Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on February 16, 2013, 03:08:26 AM
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The one thing I have so much trouble with is avoiding an opponent who's diving in from above and behind. I can avoid the rookies with ease all day long as they just dive in with a horrible approach and point their nose at me, but someone who knows how to come in on a perfect attack run I just can not get away from without at least an oil leak.
I know the long term goal is to neutralize the alt advantage they have, but what should I be doing for the short term goal of trying not to get shot in the process? Should I wait until they're within 1K and split-s, then climb in the other direction? Should I climb, using their speed against them knowing they can't pull that many G's without ripping their wings off? What should I do if they predicted my move?
My favorite approach has been to turn into them and at about 800 yards I roll wings level, pull hard into a climb, and then roll into them as they pass below and behind me (maybe getting a short window of opportunity to shoot them). But this has gotten me shot as many times as it has succeeded. More often than that I break hard into their attack trying to get nose on so I can duck under their attack or get to a position where they have to reverse their turn, but they somehow still get inside my turn and fill me with led. I think I'm misjudging their E (they're probably letting off the throttle so as to not build up as much speed), but knowing that isn't enough obviously. I need to know what to do as they're easing off the throttle to keep behind me, and that is something I do not know.
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Heya Latrobe,
granted Sir, I asked you to join us tonight in the DA ( me, kappa, sc0tch, Shuffler, Changeup, BigR, Sawzall ) I was drinking, but I all of us could have helped you in this instance, specifically BigR and kappa... even maybe me........
if you would like to work on your situation, PM me and I will wok with you...... it has beeen a LONG time since we have fought each other best of my recollection.... other than that I suggest Badboy to find your delimma, Sir!!!
Hope This Helps... and I am willing to help... just PM me....
TC
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Thanks for the offer TC, will have to think about it. I'm not the easiest person to teach though (not by a looooooong shot, I very much lack the ability to learn anything at a normal speed even).
Here's 3 films of an example where someone is making a diving attack at me, and you can literally see from my flying that I am at a complete lose as to what to do. I have seen this exact scenario hundreds of times by now and I still haven't the slightest clue how to avoid the death I can see coming a mile away.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qh15ibdn71jnss2
http://www.mediafire.com/?spjxi3cpqi9qvpz
http://www.mediafire.com/?f5uzyhc5acxejqg
(ignore my comments in the last video, I was just getting PO'd at myself again and talking stupider than usual)
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While I'm no pro, it seems odd to me that you are trying to equalize "E" while burning it.
In the first film you seem to freeze when you see the Mossie come around over the top. You stop your attack on the F6 and seem to fly strait waiting for him to dive in, then as he gets close you go for the move. For me I would have turned in the direction of the F6 to make it seem like I was still on him... target fixated. Once I was sure the mossi was in I'd have nosed down a bit and started turning into the mossie. I continue the turn tightening it as he closes making him adjust the whole way in. As he was going to guns, I'd pull to almost black out, nose up and into a barrel roll in the opposite direction looking for that snap shot.
You just seemed to wait too long to do anything. You handled the spitty fine, you could do the same with the mossie. I think the trick is to keep them adjusting the whole way through their pass. If they have time to line you up, a guy with a good aim WILL knock parts off.
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I agree with Fugitive on the first one. The idea of appearing to be fixated on the F6 is good but fundamentally speaking your defense against the Mossie was really just a vertical pull.
There are two real keys to the BRD. Movement in three dimensions to create crossing rates across his direction of motion to defeat your adversary's shot and creating flight path overshoot due to his rate of closure and track crossing angle. You went for the overshoot but did not create the crossing rate problem for him because you stayed in your original vertical plane of motion. You did point your wingtip at him but then rolled and put the other on him but you never pulled across his nose which is why you stayed in your original plane of motion. Basically, he could see where you were going and just pulled the lead he needed. Had he missed his shot you would have gotten a flight path overshoot but he didn't. Had you simply rolled to put one wingtip on him and pulled down he would have made both vertical and horizonal corrections and changes to his lead. The vertical, horizonal, and closure rates would be the three dimensional problem he would have to solve. This is exactly what you did with the Mossie attack in the second film which was perfectly timed (especially given you were actually defending against both the Mossie and the Spit in the same move) so I think that in the first film it was either a matter of misjudging the amount of lead he already had or a bit of indecision. That said, it's apparent from the film that you were also dealing with significant lag. From what you saw from your cockpit and what you can see from his in the film he should have missed but from his cockpit (and on his computer) he had the lead he needed.
In the second film I already mentioned that your first defense was perfect. The second against the Spit where you died was going to be problematic no matter what you did mostly because there was almost no real vertical component to the Spit's attack. In other words, in most attacks where the BRD will work you rely on the downward flight path to increase his closure, the G required to position for lead and the reduction of time (due to closure) for him to make these adjustments. You had none of that working for you during the Spit's attack as there was only 1k ft of altitude difference and his speed was well under control. You still did a credible defense but you were too slow to be able to create enough crossing rate and his speed control meant he could basically just square the corner behind you. You still had a slight flight path overshoot but not nearly enough that you would have been able to reverse on him.
In the third film I don't see a problem at all (other than fighting in the CV ack). Your BRD against the Mossie was classic. A slightly nose low horizontal turn forcing him to roll and adjust to the new plane of motion followed by a perfectly timed roll to put your wingtip on him with the vertical pull and tight barrel roll to convert to a 3-9 overshoot followed by your shot at his six.
I don't see where you have any problem (especially from these films where you were always starting with a positional and numbers disadvantage) but here's a thought. Judging from your film, choice of ride and extensive vertical moves in a multi-bandit environment you fight aggressively and I think you may see the BRD in the same way I do. To me the BRD is an offensive maneuver. I'm usually less worried about actually defending than I am about setting up my shot as he overshoots by converting his flight path overshoot into a 3-9 line overshoot with a tight maneuver to get my nose back on him which means I wait until the very last possible second to defend and do a tight defensive barrel roll to convert and position myself for the shot. As anyone who does the BRD knows, timing is critical. Do it too early and you spoil the surprise and your adversary can adjust (or just come off high) but if you do it too late you're toast especially if there's significant internet lag. To use this as an aggressive offensive maneuver, you need to wait till the very last second to really sucker him in and ensure he's fully committed nose low and then only create enough crossing rates to defeat his shot otherwise your nose is too out of position to convert his overshoot into a 3-9 line one or your range is too great to get the shot. The downside to this is when that very last second was a fraction of a second too late and he nails you but I love an aggressive BRD because there are few shots as satisfying as when you take a guy that has all the advantages and put a bullet into the back of his skull when he least expects it. Of course, being aggressive with the BRD also increases the risk and I'll die when I time things wrong but I'm OK with that. :D
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Great post Mace! :aok
Looking back, I really have no idea what I was going in that first film. Most likely possibility is my own idiocy took over and said "Hey! Do this! It'll get you killed!"
The problem in the second film is he still got rounds on me. Luckily the Hispanos all missed, but he did get the 303's into me so my defense was not perfect. I either made a wrong move somewhere or I timed something wrong. I noticed the flight path overshoot growing on the Spit too and just reversed my roll too early. Had I kept my initial turn going just a little longer and pulled just a few more G's I know the overshoot would have worked perfectly and I would have had him. As for the lag, my internet is just atrocious. Should be getting 6Mb/s on download speed, but only get 1Mb max. Most the time it's under 50Kb/s, and my ISP's most recent "fix" has knocked my ping up from 80 to 230-400. So nothing I can do about the lag.
The third film again he gets shots into me (even better than in the 2nd film, but somehow I survive), so again I either made a bad move somewhere or my timing was off with something.
I do enjoy flying aggressive as you guessed. I really like getting in close, reducing the number of options we both have, and using the difference in plane performance to work my way onto their 6. I love to push my aircrafts performance to the very edge and then some, which is why I love turn fighting zekes in my 109 so much. I can push my 109 just beyond it's limit, fight the zeke on HIS terms, and still come out with a kill. I just love fighting my opponents fight, fighting on his terms, working with a disadvantage from the very start, and finding a way to win the fight. I feel that I learn a whole lot more about both our aircrafts performances and our piloting skill levels this way.
and what does BRD mean? :headscratch: :o
:salute
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and what does BRD mean?
