Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sturm on April 08, 2001, 04:58:00 PM
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Just curious but I have a hunch on a couple that might not be joining us on this tour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Stop and think about that a second- if your name was on the list, would you want us to discuss it? Probably not. Best to let this topic alone if possible, it really is a big, messy scab that needs a little time to heal.
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Sturm
How long have you been here?
:sigh:
Hopefully, NO ONE will be next if we all act our damn age.
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Apparently you take things a little to personal. If you act like an adult you get treated like one. Soap opera this place has become and I guess we cannot discuss everything here. Simple punch and a joke. Can't take it oh well deal with it.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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It's a poor joke.
Too bad that the UBB doesnt count as well towards getting the heave - ho. If that was the case then both the ubb and arena would be a hell of a lot more peaceful. That's all I want, greedy person that I am.
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Originally posted by Sturm:
Just curious but I have a hunch on a couple that might not be joining us on this tour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Who Cares??
As a wise and old sage once said..."Engage the enemy, not the keyboard."
Hehe....so a more important question...Who was this very wise and learned person that could dispense such wisdom upon the unwashed masses? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cobra
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That quote was brought to you by *Hangtime*. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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As a wise and old sage once said..."Engage the enemy, not the keyboard."
Cobra.. you obviously never read the Hangtime/Hristo flames following the P51/109 duel several months ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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'Funny thing about "community", its tough not to be one of the sheep..': Tronski
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Where is Hangtime when we need him ? I ask ya !
Saw
[Mass]
(Still got my "burglar alarm ready for ya Hang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ")
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It's allways been a real puzzle for me... Is it that joining the LW and giving yourself a phony rank makes u anoying or is it that anoying people are attracted to the LW and then give themselves phony rank?
lazs
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Lol.
The rank thing does seem to be a pattern.
Lets call it the Klink syndrome.
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I must have missed something here.What the hell are you talking about?
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Lzs would just like to see more powerups.
After all, what's with this flying phoney fake virtual aircraft?
Same thing as with fake titles and stuff
Yeah.
Quake on dude.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Not to mention a Doom style BFG for those nasty buff pilots who won't sit perfectly still and not fire back while he shoots at them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I agree with StSanta!
Luftwaffe titles are a sign of greatness!
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Von-zufelwafell kapitan extrordinaireze Kommodore hblair ze great
"Ze terror of Ze skies, and ze taker of ze wife, ze drinker of your beer"
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ROFL Hblair (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by hblair:
I agree with StSanta!
Luftwaffe titles are a sign of gayness!
Did i miss something here other than Santa in a Tu-Tu?
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rev.. i gotta be pretty bored to even bother to shoot at a buff.
lazs
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1. Many that form Luftwaffe groups are those that are enthusiasts and love these warbirds.
2. Rank will always be a struggle, those having high ranks will battle for control.
3. Giving oneself a title or attaining rank: Depending on what the function and purpose or how it was attained should be pretty self explanatory. If you like I can go into further detail if you do not understand, lazs open up page 748 in Websters Dictionary and start looking it up.
4. I am looking at both sides of the argument now from the AK side and as well from others that have added input.
5. We will always complain and never be completely happy: Err to be human.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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Torque, get back in the game! We miss ya man. and ya can't have my bud light.
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does it matter over all ?? only time will tell thats my guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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DRILL
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4. I am looking at both sides of the argument now from the AK side and as well from others that have added input.
Erm.. what? I don't see any argument being presented... just a very vague statement.
AKDejaVu
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rgr that, get with deja on how to present a pure -D- arguement.
<g,d,r>
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Klink sydrome... LOL pongo! Yeah, gotta admit.. whenever I think of em I think of a (alternately) pompous or pouty colonel Klink wearing a pocket protector.
After a lot of thot... I think it's that the LW attracts em.
lazs
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After a lot of thot... I think it's that the LW attracts em.
lazs
Got to hand it to you lazs your English is superb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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Bah! Go change the oil in your Healey...
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hblair... Waaa? wha is this? How did you know it was due?
sturmtrooper... yes, many have comented on how gud my english is. By the way.... exactly how did you "earn" your rank? will you perhaps be giving yourself a promotion soon? Please be sure to write it all up when you do as I'm sure that everyone on the board is just as thrilled as I am whenever I read about your exploits and how skilled you are. especially since it comes right from the horses (mouth?). Remember... it's not really bragging if you are LW.
