much better than light aircraft with simple induction systems where you have to manually lean using EGT or your ear.
Aviation was still pretty new during WWII, there was a lot they didn't know then that we know now. (The books for the B-17 and B-24 do not address minimum safe engine out speeds. The B-24 book has the statement "This shouldn't happen to a dog" when talking about losing two engines on takeoff.) The operating books for the aircraft left a lot of info out compared to what a modern POH has in it so there would be times (such as Lindberg helping the guys extend range in the Pacific) where some adjustments would be made to improve performance.
There is no spark advance adjustment on any aircraft I know of -- have never heard of it except on I think some WWI aircraft or other aircraft from the very early years of aviation.
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Some accounts of WW2 pilots suggest they didn't. The work load and SA was already too much in the combat zone and as others have said, RL flying is much more seat of the pants.
I'll bet if ever asked, guys like Yeager and Hoover would tell you they only looked at the ball if they were flying instrument.
In game I rarely look at the ball unless I'm haulin ass, so that I know I'm not carrying any extra drag.
Yeager and Hoover would tell you that they did fly coordinated and that they didn't need to look at the ball to keep it centered. Real life flying as so many more cues than computer sim flying -- it is in many ways much easier real life than in a sim.
The term "seat of the pants" comes from the feeling you get in your butt when the ball is out of center -- it tries to slide you to one side or the other of your seat. With experience it becomes automatic to adjust for it. I flew some acro with a guy named Kevin Kegin in his SNJ (T-6). He has a lot of time in a Texan and I was amazed to notice that the ball never moved when he was flying, it just stayed stuck between the lines...so much so that I actually tapped the gauge thinking it was stuck for real. Once I started flying I confirmed the ball worked correctly because I was slapping it off the sides while rolling around the sky. Kevin is one of those guys that is a natural stick, he is so friggen smooth it made me feel like a pre-solo student -- and I'm not a bad stick and rudder guy.
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With "seat of the pants" flying an experienced pilot knows if he's coordinated without looking at the ball. Even in AH where you can't feel a lack of coordination you can go by the movement of the nose of the aircraft as you start and finish a turn.
We have a winner!!
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... it just stayed stuck between the lines...so much so that I actually tapped the gauge thinking it was stuck for real. Once I started flying I confirmed the ball worked correctly because I was slapping it off the sides while rolling around the sky. Kevin is one of those guys that is a natural stick, he is so friggen smooth it made me feel like a pre-solo student -- and I'm not a bad stick and rudder guy.
I had a very similar experience with a old timer in a Stearman doing loops and rolls, that damn ball never moved.
But he didn't get to be an old timer with the ball glued in place by flying seat of his pants. The flying seat of his pants came from lots of training with coordination maneuvers and watching the point on the horizon and the ball until his stick and rudder movements became ingrained. (With constant reminders from his instructors)
It's a good feeling when you finally keep that point and ball steady. It's a great feeling when you realize you been keeping it coordinated without really concentrating on it.
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With "seat of the pants" flying an experienced pilot knows if he's coordinated without looking at the ball. Even in AH where you can't feel a lack of coordination you can go by the movement of the nose of the aircraft as you start and finish a turn.
I didnt say otherwise. That's the point I was making.
Yeager and Hoover would tell you that they did fly coordinated and that they didn't need to look at the ball to keep it centered. Real life flying as so many more cues than computer sim flying -- it is in many ways much easier real life than in a sim.
The term "seat of the pants" comes from the feeling you get in your butt when the ball is out of center -- it tries to slide you to one side or the other of your seat. With experience it becomes automatic to adjust for it. I flew some acro with a guy named Kevin Kegin in his SNJ (T-6). He has a lot of time in a Texan and I was amazed to notice that the ball never moved when he was flying, it just stayed stuck between the lines...so much so that I actually tapped the gauge thinking it was stuck for real. Once I started flying I confirmed the ball worked correctly because I was slapping it off the sides while rolling around the sky. Kevin is one of those guys that is a natural stick, he is so friggen smooth it made me feel like a pre-solo student -- and I'm not a bad stick and rudder guy.
Again this was the point I was making. I'm familiar with the origin of the term. I've been there. Your body feels any motion that is in an unusual plane and develops an instinctive feel. It's actually not that hard to learn.
When I made the comment you were responding to I had the kind of dogfights when coordinated flight goes out the window in mind. Where it was the last thing on the minds of the pilots. Even what might be considered the poorer pilots had enough feel for it they didn't need to waste precious SA on the ball, though some might still habitually check it.
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I am not a pilot...I just play one in a online combat game............. :D
I do have a flight in a Super Decathlon....first time ever being in a real plane.....besides the body effects...it was very similar to AH....except the rudder peddles were much stiffer..
my question is what is the difference between "coordinated" turn and uncoordinated....by some of the replies I am guessing....keeping the ball centered while turning would be a "coordinated" turn and obviously if the ball has moved out of center it would be an uncoordinated turn?