Barrel Roll Defense
downloading films, but seems Mace has helped ya find something, and Fugitive as well.... gotta love this community ... it :rock s
TC
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Latrobe, i'm no expert but I can tell you something of my experience of flying that mossy. The fact that those guns are mounted in the nose makes it easier to make killing shots because of no convergence. On top of that, if you move your gunsight a little to the left and up you have a humongous clear area around ur aiming point. He can track ur movements real easy and he has the ammo to spare. 600rds of 20mm and you can easily shoot out to 800yds once u figure out the lead. Believe me, it gets hard to avoid them when the pilot knows how to shoot. I fly the P38 now more often but can easily shoot out to 800yds and get solid hits with them too. Like Mace was saying, timing is everything, so if the mossy opens up at 1k away, and you normally start your move at 800yds so when they normally start to shoot at 600yds. U already dead. Shuffler shot me often at 1k out because of the same reason. I waited a little too long before starting my manoeuver. Darn bullets started pinging when I was still waiting to roll :lol
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I know there are more moves you can make against a diving attack. I might have actually done them before but I wouldn't know the technical terms for them.
What else could I do besides the BRD to avoid a diving attack? Doing the same move over and over again, my opponent will eventually catch on and it won't work anymore. Or, maybe they can see what I'm planning to do which also spoils my move.
Having as many moves as possible is a must since your opponent won't know which you will pull out next.
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well you can initiate the BRD to the left or right just to mix it up a little. It is a move that can be adapted in the horizontal or vertical. The key is to deny your opponent the chance to pull enough lead for a clean kill shot. They could be right on your 6 but if they can't bring their guns to bear then that is useless.
Mace's description is probably the best I have read about it. I learn't about this move roughly 2 years into my online flying through trial and error and thousands of deaths. To put a name to it and understand all the elements about setting up the shot, when to pull hard, when to roll and when to snapshoot, took hundreds of hours. I do put it down to making me a tough SOB to hit and responsible for my above average K/D whilst still being aggressive.
I liken it to being a matador and have a raging bull trying to kill you and with all the grace and style whipping it out of the way at the last second. I wonder how many matadors get hurt whilst they are practicing :headscratch: anyway I was going to say that forcing an overshoot or making your opponent miss can be done in loads of different ways the key is timing and your decision process counter acting what your opponent is thinking.
To do this successfully over time you need to think like your enemy, if you know who they are what they are flying how aggressive they can be then adapt your approach accordingly. For me as a regular enough player and the population of the arena when I play I can usually tell whats going to happen within the limits of a small engagement. If your in with lots of guys attacking you all at once you will just suffer SA overload and not have enough time and space to execute a full BRD and equalise energy states enough for a proper kill.
So what your asking latrobe is how can you possibly improve on something with thousands of different variables and unfortunately none of us can say that there is a strict textbook or set of rules to master it. A slice of good luck and application of well practiced theory is all you can hope for to reach a zen like state of knowing everything.
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"The key is to deny your opponent the chance to pull enough lead for a clean kill shot."
This is the part that I just struggle with for some reason. An example, I see my opponent at 2K as start his diving attack from my 6, a perfect attack approach. I initiate the BRD (since it's my favorite move in this situation) and break left at 1K. My opponent sees this and corrects his approach by turning left with me trying to pull lead. At about 500-600 yards (icons are measured in yards right?), I can see that flight path overshoot I was creating starts to disappear since my opponent has corrected his attack to defeat my left turn break. I know I am in serious trouble if I continue my turn so I initiate part 2 of the BRD and pull a hard climb at 400 yards just as my opponent is lining up to pull the trigger. He tries to correct to my change in direction by pulling up into me. As I see this happening I think he doesn't have enough time left to correct his approach, and I roll over into him to try and get a quick snapshot. Only most of the time they somehow manage to pull up into me and get shots into my plane which leads to my death.
Somewhere in there I either made a wrong move (too much left turn, not enough left turn, not enough vertical movement, too much vertical) or my timing was off (came over the top too early to get the snap shot, the change from left turn to vertical climb was to early or to later). Which of these it was I haven't a clue, and I have not made any ground in solving this problem in the 6 years I've been playing.
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a quick answer is his closure rate must have been slower than expected or he was experienced enough to chop throttle and slow down enough so that he didn't overshoot giving him enough time to saddle you.
This one still catches me out now and again because sometimes people do the unexpected and want to fight! :O. If your fortunate to be in the more turny ride and realise quick enough that he has chopped then pull even harder and tighter than you were planning to initially. He is then suckered into a turn fight and has already burn't whatever energy advantage he had so you should be able to gain his 6 within a few flat turns or rolling scissors.
The other issue is that if your opponent is someone like me who has done and seen someone do it hundreds of times, I'm already sticking my guns into the position where your about to pull up into your side profile. Even If I miss i'm banking away from your barrel roll into a loose lag turn and then as you run out of E looping back in behind you for an easy kill.
To make the attacker miss if the e states are close to equal you have to generate a more tighter initial turn into him, cut his angle or try and get in underneath his guns for a more typical merge. Chances are he will want to fight if he doesn't buy into the traditional lame bnz pass. If he backs off then you need to get your nose down ASAP and reset the merge/wingover/BRD.
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So anyone willing to evaluate my attempt to put what I learned into practice? The fight starts at about the 4:30 mark and then it's basically just 10 minutes of avoiding diving attacks from all directions using BRD and a few other things. I was able to keep track of both aircrafts in all the 2v1 situations except for the brief moment I lost sight of the P51 which led to him getting a few rounds in me for the first time (7:16 mark). Luckily I don't die to any enemy fire (almost do though), but I do die from my own stupidity as I stall on the deck. Really dumb move on my part that I really should not have done.
http://www.mediafire.com/?l2279aw283wsuc5
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i'm at work so can't view it at the moment but In regards to surviving 2 different guys bnzing attacking you using repeated BRD will not help your altitude.
Usually if they play it textbook and don't even pull in for a shot you will end up diving away a number of times until you run out of airspace even more so if your fighting 2/3 of the buggers.
Your options get more limited when you hit the hard deck so you have to either, Kill one of them as quickly as possible (but that should be a priority from the start of the 2vs1 engagement) If you can't do that you need either a distraction or get one of them to auger.
If you try and save some airspeed in your evades and not dive excessively you can hold out for a bit longer and hope some help arrives.
Once argued the point with the great KI-84 pilot Wilbuz after putting him in the tower a few times, stating that 2 good pilots using team tactics would defeat a lone excellent pilot. Well I will still stand by that claim depending on some critical variables or chance, the 2 good pilots should win more often than not.
Anything more regarding survival in a 2+ vs 1 scenario relies more heavily on the plane types and the suckage of the average AHer. I'll watch it when I get home. ;)
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Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.
I did make an attempt to get rounds on the 190 on one of the overshoots and try and put one of them out of the fight, but that just led to me losing sight of the P51 and almost dying. Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off as the 190 augered, and I got my 1v1... which later turned into another 2v1 :lol , but that turned out to be a repeat of the first 2v1.
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Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.
I agree that you can fight and defeat up to say 5 vs 1 at the same time, I've done it several times in my Spitty but in every instance of that happening I have only lived with a huge slice of luck, their lack of ACM and shooting ability. All it needs is one honed shot in those 5 guys and he can just wait for the pick. If you go into every fight thinking you will best everyone you will end up having to deal with the frustration of people not committing when you need them too. I know you have a very laid back attitude latrobe and it probably doesn't effect you in the same way in regards to burn out as a long list of others.
It can only help your overall skills if you strive for the challenge of it though :aok.
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. . .I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.
. . . Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off . . . .
These are quotes I need to tape to my monitor. :aok
This thread is a good read and I have learned quite a bit.
. One interesting point i got from the film is using low altitude as a way to force a more equal E situation since one of dimension of space below you has been taken away from the diving plane. That increases the risk for the High E attacker and reduces the risk of the attachie.
Another interesting thought came to mind watching your flap work. I wonder if an opening defensive move in the right speed situation is extending flaps first before the defensive maneuver as you wait for closure so the direction change can be more dramatic when the time comes. I know from getting shot down, a high E attacker that controls the entry speed is more dangerous and requires more timely and dramatic moves.
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I read a lot of these types of threads, and think about these specific things a lot as well. Thanks for the films Latrobe, it's good to be able to sit in all the planes involved and see things from all the different perspectives. Having Mace and Bruv, among the better "real" and "virtual" pilots both contribute is great, and I'm glad most of the arena doesn't bother reading this stuff or it would make my life a lot harder.
I've flown the Spit5 a lot in the last few months, all under 10k, usually on the deck, and I find I can survive and kill even when outnumbered, but usually only when those enemy planes have average pilots, or good pilots with average shooting ability. Any combination of good or excellent in either category, and living in a 3/4/5 v 1 is much tougher to do, and requires a lot of luck.