Shame about HT and co. only throwing out LW guys tho. It does seem unfair. Wait, towd wasn't LW... nevermind.
lazs
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What the hell are you talking about? Riddlin not kicking in yet? LAzs or whatever your name is, I will try and explain this to you in third grade English. You might be able to understand I hope.
How did I attain my rank in AH or my rank in JV44 Platzschutzstaffel? Need to be a little more specific there Lazy. Ok when a person starts a new group they are the captain or "flight commander" of that group. Thats pronounced 'kap-t&n. I started JV44 therefore I am the StaffelKapitän. My rank in AH I have attained after only flying for 4 weeks here. Do I care about my rank in AH? Nope otherwise I would be working to make it better.
Public school system showing its brightest, keep it up Tazs. Your doing a spot on job.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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<edited>
My screw up. Sorry
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-11-2001).]
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lazs, you're the master button presser. I just can't bring myself to getting pissed at you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta-
Guess I am confused about the "anonymous poster" thing as it relates to Habicht. What happened, dare I ask?
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HB. I hadn't heard about your promotion. Congratulations. So, how many bottle caps do you have on your shoulder now?
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well gee sturmtrooper then i guess you "earned" your "rank" by..... well, uh, guess u just gave it to yourself huh? Maybe you got it by winning a spelling bee? Well... regardless, I'm sure u must deserve it. Only four weeks and he allready knows how to form a squad.. Amazing.
lazs
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Come on Lazs, you have to remember the "HTC HAS SCREWED UP ALL THE LW PLANES.. btw I'm starting a new squad" thread. I pretty sure he gave himself rank back then... and repeatedly since.
AKDejaVu
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LOL, remember 4 weeks and where am I? Anyway I have formed other squads as well lazs you truly are the poster child for hooked on phonics. DJ I had no quarrel with you. Guess its the nimitz thingy huh?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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I give up sturmtrooper... "4 weeks" and where are u?
lazs
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Lazs ranks.
Drex
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Someone get that girl a beer!
No Drex i'm not following you around.
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Don't make me reverse you in here.
Drex
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huh? is sturmtrooper bragging about.... ranks?
lazs
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Your not the brightest star out there are ya lazs?
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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perhaps not sturm but you are a little hard to follow... first you claim that you "earned" your "rank" by forming a squad and simply giving it to yourself then.... you switch to "look where I am at" meaning rank... I look at the fighter rank and see that you have a pitiful K/D ratio that would be even worse if you didn't do the cowardly bail thing so much... So far as rank....LOL! Look at the time you spend up! You do realize that rank is a function of being willing to camp online? It's simple really. Look at your raw ratios (performance) and it will be obvious that your best "skill" is staying in the arena for long periods of time.
Looking at your score I simply couldn't believe that you would be bragging about it. I mean....I'm pretty mediocre but...
lazs
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Actually Laz, a overall score of 24 rank *is* quite good, considering you have to be well-balanced, flying and driving equally. I'd bet you couldn't get there.
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I look at the fighter rank and see that you have a pitiful K/D ratio that would be even worse if you didn't do the cowardly bail thing so much.
Bailing counts as a death in K/D ratio as well as being captured. A disco counts as .5 deaths. Sturm6's K/D would be unafected by augering instead of bailing.
The only place where bails/deaths matter is in the "points" section. You get more points for surviving a sortie than for getting killed.
I challenge you to prove otherwise lazs. I know I have the numbers to support my argument.
AKDejaVu
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well gee rip.... if you are betting that I couldn't spend allmost 90 hours online so far this tour then I would guess u would win... I doubt more than about 24 people could.
If, however you are betting that I couldn't achive an K/D of about 1/1 even without a dozen bails...
"rank" is a function of time spent online. Someone ranked 89 in a fighter is not 10 times better than someone ranked 890 in fact... There is a very good chance that the guy ranked 890 is far more dangerous.
not really picking on sturm so much as the whole "rank" thing. That is why you never see people touting their "rank"... I mean, if you have a less than 50/50 chance of surviving a fight without hitting the silk... you probly shouldn't brag too much about anything. With that kinda K/d you probly shouldn't act like swooping down and killing a half dozen spits is comonplace for you. Yes... arrogance annoy's me.
oops deja... didn't see your post. I will believe u if you have bothered to do the math. I was/am wrong on that point. My point remains however.
lazs
[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 04-12-2001).]