I never pay attention to the ball ingame.
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I'm type-rated (pilot in command) in the B-24 with a little over 300 hours in it, I flew co-pilot in the B-17 (a little over 300 hours). I've got 1 hour in a Mustang and about 3 hours in the T-6.
Trust me, in a fight with the airplane it'll be done as I noted with throttle being the only adjustment during the fight. Nothing to gain by messing with mixture and RPM.
Setting up for cruise it's just as easy -- throttle (manifold pressure) and RPM are adjusted to the appropriate cruise setting (something that is in the aircraft manual - not something you need to "tweak" and the mixture is set to "Auto Lean". The pressure carbs used on the aircraft were pretty good at adjusting for altitude, certainly much better than light aircraft with simple induction systems where you have to manually lean using EGT or your ear.
Aviation was still pretty new during WWII, there was a lot they didn't know then that we know now. (The books for the B-17 and B-24 do not address minimum safe engine out speeds. The B-24 book has the statement "This shouldn't happen to a dog" when talking about losing two engines on takeoff.) The operating books for the aircraft left a lot of info out compared to what a modern POH has in it so there would be times (such as Lindberg helping the guys extend range in the Pacific) where some adjustments would be made to improve performance.
There is no spark advance adjustment on any aircraft I know of -- have never heard of it except on I think some WWI aircraft or other aircraft from the very early years of aviation.
Thanks for the info! :salute
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I am not a pilot...I just play one in a online combat game............. :D
I do have a flight in a Super Decathlon....first time ever being in a real plane.....besides the body effects...it was very similar to AH....except the rudder peddles were much stiffer..
my question is what is the difference between "coordinated" turn and uncoordinated....by some of the replies I am guessing....keeping the ball centered while turning would be a "coordinated" turn and obviously if the ball has moved out of center it would be an uncoordinated turn?
I never pay attention to the ball ingame.
You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.
In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.
If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.
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You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.
In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.
If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.
All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC. That is the major reason that most of us don't do coordinated turns. I have tried, but it is very hard and I have to focus entirely on the bubble and not at all on what is happening around me.
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All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC.
I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.
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I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.
I do it sitting in my chair in front of my PC all the time. It's easier than cleaning up the floor when my coffee mug slides off my desk. ;)
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All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC. That is the major reason that most of us don't do coordinated turns. I have tried, but it is very hard and I have to focus entirely on the bubble and not at all on what is happening around me.
There are visual cues you can use, which is what I do and after awhile you get a "feel" for it. YMMV.
ack-ack
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I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Not having any feedback other than the bubble under the gunsight makes it impossible to do intuitively and that is simply how I see it.
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simple, look at the turn & bank indicator when you turn. in RL you can feel it, in AH-land, you have to use your instruments. Also, if you stick to one ride after a while you develop muscle memory and you just intuitively give the right amount of rudder.
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Not having any feedback other than the bubble under the gunsight makes it impossible to do intuitively and that is simply how I see it.
That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions. You come in holding a slip to land you definitely feel that, and its uncomfortable. But the edge of the ball just kissing the line you really aren't going to feel. But to minimize drag, maximize performance, keep the instructor pleased, and take pride in your flying you learn not to accept that small deviation. Like holding an altitude, airspeed, heading, maintaining an attitude... all take a lot of focus when you are first learning but eventually become second nature.
But since you wish to agree to disagree. Take your excuses were you can find them.
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Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time. Real pilots and non-pilots alike.
:airplane: Uncoordinated turns, either slipping in the turn or skidding in the turn will "degrade" your airspeed much quicker than if you are coordinated though out the turn. That gives your opponent a "edge" on speed, so there fore you will find yourself at a disadvantage in ACM's! To develope your coordination in flying stick and rudder aircraft, go into the training arena or a rear base away from the front lines, level at some altitude, say, 5,000 feet, then roll your aircraft from straight and level to 45 degrees bank to the left, then immediately roll back to the right to a 45 degree bank. Doing this will develope your coordinated flight at a much quicker pace, than just flying around in the game and wondering if you are doing things correctly. While I know this is just a "game", if you want to fly your aircraft correctly, it takes a little bit of training!
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coordinated turn = preserve e
cross stick turn = blow e
both are useful, depending on what the situation calls
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You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.
In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.
If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.
cc that...great description thanx :aok
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That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions.
Yes, but you have to be looking at it whereas you can look elsewhere and still feel an uncoordinated turn.
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That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions. You come in holding a slip to land you definitely feel that, and its uncomfortable. But the edge of the ball just kissing the line you really aren't going to feel. But to minimize drag, maximize performance, keep the instructor pleased, and take pride in your flying you learn not to accept that small deviation. Like holding an altitude, airspeed, heading, maintaining an attitude... all take a lot of focus when you are first learning but eventually become second nature.
