Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Revvin on March 06, 2001, 09:31:00 AM
-
As I recall the last time the subject of painting your own aircraft was brought up Pyro (correct me if I'm wrong) said that HTC did notthink it a very good idea as people would use this feature to cheat by making enemy planes easily visible etc as well as dweebs wanting to fly round in planes with skull and crossbones mixed with flames etc looking like a hot-rod which I'm sure would totally ruin the immersion for alot of people.
What I wonder now is that will HTC have a change in heart now that their competitors have announced over the last few months that user art can be submitted for inclusion in the game? Warbirds III and Target Korea are both allowing users to submit textures AND moels for their sims for inclusion in their sims, cheating is not an issue as every submission if good enough would be digitally signed so that only that image could be used in the game, imagine the possibilities this can lead to with historically accurate camo schemes for scenarios etc much in the same way AirWarrior has in the form of the SAC utility.
-
I'd like to comment on this, as I was one of the team of players that created the SAC utilty for AW3. The AW community rationalised it thus: If someone is so desperate to gain an advantage that they need "neon" skins on their front-end program, the odds are high that their actual combat abilty is so poor that they don't (in fact) present a threat to you!
Furthermore, in AW3 the graphics are handled slightly differently, so that the aircraft is initially a dot (at long range) then becomes a simple coloured aircraft from about 4k until 1500 yards, and only then becomes a fully 3d rendered object. Because of this, a "neon" skin confers no advantage in terms of acquiring (ie initally spotting) an aircraft, and at close range any advantage gained is so small (if any) as to be moot.
I don't know how AH employs textures, so I don't know how it might be implemented here. My main concern with AH would be people being able to add "windows" to their cockpit via adjusting their skins, which would of course confer a great and unfair combat advantage.
I did get 2-3 emails from colour-blind players who were delighted with it!
Fidd
-
Mebbi you didnt use enough bait revvin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Miss having you around M8!
<S>
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
This needs to be punted about a week after 1.06 is released. I would really like it if one of the HTc folsk would at least let us know what the issue may be in not having this ability.
I think they may be too busy right now to answer. Only guessing at that though.
-Westy
-
I dont think you should be allowed to pain someone else's plane...just your own. Your FE should either display the other guy's plane as the other guy paint schemed it or show the default skin.
-
nice to see u here Fidd, bring the Krait'S over here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
<S>
Maik
-
Originally posted by Tac:
I dont think you should be allowed to pain someone else's plane...just your own. Your FE should either display the other guy's plane as the other guy paint schemed it or show the default skin.
And since you cannot see the outside of your plane anyway, why not just imagine that it is already painted?
I know - you can see it in a film! Is it worth an effort on the HTC part to improve our film-viewing experience at the expence of the new features? May be some day when they have nothing else to do...
miko
-
This thread really strayed right off the bat.
Two things are being discussed that really are completely different issues.
Should players be able to design skins that will be used in the game? I can't think of a single reason why not.
Should players be able to paint any aircraft in the game any color? I can think of reasons why this should not be allowed.
Player contributed skins and terrains should be encouraged at some level. It encourages contribution and increases the sense of community. Kind of ironic considering the tools necessary to do this are not available to most of the community. But, it works.. I've seen it in the past.
I'm not really a big fan of the "paint your own plane" mentallity, however. Maybe some kind of square box similar to the Squad Logo could be alotted for pilots to do their own thing... some kind of nose art window.
AKDejaVu
-
I don't see any reason why players wouldn't be allowed to use others own skins or default skins.
But player should be only allowed to paint own plane and see other planes either as default or by skins made by the players for their plane.
For host setting, there should be also option to prevent using either default or player skins. (or even make third option, which would enable premade skins for the arena, that everyone should use)
-
Ammo> Geez m8 where ya been, I'm currently making a sequel..'Revvin in Aces High Part II: The Revenge' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Been flying for the last few weeks after being tempted back, primarily by my old squaddie Wilbus and been having a real blast...looking forward to v1.06
Tac> What about if said custom skins were enabled by the CM's, perhaps have some kind of config file they can load with a default set of skins for a certain area eg. playing a eastern front scenario the CM could load up a config to have all planes enabled in the scenario default to their respective winter camo so nobody is flying around in desert camo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think this could add so much to the immersion as you form up on the runway and then fly alongside your wingman in a historically accurate camo.
