Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nrshida on January 18, 2013, 05:30:33 AM
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Looks like some Algerian hostage takers are about to meet the S.A.S. S.A.S. meet the Algerian hostage takers, Algerian hostage takers, err, why are you all lying down?
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I really hope so, because if the algerians try it I cant see any of the hostages making it out of there.
with hereford's finest in algeria, and le legion operating in mali, this is not a good time to be an islamist in north africa ... :uhoh
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Algerian forces storm the compound, all remaining hostages executed, hostage takers all killed.
big surprise :rolleyes:
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Jees christ! And all because they wouldn't let the other countries involved help out! From what I gathered, the first assault was carried out without Algeria informing the UK or any other country, leaving several hostages dead. Now, instead of learning from their mistakes and calling for the professionals i.e SAS, they decide to try a second attempt and all the others have been killed?
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The Algerians have different priorities: The lives of the hostages are secondary to getting all the tangos.
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It appears they used the "kill em all" solution.
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yup, looks like it. reports that a few 4x4s tried to break out of the compound with some of the hostages. did they try to disable them using the snipers they presumably had covering the perimeter? nah they sent a couple of Hinds after them for a turkey shoot ...
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I'm sadly having to rely on BBC News World for my information, and they are keeping very tight lipped.
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The final assault was at a gas plant
http://www.france24.com/en/20130119-algeria-army-kills-islamists-gas-plant-assault (http://www.france24.com/en/20130119-algeria-army-kills-islamists-gas-plant-assault)
This media link has news from all over the world. Many of the country's have English version of the more well know papers.
http://www.kidon.com/media-link/index.php (http://www.kidon.com/media-link/index.php)
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Is this because of the 'Arab Spring'?
From what I can gather they overthrow their governments and start jumping about :old:
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsofm111zQ1qlybwdo1_500.jpg)
^^^
this
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Jees christ! And all because they wouldn't let the other countries involved help out! From what I gathered, the first assault was carried out without Algeria informing the UK or any other country, leaving several hostages dead. Now, instead of learning from their mistakes and calling for the professionals i.e SAS, they decide to try a second attempt and all the others have been killed?
Why would they let other counties to send troops and operate on their land? No European country would. They did the right thing in a very bad way.
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it sucks that so many hostages had to die.
that said, what they did, with no negotiation......that is the way to go. i'd be willing to bet that they won't be messed with again in the near future.
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Algeria has a long and troubled past with regard to Islamic terrorism; being a former French colony the French have been on the receiving end of a lot of it. Algerian terrorists even hijacked an Air France flight and attempted to crash it into Paris, back in 1994. It got so bad during the '90s it is now considered a civil war, that cost between 44,000 and 200,000 lives. This latest action is just a low intensity continuation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War
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Is this because of the 'Arab Spring'?
No, it's all about a video.....
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Why would they let other counties to send troops and operate on their land? No European country would. They did the right thing in a very bad way.
Because they are amateurs.
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European countries often allow an exchange of personal if they need the expertise . SAS train with Germans and French . They advise is hostage situations . If I remember on several occasions in the 1980's the SAS work alot with German SF on hijackings . Hereford often gets in influx of non HMRA soldiers on exercise .
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as sad as it is for the hostages, I think they sent a message that if you come here we gonna kill you no matter what. Terrorist usually depend on negotiation, they just found out that Algeria doesnt negotiate.
I remember back in the 80's when westerners were being kidnapped in the middle east. The first time russians were kidnapped in the middle east, the KGB/special forces found out who was involved and kidnapped their relatives and sent their body pieces to the kidnappers. The hostages were released and there were no more russian kidnappers.
midway
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I don't believe in negotiating with terrorists, but Algerian forces botched one rescue attempt, killing several hostages and not ending the seige. At that moment, they knew what they were dealing with, they knew Expats were in there, including US and UK citizens. I still firmly believe that further loss of hostages would have been avoided had Algeria said that the SAS could go in.
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European countries often allow an exchange of personal if they need the expertise . SAS train with Germans and French . They advise is hostage situations . If I remember on several occasions in the 1980's the SAS work alot with German SF on hijackings . Hereford often gets in influx of non HMRA soldiers on exercise .
I want to see what happens if non-Euro hostages were held in Germany or UK. Lets say Russian or Chinese hostages are held in the UK. Will the UK allow Russian/Chinese special forces to operate there? I think we all know the answer.