Very true.
Uncoordinated turns, either slipping in the turn or skidding in the turn will "degrade" your airspeed much quicker than if you are coordinated though out the turn. That gives your opponent a "edge" on speed, so there fore you will find yourself at a disadvantage in ACM's!
Not in every situation, it is often used in game to gain an angles advantage. The speed you lose is less important.
To develope your coordination in flying stick and rudder aircraft, go into the training arena or a rear base away from the front lines, level at some altitude, say, 5,000 feet, then roll your aircraft from straight and level to 45 degrees bank to the left, then immediately roll back to the right to a 45 degree bank. Doing this will develope your coordinated flight at a much quicker pace, than just flying around in the game and wondering if you are doing things correctly. While I know this is just a "game", if you want to fly your aircraft correctly, it takes a little bit of training!
I doubt anyone can develop much instinct in flying coordinated in a game where you can't feel the motion. I am sure some can develop an approximation, but it can only be developed visually. That means flying around in an empty arena is only going to teach you to fly coordinated in that environment. When you go into a dogfight, probably more so in turning 1v1s, your visual cues are completely different than what you used to practice in an empty arena. The only way anyone will get good at combat flying in this game is by doing it.
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When you go into a dogfight, probably more so in turning 1v1s, your visual cues are completely different than what you used to practice in an empty arena.
No they aren't. The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen. Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.
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No they aren't. The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen. Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.
When your nose points at the empty sky what good will watching it do for you? I'm curious.
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When your nose points at the empty sky what good will watching it do for you? I'm curious.
You can turn your head. You don't need to look forward to see yaw.
The point is that you note the aircraft motion against a visual reference point. When you fly without an
outside visual reference, typically the horizon, landmark, or a cloud, then you use instruments.
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You can turn your head. You don't need to look forward to see yaw.
The point is that you note the aircraft motion against a visual reference point. When you fly without an
outside visual reference, typically the horizon, landmark, or a cloud, then you use instruments.
I don't know about you but when I'm doing ACM I'm concentrating 100% on the opposing plane / planes and have no time to watch for attitude.
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I don't know about you but when I'm doing ACM I'm concentrating 100% on the opposing plane / planes and have no time to watch for attitude.
Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot. :lol
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Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot. :lol
Keeping track on your position relating to the ground is whole different from trying to figure out your planes angle of attack from visual ques.
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Keeping track on your position relating to the ground is whole different from trying to figure out your planes angle of attack from visual ques.
We aren't talking about angle of attack, we're discussing the observation and correction of adverse yaw and you apparently, in direct opposition to your prior statement, use the same visual cues to track your attitude and avoid hitting the ground.
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We aren't talking about angle of attack, we're discussing the observation and correction of adverse yaw and you apparently, in direct opposition to your prior statement, use the same visual cues to track your attitude and avoid hitting the ground.
The yaw afaik affects the angle of attack which must be corrected to 'center the ball'. It's about 100x more demanding to try to judge the minute offset in the planes attitude only by the poor visual cues the game can offer than keeping track where you go in 3D space.
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I must be doing it wrong...my ball never stays center...never paid attention to it before...last time I flew I glanced at it....ya definitely not doing coordinated turns.... :rofl
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The yaw afaik affects the angle of attack which must be corrected to 'center the ball'. It's about 100x more demanding to try to judge the minute offset in the planes attitude only by the poor visual cues the game can offer than keeping track where you go in 3D space.
Yaw is easy to see whether it's from rolling i.e. adverse yaw, or from the rudder pedals. When you roll the rising wing and descending wing have different angles of attack giving them different amounts of lift and drag. You also have the aileron on the high wing adding drag. The correction for adverse yaw is adding rudder while rolling. You don't adjust the angle of attack, you just correct the yaw to point your aircraft in the direction you're flying.
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Yaw is easy to see whether it's from rolling i.e. adverse yaw, or from the rudder pedals. When you roll the rising wing and descending wing have different angles of attack giving them different amounts of lift and drag. You also have the aileron on the high wing adding drag. The correction for adverse yaw is adding rudder while rolling. You don't adjust the angle of attack, you just correct the yaw to point your aircraft in the direction you're flying.
If the ball wasn't there I wouldn't be able to tell from the screen that anything was wrong. In fact I've never cared much about it untill now when I broke my trusty Sidewinder twisting and turning at the same time :D
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No they aren't. The nose of the airplane is still out front of the windscreen. Watching what the nose does lets you know what rudder is needed.
The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.
Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.
Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.
Either that's not true or you fly into the ground a lot. :lol
Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.
I must be doing it wrong...my ball never stays center...never paid attention to it before...last time I flew I glanced at it....ya definitely not doing coordinated turns.... :rofl
Nah, you got it right again.
Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.
Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52
Translated to "screw the ball."
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If you fly a 109, you learn engine management, or die.
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The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.
Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.
Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.
Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.