Miko2d> I would like to see all planes have the correct skin for the scenario as I explained above so it would not be a waste of resources just for the film recorder, imagine if what I described above was taken a step further and HTC decide for one TOD the run a terrain with a semi winter type of terrain texture and then enabled winter camo's for all planes then the next TOD we had a more summer type terrain with the corresponding camo's. Its not ground breaking and not impossible but it is something that other sims have not done as a feature in their main arena format and on top of that apart from the initial work at setting up the information for the community to be able to do this then they can carry on working on whatever update is pending and let the community take some of the strain off them.
-
HTC is a trend setter, not a trend follower.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Should players be able to design skins that will be used in the game? I can't think of a single reason why not.
Should players be able to paint any aircraft in the game any color? I can think of reasons why this should not be allowed.
I agree,
I think that adding the option to "paint" your plane would add a whole new level of immersion and FUN to the game, it would give you a better sense that the plane your flying is YOUR plane. I love the idea.
Plus, the real fun would be in trying to make the REALISTIC paintjobs like camo patterns and stuff like that, i for one would paint my P-38 like the 202 just because it is such a cool pattern.
-
I'm all for user created plane skins submitted thru HTC to the community, with the download OPTIONAL from HTC's addon's page.
My concern is that we have many user terrains already been created, some that are truely FANTASTIC, but have not yet been accepted and implemented into the MA. Would skins be any different?
With these outstanding terrains some MAY experience FPS hits, however with the feature added last ver. of scaling via shift F1, F2, etc. I really don't see as it would be a great issue.
If HTC creates a tool for skins like it did with the terrain editor, will they use community addons anymore than they do now?
Somehow I don't think so, I'm not informed as to why HTC doesn't use these terrains, but I suspect the same reason would apply to created skins.
-
Because no one has made terrain for the MA. Luzon, Stalingrad, ETO terrain are all great and will be used for the SEA when events are run that require that terrain.
However the MA is a lot different and requires each country to have equal advantages, disadvantages and terrain for the most part.
If anyone remembers the MA in WB with the Med terrain, it left a lot of areas vulnerable and a lot of areas that were impossible to capture.
-SW
-
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Because no one has made terrain for the MA. Luzon, Stalingrad, ETO terrain are all great and will be used for the SEA when events are run that require that terrain.
However the MA is a lot different and requires each country to have equal advantages, disadvantages and terrain for the most part.
If anyone remembers the MA in WB with the Med terrain, it left a lot of areas vulnerable and a lot of areas that were impossible to capture.
-SW
user terrain skin: All the cool things people have posted. These could be implemented into any current or past main arena terrain by HTC by switching out the compile files. This is usually what people want, a new look to the terrain tiles, and a move away from the basic 5 that have been with us since beta: grass, forest, rock, farm, water.
user terrain: the topographic information and actual design of a terrain from the ground up via the terrain editor, which may or may not include new user terrain tiles. The TE makes it possible to import skins and include them with the topographic information via compiling.
There have been MANY MANY MANY user terrain SKINS created for use with say, any of the current terrains. This is what so many people have been messing with, and not extensively working on a new terrain for the main arena. It's relatively easy to change, with the exception of the MA skins, because of the potnetial problem for HTC by releasing the compilation files without something along the lines of an NDA. If they were available though, any past terrain could be reskined with any of the user terrains skins.
This is generally what has kept many of the people working on skins so baffeled -- the MA skins could be changed so easily via HTC using user created skins...
I don't what the deal is, apparently someone keeps thinking the demo terrains, to show what the skins actually look like when applied to AH engine, are what have been submitted for the main arena, with no relevance to the work that went into skin creation/editing being considered (well, untill recently)
- Bess
-
I think full player skins is a bad idea but i would like to see some way of personalising aircraft as in coloured letter markings or tail bands of a certain size or cowling colour...basically what they had during the war.These would be unobtrusive and we could agree on how different it can go.This should be something you have to earn i think tho
one good way would be to finish in the top 50 in a tour in any catagory(planes/vehicles) means you are 'entitled' to personalise your plane/vehicle
or how about just a choice of paintschemes like desert/snow/sea/land types?
hell i dont know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
-
I'm with ya there. Paint schemes would be nice. I think it would be very unrealistic to have pink planes flying around the main arena.
Years ago, there was a Mac sim called SkyFighters that allowed individual paint jobs. Nash used to fly this cloud/sky colored aircraft that was very difficult to see. He's very talented at ACM (as some are aware). Being near invisible just made it that much more difficult.