I find my problem is falling into old habits. I've always just relied on timing in order to keep out of the enemies gunsite, and when I'm dived on by a higher con, I usually just pull up into him in a hard vertical pull and then roll back into him once he's gone sailing by with his trigger down spraying away, and try for a shot, without having pointed my wing at him at all. I find it's hard to judge when to relax that first pull, and roll my wingtip towards him, as this takes a lot of guts to try at first when just pulling straight usually works without changing my vector, or however Mace put it in terms of adding more planes of motion or whatever into the equation to complicate the enemy planes guns solution. By the time I've waited for him to get close enough for my "normal" break to work, which does in 95 percent of the cases, it's too late to try and put a wingtip on him as he's closed the distance and his relative overtake airspeed is such that there just isn't time. I think I should be pulling that first time when the enemy is further away, but still has committed to attacking me, say 1.7 or something like that, and then at 1.0 or something like that then rolling a bit to put my wingtip on him and then pulling again, then going for another roll to get him back into my sites. I wish I had some films of me failing at this, but I don't, as like I said I usually get by just doing it the "old" way, and keep a high k/d and k/time ratio with this, but I WANT to be able to do it better and how Mace, Latrobe, and Bruv are describing it.
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One interesting point i got from the film is using low altitude as a way to force a more equal E situation since one of dimension of space below you has been taken away from the diving plane. That increases the risk for the High E attacker and reduces the risk of the attachie.
This is one of my favorite things to do. Get right below the attacker so he is forced to come down at almost a 90 degree angle, avoid the shot, and wait for a proxy kill. I'd say a quarter of my kills a month are actually assists from the ground. :D
Another interesting thought came to mind watching your flap work. I wonder if an opening defensive move in the right speed situation is extending flaps first before the defensive maneuver as you wait for closure so the direction change can be more dramatic when the time comes. I know from getting shot down, a high E attacker that controls the entry speed is more dangerous and requires more timely and dramatic moves.
I have not thought of this. Usually I dump my flaps as I'm maneuvering. I would think that it would just bleed off E unnecessarily. You might avoid the attack, but you'd be very slow afterwards and probably a sitting duck for a 2nd attack. It most likely would be more affective to use angles (or plane of motion as mace put it) to keep as much of your E as you can and still forcing an overshoot
but I WANT to be able to do it better and how Mace, Latrobe, and Bruv are describing it.
Congratulations! You are now a better pilot than 80% of the MA! Just having the will to WANT to be better and improve will always automatically put you in the top 20% of best pilots, at least in my book it does. Soooo many people I've met in the MA that just could not care less about learning ACM (or just don't feel like putting forth the effort) and only care for their ego and score, so they take P51s and 190s to 20K and do the typical "1 pass and run" tactic.
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Latrobe,
I take into consideration which way the enemy plane torques when breaking into a BRD or a rolling scissor. Some of the planes might be able to adjust and pull lead for a shot because they're cutting throttle and the removal of engine torque is helping their plane roll in that direction as well.
Another thing is to try and make the enemy plane operate outside of an optimal turning speed. Trick them into gaining enough speed to where their turn radius will be large.
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OK, just watched the film. I wish the film viewer either showed the TrackIR views, or at least let me use the hat switch to change views in the viewer. I'm not real good at keeping up using the keypad.
To me it looked like you wasted a ton of E and you were luck these guys were NOT working together. They gave you a lot of time to regain any alt you were giving up in your Split-s/ low yo turns you were doing. The problem was you didn't take advantage of it. Your trying to equalize the E here and the more you throw away, the more you have to wait for them to throw theirs away, which means dodging more passes.
When they give you room to grab, grab at your best corner speed away from them. When they turn back at you go level, once they are inside that 2k mark start a very easy turn back into them. A lot of times you start the turn ok, but you go into it too hard, burning E and getting almost a head on angle instead of the 90 degrees off angle to break into the BRD. The closer to head on you get the more E your going to burn trying to come around.
Your best BRD was the next to the last one, your worst, the last one :devil You seem to do better with less time to think about it. With the zero you were doing pretty much the same moves, but smaller and tighter. Given the extra time the BnZers give you gives you time to second guess your self.
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Fugi, could you point out a part of the film where I should have chosen to extend way and get some alt? My fighter pilot mentality is to always be aggressive, even when at the disadvantage, and never show my 6 on purpose. So, I really don't have a very good idea at which point I should have went for altitude instead of the attack.
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That may be your problem, the BRD works best when you start by GIVING them your 6.
With out going through the whole film for step by steps, the pony makes the first pass on you. You maintain your speed, but start turning into him very early, which brings you around on the 190 too. I would have stayed level longer drawing the 2 enemy apart a bit more giving the 190 my six to create more separation between the passes I know are coming.
Your merge with the 51s gun pass is good and roll back into him nice, but now the 190s on you quick. If you had that extra separation you could have set him up for a better defense, but you get through it. At this point you could have used some of your speed to grab again. Both enemy were 1500 or more out and neither were trying to get aggressive. Give them your tail and grab at corning speed. You bank some alt, and maintain a good turning speed. If they are going to give you the time and space use it.
Watch Agent360s films. He spends most of his flights working up ways to give his enemies his tail so he can drag them in and kill them. I think like you said is to learn to be patient and wait for the enemy to make the mistakes, then pounce! With the BRD I like to have my wing tip pointed at them when they go to guns. If I don't quite make it there timing wise it's ok because I can still roll up and over for a snap shot or get ready for the next pass. Being early tho is bad because you burn more E going for that shot.
EDIT: ok, watched some more. At the early 6 minute mark as well as the early 7 minute mark there was time to grab. I'm not talking about zoom climbs, but get your nose up to get some of that alt back and bank a little E. The other thing is when you start you turns early like you seem to do it gives the enemy plane more time to adjust. Watch the 190s pass where he crashes with the trails on. His path hardly shows any change until the end where he stomps on the rudder to hit you and then flies into the ground. Start your turn easy and tighten it more and more. That forces him to turn more and more to pull lead. He has to pull harder to get ahead of you and so burn more E.
I think it was the 7 minute mark you had both of them under 200 and you were still over 200, but then you dove down and they both got that E back. They were NOT very aggressive so they were slow to burn E, but even then you had them but gave it back. Basically any time I'm not dodging I'm grabbing as long as I have my corning speed. Murdr use to say try to get multiple bogies in the same quadrant/area. It's easier to keep and eye on them and it gives you a good angle to grab some alt while giving them your 6.
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I have not thought of this. Usually I dump my flaps as I'm maneuvering. I would think that it would just bleed off E unnecessarily. You might avoid the attack, but you'd be very slow afterwards and probably a sitting duck for a 2nd attack. It most likely would be more affective to use angles (or plane of motion as mace put it) to keep as much of your E as you can and still forcing an overshoot
Yes, I am sure you are right but I think I will deploy the dive flaps on the 38L next time as soon as I think the saddle is coming. It will not help much but an extra couple of inches might be the thickness of a tatter. :)
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I think I understand what you're saying Fugi. I will have to do more practice in the MA again to see what kind of success I have. :salute
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Yes, I am sure you are right but I think I will deploy the dive flaps on the 38L next time as soon as I think the saddle is coming. It will not help much but an extra couple of inches might be the thickness of a tatter. :)
This works in a pony well. I've seen some films of guys who will drop a notch and then make there turn to saddle up. I don't do it with my 38 as much because I prefer to keep it on the fast side. With the 38 I use the flaps more in the vertical, climbing spirals and such.
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Trying to loosen my turn up a bit like Fugi said to save E and get a better snap shot attempt, and I must say... it is painful! I am not used to flying this way at all. I have seen how it can work but timing and E judgement and management are absolutely key! Where I like to make a hard turn into my opponent thereby making it a certainty he will overshoot, a looser turn is more setting up for a snapshot than forcing an overshoot. Or at least this is how I've seen it so far.
Need some advice to make it work though. When should I start my turn? When my opponent is 1K away? When should I start my climb and roll too? Is there a certain location I want to keep my opponents plane in when I'm making my first turn? (i.e. keep him in my 7-8 o'clock area?)
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Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.
I did make an attempt to get rounds on the 190 on one of the overshoots and try and put one of them out of the fight, but that just led to me losing sight of the P51 and almost dying. Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off as the 190 augered, and I got my 1v1... which later turned into another 2v1 :lol , but that turned out to be a repeat of the first 2v1.
A little off topic but, I tried to convince myself this for awhile and too many times I have died a horrible death.
The other night I had 2 ponies and la7 high 6 all coming in used BRD timing looked good on all 3 for an overshoot, came out of the slight black out and looked over my left wing to see 1 pony and the la. I could hear another pony checked my 6 couldn't see him. Was just about ready to pull the trigger on the pony and was thinking I might get a shot on the LA also and bam tower. BigR was the 2nd pony, I'm assuming he chopped throttle cross control got flaps out and was waiting for me. He knew exactly what I was going to do.