Nah, you got it right again.
Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.
Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52
Translated to "screw the ball."
:D
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The example he used was rolling your wings and returning them. When we fight in this game we don't roll our wings and return them like this in a typical fight and as speed changes so does the amount of rudder needed to coordinate the exact same maneuver. In his example, the visual cue is your nose pointed at a mark on the horizon. In that case you could certainly see the yaw of the aircraft and could likely get good at a coordinated rolls.
Our 1v1 fights usually evolve into rolling scissors and as FLS said you are concentrating almost all of your attention on the other a/c. You are rolling inverted, back and constantly changing directions. The visual cue does not stay the same at all. Ever. There is almost no occasion to see yaw in your scenery and during the typical rolling scissors I encountered with better players, I have my rudder maxed out to one side or the other and never "see" the yaw if it is even evident because I am focused on the other guy.
Uncoordinated flight in AH is the norm in those types of fights so even if Katanaso changed his example to go to the TA and practice rolling scissors alone and learn to keep your a/c coordinated you would only learn to get your a kicked. It's not the same. Even forgetting the angles advantage your opponent would get on you if you flew that way in a fight, coordination changes with speed and we don't do relaxed, smooth rolling scissors in fights.
Perhaps you should rethink that comment and consider seeing this occasion as an epiphany that revealed what you haven't learned yet.
Nah, you got it right again.
Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.
Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52
Translated to "screw the ball."
You've misunderstood me, Colmbo, and Hartmann. :cheers:
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When your nose points at the empty sky what good will watching it do for you? I'm curious.
That's when you use the wingtips.
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Keeping track on your position relating to the ground is whole different from trying to figure out your planes angle of attack from visual ques.
AOA cues come thru the stick (buffet, control feel, etc). Yaw cues come from watching nose or wingtips (along with feeling it in your butt).
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AOA cues come thru the stick (buffet, control feel, etc). Yaw cues come from watching nose or wingtips (along with feeling it in your butt).
LOL I don't have any clue about what you're talking about. So you're spending your time watching at your wingtips while you fight someone? I pay no attention to _any_ part of my cartoon plane when I'm fighting. I just go along the learned performance envelope and stall effects. Maybe that's why I suck at AH.. who knows!
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LOL I don't have any clue about what you're talking about.
Maybe you should ask more questions instead of just disagreeing when you don't know what's being discussed. :aok
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Maybe you should ask more questions instead of just disagreeing when you don't know what's being discussed. :aok
Maybe you should drop down from your pedestal and focus on gameplay instead of looking at your wingtips. :aok
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Maybe you should drop down from your pedestal and focus on gameplay instead of looking at your wingtips. :aok
I'm not on a pedestal, I'm just taller than you. :lol
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I'm not on a pedestal, I'm just taller than you. :lol
There's a difference between looking down (or imagining about doing so) and being taller. Maybe you just wear high heels or something? :D
It is entirely possible to be ranked 1 on fighter/attack without spending time looking at your wingtips.
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So you're spending your time watching at your wingtips while you fight someone? I pay no attention to _any_ part of my cartoon plane when I'm fighting. I just go along the learned performance envelope and stall effects. Maybe that's why I suck at AH.. who knows!
Of course I'm not looking at the wingtip in a fight. Was just an example of parts of the airplane used for visual cue when nose high. A huge part of coordinated flight comes from experience. That reflexive rudder pressure when using aileron. The visual cues are many times very subtle and used more as a cross-check that you have correct rudder pressure than an indicator rudder pressure is needed.
Real life firing while yawed means you will most likely miss your shot. Along those lines when firing rockets or dropping bombs you want the ball centered to increase accuracy. It's an advantage to fly coordinated in most situations.
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Of course I'm not looking at the wingtip in a fight. Was just an example of parts of the airplane used for visual cue when nose high. A huge part of coordinated flight comes from experience. That reflexive rudder pressure when using aileron. The visual cues are many times very subtle and used more as a cross-check that you have correct rudder pressure than an indicator rudder pressure is needed.
Real life firing while yawed means you will most likely miss your shot. Along those lines when firing rockets or dropping bombs you want the ball centered to increase accuracy. It's an advantage to fly coordinated in most situations.
Dear friend, you're talking about actual flight and we're talking about the simulated cues we can see on screen while playing. There's no "butt feeling" in AH as sad as it is.
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I pay no attention to _any_ part of my cartoon plane when I'm fighting.
I'd wager you're using references you may not realize --- or your really do suck. :devil
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Dear friend, you're talking about actual flight
Both actually.
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I'd wager you're using references you may not realize --- or your really do suck. :devil
I just wonder how do you look at your wingtips for example when you're doing rolling scissors or other manouvers which include looking mostly upwards from your simulated cockpit.. At least my screen is too small to include anything but the sliver of blue sky and the flyspeck of an enemy. The only time when I'm really looking at my wingtip is when I'm trying to hammerhead / rope someone.