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"rank" is a function of time spent online. Someone ranked 89 in a fighter is not 10 times better than someone ranked 890 in fact... There is a very good chance that the guy ranked 890 is far more dangerous.
I've spent less time in a fighter than you Lazs, and I'm ranked higher. I wonder why that is? Oh yeah, it is because people refuse to admit that hitting with less than 5% of their rounds should affect their overall score.
You really need to work on that accuracy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The fighter ranking is usually a pretty decent way to tell if anyone is halfway formidable behind the stick. If they aren't in the top 200, they probably aren't super lethal. Being in the top 200 (Fighter rankings) does not guarantee MaD PiLoT SkiLLz, but most that fit into that category are there.
The overall rankings are more of a measurement of how diverse someone choses to be. Sturm has that area covered better than you. You'd rather sit back and fly one particular type of sortie, then downplay anyone that doesn't do the same. Its your choice how you want to fly, it just seems petty to criticize others for how they chose to fly. Ah.. but that's a long dead horse by now.
As for the idea of rank.. well.. that's more of a label than anything else. Someone feeling high and mighty about being CO of a squad they just started a month ago pretty much speaks for itself. As does the fact that you seem to have such a problem with it.
AKDejaVu
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wow your right about the rounds being calculated into the score! That is funny that higher accuracy is taken into account. Flying on the defensive end and living off the reversal will give you a lower accuracy then in the saddle, but can yeild more kills. Different ways of fighting shouldn't be penalized. The guy who takes his time in a situation and gets his kills slower shouldn't be penalized against the guy who gets a kill quick. They both end up at the same result a kill. The other is true with gunnery. You take a guy with .17% gunnery who gets a kill and a guy with .04% gunnery who gets a kill you end up with the same result. Which is tracked in K/S or K/T.
4.667 K/D
3.333 K/S
.0023 K/T
.056 Gunnery %
wow I'm ranked 18th in fighters and the only thing different from me and the #1 spot is that I have a higher K/D, higher K/S, more Kills/time, more kills,and more fighter points(whatever the heck that is).
Man that gunnery is important!
This isn't a post about I want that spot. Just your comment about gunnery got my investigative juices going and was surprised that it was true. This debate is always brought up in conventions or lectures. Gunnery is important, and can be quantified in a pilots overall efficiency, but it is not a value that is more or even remotely close to getting the kill and not getting killed.
Maybe I have the wrong outlook on this fighter thing.
Drex
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Gunnery isn't ranked as more important.. its just that so few people take it seriously that it isn't difficult to excell in this particular category. K/D is a hard one to stand out in because virtually everyone takes that stat seriously (that's why we are here).
I kinda liken it to the 10 Ten kills in a plane lists... its easier to make the list in the planes nobody pays attention to.
AKDejaVu
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It's kindof a double edged sword. On one hand, I guess you don't want to reward the folks that "spray and pray" as much as the dead-eyed killers. On the other hand, having lots of ammo is a tactical advantage to some planes that you shouldn't be penalized for taking advantage of. I fly the Jug, so I don't HAVE to hit with anything more than about 3% of my shots to be plenty deady. I have loads of ammo, so I tend to try deflection shots and snapshots that are very low percentage. They rarely pay off... but what the hell, I can't remember the last time I RTB'd the Jug with no ammo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I never look at that score thing anyway. All I care about is the stats page, and even then I only really look at how I do in the Jug.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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I like the stats page more too Lephturn. The gunnery % is really the only real use I can find for the score page (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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You know what they say about stats, same thing as they do about excuses:
"Excuses only satisfy those who make them"
"Stats only satisfy those who look at them"
Actually, the only person who really cares about your personal stats are you!
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Actually rip, the only person that cares if your personal stats are good is you.
..but people are more than happy to point out when they are bad.
AKDejaVu
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Gunnery could be broken down into distance and off angle shooting for a stat. IF you could track how far and where you hit the bandit with relation to your nose it would be useful. That would be a fun chart to look at to see a graph out to a 1000 yards and what ever the aspect was off your nose. Then have a gunnery percentage for different distances and snapshots.