In 1972 during the Munich Olympics Palestinian terrorists held 11 Israeli athletes as hostages. Germany did not allow Israeli special forces to operate and went on a botched rescue attempt themselves. All the hostages were killed - the Algerians had better hostage survival rates than that.
I don't believe in negotiating with terrorists, but Algerian forces botched one rescue attempt, killing several hostages and not ending the seige. At that moment, they knew what they were dealing with, they knew Expats were in there, including US and UK citizens. I still firmly believe that further loss of hostages would have been avoided had Algeria said that the SAS could go in.
So what is important is that they were UK and US citizens? If they were Brazilian and Korean than the Algerians should have gone ahead with the operation? It was on Algerian land, they have the full responsibility and the right to decide. Even to decide wrong.
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No the nationalities are not important. More I chose to highlight the the US and UK simply because they have the most feared Special Operation forces.
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Delta Force and the SEALs make me nervous...... the SAS terrify me.
The Algerians had every right to do what they did. Their objective was to kill the enemy. They succeeded. Yes the hostages were killed but the terrorists gained nothing. No doubt the SAS would have done the job infinitely better, but the end result is the same. Terrorists dead, situation resolved. Simply more people left standing with the SAS involved.
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The thing is we don't know how many operations SAS members do outside of "work" . They are allowed to take "private" operations that are not related to UK citizens or government . Many SAS members take these as an extra income . we will never know how many Kidnappings / hostage rescues are done with these members . The SAS is very secretive about how many non-sanctioned operations they go on .
It was after Munich that Germany started to take on how to operate hostage rescue .
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I want to see what happens if non-Euro hostages were held in Germany or UK. Lets say Russian or Chinese hostages are held in the UK. Will the UK allow Russian/Chinese special forces to operate there? I think we all know the answer.
In 1972 during the Munich Olympics Palestinian terrorists held 11 Israeli athletes as hostages. Germany did not allow Israeli special forces to operate and went on a botched rescue attempt themselves. All the hostages were killed - the Algerians had better hostage survival rates than that.
So what is important is that they were UK and US citizens? If they were Brazilian and Korean than the Algerians should have gone ahead with the operation? It was on Algerian land, they have the full responsibility and the right to decide. Even to decide wrong.
Surely the intelligent solution is to employ the best tool for the job, if that is offered to you.
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Because they are amateurs.
They've been fighting these terrorists for the last 20 years; successfully I might add. Since 2001 they've also been training with US forces.
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They've been fighting these terrorists for the last 20 years; successfully I might add. Since 2001 they've also been training with US forces.
Unfortunately a lot of dead hostages imply they aren't so hot at rescues. It is a regrettable situation.
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There are reports that some of the hostages were wired with explosives. That some of the bodies they are finding are badly mutilated, it is entirely plausible to believe that some of these hostages might very well have been inaccessible regardless of "who" went in.
This isn't Hollywood. People die all the time, especially when deranged religious fanatics are involved.
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Surely the intelligent solution is to employ the best tool for the job, if that is offered to you.
Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty. There are no guarantees even if they went in instead of the Algerians. The Algerian prime directives seem to have been: No negotiations and no terrorist walks away. The operated accordingly and achieved their prime goals. The secondary goal of rescuing some hostages was not as successful.
It is not only about using the best tool. Nationality and sovereignty play a part in such decisions also, especially when inviting in "colonial empires" to operate on ex-colonial land.
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Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty.
I do not, I just think they might have had a better chance than this sledgehammer approach. Now we will never know. Your second statement is inaccurate.
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This was not your typical Hollywood hostage situation. The terrorists took control of a huge gas processing plant with close to a thousand workers. Most of those who survived simply hid from the terrorists, or managed to flee the area. At least that's what the Norwegian survivors are saying.
That around 40 hostages were killed is, of course, tragic, but we should also recognize that more than 600 survived.
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Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty.
counter-terrorism (including hostage rescue) is exactly what they do. they are also fairly familiar with the north african desert ...
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They've been fighting these terrorists for the last 20 years; successfully I might add. Since 2001 they've also been training with US forces.
The Algerian forces were only successful in pushing the terrorists out of the north and into the southern Sahara wastlands were it's virtually lawless and sparsely populated.
ack-ack
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Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty.