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Real life firing while yawed means you will most likely miss your shot. Along those lines when firing rockets or dropping bombs you want the ball centered to increase accuracy. It's an advantage to fly coordinated in most situations.
This is a good point and may explain my previous undesirable hit percentages. I wonder how much my shooting might improve if I checked the ball first.
I wouldn't agree it's an advantage in most situations because the set up and firing of rockets and bombs constitute less than 3 percent of your flying time per sortie. I just don't think it's realistic without more cues besides visual. UNLESS, and this just occurred to me, a ball was always visible on our screens.
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I just wonder how do you look at your wingtips for example when you're doing rolling scissors or other manouvers which include looking mostly upwards from your simulated cockpit.
I don't...I'm watching my opponent and checking 6. I know from experience that if the stick goes left I need to press left rudder. How much rudder depends on how much aileron, IAS, etc. With experience and practice you reflexively fly the airplane doing your best to keep the ball in the middle. Does it stay centered? Oh heck no, at least not for me. I did tonight tend to watch it more as I was flying just too see how well I do....I do a pretty good job of keeping thing coordinated but still room for improvement.
Keeping the airplane coordinated/trimmed reduces drag. Flying coordinated will only make a small difference in performance but if fighting an evenly matched opponent it could possible make the difference that allows you to win the fight. The way I fly I can use all the help I can get.
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I don't...I'm watching my opponent and checking 6. I know from experience that if the stick goes left I need to press left rudder. How much rudder depends on how much aileron, IAS, etc. With experience and practice you reflexively fly the airplane doing your best to keep the ball in the middle. Does it stay centered? Oh heck no, at least not for me. I did tonight tend to watch it more as I was flying just too see how well I do....I do a pretty good job of keeping thing coordinated but still room for improvement.
Keeping the airplane coordinated/trimmed reduces drag. Flying coordinated will only make a small difference in performance but if fighting an evenly matched opponent it could possible make the difference that allows you to win the fight. The way I fly I can use all the help I can get.
So in reality you're also flying 'by the seat of your pants' when fighting and not checking the wingtips. I haven't paid much attention to the coordination before (on the other hand it didn't stop me from ranking high fighter/attack rankings starting from 1 either). I think I'll practise it now, that would explain my bad E retention in knife fights. Twisty stick however is not the best tool for this. It's great for tail-snap shots etc. violent manouvers but not much more.
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So in reality you're also flying 'by the seat of your pants' when fighting and not checking the wingtips. I haven't paid much attention to the coordination before (on the other hand it didn't stop me from ranking high fighter/attack rankings starting from 1 either). I think I'll practise it now, that would explain my bad E retention in knife fights. Twisty stick however is not the best tool for this. It's great for tail-snap shots etc. violent manouvers but not much more.
Flying seat of the pants refers to feeling the aircraft through the seat. It only works when the seat is moving. In Aces High it's all aauditory and visual cues like looking over the nosse or wingtips or tail. Earl posted a drill in this thread that you can do to develop the habit of adding rudder as you roll. If you practice enough you'll do it automatically in a dogfight.
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Flying seat of the pants refers to feeling the aircraft through the seat. It only works when the seat is moving. In Aces High it's all aauditory and visual cues like looking over the nosse or wingtips or tail. Earl posted a drill in this thread that you can do to develop the habit of adding rudder as you roll. If you practice enough you'll do it automatically in a dogfight.
Adding rudder automatically is exactly flying through the seat of the pants as far as AH goes. I've kept track of the ball lately in a few sorties and centering it is far from adding rudder to the way you turn to. At least I tend to push the plane in all sorts of directions while fighting.
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Seeing this at work in films would be a great benefit. :)
I try it all the time, but I'm Mr. Heavyfoot on the pedals, or so it seems. In a nimble plane, even the most minute movement throws the ball way out of center. In a bomber, it's much easier.
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Adding rudder automatically is exactly flying through the seat of the pants as far as AH goes. I've kept track of the ball lately in a few sorties and centering it is far from adding rudder to the way you turn to. At least I tend to push the plane in all sorts of directions while fighting.
Centering the ball in flight, other than turns, is generally done with rudder trim. You'll notice the trim required changes with speed. You can do this automatically with combat trim turned on or by using auto level trim or auto angle trim when your speed is stabiliized. If this isn't clear I can illustrate and demonstrate it in the TA if you're interested.
Seeing this at work in films would be a great benefit. :)
I try it all the time, but I'm Mr. Heavyfoot on the pedals, or so it seems. In a nimble plane, even the most minute movement throws the ball way out of center. In a bomber, it's much easier.
Seeing this at work in films would be a great benefit. :)
I try it all the time, but I'm Mr. Heavyfoot on the pedals, or so it seems. In a nimble plane, even the most minute movement throws the ball way out of center. In a bomber, it's much easier.