If I used any other defense to avoid a shot from all 3 it would have left me so E depleted they would have just took turns BnZing.
My point is over the years I've decided to try to work the fight into a 2v1 then turn in, 3 red guys is just too many for me to keep track of.
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Trying to loosen my turn up a bit like Fugi said to save E and get a better snap shot attempt, and I must say... it is painful! I am not used to flying this way at all. I have seen how it can work but timing and E judgement and management are absolutely key! Where I like to make a hard turn into my opponent thereby making it a certainty he will overshoot, a looser turn is more setting up for a snapshot than forcing an overshoot. Or at least this is how I've seen it so far.
Need some advice to make it work though. When should I start my turn? When my opponent is 1K away? When should I start my climb and roll too? Is there a certain location I want to keep my opponents plane in when I'm making my first turn? (i.e. keep him in my 7-8 o'clock area?)
For me I try to start my turn 1500 out, unless the guy really has some smash, then its a bit further out. It's not so much loosening up your turn as it is burning the E ONLY when you need to.
I'll try to explain it this way, as I first start the turn off my original line it's only about 5-10 degree off. As the con gets closer I increase the turn rate to 45 degrees off the original line. As he is coming into guns range I try to get my wing tip pointed at him. As he shoots I pull up and roll in the opposite direction of the turn. The higher the speed difference the tighter the barrel roll.... if you are going for a shot. If they have a lot of speed on me I don't waste the E going for a shot. I'll just roll out grabbing as I turn away. Once he turn toward me again I'll level off and give him my tail and set it up again.
If he keeps at it you should be able to get the E equalized by the third pass if he is being aggressive. In your film it would have taken a pass or two longer because neither was very aggressive. Once one of them thought the other guy would steal the kill they got more aggressive and one crashed, then the pony went back to being much less aggressive and extending to 2k+.
As you said, its all timing. Getting your self in the position to force that over shoot AND have the option to roll up over the top for a snap shot takes good timing.
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A little off topic but, I tried to convince myself this for awhile and too many times I have died a horrible death.
The other night I had 2 ponies and la7 high 6 all coming in used BRD timing looked good on all 3 for an overshoot, came out of the slight black out and looked over my left wing to see 1 pony and the la. I could hear another pony checked my 6 couldn't see him. Was just about ready to pull the trigger on the pony and was thinking I might get a shot on the LA also and bam tower. BigR was the 2nd pony, I'm assuming he chopped throttle cross control got flaps out and was waiting for me. He knew exactly what I was going to do.
If I used any other defense to avoid a shot from all 3 it would have left me so E depleted they would have just took turns BnZing.
My point is over the years I've decided to try to work the fight into a 2v1 then turn in, 3 red guys is just too many for me to keep track of.
When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work. He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.
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A 190 got me this afternoon from a perch. I had an eye on him and at 2.5 K i felt good I had the situation in hand. Scanned the instruments then thought of this thread and hesitated to make my move. Tower view. Man, those things can dive fast.
Great thread, but I need to take it to offline practice to get this :old: brain acclimated.
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When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work. He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.
1v1 you can focus on your opponent and adjust, even 2v1. 3v1 I can't.
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1v1 you can focus on your opponent and adjust, even 2v1. 3v1 I can't.
I understand. I was only trying to point out that the person who stayed with you is somebody that can stay with any of us, so if it was a person with lesser knowledge, you might've had all 3 overshoot. :)
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I just can't seem to get it just right. I'm almost certain I have horrible E judgement, so does anyone have any tips of how to judge someone's E? Or is it really one of those things that you just have to get good at over time? (like gunnery)
When they give you room to grab, grab at your best corner speed away from them.
Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.
Sorry if I'm giving you guys a headache with my stupid questions. My idiocy is greater than even I can imagine, and I am very incapable of learning anything quickly.
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I just can't seem to get it just right. I'm almost certain I have horrible E judgement, so does anyone have any tips of how to judge someone's E? Or is it really one of those things that you just have to get good at over time? (like gunnery)
Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.
Sorry if I'm giving you guys a headache with my stupid questions. My idiocy is greater than even I can imagine, and I am very incapable of learning anything quickly.
Precise E State is hard and takes lots of practice but it's pretty easy to get a general idea. The first way is simple, what kind of plane is it? Generally speaking for instance, we know that Pony's fight fast and Hurricanes fight slow but then there are airplanes that bleed lots of airspeed (Typhoon) when maneuvering and those that don't (P38, Spit, Zeke) also.
Then, there's just watching him. Where was he (above or below you) when you first spotted him? How fast does it look like he's going? What is the rate of closure (or opening)? There are other clues as well. When you pass close is his engine loud or quiet (is he at mil or idle)? Does he have any flaps down? (For most planes flaps down means <150mph). Does he extend often to rebuild E?
Then there are maneuvers. How high are his vertical moves? How quickly does he turn? (Remember that all planes turn best at corner which ranges from 200 to 260). Does he spend a lot of time nose down and extending? All of these will give you easy clues as to his speed. Also, vertical maneuvers tell you a whole lot about his E. For a good vertical maneuver 300mph is a good number. You can certainly do it slower but then you'll get very slow at the top. So, if the guy goes vertical and just does a loop with no drama or hang time at the top he's at least 300mph at the bottom but, if he kinda hangs at the top or does a rudder reversal expect him to be about 200 at the bottom. Of course, remember that these numbers will vary according to the type of plane you're fighting and I'm talking about actual loops, not vertical extensions (ropes) where everyone will get slow. Then there are the more obvious situations like where he just can't get his nose up enough to shoot you or is stuck in lag.
There's another method that's less well understood and that's conversion of NRG to angles. Say you're both in Pony's and you make a typical high speed nose-to-nose merge and you decide to stay at or above corner. On the second merge you see he's got 30 degrees of angles on you and on the third merge he's got 60. Those angles have to come from somewhere and that's him converting E to angles. He may have a bit of a bite on you but you're still flying at corner (about 260) while you know he's below (probably about 150-200) so now, on the next merge you negate his angles by switching to a vertical fight and covert your extra E into an altitude positional advantage.
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I watched the four films you posted, and briefly I will state that in a defensive situation your main goal is:
1) Close the angle so you force the enemy as close to you as possible while at the same time making him think he has a gun solution on you, but denying it by a few degrees. Usually I will maneuver so as he thinks he has the shot, but at the moment he pulls lead I will quickly roll out of his line of fire and start setting up for his passing below and behind me. He will often start going back up, which is where I usually land a shot.
This has a twofold effect, one it allows you a better opportunity in landing the overshoot kill because he's closer, and two it will most likely make him commit more aggressively if he thinks he's got a shot, thereby slowly bleeding both his positive and potential energy states.
In your films you show no regard towards "suckering him in" -- forcing a move on his part so you can turn the tables.
Kind of difficult for me to verbalize. Here's a recent film I put together of a bunch of different fights. Quality isn't great but it's just for my own amusement... the first section is against 3 K4s.
P.S. I noticed you tend to hold the trigger down for awhile. I only shoot in 3-6 round bursts with 30mm at max. If your first aimed shot doesn't hit, nothing more will.
http://youtu.be/frar8uSpB1M
this one might be instructive also (plus its also hilarious to hear JAXXO narrate the thing):
http://youtu.be/kWWrpW4n_To
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When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work. He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.
mir is correct. the experience of your foe is key. I usually die when I'm trying to get an experienced stick to commit, but because I'm oblivious to their skill level most of the time, I will maneuver in a less-than-aggressive fashion in order to "lure" them in -- a newbie will more likely commit if he sees me maneuvering in a lazy, haphazard way. I pay for this because the experienced stick will slow down and render my setup moot. Had I known who I was fighting, I could have closed the angles more and not given him as much space to saddle up -- possibly winning the fight but definitely prolonging it more than situation 1.
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Latrobe,
If I understood the problem, there is nothing that you can do except to improve your internet connection.
:salute
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Most of those methods I recognize Mace, and use in the MA. I guess I just suck at it and need to practice more. I think I pay more attention to the angles than the E.
Those videos were great to watch Nath! Definitely saw something I was doing wrong. I'm not the best at the "suckering them in" way. My flying style has always been to avoid the shot and then work my way onto their 6.
I hold the trigger down a while because I can never aim the 30mm on the K4. I feel better wasting a few rounds if I can get a hit since I can't "snipe" them with 2-3 rounds like you tater marksmen.