If I have the opportunity to paint an aircraft anyway I wanted, I'd do the same and paint it to match the sky for A2A missions. Can't see that as being fair (or realistic) at all but I'd do it.
-
I say it would be good to separate plane skin sections into costumizable parts. Like I said in another post, Tail, Nose, Engine, Wingtip, Wing Center, Wing Root, Middle Fuselage, etc etc.
These parts would be allowed to be set with a skin and background color. So, if I wanted a shark grin on the nose of my plane, and I want my plane to be completely black, I would set the "background color" of all the sections black and add the shark grin skin on my nose. Tadaa!
However, all textures (aka graphics or skins) must be from a library that the AH program has. No player-made and inserted skins or textures or graphics. Why? Well, if this was allowed then you would have to download every sucker's paint scheme when you fly..or disable the feature, which defeats the whole purpose. By using game set skins/graphics/skins you wont have to do that.
The whole purpose of painting your plane is the same as why WW2 squadrons had distinctive colorings... the Tuskegee Airmen had their tail painted all red, one of the fighters we have now has a blue nose, a german squadron had green hearts,etc. The point was to let others know who you were.
So you would know when you see a pink P-38 flying around.. "thats wobble!!" or "that guy's from that squadron, hes got the markings", etc, etc.
Also, players should NOT be allowed to paint OTHER players planes on their own FE. That would lead to outright cheating by having all the other planes painted bright pink or neon green so you can shoot them easier.
-
Perhaps I did not explain or you guys are missing the point, only art submittedto HTC would get included, it would not take the form of an easily changed standard format such as a .jpeg, .gif, .bmp it would be some kind of downloadable file, for the sake of argument call it a 'skin pack' this pack would be the only external art file to work in Aces High and the file would could be digitally signed and encrypted the same way the other files areso that if an altered file was trying to be used the user would fail the security check AH has in place now that stops people modding the game and boot them from the server.
What I am asking for is the facility to make camo's and submit them to HTC for inclusion, and ONLY those camo's for inclusion, what I am not asking for is just another little paint prog to paint pink/neon planes or to paint your plane to look like some lame hot-rod with flaming wheel arches etc.
So just to re-cap incase there is still any confusion....there would not be any way a player could make pink/neon planes and use them unless HTC authorised that artwork for some strange reason.
-
(http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/skins.jpg)
Here is one of the dangers of playerside-only graphics. Only 5 minutes in Photoshop...
-
It took you 5 minutes to drag a Yak cockpit over a screenshot of a zeke, then lower the opacity? eek.
-
jesus you worrywarts just dont get it!
thats why we submit teh skin designs to a skin group with intelligent non cheaters picked by htc like the CMs
not just let any dipshit paint stuff pink
you guys really are wayy too paranoid
-
I don't care if there is player submitted skin, so long as it is only unique for squads... squads with 4 people or more in them. Otherwise you'll have 150 seperate skins in the air at once, and if you do WANT to see unique skins you are stuck cuz then everyone and their mother is using them and that will kill your framerate due to texture loading.
-SW
-
well the only problum i see with it is im no artist (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
------------------
DRILL
-
No, it only took 5 minutes to go to the HTC site, select two screen shots, do a select on the Yak cockpit, mask out the sky, drop it onto the zeke screenshot, then lowered the opacity. I'm at work, you see, no game installed here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think I did pretty well in 5 minutes, don't you?
And the point is many are clamoring for player-only art without realizing there are valid reasons for restricting it- the cloud-colored a/c example being one. Who is to say you can't make all planes bright pink on your display so that people cannot sneak up on you?
IF proper precautions are taken player-only art MIGHT work. It is important and complicated enough that any game developer concerned with the integrity of their product will move cautiously in this area.
-
Originally posted by hazed-:
This should be something you have to earn i think tho
one good way would be to finish in the top 50 in a tour in any catagory(planes/vehicles) means you are 'entitled' to personalise your plane/vehicle
hazed
I think I like this idea....yeah....it would make a great way to find those top level pilots and organize squad night hunts for them. Can you imagine the level of whining when you swoop down over him repeatedly on the runway and vulch him over and over? Oh joy....
-
Originally posted by Zigrat:
jesus you worrywarts just dont get it!
thats why we submit teh skin designs to a skin group with intelligent non cheaters picked by htc like the CMs
not just let any dipshit paint stuff pink
you guys really are wayy too paranoid
Exactly what i'm saying. Only HTC-approved skins and textures would be put in the hard-coded part of the game so the player can select his skin/texture.