Have you tried scaling the rudder response?
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Seeing this at work in films would be a great benefit. :)
I try it all the time, but I'm Mr. Heavyfoot on the pedals, or so it seems. In a nimble plane, even the most minute movement throws the ball way out of center. In a bomber, it's much easier.
That's because you don't have any physical cues to go by and I would bet that everyone in game is the same way.
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Have you tried scaling the rudder response?
Yeah, it's slightly scaled, say from 80% on the left-most band to 100% on the 3rd from last band, with a gradual curve. I dampened it a bit too.
I'll play with it some more to see what I can accomplish for better results.
With the scaling I currently have, it's very touchy in a 51. In a 38, it's not that bad. In a 17, it's easy to control. Trying to keep it centered actually reminds me of when we first tried WB and AH after AW, and the 'bounciness' was talked about.
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You might want to scale it a bit more in the center. If memory serves I scaled mine heavily for the first 4 or 5 bands. That really helped me for fine tuning where the nose is pointing.
The thought process behind it was having it finely controllable near the middle, with full scaling toward the outside. Generally I don't find fine input all that useful once I get past a certain amount of throw. I'm usually trying to do something that I want a lot of rudder for if I've pushed the pedal that far.
Wiley.
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Yeah, it's slightly scaled, say from 80% on the left-most band to 100% on the 3rd from last band, with a gradual curve. I dampened it a bit too.
I'll play with it some more to see what I can accomplish for better results.
With the scaling I currently have, it's very touchy in a 51. In a 38, it's not that bad. In a 17, it's easy to control. Trying to keep it centered actually reminds me of when we first tried WB and AH after AW, and the 'bounciness' was talked about.
I'd suggest starting with default rudder scaling for fighters. You can always set different scalings to different modes so you can switch between 2 or 3 settings.
Typically I trim for max speed for dive bombing or cruising speed for general flying and just use the rudder pedals for takeoff, adverse yaw, skidding and slipping, or if I'm shooting or bombing out of trim.
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I have my rudders scaled the same as my elevators.
ack-ack
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Thanks guys. I'll change it tonight and comment on how it works for me.
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Well, I started this thread out different, but I like where the discussion has ended up. Make better pilots out of all of us.
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I wouldn't agree it's an advantage in most situations because the set up and firing of rockets and bombs constitute less than 3 percent of your flying time per sortie.
If the ball is out of center the airplane is yawed. If it's yawed you're presenting the side of the airplane to the slipstream which means more drag. How can reducing drag (saving energy) not be a good thing? Except of course those times when you want to bleed E -- I just find the more common issue is being short on E so I like to conserve as much as I can.
If someone wants to let the tail wag around behind them that's fine. As I posted earlier the advantage to being anal about coordination probably won't make any big difference. IMO you do gain a minute amount, it is the way airplanes are meant to be flown so for me I'm going to be stomping rudder for the same reason I land on the center line and fly final on speed even when solo in the airplane --- it's just the right thing to do.
<S>
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I have my rudders scaled the same as my elevators.
ack-ack
+1 :aok
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If the ball is out of center the airplane is yawed. If it's yawed you're presenting the side of the airplane to the slipstream which means more drag. How can reducing drag (saving energy) not be a good thing? Except of course those times when you want to bleed E -- I just find the more common issue is being short on E so I like to conserve as much as I can.
If someone wants to let the tail wag around behind them that's fine. As I posted earlier the advantage to being anal about coordination probably won't make any big difference. IMO you do gain a minute amount, it is the way airplanes are meant to be flown so for me I'm going to be stomping rudder for the same reason I land on the center line and fly final on speed even when solo in the airplane --- it's just the right thing to do.
<S>
You're absolutely right and this is something I never thought about before. I did notice how some players were able to retain E incredibly better (I remember one certain fight in C202 vs C202 against Leviathan for example, he zoomed like a sick puppy after turning with me and I just had no chance of following).
Now the only question is am I willing to spend time and effort in learning the pedals or will I try to adapt using the twisty stick. The twisty aiming is in my spine after 10+ years of AH/WB.
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Now the only question is am I willing to spend time and effort in learning the pedals or will I try to adapt using the twisty stick. The twisty aiming is in my spine after 10+ years of AH/WB.
Everybody's different. I know for myself, pedals made a huge difference. They allowed me to isolate what I'm doing with stick and rudder much better, and allowed me much finer input on rudder. I'd only had about 6 months on the twisty before I got pedals, so it could be a completely different thing for someone who's been at it for that long.
Wiley.
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If the ball is out of center the airplane is yawed. If it's yawed you're presenting the side of the airplane to the slipstream which means more drag. How can reducing drag (saving energy) not be a good thing? Except of course those times when you want to bleed E -- I just find the more common issue is being short on E so I like to conserve as much as I can.