Gunnery isn't just 100 yards behind the bogey and tag him. Though your ultimate goal is to use ACM to achieve that stance. Multiple engagements, reversals, and the inflow of continuous planes into a fight negates that. A very good reversal after the initial bounce will give you a kill at about 450-600 yards and your percentage of a kill is high, but your gunnery percentage will be low. There is so many factors that go into gunnery that a simple % doesn't tell someones effectiveness.
Drex
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There is so many factors that go into gunnery that a simple % doesn't tell someones effectiveness.
This is true of any category Drex. In and of itself it doesn't tell you anything.
I found that my gunnery in the Yak is much higher than my gunnery in the .50 planes. Basically because the Yak is completely innefective outside of 500 yards.. thus closer shots. But I don't have as good of a view over the nose and have to sacrifice some on deflection shots... basically.. the pros and cons somewhat work out, but not completley.
HTC models the stats in different categories because they know that no one category tells the story. K/D isn't worth much if its a pilot that only engages helpless victims. K/S isn't worth much if the pilot simply rearms/refuels until he gets 5 kills. K/T isn't worth much if the pilot continually dies HO'ing every time. Gunnery isn't worth much if the pilot can't hit something when he has to in order to save his ass.
I like the idea of keeping them equal in value because it doesn't show preferential treatment to one category. It doesn't take much of an increase in gunnery to boost your rankings now, but if more people started doing it... well, the top 10 ranked fighter pilots would see a few new names.
BTW Drex, I'm not really looking forward to the idea of you improving your gunnery (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Stats have a bad rap because they are used to put you ahead or below someone. That should not be their purpose. We have an overally simplified stat gathering process.
If we are going to use it for ranking, and put a value on measuring efficency, then I will put my .02 cents into the pot. Putting a value on a certain part of combat would be a complicated formula. There are to many variables that change every second in a fight to be accurate in measuring someones effectiveness.
If you are going to have stats have stats don't put a value to any of them(which I would like). If your going to have stats with a value tagged on. Then you will have to go deeper into the thinking of what makes up each aspect of combat and track those stats.
Drex
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Yeppers your all over it DJ. How do you track the situation and current enviroment of the fight?
Plane types(values for visibilty, maneuverability, speed at certain altitudes, etc)
Number of enemies at xxxx radius of you.
Number of Friendlies at xxxx radius of you.
Fuel
Weight (bombs before the engagement)
Altitude of those involved.
Speed of those involved.
Type of guns, # of guns, ammo load.
Night
Day
clouds
that is just a brief scratch of the things involved.
And off the topic a bit. I think you should also have the choice like you do for selecting a fighter or attack mission. You should be able to select wingman, and your stats would be seperated into a seperate catagory to track you and your wingmans effiency. With the .wingman highlight command this could also trigger the host to track that person.
This is why I never post much. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Drex
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I've got 7 and 1/2 hours online and I'm ranked 26th in the fiter category.
So, I'm failing to see where time online is a function of how highly ranked you get?
-SW
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Not purely time online, but since there are "points", the sheer number of kills you have has a large influence on your score and rank. The pure number of kills you have are largely a function of time online.
I'm pretty good right now... KD of like 5. something, 7% gunnery or so, etc. However, I just don't have enough kills in terms of volume to rank very high. Not complaining, just using my own stats to illustrate the point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In terms of fighter ranks, I'm ranked about 52nd right now. The guy 1 above me has worse stats than I do accross the board in fighters. I have a better K/D, better K/S, better K/T, better gunnery. All he has is more kills.
Not a whine, just an observation about how it works. That's why folks mention that being high on the list takes a lot of time online most of all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Seeing as how I'm ranked 50'th and you're only 52nd, I feel the need to condescend to you you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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deja.. both u and drex are proving my point. Rank means nothing. As you say tho... most (but not all) the pretty good sticks end up in the top 200 or so simply by doing so outstanding in on stat or another. As drex says tho... If you want to assign "rank" or skill level to a whole compolation of stats then perhaps all the stats have to be considered very carefully so far as how to weigh them. Otherwise.... they are best left as raw data for everyone to use in any way that THEY find useful.
deja i don't give a rat's about my rank or about my gunnery percent I don't think either mean anything. even you admit that you have a much higher gunnery percentage in the yak than other planes. i actually find the same thing. Not saying I am or am not a good shot but I will have a much hitgher percentage in say a lag than a 1D. I will even have a higher percent in the 51B... certainly I never try to conserve ammo and will spray at a con to get him to turn or pull off a friendly and I will spray ack or whatever. I certainly think that, going by drex's rank.... gunnery is weighted all out of proportion.
also, as drex says.. it depends on the plane you fly for other reasons. A plane with an average K/D of 2/1 is gonna be an automatic advantage over one with a 0.5/1. In this case "skill" is measured by being able to click on the right plane. Hardly an admirable skill.
lazs
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La-7 59 kills in LA7
143 kills to 44 deaths.