As far as the coloring, if I want to have my P-38 seen black or pink or red by everyone else, that is MY choice. What I dont want players to be allowed to do is set how they see other's plane's camo/skins in their FE.
I remember in Jane's F-15 you would just edit the skin on the f15 to be bright yellow and ALL f-15's in the air would look bright yellow..but only to you. Talk about easy gunfights.
"not just let any dipshit paint stuff pink"
Yep, if I wanted to paint my plane pink, only MY plane would be pink, all others would see my plane pink, I wouldnt see other's planes pink. For my part, I'd love to paint my P-38 completely black so that everyone knows who they are shooting down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-07-2001).]
-
<sigh> OK Kieren well done m8 so you lowered the opacity from a screenshot, now I challenge you to use that cockpit online..go on m8 if it really is that easy, tell you what I don't want to see you waste your time because you just won't be able to do it...why? because HTC control the artwork as they would with user submitted stuff and you can't use any old image and go online and use it because the security checks the server does when you log on will not permit it as they would if you went online in a pink plane or tried to use pink planes as the texture for other aircraft.
<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so small little fingers could follow it as they read it
-
I think some guys just don't understand how easy this whole thing becomes if the development team is willing to support it.
OK, say you've got some gee-whiz, transparent skin for your plane and hot pink skins for all the CHogs on your FE. How do you use it online? Go ahead, use it! You can't, can you? Not without hacking. And if you could "safely" hack it THEN, you can safely hack it NOW, so it's a non-issue.
The only skins you'll see are the ones you DOWNLOAD, just as the only planes you can fly are the ones included in the "sanctioned" software updates. The only skins you can DOWNLOAD are the ones HTC authorizes. The GRAPHIC file for the skin can be .bmp, .tif, whatever, but the ACTUAL file is something encoded by HTC. Which means, again, the only guys who can cheat are the guys with the expertise to HACK, and those guys can hack the artwork right NOW, so player-submitted skins, with HTC "quality/security control" are not any more likely to be cheated on than anything in the sim right now.
At the worst, you make the skin an integral part of the aircraft model itself (again, "encoded" by HTC) and you have several "authorized" versions of each plane, differing only in paint scheme. Don't want a bunch of "extra" planes? Don't download 'em.
Now consider the added "fun factor" of having all those skins for scenarios, historical squad colors, etc, etc (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
-
Okay, but you missed somein' Revvin.
Even if HTC controls and monitors the skins being submitted, HTC still has to allow the FE to be "updated" with imported images that are used to skin the aircraft. So, this in turn allows a guy to futz around with his own FE, thus giving him the ability to have an imported invisible mode cockpit. See here's how it works.. HTC approves the skin, then releases some kind of update or something that imports the skin and instead of importing the approved one.. he changes it a little and voila, he imports an invisi mode cockpit.
Now lets say they don't let the end user import the graphics. Imagine how much SLOWER the dev time becomes because they have to approve the skins, then PRODUCE an UPDATE that PACKAGES these skins together to ensure the end user can't swap skins to bright pink or invisible cockpit on his FE.
-SW
-
<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so small little fingers could follow it as they read it
Totally uncalled for, Revvin.
I make a post showing one of the concerns of user-end-only art, not stating that it can't be done, only showing what could be done if proper precautions aren't taken. I totally understand how the skins get readied and used online, that the checks are made, and that versions better match up.
If anyone needs to read a little slower, it is you, "m8". If you don't want discussion just say so, maybe we can even get a "Revvin Pontificates" forum set up for you...
-
Why would people be allowed to edit cockpit graphics?
I don't see any point that.. all we want is just skin over the plane, for others to see, right?
Besides, you could already probably do that same with some ages old video drivers..
I remember when I first time got voodoo 1 and it had some ages old drivers and warbirds 3D didn't quite like it - I saw only instrument gauges, but otherwise through the plane.
thats one good example.