If someone wants to let the tail wag around behind them that's fine. As I posted earlier the advantage to being anal about coordination probably won't make any big difference. IMO you do gain a minute amount, it is the way airplanes are meant to be flown so for me I'm going to be stomping rudder for the same reason I land on the center line and fly final on speed even when solo in the airplane --- it's just the right thing to do.
<S>
Obviously you know what you're talking about, I couldn't agree more and I'm not a certified pilot in RL... in game me and my buds used to call what you're talking about here, "being fluid" with the resistance, cutting down the friction at all times helps conserve E... being "one" with the atmosphere, albeit Cartoon planes and air, still baffles some that wonder, "where in hell did he get all that damn E from"......
:aok
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Everybody's different. I know for myself, pedals made a huge difference. They allowed me to isolate what I'm doing with stick and rudder much better, and allowed me much finer input on rudder. I'd only had about 6 months on the twisty before I got pedals, so it could be a completely different thing for someone who's been at it for that long.
Wiley.
I use an old sidewinder twisty, and no matter how good one gets at using a twisty, pedals will always be better for the simple fact that sometimes the plane needs to nose up or down with an exact and non-changing amount of rudder applied.... extremely hard to do using a twisty, even for someone who has a decade of practice! :aok
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I use an old sidewinder twisty, and no matter how good one gets at using a twisty, pedals will always be better for the simple fact that sometimes the plane needs to nose up or down with an exact and non-changing amount of rudder applied.... extremely hard to do using a twisty, even for someone who has a decade of practice! :aok
:airplane: I am a little confused! You say the aircraft needs to nose up or down, using rudder pedals? Are you referring to a turning maneuver? The rudder pedals only controls "Yaw" about the vertical axis of the aircraft. To be more specific, the rudder is on an aircraft for one reason and one reason only, "to overcome the adverse yaw created by the down aileron in a turn"! Of course, not counting the rudders use on takeoffs and slow airspeeds to overcome the torque and "P" factor caused by the engine and prop. Just for the sake of it, just remember these three things and it might help you with your flying.
#1- Rudder controls yaw about the vertical axis, which runs through your aircraft from the top of the aircraft to the bottom!
#2- Elevator controls "pitch about the lateral axis, which runs from wing tip to wing tip.
#3- Ailerons control roll about the longitudinal axis which runs from nose to tail of the aircraft.
http://www.google.com/search?q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&tbo=u&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mZn1UJ6MF4jS9ATJ6IGICQ&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1405&bih=582#q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSEgkk4Ucba2xEUSF59-ccl8zQrA&iact=hc&vpx=200&vpy=131&dur=7089&hovh=188&hovw=268&tx=98&ty=280&sig=113520652345733669011&ei=opn1ULWZNYO89gTD-oCYDQ&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=207&ved=1t:2220,r:1,s:0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.eWU&fp=bbb932e8e0a2bb50&biw=1405&bih=582
Hope this helps sir!
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:airplane: I am a little confused! You say the aircraft needs to nose up or down, using rudder pedals? Are you referring to a turning maneuver? The rudder pedals only controls "Yaw" about the vertical axis of the aircraft. To be more specific, the rudder is on an aircraft for one reason and one reason only, "to overcome the adverse yaw created by the down aileron in a turn"! Of course, not counting the rudders use on takeoffs and slow airspeeds to overcome the torque and "P" factor caused by the engine and prop. Just for the sake of it, just remember these three things and it might help you with your flying.
#1- Rudder controls yaw about the vertical axis, which runs through your aircraft from the top of the aircraft to the bottom!
#2- Elevator controls "pitch about the lateral axis, which runs from wing tip to wing tip.
#3- Ailerons control roll about the longitudinal axis which runs from nose to tail of the aircraft.
http://www.google.com/search?q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&tbo=u&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mZn1UJ6MF4jS9ATJ6IGICQ&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1405&bih=582#q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSEgkk4Ucba2xEUSF59-ccl8zQrA&iact=hc&vpx=200&vpy=131&dur=7089&hovh=188&hovw=268&tx=98&ty=280&sig=113520652345733669011&ei=opn1ULWZNYO89gTD-oCYDQ&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=207&ved=1t:2220,r:1,s:0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.eWU&fp=bbb932e8e0a2bb50&biw=1405&bih=582
Hope this helps sir!
Earl, he is speaking of the fact that with a twisty stick(rudder when you twist the stick), it is almost impossible to add only elevator with out twisting your wrist one way or the other, hence why he believes rudder pedals are better.
On the same thought process.
A gunnery tip, switching your gunning trigger to left hand, either throttle or keyboard can prevent accidental stick deflection do to pulling the trigger, when precise shooting is desired.
HiTech
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Earl, he is speaking of the fact that with a twisty stick(rudder when you twist the stick), it is almost impossible to add only elevator with out twisting your wrist one way or the other, hence why he believes rudder pedals are better.
On the same thought process.