In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.
( :rofl at JAXXO, that was hilarious!)
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Latrobe,
If I understood the problem, there is nothing that you can do except to improve your internet connection.
:salute
Oh God! That won't be for another 20 years! :uhoh :(
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Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.
I forgot to answer why you fly away from red planes: In the real world this is called an extension/pitchback fight and is very common (or was very, very common in the F-14 community). Most modern RL fights are E fights so you tend to do one of two things, maximum performance turns (at corner velocity) linked by straight-line extensions for separation and E. You're basically alternating between two maximum performance parameters; best turns and best acceleration. Any time you're not doing one or the other (at least until you have the advantage) is wasting time and E. Airplanes accelerate best when they're not turning and are unloaded to zero G to minimize drag. That means a straight line with the nose being pushed down will give you more speed quicker than anything else at the expense of a bit of altitude. Once you reach your target speed (I usually look for corner up to 300mph) you pull the nose up and start an easy climb to regain the altitude you traded and begin to store that E then do a wingover (the pitchback) and return.
On the other hand, the effectiveness of an extension pitchback depends on how fast you already are, how quickly you can accelerate and what your adversary's plane, NRG state, and position are. The idea is to put as much distance between the two of you as you can while his nose is pointed away from you and then do your pitchback as his nose comes on. Think of it this way. The two of you pass 180 out. You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you. This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn. If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.
Another reason for the extension relates to multi-bandit fights. The worst situation for you is when multiple bandits are attacking you from different directions at the same time. A defense against one attack turns your six to another so, you want to do two things. First, isolate the threat sector. There are several ways to do this but one of the easiest is to extend away to position all of the bandits in the same piece of sky which minimizes the possible directions of attack. The other you have less control of but you want to get them attacking you in phase, that means two airplanes attacking from the same direction in the same plane of motion. This makes a defense against one a defense against both. Obviously, you cannot force your adversaries to do this but you can encourage it by being intentionally "predictable".
Here's a grossly oversimplified example. You're in a fight against two adversaries with more E than you have so you turn to pass between them and extend away from them building E while both noses are off you. They see you're extending and think you're trying to escape so they pull hard to come nose on but they're now coming from the same direction, your rear quarter, so you've isolated the threat sector. You now start an easy left turn and they do the same because they both think they're going to get shots on you. This puts them in phase (both are in your rear quarter in an easy left turn and getting closer and closer together as they run you down) and they're probably overconfident (hey, it's 2v1 and they're on your six, what could go wrong?) They're essentially now in a race to see who gets to you first for the kill but at the last moment you use the E you've built to break into them and do a BRD. Since they're in phase they are both presented with the same defense, both overshoot and your BRD is used to convert a 2v1 into a 1v1. Of course, I have to caveat this example. It's not a magic tactic that'll always work because there are just too many variables. How much E difference is there, how maneuverable are they, how far and fast did you get in your extension? The point is that you need to isolate the threat and get them in phase to make your defense much easier. BTW, if they're in phase and together, at attack by you on one of them can easily become an attack on both. I like to appear to be committed to attacking one and then, at the last second, switch to the second who doesn't feel threatened and may be repositioning to attack you if you continue to press your attack on his wingman. It'll quite often catch them by surprise.
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In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.
( :rofl at JAXXO, that was hilarious!)
Yeah, good point. Perhaps I'm not closing the angle as much as I say, but then again it's dependent on the situation. The last part of that clip in the 109F4 against Squat's F4U, he's between 8 and 9 o'clock, and I sort of "jink" out of his guns and setup for the overshoot. But he's at least 100mph faster than me at that point. Had he been coming in slower, I would have probably put him closer to your 9-10 o'clock, in order to 1) increase the difficulty of his shot 2) decrease the likelihood of him saddling up on my six and 3) giving me more of an acute angle to reverse on him with.
I'd be down to experiment in the DA/TA with this kinda stuff. I appreciate your aggressive attitude -- I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.
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In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.
How much angle off you have also plays into how aggressive you want to be just like timing and maneuvering "just in time." In the case of angle off, the less you have the riskier it is because you've got less line of sight rates and aren't creating as much of a geometry problem. At the same time though, it's much easier to do a very tight defense and end up nose on on the attacker's six. The most aggressive style means accepting more risk and relying on "just enough" to get the job done.
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The two of you pass 180 out. You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you. This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn. If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.
This is something I had not thought of before. So simple yet so effective to keep the E advantage!
Yeah, good point. Perhaps I'm not closing the angle as much as I say, but then again it's dependent on the situation. The last part of that clip in the 109F4 against Squat's F4U, he's between 8 and 9 o'clock, and I sort of "jink" out of his guns and setup for the overshoot. But he's at least 100mph faster than me at that point. Had he been coming in slower, I would have probably put him closer to your 9-10 o'clock, in order to 1) increase the difficulty of his shot 2) decrease the likelihood of him saddling up on my six and 3) giving me more of an acute angle to reverse on him with.
I'd be down to experiment in the DA/TA with this kinda stuff. I appreciate your aggressive attitude -- I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.
This gets me thinking. If my opponent is a P51 coming in for a diving pass at 400+mph and I am cruising at 250, then putting him in my 7-8 o'clock area would be best since he will be going way too fast to saddle up on my 6 and I can get a good shot on the overshoot because of the smaller angle I created (the "just enough to avoid" method).
But, if my opponent is in a slower bird (lets say an A6M) then trying the same thing of putting him in my 7-8 o'clock area is a horrible idea. With his slower speed approach he can bleed E off easier and quicker to get onto my 6. So what I would want to do is put him in my 9-10 o'clock area, making a more difficult shot for him, and just focus on avoiding the attack instead of trying to set up my own.
Is this right? Am I inside the ballpark?
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Edit
So, I think I pulled off the BRD a bit more affectingly. In this fight against a Spit on the first pass my angle was too great to get a shot on him, but I was also avoiding an La at the time as well. The 2nd pass I think he knew he was going to fly into my guns and reversed his turn using his speed to climb away from me. The 3rd pass I think I pulled off almost perfect. I saw he pulled a full loop over the top, and from what I learned from Mace I knew the spit was at least above his stall speed. I attempt to create a smaller angle and get a perfect shot in the overshoot, but my terrible gunnery skills allow him to survive. The 4th pass is just about a repeat of the previous one and once again my gunnery skills is the only thing that lets him live. The final pass I see he doesn't climb as high as he has been so I create a much great angle this time so he doesn't get inside my turn and saddle up on my 6. I think I would have gotten a good shot on him again but a friendly finish him before I get the chance to miss a 3rd time :)
http://www.mediafire.com/?7kc7ewdpqr5x8af
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Barrel Roll Defense
downloading films, but seems Mace has helped ya find something, and Fugitive as well.... gotta love this community ... it :rock s
TC
It's something he's touched on a couple time before in other threads and posts. TC (you) or Rolex gave me my first dose of understanding it during I think a BFM clinic a couple years ago. It seems (very) counterintuitive, and I don't want to over-stupify it, but a "wider" (as wide as possible) and "not-fast-rolling but not too-slow-rolling either" BR is vastly more effective in a given defensive situation than simpley heaving the stick over and trying to complete a BR as quickly/sharply/narrowly as possible (what you're tendancy is to do with most other defensive maneuvers).
I use the BRD (and offensively) constantly in the 190s, and have even used it with success in keeping my last RTBing heavy buff from becoming rocket food after loosing the first two.
Wow, there's a lot to catch up on in this thread now.
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A 190 got me this afternoon from a perch. I had an eye on him and at 2.5 K i felt good I had the situation in hand. Scanned the instruments then thought of this thread and hesitated to make my move. Tower view. Man, those things can dive fast.
Great thread, but I need to take it to offline practice to get this :old: brain acclimated.
:devil :rock :banana: :cheers:
Especialy if he's circling and obviously "on perch", don't take your eye off them for more than a second.
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I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.
I think Nath sums up everything great about this thread in one sentence. I can't believe how much great info is coming out in this threat, without any BS arguments like always seem to happen here. This should be thread of the year, and stand as an example of how asking for help without any attitude, even from a super pilot like Latrobe, can benefit not just the OP but everyone in the game.
I'd really REALLY appreciate it if one of the trainers or somebody like Mace or Nath would volunteer for a night in the DA for a few hours to put a lot of this into practice while talking it through on VOX, as there is no better way for adult learning to take hold than to actually do it, and repeat it many times under the eye of an expert instructor. I know I've always flown really aggressively, even without a lot of official training, and I've done it that way since 1999, but as I said, I WANT to be able to do it the proper way, and not just really on the aggression alone getting me through, but to channel it into a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry. Mace, I said it before, but you truly should write a book about this stuff for modern online air combat. It may not be a huge seller, but I personally would be willing to financially back a start up for this. Your expertise is very rare, and since Eagl doesn't play the game as you do any more, I think you're the only real fighter pilot in this game, and the way you can professionally describe a2a scenarios, your experience, etc is a resource that can't be quantified.