I am not cracking on the fact that you fly the LA7 the most. It is one the easiest planes to fly though, but then again you knew that already. At any rate I have 429 kills to 312 deaths, for those that have encountered me I am not an alt monkey I like to mix it up. I do a lot of base defense and base capturing. So is my ratio going to suffer? If I get a kill a run and die I am happy.
One last thing and then I will let this thread die, I also Like to fly all the planes in here. Lazs you assume things very quickly, not once did I say I was a great fighter pilot or a great bomber pilot. How can I spend so much time online? Very simple because I want to. I figure if I don't this month I can't next month do to a impending move and new job.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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Does this Drex guy ever stop talking.... i mean comon now..."which way to the beach"
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Did someone say "Beach"?
ahhhh yess. Soft warm white sand, babes in strings, the soothing rumble of the surf against the dune; the boat slowly swings to the wind, moonlight across the bay..
..and here I sit and stare at this BBS on my laptop, whilst entirely unable to fly the sim.
I don't think anyone could come up with a more exquiste torture than the ones we devise for ourselves.
*sigh*
I do have a 12V blender though...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang (still thinks Hristo's a dork)
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sturm.. if you do a little research u will find that i flew the lag for only one tour or so to get the hang of it. I mostly fly the Hog 1D. I don't find either plane that hard or easy to get kills in. I don't find the 51B that much different either. I fly em all about the same. My k/d stays about the same no matter.. when it gets too low i land some kills. No big deal. Mostly tho, I ditch when I am out of fuel or ammo. I won't fly perk planes or a D9 tho... even i have some pride.
here's the deal... You don't "earn" anything by forming a squad and giving it to yourself... Rank means very little... Pomposity piss's me off... pomposity without performance really piss's me off.
actually... I only start this score crap up every once in a while in order to give deja and sea an opportunity to brag. And to get that blowhard drex to pontificate.
lazs
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Oh yeah.... even tho he tends to run on a bit... drex is ded on on everything he said. The gist being that the stats in no way reflect even how good a person is at that skill much less "overall" when compiled together. As he pointed out.... a higher or lower gunnery percentage may only reflect the type of guns you use or the type of shots you are willing to take. someone with a high percentage may be incapable of hitting anything past a certain deflection angle say..
The stats can be gamed. you can do well in any one or even most of em by flying a certain way... being cautious and mindfull of the stats at all times. They can also be used as a personal performance guide. Bragging about them is pretty silly tho.
lazs
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here's the deal... You don't "earn" anything by forming a squad and giving it to yourself... Rank means very little... Pomposity piss's me off... pomposity without performance really piss's me off.
And people say I have a chip on my shoulder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It seems everyone else knows just how seriously to take Sturm in this forum lazs. Jump on board and you'll enjoy the ride alot more.
The stats can be gamed. you can do well in any one or even most of em by flying a certain way... being cautious and mindfull of the stats at all times. They can also be used as a personal performance guide. Bragging about them is pretty silly tho.
Its no sillier than someone getting upset about someone else bragging about stats. If they mean nothing to you, quit attacking him for doing it. You are a walking contradiction lazs.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Its no sillier than someone getting upset about someone else bragging about stats. If they mean nothing to you, quit attacking him for doing it. You are a walking contradiction lazs.
I can't help but feel that if both are wrong, at least lazs is less wrong than Sturm in his attitude toward statistics. I have yet to hear a compelling argument, given the wide variety of flying styles, plane preferences, flight time, and more, as to why rankings or statistics between players should be valid means of comparison. They are a wonderful way to measure your own improvement over time, but to use them in any other way seems to me to misapply them.
Here's a case in point: Hit percentage. As Calamari, I never bothered to change from Fighter mode in my Tiffy, and yet I'd always merrily strafe ground targets if the opportunity presented itself. The result was hit percentages that ranged, on average, between 6.5 to 7%. How could I possibly know if the players I'm comparing my hit percentage to also abuse their hit percentages in this fashion? Even if they do, how would I know the degree to which they do it relative to me so I could weight things accordingly?