According to the SAS's website, they are a counter-terrorist unit, with the Special Projects unit within the SAS being the primary counter-terrorist team. The SAS lists counter-terrorism and special warfare operations as their primary specialties.
ack-ack
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Never underestimate the SAS . No one has even half an incline into where they go and what they do. Even when you "retire" you stay on the books . As I pointed out members can be "guns for hire" for certain operations . Before the secound gulf war there were already SAS in Iraq doing intel work . Most of the work they do is counter terror . There are a number of Spoiled bomb plots here in the UK due to the work of SAS some dressed as police officers and the such .
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He also has a point though, don't over-estimate this kind of action either. There aren't many S.A.S. operations where something didn't go wrong, extending right back to the regiment's origins in WW2. It's just the nature of this risky kind of business. You generally want them to go in when every other option has been tried.
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Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty.
SAS may not be a dedicated counter terrorist ONLY force, but they typically have at least one squadron actively training to do hostage rescue, and is tasked with this being their primary mission.
A person I did some work for a few years back, training some of his new PSD recruits in CQB Pistol, Alan Bell, from www.globerisk.com, just so happens to be x-SAS. He also just so happens to have been a part of what is likely the most famous hostage rescue event, arguably next to the Air France rescue - the Princess Gate Embassy rescue. Alan was one of the first guys through the door on the video seen around the world. I would say this qualifies as "counter terrorist" by any definition of the term.
as sad as it is for the hostages, I think they sent a message that if you come here we gonna kill you no matter what. Terrorist usually depend on negotiation, they just found out that Algeria doesnt negotiate.
I remember back in the 80's when westerners were being kidnapped in the middle east. The first time russians were kidnapped in the middle east, the KGB/special forces found out who was involved and kidnapped their relatives and sent their body pieces to the kidnappers. The hostages were released and there were no more russian kidnappers.
Semp, my father, who is a police officer, just tonight said exactly what you just posted, and I agree with both of you. Sure, their operation wasn't perfect, but I admire them for putting terrorists on notice that their nonsense won't be tolerated and will be met with force no matter the outcome. Good for them I say.
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SAS may not be a dedicated counter terrorist ONLY force, but they typically have at least one squadron actively training to do hostage rescue, and is tasked with this being their primary mission.
A person I did some work for a few years back, training some of his new PSD recruits in CQB Pistol, Alan Bell, from www.globerisk.com, just so happens to be x-SAS. He also just so happens to have been a part of what is likely the most famous hostage rescue event, arguably next to the Air France rescue - the Princess Gate Embassy rescue. Alan was one of the first guys through the door on the video seen around the world. I would say this qualifies as "counter terrorist" by any definition of the term.
Semp, my father, who is a police officer, just tonight said exactly what you just posted, and I agree with both of you. Sure, their operation wasn't perfect, but I admire them for putting terrorists on notice that their nonsense won't be tolerated and will be met with force no matter the outcome. Good for them I say.
bold part...now if only all countries would do this, it would be amazing how fast terrorism would subside.
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That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy. Leaders are slaves to public opinion.
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SAS may not be a dedicated counter terrorist ONLY force, but they typically have at least one squadron actively training to do hostage rescue, and is tasked with this being their primary mission.
A person I did some work for a few years back, training some of his new PSD recruits in CQB Pistol, Alan Bell, from www.globerisk.com, just so happens to be x-SAS. He also just so happens to have been a part of what is likely the most famous hostage rescue event, arguably next to the Air France rescue - the Princess Gate Embassy rescue. Alan was one of the first guys through the door on the video seen around the world. I would say this qualifies as "counter terrorist" by any definition of the term.
"Counter terrorist" is a very broad term. Going out to shoot Bin Laden in the head and feed him to the fish is also a kind of counter terrorism, though there are no hostages involved (I know these were not SAS). While SAS may train at hostage situations, this is not what the unit was created for.
The Israeli equivalent to SAS is "the unit" (Hayehida), also known as Sayeret Matkal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_Matkal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_Matkal)). They are responsible for famous hostage rescues such as the Sabena hijacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabena_Flight_571_hijacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabena_Flight_571_hijacking)) and the Entebbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe)) hostage rescue. While they are often tasked with hostage rescues even within Israel borders they military and government were criticized for assigning them to such operations (especially the less successful ones), as there are other units who are better trained and suited for such work. The main reason that they are still selected for such operations is more a matter of competition and prestige with other units. Quite a few of the military high command and politicians served in this unit and they tend to support their younger "buddies".