Anyhow, as I was saying, I really want to be able to fly like the "greats" of the game, and be able to do a lot of these things to the point that they are second nature, without having to think about it, and that means a lot of reps. I haven't flown FSO for a while, but last year I made top pilots list every time I did, and even top pilot in one event so far as kills go. I know I'm good in a gamey sort of way, and that's just from experience and seizing opportunities and flying aggressively, but if I end up 1v1 vs a Nath, a Bruv, or an Ink, I'm going to lose, and lose badly, like as in maybe 1/10 or 2/10 at best. I ran into one of the games best pilots in a P51 in the last scenario, and I ended up in a scissors in a K4 vs him that went back and forth for about a minute, and I lost. This to me is unacceptable, as I can admit that stats vs the MA or FSO mean nothing in terms of knowledge and capability to apply it properly in a2a engagements. My goal is to be able to contend with the likes of them.
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I WANT to be able to do it the proper way, and not just really on the aggression alone getting me through, but to channel it into a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry.
This is exactly what I'm looking for now too. I enjoy flying really aggressive and just overpowering my opponent with tight turns, tail slides, and snap shots forcing him to make a mistake so I can get on his 6. But now I want to learn the smoother way of fighting, or as you put it "a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry". Just like when I first started learning how to dogfight, I took the TnB route and loved the turn fights. Then I decided I needed to learn how to fly the BnZ style. It's not my favorite way of flying, but learning how to fight this way gave me more weapons to use in a fight. Plus, I can better counter this kind of fighting as well. Now I'm at that point again where I know how to fight aggressively, but I want to learn how to fight smoothly as well. After I've learned how to and master it I'll have even MORE weapons at my disposal during a fight, and I can counter smooth flying players even better.
The advice from this thread is amazing. I feel like my flying is improving again, which I haven't seen happen in a long time. Thanks for the awesome help everyone! :aok :salute
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Appreciate the comments Gman and Latrobe, I'm happy if the discussions, even some of the ones that get a bit heated, help people out. I usually don't mind the heated arguments but it is sometimes a bit frustrating when someone has some misconception and then continually argues for their point of view regardless of how much information is provided to prove them wrong. What's the guy's name who took a few anecdotal remarks and convinced himself that HiTech did his "maths" for his flight models all wrong? The guy was hilarious, had no concept of physics or aerodynamics, and was fortunently a bit of an outlier as the majority here want to really learn and improve.
To give real credit where credit is due we all need to compliment HiTech on the flight model as it's the most representative simulation I've ever seen and without it, few of these discussions are worthwhile. It's really the part of AH that makes the sim so intriguing and is by far the most important aspect (well, to me anyway). What's the use of explaining an NRG fight to someone when they're flying a flight model that doesn't include induced drag or accelerated stalls and departures? Also, I'm continually amazed at the amount of information and skills that the community has developed over time and the quality of the discussions (ok, most of the discussions). Think about the people on line here that have never been in the air before unless the plane had DELTA on its side but can realistically discuss corner velocity, Ps lines, and lift vectors and, more impressively, relate them to how to use that information in an air battle. That stuff is second nature to someone that's actually done it but to realize you've just had an extended discussion of the Meredeth Effect as it relates to the P-51 cooling system with a 15 year-old kid or a 65-year-old retired Pharmacist is pretty darn cool.
Anyway, I don't fly (or contribute in the forums) nearly as much as I used to due to work and travel and also relinquished my trainer slot for someone with more time to dedicate to the community but I've always had the idea that one day I'd compile some notes and make them available to the community on line. I'm not really interested in publishing and I'd be happy to do it for free, I just need the time. Even more importantly, I need to develop the computer skills to illustrate what I'm talking about. You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words, unfortunently my pictures take about a thousand years to produce. On the other hand, I've been particularly impressed with some of the products others have come up with that are tremendously useful such as Badboy's EM diagrams (which are priceless <S>) and rolling scissors animation. Also, training videos like those done by Vudu and Batfink are great tools as are the many articles posted by the trainers on the AHT site. Sadly, my illustrative skills are more suited to using airplanes on sticks to show a maneuver than actually producing useful diagrams and films that can be posted online but I'm working on it. As for time in the TA I'd be happy to do it but my schedule makes it difficult to commit to a specific date or time but I'll look into it. If I'm online feel free to PM me and we can try to do something but many of the AHTC can give very good advanced instruction and are probably more "scheduable."
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but if I end up 1v1 vs a Nath, a Bruv, or an Ink, I'm going to lose, and lose badly, like as in maybe 1/10 or 2/10 at best.
Maybe. My 1v1 skills are a bit rusty, I used to be more into dueling back in the day when I had more of a competitive "edge". I've always preferred the spontaneity and improvisation of furballin.
I would be interested in a TA/DA session to experiment with this stuff.
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Sadly, my illustrative skills are more suited to using airplanes on sticks to show a maneuver than actually producing useful diagrams and films that can be posted online but I'm working on it.
Then perhaps instead of illustrations, videos doing a walk through using the airplanes on sticks accompanied by the text?
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Latrobe,
Another thing to work on, if you're not already cognizant of it, is which type of pursuit to use and when to use it: lag, pure, or lead.
You may already know these and do them with or without thinking about it, but if not, it can open a lot of new doors for you.
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I wonder if you should change planes for awhile? Something with less performance so you push yourself. I remember reading how successful the Russians were with the P39. If you can consistently win with the P39, my man, you are some kind of good.
I completely forgot about the P39! Very fun plane! The thick framing makes SA a real challenge too.
Latrobe,
Another thing to work on, if you're not already cognizant of it, is which type of pursuit to use and when to use it: lag, pure, or lead.
You may already know these and do them with or without thinking about it, but if not, it can open a lot of new doors for you.
That was one of the first things I learned when I started. It's become one of those things that I do without even thinking. I may choose the wrong pursuit from time to time (though I wouldn't know since I'm doing it without thinking), so maybe that's something I should go back and refresh my memory on. :aok
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I've always had the idea that one day I'd compile some notes and make them available to the community on line. I'm not really interested in publishing and I'd be happy to do it for free, I just need the time.
You should publish it... there are very few books out now that attempt to combine an accurate flight model within a gaming background. The ones that are available now are close to worthless to anyone with some experience, and some even reinforce poor decisions.
This has been a great thread, one that I have taken advantage of for both training and personal use. :salute
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edit double post (the forums are incredibly slow today)
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That was one of the first things I learned when I started. It's become one of those things that I do without even thinking. I may choose the wrong pursuit from time to time (though I wouldn't know since I'm doing it without thinking), so maybe that's something I should go back and refresh my memory on. :aok
Awesome. :) When I get shot down, I usually know if it was from pulling lead when I should've lagged. It's usually against torque-y birds like those pesky 109's you maneuver so well. :D
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On the other hand, the effectiveness of an extension pitchback depends on how fast you already are, how quickly you can accelerate and what your adversary's plane, NRG state, and position are. The idea is to put as much distance between the two of you as you can while his nose is pointed away from you and then do your pitchback as his nose comes on. Think of it this way. The two of you pass 180 out. You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you. This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn. If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.
Going back to this, at what point do I want to turn back into him? Am I looking for a certain distance to form between us, or am I looking for his plane to get to a certain position? I was trying this in the MA earlier with almost no success.
Are we still talking about using this tactic to defeat a diving attack? Or are we talking about using it in a merge? Are there certain plane match ups where this tactic just will not work? If I'm flying a straight line waiting for my opponent to make his turn, then isn't he flying a straight line while I'm making my turn into him? Doesn't this kind of negate the E advantage I built up by not turning?
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He's referring to using it in a merge scenario, as he was replying to something you asked about why you would want to extend farther from a con.
That extension pitch back maneuver is used more in jet missile fights going 800mph where distances are greater and maneuvers are done over great distances. I feel like gunfighting is a little more straight forward.
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He's referring to using it in a merge scenario, as he was replying to something you asked about why you would want to extend farther from a con.
That extension pitch back maneuver is used more in jet missile fights going 800mph where distances are greater and maneuvers are done over great distances. I feel like gunfighting is a little more straight forward.