(no, I didn't cheat.. I went to get new drivers when I realised that it might be good choice.. and well.. not much good to run 3D with 5 FPS either)
-
Jedi> BINGO! Thank you! that was what I was trying to say
AKSeaWulfe> "futz around with his own FE" yes but any "futzing round" (nice expression (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) with his FE would not allow him to pass the normal server security check so he would not be able to log on, or would and then get immediatley booted and possibly banned..not the actions of the casual Aces High player spending $30 a month to play. The update could come in the form of an encrypted file format that is not readable by normal applications, no .tif, .gif's or anything just one encrypted file, or better still HTC regulaly gives us updates, why not hold skins and include them in the new version or if the file size got too big an option of two updates packages, one with skins and one without that way when new planes come along the guys that like to fly one particular plane (yes I'm looking at yo the Pony Mafia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) they would still have something extra to look forward to such as a 'Tuskegee Airmen' skin and so on,might just take the sting out of seeing the Luftwaffe get another plane in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Kieran> OK so I might be advised not to post when arguing with the missus but your post took the whole debate out of context and only served to scare monger, what we were talking about was encrypted file updates and what you did was take a screenshot off the HTC web-site, alter it and then say how easy it would be to cheat! it would not! what you did in now way shape or form proved that tha facility to 'skin' your plane would create more cheats, if you're going to post then please follow the thread and read it through and not make some ad-hock example that bears no resemblance to the discussion taking place. Besides I'm more than capable of holding my own in a discussion without needing my own forum, but thanks for your concern (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think the thread title covers the worries about cheating "Will HTC follow the trend?" in other words other sims ARE doing this, Warbirds and Target Korea so they have obviously considered their stance on player art and looked at every angle of this feature before commiting their business to using utilising this feature, it CAN be done and they ARE doing it. This discussion has turned into worries over cheating rather than discuss how many of us actually would like the feature...it can work and there are others making this feature available, so with one last attempt I'll try and get back on topic...Will HTC follow the trend?....should he?
-
What Jedi said.
Customized skins done properly only enhance the sim, no more of a risk than what you have currently.
And you will find that alot of the guys doing these are hardcore about accuracy. IMO the player skins are nicer than the developers because the can put the extra time & effort into them.
A few examples:
http://www.xaerostrike.homestead.com/index.html (http://www.xaerostrike.homestead.com/index.html)
http://furball.dogfighter.com/wbiiipaint/index.html (http://furball.dogfighter.com/wbiiipaint/index.html)
And I can tell you from reading the Paint Forum many hours go into research on correct colors, letters, numbers, and so on.
Even myself, I am one of 5 people to recieve the P-51 early before being released to the public for demo reasons. It has taken me and several 352nd FG historians 8 weeks of research to find the correct original color blues that the "Blue Nosed Bastards" painted their P-51Bs & P-51Ds noses with.
How many sims you think are out there that go to that level of accuracy on their skins? None. Dedicated players do.
It`s all good.
Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
352nd Fighter Group.com
"Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
[This message has been edited by sky_bax (edited 03-07-2001).]
-
mmmmmm Fighting 99th paint job on a Pony... I might actually fly one then. Ooooo and we're just getting the P51B next version too. Damn, I wish they did the P51B in the 99th's colors. (Tuskegee Airmen)
So long as the files can not be hacked or edited, then it sounds good to me. As long as HTC approves them and tests them, then includes them in a monthly(or bi-weekly?) update it could be good.
I'd really like to redo the La5's paint, and do a REAL paint job for the 190F8.. (they had a solid tone color with squiggly lines randomly placed over it).
It would be cool, as long as it's done properly.
-SW
-
now I challenge you to use that cockpit online..go on m8 if it really is that easy, tell you what I don't want to see you waste your time because you just won't be able to do it...why?
You won't want to do it, I discovered by accident an older NVidea driver that when tweaked a certain way will give you a "wonder woman" 6 and 12 view.
It's damn hard to fly without the points of reference the cockpit gives you.
-
Revvin-
Really hard to turn the other cheek this time... think I'll let you have your own "discussions" in the future.
-
Kieran> Whats your problem? you try to scare monger by making an example bearing no resemblance to anything discussed in the topic and now you want to try and make up some kind of petty animosity and further take the discussion further from the topic it started as?
The challenge still stands if you want to accept it..use that cockpit image you made above online and prove you can cheat, you'd be doing us all a favour if you could by pointing out a hole in HTC's security so he could close it but I'm sure you won't be able to do it as I'm sure you would not be able to do if HTC allowed us to submit skins and controlled them in the ways outlined above by the other guys posting.
You can't get away from it..the bottom line is skins will work and other sims producers are laying their business down as a stake to prove it and they will not have done this without looking at all the pro's and con's and possible ways cheats could exploit it and they are sure enough to implement skins, they are using skins so will HTC follow the trend and let the community have a tool that could add alot to Aces High with a little initial work. Please try and stay on topic, this is not about cheating as its not an issue to two other sims that will be using this feature..would you like to see it in Aces High?