-- Todd/DMF
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Todd-
You are right of course, and I do the same thing. The issue really is "do the stats matter to you, and if they don't, why worry about people who do follow the stats?"
I don't really care what my stats are per se, but I might look at the stats to see how others are doing within a specific context. It is just so much information to me, another tidbit of useless information we gather all the time for the enjoyment of reading it.
Where I think AK is right is that he is questioning those who don't believe stats mean anything about their apparent need to deny others the pleasure of touting their own stats. Let those guys tout themselves that way if they like, don't matter to me...
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Where I think AK is right is that he is questioning those who don't believe stats mean anything about their apparent need to deny others the pleasure of touting their own stats. Let those guys tout themselves that way if they like, don't matter to me...
I wouldn't deny anyone the right to tout their own stats, though I have to admit that I think it's silly when you know the obvious shortcomings of rank/statistics. What does annoy me is when said stats/rank-touters use them as comparative measures of skill (i.e. "You can't talk, my K/D is twice what yours is!"). They're simply not a valid means of comparison, so to suggest that someone is a better pilot based on them defies reason.
-- Todd/DMF
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They're simply not a valid means of comparison, so to suggest that someone is a better pilot based on them defies reason.
The only thing I dislike more than "my stats make me more right" is the "you don't agree with me.. let's duel" debate.
BTW, if you read through all this drivel you'll notice that Sturm never said his score/ranking made him any better or any worse... he simply mentioned it. Only after his "rank" (LW title) came up. His score was then immediately scrutinized by somene "that doesn't care about score" and it was then used to criticize him. The silliness is quite apparent.
Nobody is trying to argue that score makes you more right on this forum, tho many seem to argue that it can make you less right.
AKDejaVu
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dmf gets it deja doesn't. It is quite simple really. something like hit percentage is totally meaningless because it can be gamed and the best shots won't allways have the best (or even close to it) percentages. Same goes for all the stats but hit percentage is probly the worst. When you add up all these stats and try to determine overall skill or rank from em it gets ludicrous.
deja is not representing my view correctly. I did not bring up score or rank at all. sturm jumped from giving himself a squad and a tittle to mentioning his "rank". I was consistent in that I felt his "rank" was every bit as meaningless as his tittle. To prove it I had to show why using his reasoning. He was the one who used rank and stats to show how well he was doing. He opened the door not I. The fact that a person spends allmost 90 hours so far online and has about a 50/50 chance or less of beating anyone he runs into and is ranked so high simply proves my point. I fail to see where my attitude about rank, score or stats is in any way inconsitent.
every stat i see can be gamed to some extent... even K/D can depend on such mundane things as plane choice, time zone, squad affiliation, country choice, numbers etc.
lazs
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Let me be succinct; should we eliminate all scores, as they don't accurately reflect what conditions, mindset, whatever went into making the scores possible?
I hope not. They are there for those that enjoy them. Ignoring them does not impact the play of the people who are for them or against them in any way. In short, if you are advocating revamping the scoring system to be reflective of reality, fine. If you are railing against scores in principle then I think the problem isn't with the scores. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The only score that is given is Fighter Points. This fighter score means nothing in Ranking. My beef is with the insane importance of gunnery percentage.
Drex
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kier..no, don't eliminate em. as you say, they are meaningless to me and I can just ignore em however.... don't tout them at me if you don't want your bubble burst. That goes for rank and, to a much lesser extent, strats.
As drex says.. the gunnery should be by far... the least important in making comparissons or in determining rank tho. Perhaps a new term is in order... "gunnery gamer" or some such.
lazs
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Since I am basically a math geek, I will contend that a generally meaningful fighter score can be derived from a simple formula.
The basics are:
1) Kills. Either you kill enemy fighters or you don't. Performance in fighter skill quite simply means the ability to kill other fighters. Bomber engagements should not be part of the calculations.
2) Deaths. Surviving while you kill enemy fighters is obviously a measure of skill.
3) Time. Killing enemies rapidly. It takes less skill to spend hours stalking unwary enemies from 25k and killing 2 than to engage 2 fully aware enemies at low altitude and beat them.