A gunnery tip, switching your gunning trigger to left hand, either throttle or keyboard can prevent accidental stick deflection do to pulling the trigger, when precise shooting is desired.
HiTech
absolutely correct....I put my secondaries on my throttle a couple years ago...and just about doubled my hit % over night....same thing happened when I went from a twisty to peddles :aok
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A gunnery tip, switching your gunning trigger to left hand, either throttle or keyboard can prevent accidental stick deflection do to pulling the trigger, when precise shooting is desired.
A6M for example had a lever-like trigger in the throttle for firing the guns.
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Everybody's different. I know for myself, pedals made a huge difference. They allowed me to isolate what I'm doing with stick and rudder much better, and allowed me much finer input on rudder. I'd only had about 6 months on the twisty before I got pedals, so it could be a completely different thing for someone who's been at it for that long.
Wiley.
I tried pedals but got frustrated because I no longer could hit literally the broad side of a barn. Maybe now after lengthy abcense that I have to relearn stuff anyway it would work.
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I tried pedals but got frustrated because I no longer could hit literally the broad side of a barn. Maybe now after lengthy abcense that I have to relearn stuff anyway it would work.
It might've helped me as well because I completely changed my setup. I went from a relatively cheap twisty to an X52 with pedals in one move. Since I had to relearn ALL the muscle memory, it probably eased the transition.
It might be an opportunity for you. I knew a couple guys that swore by their twisties over the years, but it was so different from my experience, I just couldn't relate.
It will take a while to retrain your brain for sure though. I know after I'd been using the pedals for a year or so, I was playing with a twisty somewhere else, and was laughing my backside off because anytime I'd go to apply rudder, my foot would kick the floor, then I'd twist the stick.
Wiley.
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:airplane: I am a little confused! You say the aircraft needs to nose up or down, using rudder pedals? Are you referring to a turning maneuver? The rudder pedals only controls "Yaw" about the vertical axis of the aircraft. To be more specific, the rudder is on an aircraft for one reason and one reason only, "to overcome the adverse yaw created by the down aileron in a turn"! Of course, not counting the rudders use on takeoffs and slow airspeeds to overcome the torque and "P" factor caused by the engine and prop. Just for the sake of it, just remember these three things and it might help you with your flying.
#1- Rudder controls yaw about the vertical axis, which runs through your aircraft from the top of the aircraft to the bottom!
#2- Elevator controls "pitch about the lateral axis, which runs from wing tip to wing tip.
#3- Ailerons control roll about the longitudinal axis which runs from nose to tail of the aircraft.
http://www.google.com/search?q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&tbo=u&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mZn1UJ6MF4jS9ATJ6IGICQ&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1405&bih=582#q=axis+of+flight+of+aircraft&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7PRFA_en&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSEgkk4Ucba2xEUSF59-ccl8zQrA&iact=hc&vpx=200&vpy=131&dur=7089&hovh=188&hovw=268&tx=98&ty=280&sig=113520652345733669011&ei=opn1ULWZNYO89gTD-oCYDQ&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=207&ved=1t:2220,r:1,s:0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.eWU&fp=bbb932e8e0a2bb50&biw=1405&bih=582
Hope this helps sir!
Sorry for the confusion Earl, HT cleared it up... but basically if you are intending to use X amount of rudder, and you also have to use the elevators, it is extremely hard to keep the exact amount of rudder applied while using the elevators, same holds true with aileron use. One would have to twist stick at X degrees and hold it there while using the stick for ele and ailer control. I compensate for it naturally now because I have been "flying" that way so long, but it is frustrating at times! :aok
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Earl, he is speaking of the fact that with a twisty stick(rudder when you twist the stick), it is almost impossible to add only elevator with out twisting your wrist one way or the other, hence why he believes rudder pedals are better.
On the same thought process.
A gunnery tip, switching your gunning trigger to left hand, either throttle or keyboard can prevent accidental stick deflection do to pulling the trigger, when precise shooting is desired.
HiTech
:airplane: Thanks for correcting me, I hadn't thought of the secondary gun switch on my left hand, gotta change that ASAP! Thnaks for the tip!!!
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I have a CH Fighterstick, and have "fire all" mapped to the trigger, with another button to "fire primary only" and a third to "fire secondary only". I fly with a light pressure on the stick, so have never had an issue with throwing the nose around while pulling the trigger.
Just like in golf, (for a right-handed golfer) the tighter you squeeze your right hand, the farther you will slice the ball to the right. So with your joystick, a light grip allows for the smaller muscles to do their thing and in turn allows you finer control of the stick and buttons. ;)
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On the same thought process.
A gunnery tip, switching your gunning trigger to left hand, either throttle or keyboard can prevent accidental stick deflection do to pulling the trigger, when precise shooting is desired.
HiTech
Oh great... another thing that makes sense to try out and obsess over. That's going to be some tough muscle memory to beat out of myself...
Wiley.