Few tactics are limited to one specific scenario and the extension/pitchback has many uses. It's certainly possible to use it in a merge situation but it isn't limited to that. It does get a bad name from those that like to blow through and "extend" to 4 or 5k and then come back and blow through again five minutes later but that's not the extension/pitchback I'm talking about. Like I also said, a lot depends on the situation and what match up of aircraft you have. For instance, if you're in a slow, tight turner in a 1v1 you might want to be like the boxer that ties the other guy up and keeps him close so you can keep jabbing him. But, if you're the one with long reach (a fast, not quite as maneuverable fighter) or you're outnumbered, you might want to stay out from the middle of the fight, keep the bad men where you can easily see them so someone isn't punching you in the kidneys when you're not looking. Maybe then you would more likely work an extension/pitchback fight.
Also, no, the extension/pitchback fight isn't restricted to fighters with missiles or 800mph for that matter. Speed and range are relative things. It doesn't matter if one of you is at 150 and the other at 300 or if one is at 450 and the other is at 600 or if the fight is tighter than 1k or greater than 4k, it's all relative. The other situation, which really brought this up, is how to deal with two (or more) NME fighters on one. Many people will just stay there smack in the middle burning E trying to defend and take whatever shot they can only to die just when they think they've got a kill shot. However, you have a greater probability of surviving (and winning) when, instead of staying right in the middle of the fight you extend when you can to isolate the threat sector and get them in phase while maintaining or even building E. This is true even when you're the slow turn fighter against a couple of faster late war rides. You might not normally think about extensions in the slow angles fighter and sure, it can be difficult to gain any significant separation but it's not impossible and, if you can just reduce the threat sector from 360 degrees down to 180 degrees it's that much easier to keep track of the bad men and reduce the probability that you're going to be surprised.
Here's a nice little fight that starts out as a 2v4 then becomes a 1v2. It's the 1v2 that's interesting and I think it answers the questions on extensions from both Latrobe and Nath. I picked it because it's a classic NRG fighter(s) vs Angles fighter and there are a couple of examples of the extension/pitchback and how you can use it to isolate the threat and build a little E. It's also a great example where you can really look at the numbers to see what's really happening in the fight. I'll tell you up front that neither the 109 or 47 were overly aggressive and they stuck with the NRG gameplan throughout but to win that fight you have to keep the pressure on and bleed the other guy down so you can then convert your stored NRG into angles for the kill. It's possible that they just didn't feel all that aggressive that day but it's more probable that they were waiting for me to get slow before going for the kill.
BTW, just a personal recommendation but I like to view films first from the Fixed, Pan, Trails on settings in film viewer. It gives you the best overall picture of the relative positions and maneuvers. I also mention my speed on the deck in several places because it's a good snapshot of how I'm doing with my E. By looking at an aircraft's speed while it's flat on the deck there is no potential NRG (altitude) to consider, it's all kinetic (speed) so I don't have to do any messy math to compute NRG altitude in public.
httData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????žú| žú| 276626078MltCpy2.10 FILL FILLed Sector; ST500DM002-9YN14 (CC4H) S1D5GMZY Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????3mph. 200 to 220 is also my minimum target speed in a Brewster. It's a bit above corner giving me a buffer so I'll always have my best break turn available and the Brew also has a fairly decent vertical move at that speed so with 210 I'm feeling pretty comfortable. Of course some more E couldn't hurt.
Notice that I also have the NME in the same piece of sky for the next pass but there's some separation between them (a lead/trail formation) which complicates things a little. If I attack the lead then I'm turning in front of the trailer so that's out. If I pull up into the trailer the lead might have time to get his nose back at me. I choose to prosecute the trailer and, if the 109 comes around I'll switch over the top to the 109 but here's where the 109 helps out and extends rather than turn. I think that the Jug was thinking he'd stay high and when I turned after the 109 he'd roll in but I let the 109 pass me by and went after him instead. The 109's extension takes him out of the fight for about 17 seconds giving me plenty of time to attack the Jug. Unfortunately, my gunnery sucked :-).
As I defend against the 109 attack at 1:49 notice that on the deck I've now built to 235mph so I've added 58mph and have plenty of E to do an easy BRD against the 109 but I see the Jug is now headed back my way so rather than follow the 109 I drop back down to neutralize the 47 by taking him 180 degrees out. At the next merge they alternate for a few attacks but I've got plenty of E to evade afterwhich I quickly store some more E at time 2:40 as both of their noses are off but I make a potentially fatal mistake. Rather than turn my tail to the bandits and extend and climb away from them I half axx it and point too close to the Jug getting myself bracketed with one attacking from each side at 2:50 but at 2:57 after a break turn at the pass with the Jug I now have them both in the same piece of sky at the same range and in phase. This let's one defensive maneuver (a slice) defeat both attacks and the merge ends with both of them headed one way and me the other with good speed to gain separation.
Now look at the relative positions at time 3:09. This is precisely the picture you want to work for in this type of fight. Both NME still have 90 degrees to go before they can get their noses back on me and I've gone from 0 to 2k separation and from on the deck to almost 2k and this is in a slowpoke little Brewster. At 3:13 their noses are coming back on me so that will be the most separation that I'll be able to build so time for the pitchback. Actually, it's another slice since I'm climbing away at only 188mph but it's the same concept. Extend and then do your best turn to point back.
At this time, notice my speed on the deck at 3+26. 254mph. I've added 77mph over a three and a half minute fight against two adversaries. At the same time look at the NME's airspeeds on the deck. The 109 is 278mph and the Jug is 262mph. Anyone remember their airspeeds when they first attacked and I ended up down at 177mph? The 109 was 275mph and the Jug was 295mph . So, the 109 has stayed fairly NRG neutral throughout the fight while the Jug has lost about 33mph. Basically, they've stayed pretty consistent because neither of them were willing to really commit to a knife fight which would have required them to slow down but during that same period of time I've been gaining E by a few short extensions away from an isolated threat.
At time 3:37 what happens? They give me almost the exact same picture they did before with the 109 passing first and extending while the Jug turns. This time my gunnery is much better and the Jug goes down and then shortly after the 109 finds his way back to the fight. He dives in, I do a BRD with a rudder roll at the top to roll me out level and then just wait while he pulls up right into my guns and then I follow him up. Notice also that we're pretty much co-E. In the end, the whole point to the NRG fight is to bleed the other guy down and then convert your stored NRG into angles for the kill. If you can't bleed the guy down then it probably isn't going to work.
Last, I mentioned that this was a good example of NRG fighters versus an angles fighter but what really happened? I didn't fight an angles fight, I fought an NRG fight from beginning to end. Even though I was in what everyone would consider to be an angles fighter I didn't get slow and countered their NRG fight with some short extensions and isolation while keeping track of the second bandit and being aggressive in neutralizing one fighter (or letting him neutralize himself in the 109's case) so I could attack the other.
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Fantastic film Mace! I will be watching that a few dozen times. The way you handled those two and isolated the threat sector blew my mind! Words can explain so much, but video explains even more. :salute :cheers:
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Wow. Does anyone else feel like they're in graduate school for air combat? Man alive, I cannot believe how much I'm learning by reading and watching these films. Thanks again Mace, I know you've said you're kept really busy re life and work, I really appreciate the time you put into these long and informative posts.
I've put this into practice in recent nights, the other night we had a practice for the upcoming scenario, and I was flying against some of the best pilots in one of the best squadrons (JG11 and Big Rat's guys). I flew an hour in the F4 109 vs Spit 5's, and found that isolating multiple threats into 180 degrees, and sometimes even getting them into 90 or 45 degrees of sky allowed me to use the F4's speed and climb advantage to get into pitch overs, and be extremely aggressive against opponents in better turning planes who are excellent pilots and shots.
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Straight lines are turning out to be just as fun as turny lines! :D
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/ropeKI_zps1df86e06.png)
In our merge I was at 290, I could roughly guess that the Ki84 was slightly slower than me which I was correct as he was at 250. I fly the more straight line while he turns and as I see his nose coming around I adjust my flight path to be coming over the top of his. This forces him to pull yet another turn while I'm flying straight again. I come down over the top at 57mph and get him as he stalls at 50mph. Am I doing this right?
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If anyone is scratching their head over acronyms... NRG = energy, E = energy, NME = enemy, BRD = barrel roll defense.
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Best topic i have seen in years. Lot of information(angles and energy and how/why to use) and comments. I even noticed Latrobe figured in practice...
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Straight lines are turning out to be just as fun as turny lines! :D
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/ropeKI_zps1df86e06.png)
In our merge I was at 290, I could roughly guess that the Ki84 was slightly slower than me which I was correct as he was at 250. I fly the more straight line while he turns and as I see his nose coming around I adjust my flight path to be coming over the top of his. This forces him to pull yet another turn while I'm flying straight again. I come down over the top at 57mph and get him as he stalls at 50mph. Am I doing this right?