The Avin-like formula (which is based on HTC's very old WB formula) is Kills/Deaths * Time. Obviously this can be gamed like any formula by choice of aircraft, engagements, etc.. but it is simple and much harder to game than any other formulas I've seen. Quite simply to do very well at this formula you must have a high kill-to-death ratio and a high kill-verses-time ratio. If you try to game your kill-to-death ratio (by stalking from high altitude for example) your kills-verses-time is going to suffer. Conversely it is hard to push kills-verses-time without suffering in kill-to-death.
If HTC actually gathered the statistics to allow considering some of the factors that Drex mentions (i.e. initial energy states, #'s of friendly and enemy nearbye) then a more relevant measure could be developed.
No matter what, the statistics will always be gameable. If somebody doesn't care if they rtb or if they are willing to die to help countrymen in bad situations then no statistic is going to accurately reflect their true skill.
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Iwas wondering...are ya'll talkin bout sturm calling himself "staffelkapitaen"? Is that the "rank" yer sqwaukin about? Geez, any turnip truck idjit knows thats a title and not a rank. A good translation would be: CO
Back in my Navy Days, I was a member of VF-2. The CO of VF-2 was called Captain...anyone ever hear of "captains mast"?...anyway, point is, He werent no Captain. Germy Group commanders were known as Geschwaderkommodore, but were no more a Kommodore than you or I. Its a title...mayhaps thats where the confusion lies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The only thing I dislike more than "my stats make me more right" is the "you don't agree with me.. let's duel" debate.
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You'll note that I didn't advocate this approach either. In my experience with online flight sims over the years, regardless of rank, points, or the like, the players who are the cream of the crop earn the respect, admiration, or fear of others regardless of their score. Word gets around.
BTW, if you read through all this drivel you'll notice that Sturm never said his score/ranking made him any better or any worse... he simply mentioned it. Only after his "rank" (LW title) came up. His score was then immediately scrutinized by somene "that doesn't care about score" and it was then used to criticize him. The silliness is quite apparent.
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Having a high score is no worse a crime than having a low score. I think any mention of it in a comparative context is silly, regardless of who brings it up. Also, just because someone has a high score doesn't necessarily mean they fly for score. Way back when, maybe in the 2nd or 3rd Tour, I miraculously managed to finish 3rd or 4th in the overall rankings by pure happenstance, not by desire. So pilots of all skill levels populate all different levels of ranks and statistics. That's exactly why they're so useless when comparing pilots.
Nobody is trying to argue that score makes you more right on this forum, tho many seem to argue that it can make you less right.
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If you're using score to claim you're better than someone or to suggest that someone lacks skill, then yes... you are wrong. There's nothing wrong with you posting stats or ranks beyond that, though realize that you'll probably be the only one impressed by them.
-- Todd/DMF
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(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif) (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif) (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif) (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif) (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif) (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/mblah.gif)
(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/ssst.gif)
-SW
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To encorage good behavior perks should be givin out for helping newbies, making meaningfull post, and not makeing SPs.
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"Having a high score is no worse a crime than having a low score. I think any mention of
it in a comparative context is silly, regardless of who brings it up. Also, just because
someone has a high score doesn't necessarily mean they fly for score. Way back when,
maybe in the 2nd or 3rd Tour, I miraculously managed to finish 3rd or 4th in the overall
rankings by pure happenstance, not by desire. So pilots of all skill levels populate all
different levels of ranks and statistics. That's exactly why they're so useless when
comparing pilots."
DMF... has put it perfectly. Obviously someone who has been around the block a few times. I find exactly the same thing.
In what hooligan mentions as the 'avin' ratio and another one, yak or something a couple of guys tried with different means to "rank" pilots in WB. I asked both guys privately to be left out of their score systems and both seemd amazed... They even went so far as to say "but why, you are doing good by my score system?" They didn't get it. If i did score high it was pure "hapenstance" and the next time i would be doing something else and not score at all. Would I be less skilled? Was I more skilled before? I simply didn't and don't want to participate. I do however, find the stats interesting and useful on a personal level and say the more things tracked the better.
DMF is obviously right also about people earning respect for ability and word getting around. It even breaks down to some guys being more dangerous in particular kinds of fights or particular planes. It becomes a little pitiful when someone has to tout his score in order to get the respect he should just let happen.
It would be like if I claimed that a smiley face in a post made you an idiot and the more smiley faces the more of an idiot you were. Oh, wait.... that one works. nevermind.
lazs