[This message has been edited by Revvin (edited 03-07-2001).]
-
My "problem" is that you didn't bother to read what I posted. If you had you would note that I only advocated a cautious approach. If you read some of the other responses prior to my post (containing the picture) you would see there was a group of people discussing having custom art that would only appear on their end. They seemed (to me) to be saying "what I see on my end is my business". My picture was meant to illustrate why that cannot be allowed to go unregulated. You see, I was in fact supporting your argument.
Instead of reading it that way you unloaded a bunch of sarcasm laced insults at my intelligence. My "problem" is that, even if you had been right in your interpretation of the intent of my post (which you weren't) you took a vicious method to respond to it. You say you can hold your own in a debate- if that is what you call a debate, I guess you are right.
BTW, I never, EVER said I could, would, or should use the picture I made online. You my friend are reading into my statement whatever it is you want. I simply pointed out a concern that any developer might have with allowing custom skins- now please tell me why I am so stupid to make that assumption? Once again I will say to you I am quite aware that the host server checks the graphics used, and that mismatches are flagged.
You have misread me from the very start and are trying to portray me as saying something I most certainly didn't. That is what my "problem" is.
Should players be able to paint any aircraft in the game any color? I can think of reasons why this should not be allowed.
-AKDejaVu
This line got me to thinking "I can think of a perfect example".
Years ago, there was a Mac sim called SkyFighters that allowed individual paint jobs. Nash used to fly this cloud/sky colored aircraft that was very difficult to see. He's very talented at ACM (as some are aware). Being near invisible just made it that much more difficult.
-Sandman
Another good quote to follow. Notice he wasn't exactly against using the skins, just noting one of the problems he's seen.
Also, players should NOT be allowed to paint OTHER players planes on their own FE. That would lead to outright cheating by having all the other planes painted bright pink or neon green so you can shoot them easier.
-Tac
Another valid point. Notice he didn't say that a person could get away with this, he said it is something he wouldn't want to see- neither would I.
As far as the coloring, if I want to have my P-38 seen black or pink or red by everyone else, that is MY choice. What I dont want players to be allowed to do is set how they see other's plane's camo/skins in their FE.
-Tac
Completely against this one. Of course this gets taken care of by HTC, but it is still in the category of something disruptive a player can potentially do.
AKDejaVu hit it squarely when he suggested there were two lines of comments here; those that related to skins for everyone, those that related to personal aircraft. They both can be fairly rolled into the ball of "user contributed art". Within that context, and considering the above quotes, I don't believe my posts, any of them, were out of line.
Finally, you came in here with a chip on your shoulder I believe. You were looking for trouble- I was just silly enough to think perhaps you wanted to discuss the matter thoroughly, not simply lead us down the path to the conclusion you had already drawn before you arrived here.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 03-07-2001).]
-
Kieran> Whats your problem? you try to scare monger by making an example bearing no resemblance to anything discussed in the topic and now you want to try and make up some kind of petty animosity and further take the discussion further from the topic it started as?
Really? Who posted this line?
<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so small little fingers could follow it as they read it
As your post was directed at me, I take that as a direct insult. I guess I am petty for being offended by it, too.
-
This is clearly an emotive topic. Take a look at:
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/mthuff/index.html (http://www3.mistral.co.uk/mthuff/index.html)
to see what has been possible in the past with other games. This is not an attempt to flag-wave for AW3, but rather to show what is at least possible with that game - with the co-operation of the games developers. (IE not making the FE graphics encrypted)
These points are important to the issue:
1. Skins setting *has* to be done at the FE end, and would involve each player seeing different skins on the same aircraft.
2. Previous experience (with AW3) shows that the vast majority of player generated skins are historically accurate, rather than "neon" high visibilty, and in fact "neon" skins gave little or no combat advantage. Provided that the player generated skins are made freely available (as we did with AW3) then there's no reason for anyone to "suffer" from low visibilty default skins, when there's a whole range of differnt historical skins, and terrains, to choose from.
2. It keeps the game fresh, and stimulates a whole cottage industry in skins painting, which can offer a creative outlet within the community for people whose ACM is perhaps average.
3. It is almost certainly possible for the version checking software that AH uses to selectively check. In other words, to avoid checking "skins" in order that player generated content may be used.
4. All this hinges on whether "glass-cockpits" - like the yak pciture above, can be disallowed in some way, so that no player can obtain an unfair advantage by adding transparent or transluscent windows in his cockpit where none exists on the default art.
I'm a firm believer that variety is good, and there's only so far that new aircraft can take a game, ultimatly there needs to be visual variety and "customisabilty" for it to survive in the long term.
Regards, Fidd
-
I would dearly love to see a choice of skins available for the planeset. Taking the Spitfire alone, imagine how many people would be happy to have a more personalised country aircraft (French, Canadian, Australian etc...).
I honestly don't see a problem with having different skins available purely because the noseart has to be submitted to HTC, so surely the skins would have to meet a certain criteria and then personally okay'd by HTC. I am sure we would all trust HTC to choose the best skins submitted - I know some of you guys are experts at this sort of thing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Finally, make the skins an optional download where they are updated on a monthly basis. Have a base download, and then after that just have patches for each individual month. Surely this would save on download times for those concerned with that aspect.
Just my pennies worth.
Regards
Nexx
-
Btw HTC could encode approved skins just as they already do to their own front end.
As previously stated, if you could hack that without getting caught, then you could hack right now without getting caught.
- Bess
-
I think it's agreed that historicasly correct skins can only enhance a scenario, but there remains concern that a player would wish to fly a pink P51.
Why is this? While the MA can be immersive, it's by no means historical, and it seems a bit far fetched to demand that both the Spit atacking your Lanc and the Lanc it's self should bear historicaly stock paint schemes.
On the Other hand we're all aware of historical figures that did, in fact fly the eqivalent of the pink P51, such as Richtofen, so an historical argument can well be made for the principle of the pink P51......
In the long run, what happens in the MA is irrelevant 'cos, well, it's the MA.
What happens in a Scenario should be tightly controled by the CM's. Re-skinning of AC can help a long way towards covering missing planes in the plane set for a given battle.
The only real issue is that of a level playing field, the issue of glass cockpits. I think this an unlikely problem given that the cockpits in AH are generated by the 3D engine, there's no textures to be manipulated.
-
I can't get why "pink" skin should be banned ...
If we still have a the standard icon even a blinking skin won't denouce you as quickly as the icon.
-
LOL Kieran you really are full of it!
Kieran whined:
Finally, you came in here with a chip on your shoulder I believe. You were looking for trouble- I was just silly enough to think perhaps you wanted to discuss the matter thoroughly, not simply lead us down the path to the conclusion you had already drawn before you arrived here.
Point out anythign in my original post that was indicative of somebody having a chip on their shoulder? show me where I was looking for an argument! I had made my own opinion of this and then posted it here to ask others what they thought, to discuss if anyoen else would liek to see it. What you did was try and steer it away from its intended topic and scare monger by posting something that had no relevance to the topic being discussed, how does pulling a screenshot off the HTC site and making it opaque prove that people would cheat or could cheat? that screenshot did not prove one thing except you can't follow the topic of a thread, just merely take things out of context and repost to suit yourself.
Kieran whinged:
As your post was directed at me, I take that as a direct insult. I guess I am petty for being offended by it, too.
Was it? are you sure? If it was I would have posted "<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so Kierans small little fingers could follow it as he read it" So where in that sentance did I direct it at you? at that particular time I was wondering if it was worth trying to post anymore on the subject as some people perhaps could not grasp the fact that others ARE using custom skins so it is possible therefore rendering any discussion of cheating totally pointless. AKSeaWulfe was worried about cheating but at least he posted something relevant to the topic in hand.
If you were offended by that sentance then perhaps the cap fits you, looks nice on you.
If you want to spit any more bile at me then please start another thread and let the rest of us discuss this topic in peace. The whole shame of it is that this thread may never see a reply from HTC because you decided to take it so personal and start a flame session.
-
What Fidd and Seerker said. It can be a "plus", a "positive" feature.
An Afrika/MEd terrain looks great but kind of silly when the planes being used look like they belong hundres of miles to the north attacking or defending Bremen.
-Westy
-
Ahem-
Could you point to where the first insult was hurled? That aside, can you point to where I said I should use my picture online? Aside from that, could you tell me why suggesting caution is a bad idea?
Notice that you are still resorting to sarcasm and insult to drive your point home. Notice that you still haven't addressed that I have not said anything near what you accuse me of. I am not a sky is falling type character. Your cut-n-paste comment of "scare mongering" is especially hilarious to me, because I made that in an attempt to shore up support for your idea- you know, with proper precautions it could be done, but if we rush this could happen?
Notice by the way who is using words like "whine" and "petty" and "spit" and "bile"- this isn't discussion, is it?
I even was ready to bow out of the discussion:
Revvin-
Really hard to turn the other cheek this time... think I'll let you have your own "discussions" in the future.
Then you had to respond with this continued attack:
Kieran> Whats your problem? you try to scare monger by making an example bearing no resemblance to anything discussed in the topic and now you want to try and make up some kind of petty animosity and further take the discussion further from the topic it started as?
The challenge still stands if you want to accept it..use that cockpit image you made above online and prove you can cheat, you'd be doing us all a favour if you could by pointing out a hole in HTC's security so he could close it but I'm sure you won't be able to do it as I'm sure you would not be able to do if HTC allowed us to submit skins and controlled them in the ways outlined above by the other guys posting.
Why are you challenging me to do anything? Where did I suggest I would try such a thing? Further, I layed out my reason (in an attempt to reach understanding with you) for the post. You obviously only skimmed that one, too, and here you are heaping more insult upon me. Normally I would have ignored you by now, but you are plugging words into my mouth in order to run me off. I want the record cleared (for my conscience's sake) that I tried to communicate with you in an adult manner. I also want it clear that it was you who lowered this thread to insult to begin with. Call it a whine if you like, but it is a fact.
I am quite happy to ignore you. All you have to do is ignore this post and I am gone from the thread. Let's see if you are big enough to ignore it.
-
LOL
Kieran wimpered:
I am quite happy to ignore you. All you have to do is ignore this post and I am gone from the thread. Let's see if you are big enough to ignore it.
Translated as "Well I want to have my cake and eat it, I've tried and tried to take this thread away from its intended topic but you won't let me Revvin, now I have to resort to shame tactics and frantically try and take some moral ground by challengign you to ignore my abrasive post"
You really like to keep the flams licking don't you, want this discussion to stray further from its intended topic? Those last lines really are childish. Why should I ignore your snide comments, start your own thread on cheating if you like but this is about player art being submitted. Others are going to be using this feature so cheating is not an issue here, what I would like to know is who would like to see this feature so that perhaps we can approach HTC if there is enough interest in a more ordely fashion to ask that he implement this feature.
So I'll carry on asking who would like to see this feature and perhaps one day we might see it, if you don't like it do as you said you would half a dozen posts ago and turn the other cheeck and move on.
-
Didn't think you could do it.
BTW, it is "whimpered". Pontificate on.
-
Translated as "Well I want to have my cake and eat it, I've tried and tried to take this thread away from its intended topic but you won't let me Revvin, now I have to resort to shame tactics and frantically try and take some moral ground by challengign you to ignore my abrasive post"
Ironic, eh? You doing exactly what I said, sticking words in my mouth?
Let's get back to the thread; your suggestion is that everyone else (other developers) uses this feature, why don't we? They have thought of all the angles, why don't we use their model? Care to tell me what you believe is safe to discuss then? Looks to me like the conversation is all tied up and we just need to nod in unison.
Personally I don't think this is a make-or-break feature. I don't want to see pink aircraft anywhere in the arena. I don't want cheating. I don't want development slowed down (and yes, I recognize that the plan has the potential to speed up production, but the reverse is also true).
-
Well now you've got back on topic (almost) I'll ignore the first childish reply, it only served to prove my point.
The thread was a question to the rest of the community, it was not about cheating or how it could be used to cheat it was a simple question should HTC do it.
You're right its not a make or break feature but one feature which could add so much to the online experience and I truly believe it won't cause too much burden to be placed on HTC once they give us the parameters we need to use to create them, perhaps an initial slow down at first but this will come with a larger benefit in the future. The topic wasall about the communities opinion on wehter this should be implemented if the majority want it then why not, you obviously don't and I take offense at you trying to colour the argument with scare mongering images where I just delivered my thoughts in the thread and let it run, my input came in when I could see you movig the discussion away from its intended topic.
-
Read my lips:
I never said I was against this; I said we need to be careful. Don't take my comments on the topic to mean I am against anything other than what I specifically said; pink aircraft, cheaters, or slowing development.
It is not a simple question in my opinion. Anything that opens the door to possible cheating must be examined carefully. To you this seems an "open-and-shut" case, to me it isn't. Any concern I have raised has been criticized by you as "fear mongering". So, how do I raise one of my concerns without you going ballistic?
Read my posts again, please!