Conceptually very similar to the extension pitchback and some of the principles apply but it's not the same. This would be a vertical extension and works because, like a regular extension, it gives you separation. Some of the other extension/pitchback principles apply in that at the merge you effectively turn just about 45 degress nose up while the Ki does more like 120 degrees, all probably under pretty high G. I think your second vertical turn to position yourself directly above his flight path is a nice touch. He started with a bit less E, burned more E in his high G vertical turn and now you force him to turn again and keep his nose up which bleeds him dry.
A vertical extension is a nice technique to learn but it's complicated a bit by combat trim. CT only knows your speed and uses a look up table to set your trim but it's based on wings level flight. It doesn't know when you're going vertical and don't really need (or want) the nose up trim but the added trim tends to bring your plane more nose up or even over on its back because of the increasing nose up trim as you decelerate. The best way to do the vertical extension is to set your desired climb angle and then bunt a bit (use some forward stick) to maintain the angle (or turn CT off and manually trim) instead of letting CT turn your vertical climb into an arc. An arc means your vertical zoom is less effective because trim is turning you and that's creating induced drag. Also, just simple geometry shows you that it'll cost you some altitude because you're going the long way around.. You won't get as high and, in some cases, if he's close you'll give your adversary the opportunity to point across the circle at you and lead turn you on the way down. Another mistake I've seen is someone who thinks they're in something like a 60 degree climb and then finds out that CT has brought him closer to a pure vertical climb that he didn't intend (or maybe wasn't prepared for). The effects of these details are small and don't appear to have affected your fight but they can be an issue at times.
So, question for you. What were your indicators that he had less E than you? Had he been climbing? just finished a fight? just have less altitude? or something else?
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We had been fighting for a short while before that, this was a re-merge as I attempt to perform an extension pitchback (after re-watching the film I noticed this). During the fight before I had the altitude advantage the whole time while he was making turns below me the entire time. This probably subconsciously put the thought in my mind "he has to have less E than me", but the way I determined he had less E was the way I've always done it before. On the merge I watch the icon and how fast it drops from 1K to 0 and at the same time I watch my opponents aircraft and the ground below him. I watch how fast he can get from point A to point B (this clump of trees to that barn), and this gives me a rough estimate of how fast he is going. Of course this only works for me when we're engaged close to the deck.
I probably should post the film as well. Then you experts can tell me how well I perform the extension pitchback (9:40 mark of the film)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ntyc912ya9a09pw
The fight with the Ki84 starts at the 8:30 mark.
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1 more film because why not? Film makes for great learning material!
Has some BRD against a higher P51 about 4 minutes in and then a long fight against a P47 at 7:30 mark.
The 10:10 mark is where before I would have turned hard back into the fight, but then I remembered the advice in this thread and do an extension pitchback to the best of my abilities. Had I turned instead like I used to I think I would have died.
http://www.mediafire.com/?7h3oibu96j0w5u8
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or something else?
Heh, instructor hat on with hat one, am I right Mace? I'll bite, to me it's obvious that the other things you mentioned aren't the "real" answer to that question, and I really want to know what it is. I'm usually near the deck in my fights too, and I typically go with exactly what Latrobe described, using landmarks and the distance between them to judge the NME E state. That only works for me however if he's flying in the horizontal, giving me the opportunity to observe his velocity/time between two fixed landmark points.
How do you do it if he's vertical somewhat? I know there is the obvious answer of his nose being up = burning E, and nose low = gaining E, but I sense you have an answer to that posed question that is a little more complex and accurate, n'est pas? I know you can observe the con distance icon, and the - or + is an indicator of the NME E relative to my E, but that still doesn't answer to what his E precisely is, to me it's still just a relative value to my aircraft. Is it just something that comes with experience once you start considering this stuff? I know I can look at my airspeed/altitude/situation and try and form some kind of solution based on the 2 ways I use that I mention, landmark and con +/-, but I still feel like I'm missing something.
This is something I really struggle with, judging E state, and to me, all this great information regarding ACM can only be put into practice once you CAN judge the NME E state, otherwise you're just skating uphill IMO. It feels a little (a lot) like I'm trying to run before I can walk I guess with this specifically.
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I certainly don't want to be presumptuous. I drag them out into a chase, ensure they don't get over top of me then turn into them at 1.5k. That gives me plenty of time to get my nose around, burn little altitude in doing this. They will either press hard, which allows me to possibly shift to the offense. Sometimes they will see what is going to happen and straighten out of pull up. The moment I see them do this I immediately straighten out myself.
A bit of a dance but it minimizes my E and alt loss, all the while they are losing both. At some point they have to commit to the attack at which point the knife fight starts.
Maybe not the best but seems to work.
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Heh, instructor hat on with hat one, am I right Mace? I'll bite, to me it's obvious that the other things you mentioned aren't the "real" answer to that question, and I really want to know what it is. I'm usually near the deck in my fights too, and I typically go with exactly what Latrobe described, using landmarks and the distance between them to judge the NME E state. That only works for me however if he's flying in the horizontal, giving me the opportunity to observe his velocity/time between two fixed landmark points.
How do you do it if he's vertical somewhat? I know there is the obvious answer of his nose being up = burning E, and nose low = gaining E, but I sense you have an answer to that posed question that is a little more complex and accurate, n'est pas? I know you can observe the con distance icon, and the - or + is an indicator of the NME E relative to my E, but that still doesn't answer to what his E precisely is, to me it's still just a relative value to my aircraft. Is it just something that comes with experience once you start considering this stuff? I know I can look at my airspeed/altitude/situation and try and form some kind of solution based on the 2 ways I use that I mention, landmark and con +/-, but I still feel like I'm missing something.
This is something I really struggle with, judging E state, and to me, all this great information regarding ACM can only be put into practice once you CAN judge the NME E state, otherwise you're just skating uphill IMO. It feels a little (a lot) like I'm trying to run before I can walk I guess with this specifically.
LOL. In all honesty my question was perfectly legit. Latrobe had previously asked about estimating E and I was just curious as to how he did it in this case. Determining E is one of the hardest things you can do as there are few good signs. We were well aware of the E measurement conundrum in the F14 community because an F14 constantly communicates it's speed. The wingsweep is automatic so someone else could just look at the wings and know roughly how fast you are, it was like flying a big airspeed indicator around while we were left to our best estimates of what he was doing. Sometimes though we used it to our advantage. At the first merge the adversary wanted to know if we're going for NRG or angles and then adjust their fight accordingly. The Tomcat has it's wings out he's ready to turn but they see an F14 come screaming in with it's wings pinned back and he'd go damn, that guy's got some smack and he's going to go straight vertical! So the adversary would plug in burner and get as much speed as he could and then go straight up after the Tomcat. Rather, he'd go straight up to where the Tomcat was supposed to have been. When he doesn't see the Tomcat in front he looks behind just as he get's the Fox-2, Guns! calls from the Tomcat with right behind him with his wings full out . Lots of guys forgot that the Tomcat's wingsweep also had a manual mode and so we could just swing those pretty wings back and let them think we're at Mach .9 when we're really closer to 400kts. When the adversary went vertical you just popped the wings out, pulled up and let him fly out in front of you and shoot him.
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Just want to say thank you once again for all the amazing help! Over the past few days I've definitely seen an improvement in my ability to survive against the odds. Just yesterday I was landing 3,4, even 5 kills back to back! This is a big improvement over my usual 2-3 kills and die. Now all that's left is to practice what I've learned to the point where I can masterfully out fight any plane without having to think about it.
:salute Everyone in this thread!
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Just want to say thank you once again for all the amazing help! Over the past few days I've definitely seen an improvement in my ability to survive against the odds. Just yesterday I was landing 3,4, even 5 kills back to back! This is a big improvement over my usual 2-3 kills and die.
Good luck, enjoy!
Now all that's left is to practice what I've learned to the point where I can masterfully out fight any plane without having to think about it.
:salute Everyone in this thread!
We'll see ya at the next La7/Brew/Spit16 whine thread then. :devil :bolt:
:salute
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Just want to say thank you once again for all the amazing help! Over the past few days I've definitely seen an improvement in my ability to survive against the odds. Just yesterday I was landing 3,4, even 5 kills back to back! This is a big improvement over my usual 2-3 kills and die. Now all that's left is to practice what I've learned to the point where I can masterfully out fight any plane without having to think about it.
:salute Everyone in this thread!
I'm very glad the discussions have helped, best of luck! :cheers: