Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on April 08, 2001, 07:38:00 PM
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Recently, the AKs in general and Nimitz in particular took a little heat from Whels1 and Brady5 of the knights because we refused to hide enemy CVs (off map.) I defended Nimitz's action citing "gaming the game."
I understand this is a gray area. We have 400 mph panzers, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I believe Pyro & HiTech left the tank slides in the game because they believe it added fun.
So, is "hiding the CV" in the same category as "200 mph panzers?"
I understand there will always be players who take advantage of the tank slides (me for one!) I understand there will always be players who take unfair advantage of field ack.
However, hiding the CV seems to be in the same category as off map HQ raids. It spoils the fun for many participants.
AKcurly
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I agree to the opposition to "gaming the game".
Allthough I won't go as far as calling "hide the CV" cheating, like some do, it definately detriments my gaming experience from time to time.
On the other hand, off-the-map bombing, I will call cheating.
This is what the meriam-webster ( http://www.m-w.com/home.htm (http://www.m-w.com/home.htm) ) says about cheating:
Pronunciation: 'chEt
Date: 1590
transitive senses
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
Off-the-map bombing utilizes a weakness in the game to avoid the opposition. I will not condone it. If a friendly off-the-map raid levels an enemy HQ, I do not offer them a wtg.
I was online today when Nim took control of the CV (54) and started moving it. I also think I voiced my approval. If not, let me do so now.
Regards
2nd Lt. Darling
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
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Just one question ( I really don't know the answer) do Biscuits and rooks hide cv's??
I have no opinion either way , did they move ships to a safe place in real life ??
this post is not meant to be a personal attack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I dont really see the problem with "hiding the CV" it seems there are so many other things that offset the realism much more than putting yer boats off the clip board...<cough> radar <snort>
its a game...have fun you tards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Radar officer:
Grneral yakamoto..the enemy has moved their fleet off our radar!!!!
General yakamoto on open channel:
DWEEBS!!
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So some think we should keep it on the map? I got two words for ya's 'Maginot Line' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Tactics must change if suprise is to be obtained, for surprise does not merely mean hitting the enemy at some unexpected point, but hitting him in an unexpected way.
Major General J.F.C. Fuller 1936
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BigJoe
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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For one thing the reason of hiding the CV is denying the enemy a airfield. We lose the CV and they gain the port it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out they get the cv back. We had incursions from rooks coming over taking the CV and moving it towards rook territory. Nimitz and brady and whels all were arguing about it, I do't think he understands what the knights have gone thru the last month.
Gaming the game? Not in the last bit, denying the enemy a strategic runway yes. Voicing your opinion here will not settle it. Curly/Nimitz I think you should have come and talked to me first instead of coming to the soap opera BBS. As it is the CV will stay off map. End of discussion.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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Come on guys, we all know exactly what we're talking about here.
TG54 has been in enemy hands for days now even though we recaptured the port long ago. Why? Because it's sitting even farther away then the Knit HQ.
IMO thats a dweeb thing to do, and it'll stay there until a reset probably.
If all countries did that, then we quickly would have no CVs.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) at least use it.
(rooks will move zig for great justice unless you do)
translation: big mission in planner just to get the damned thing back
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Originally posted by AKcurly:
Recently, the AKs in general and Nimitz in particular took a little heat from Whels1 and Brady5 of the knights because we refused to hide enemy CVs (off map.) I defended Nimitz's action citing "gaming the game."
I understand this is a gray area. We have 400 mph panzers, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I believe Pyro & HiTech left the tank slides in the game because they believe it added fun.
So, is "hiding the CV" in the same category as "200 mph panzers?"
I understand there will always be players who take advantage of the tank slides (me for one!) I understand there will always be players who take unfair advantage of field ack.
However, hiding the CV seems to be in the same category as off map HQ raids. It spoils the fun for many participants.
AKcurly
get ur story straight Curly, i gave u and nimitz heat for sailing it to enemy base and leaving it to be found, (which they did). u betrayed your country but handing the enemy thier CV back. when i left last night i had it in a corner on map.where and who took it off map after i left who knows and dont car. but when u sail it up to th eenemy and say here it is, take it, ur a traitor and PNG
to me.
whels
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Curly/Nimitz I think you should have come and talked to me first instead of coming to the soap opera BBS. As it is the CV will stay off map. End of discussion.
Gotta love flying for the knights.
Everybody has an opinion and they are entitled to it. I feel that ANYTHING off map is "out of bounds" and should not be allowed to take place. There is enough water on the map to hide a CV.
In my opinion anything tht leaves the map should automatically be LOST to the country.
As for spawn points on hills. These are on the ,map and are fair game.
Now I know why the knights hated the "other" map. It DID NOT allow them to hide the CV (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sturm, do you speak for all knights?
End of discussion?
Then why are a lot of knights telling rooks where the CV is located?
Maybe, just maybe, people don't agree with the concept.
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I really dont understand why off map stuff is allowed by the game program. Is it impossible to set a boundary? Maybe just model a thin strip of land around the edge of the map.
Anyway as for the ethics of the situation, it really isnt cute at all to hide it and take advantage of a flaw in the game rather than fairly defend your CV.
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Sailing the CV to enemy port is fair then? And moose I do not speak for all the knights. Where you got that I do not know. Having a high ranked player come in and steal the CV and move it to enemy base is fair then hiding it off map is fair as well. It is a mute discussion and will be dealt with accordingly. If it is allowed inthe game how is it cheating? Define that to me and I will be happy. As far as I see and this is my opinion it is legal to do. And it has been done before.
Moose if you want a verbal war so be it, but every response from you is negative. I have never comeout and attacked one individual, so if you mind please keep your mouth shut.
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"Gaming the game"??
IMO there's no such thing. If the game allows you to do it, then its fair game.
If it really DOES affect the game in an adverse manner, petition HTC to change it. But until it gets changed, consider it fair play.
J_A_B
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Sturm,
If you had been on this forum for more then a month you would realize that I am not one to be negative. I'd rather shoot you down 40 times in the MA then have it out on the board.
You have your feelings towards the situation, I have mine. Just because I don't share your view on two topics right now and I've made some valid points doesn't mean I'm negative. It's a big peeve of mine to be generalized when someone doesn't even know me very well.
Now,
Putting the ship back from the action is one thing, but sticking it where it can't be used or seen? Come on, even Lazs will agree with me that it just makes a waste of a perfectly good CV group. If a rook was doing it, you can be sure that I'd be telling a knit or bish where it was. It's the exact same situation as an off-map raid. Questionable.
And it's not about whether it's a cheat or not. That depends on your views. As long as it is OUR CV that YOUR COUNTRY is hiding away, it's allright to you and you'll continue to hide it. If the situation was reversed, please don't say you'd defend your viewpoint as steadily as you want to do now.
Knits, be men and bring that CV back and use it. What is the point of hiding it?
Natedog/Superfly - the idea of having land on the edges of the map (50k high anyone?) is a good point. If a player were to submit a modified current MA terrain with these 'walls' would it be accepted?
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You can hide a snubby .38 in your jock can't ya? That don't meen ya can whip it out and blow the first basemans diddlyin head off before he can make the catch. Dweebs!
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Oh my.
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Going of the map in ANY vehicle should result in a destroyed vehicle and a death for the player with all of the point ramifications that would entail. This ranks up there with carbombing, stick stirring and the way some players were able to induce warps.
Mav
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I don't really see how having a CV that can be hidden is really any different than having weapon availablity being denied by bombing a hangar. I dislike both of these features of the game equally and for exactly the same reasons.
Hooligan
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Moose if the edge was turned off I would be in favor of it. And I agree that we both have different views on this. I support the members who fly in our group 100%. But what I do find not acceptable is sending the fleet to enemy territory with no one on it to defend it. As far as hiding it, I really do not know how far the map extends out. I guess this problem won't be solved until HTC fixes the outer limits of the map. This is the only game I have been in that really criticizes off map excursions.
I guess this whole thing stems from sending the CV to enemy territory when no one was on it to defend it. And a person with a high rank controlled it and nothing could be done to stop it. I guess if you look at it from that view you can see where we are coming from.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Campaigning for the rights of the ME-410.
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To me the matter is black amd white. I play AH to "win the war" . The Primary object of this war of ours is to take basses, a secondary object is to destroy the enemy infrastructure.
Having said that, it seams quiet obvious that to allow a CV to recaptured by the enemy, would certainly do them much more good than any we may get from the short time we would own it while it was in harms way.
The point of the debate with AK was that they wanted to allow the CV to be in play, to allow the enemy a shot at it, My point was this was not a wise move for our side, a CV is a very easy thing to sink.
Sink it they did and shortly afterward we lost 4 bases all of which were attacked by aircraft flow from that CV. This is of course directly attributed to AK's decision to allow the CV in harms way.
Before I became a knight I was a Bishop for about 5 months, while I was a Bishop we went without a CV for a number of days on numerous occasions'.
Brady
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Originally posted by Moose11:
Oh my.
ROTFLMAO
That phrase is addictive ain't it?
Next you'll be shootin' over your squaddies canopies too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"ASSASSINS have BIGGER Joysticks!"
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Radar officer:
Grneral yakamoto..the enemy has moved their fleet off our radar!!!!
General yakamoto on open channel:
DWEEBS!!
Wobble,
I look at it this way....
This Yakamoto guy could not take any fleet off of the earth.
To me, for our purposes here, the map is our known earth and boundaries.
Taking a captured CV group and moving it across the map or even have it take a Love Boat cruise is ok IMO.
What isn't ok, is taking it off the map and out of the boundaries. Is it possible to do, yes, does that make it ok...not by me, but to each his own.
Paintmaw,
What difference does your question make? AKCurly just happened to bring it up because it happened with the Knights and he is flying in that chess piece this tour. I think it is more relevant to focus on his original intent of solicitating opinions on this aspect of the game.
Brady,
I think at this point the Rooks may own a bish CV (13 I think). The bish have owned P14 for sometime now. They have not retreived their CV back, nor have we taken it off the map. It has been in play and on the map the whole time. It has taken a scenic tour, but it has been on the map and at times within very close striking distance of Knits and Bish. Was even used on the offensive.
I see a big difference between that and taking a CV off the map and beyond the map's boarders.
Cobra
**Edit...Oops the Bish got it back!
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 04-08-2001).]
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See what happens when Gilligan slips the Skipper a sleeping pill? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Well some rooks will be pretty pissed at me if I see ours or a captured CV off the map.
I will either out it or stear it to where it can engage. To do other wise is knightly.
If ours is missing when I log on I will change coutries and find it.
Any questions.
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I would love to see code added that if a CV were outside of a certain zone (off the map) for more than 15 minutes it returned to its port.
AKDejaVu
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Ok, thanks for your remarks. I didn't bring this up to chide Brady or Whels1 -- it's their $30. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On the other hand, let me point it's lunacy to use words like "honor" and "traitor to your country."
Guys, this is a game. The purpose of the game is to have fun. Our intentions should be guided by actions which result in more fun for all three countries.
Making a quick capture of a port and CV [knowing in advance you can't defend it] and then hiding the CV isn't fun for anyone except perhaps for the guys who did it.
Making true "off the map" raids on HQ isn't fun for anyone, except perhaps for the raiders. On the other hand, nothing is more fun than looking up towards HQ and seeing a big, red bar. Even if I get shot down and even if we lose DAR, man, now that's fun!
I have no grief with anyone doing anything that HTC permits <shrug> their $30.
However, so long as the majority of the community looks down on 'off the map' hq raids and 'hiding the CV,' I imagine there will be always be someone to move the CV back into play or simply tell the opposition where it's located. Similarly about the HQ raids.
I haven't seen the bish or rooks do either of the above. It doesn't mean the bish and rooks don't do it --- I just haven't see it. I have seen a few of the knights repeatedly do both deeds. Most knights appear to believe 'hiding the CV' and 'off map HQ raids' really suck. If I had a dollar for every time I was flying either rook or bish and had been warned there was an off-the-map HQ raid in progress, why I could comfortably retire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, I don't censor whels1 or brady5 -- as far as I'm concerned, they can play the game anyway they want to. Ahem, so can I and so can Nimitz. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That certainly includes moving the CV back into play.
Strum, I didn't discuss this with you because it's not a squad matter. It's a game play issue and I wanted to know how the community felt about the issues. Your opinion concerning CV hiding is important to me, but only as a participant, not as a member of jv44.
AKcurly
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why not having a kind off mine field outside the map so there would be a chance to make it but probably not.
If we can fly or sail off map so be it
it is possible so it will be done
make the boundarys bigger
Actually this is the only way for suprise attacks in AH sometimes an offmap attack unites forces and that is a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
U can't win the game with offmap attacks that has never been done it also costs a lot more time to do it.
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There is an even easier answer. Redesign the clipboard so that users can slew the map a number of sectors off center. You might even highlight the dweebs in a bright yellow, so we all know what they are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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I have a better idea: let's just get rid of the player controlled fleet completely!
Lets face it: The heavy fleet ack sucks.. endless whining about it.. Because its so overmodeled the fleet has become an instrument of terror for most players. (You know, us who regularly have problems with it..)
The fleet is mostly used for gaming the game according to the posts, now who wants that?
There is always a fight about who knows how to control the fleet best, why bother?
If the fleet is so damn precious that you can't take it near combat, what's the use of having one? Just to deny enemy the use of it? Again, why bother?
It's better off with random computer control and neutered ack OR better yet, completely removed.
Just my .02
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i guess control of CV is controled by "rank"?
don't know , never controled a CV.
AK's are a gypsy squad (change sides every month)....maybe "rank" to control CV should be based on how many days in a row you have flown with one side??
Admiral of the ocean sea
Chris Colombo
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Again and again....
It is a matter of conceptions. Somebody are here for the fun, some others seems to be here to prove something.
Altho tactically sound, Hiding Fleet off the map detracts fun from the game. For me, It is exactly the same as off the map raids. As Dweebish as this. Off-The-Map air raids are also tactically sound movements, but shows little respect for your opponents, and little skills as well, as shows evidence that the planners and executors: a) Have not a better idea on how to inflict damage to the enemy b) Are people who don't care to take advantage of a blatant bug in the game to achieve their objectives.
Here, as in life, we have to have a bit of everything. Good people who come here to have fun and burn some adrenaline, and folks whose idea of fun is win win win whatever it takes. If they need to game the game, so be it. They are only just a bit away from hackers, but the philosophy is the same...If It can be done, why not? I guess that It's only that they do not know how to hack this. Thank God.
I <S> AK's for what they have apparently done. In my onw country, I will do the same if I am able to. If not (rank is not that good nowadays (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) I will inform where our Off-the-map dweeb lives.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I'm not a fleet lover so no fleet would be fine with me . Haveing a mine layer whould be cool though and a mine sweeper .
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I think it is up to HTC to set the allowed level of gaming the game. In other words, if:
- Hispanos have heavy tank armor penetration
- CV groups have that 3K-30K selective UFO-ack
- GV spawn points sometimes make playing Quakeish
- you ditch only 1ft beyond your rwy but you can land safely in a semi-closed enemy rwy
- autopilot is often the only one able to spin a plane
- off-mappers are still welcome
- car-bombers are still welcome
- 2 Lancasters can ruin 50 players fun
- buffs can still do aerobatics at 30K while fiters stall
- buff Brownings still have such incredible lethality settings
- buffs can put a bomb in a barrel from 30K,
then perhaps it must be a reason. Some of those are known bugs(?) from, say, one year and a half. Probably they are game features you have to live with.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I would love to see code added that if a CV were outside of a certain zone (off the map) for more than 15 minutes it returned to its port.
AKDejaVu
I agree.
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I have been encouraging others to use it against the Bishops, its better in an offensive role against our enemie's enemy than it is parked. I would have never put up a mission to capture Port 55 and personally sunk that CV last week had I known it was going to be 'parked' in such a manner.
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/Mag33-Blank-Sig-22.gif)
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"Chaos, panic, & disorder -- my work here is never finished."
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Originally posted by paintmaw:
I'm not a fleet lover so no fleet would be fine with me . Haveing a mine layer whould be cool though and a mine sweeper .
(http://www.matthoffman.cc/bb/minesweeper.jpg)
I know it's fun & all, but do you really think it belongs in AH?
SOB
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i think it sucks parking fleets.who ever did it is an idiot whether is to safe guard it or 'deny the enemy' (ROFL)
What youve done effectively is removed a game peice!.Its like playing chess and hiding the king under the table so the game cant end fairly.
Whom so ever thought this up id suggest you consider it cheating.
Flying bombers off map i think is ok personally although i think its a bit cowardly and very dull, i cant be bothered to do it myself as it takes forever and besides gunning is more fun.I get great pleasure killing the off map buffs anyhow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The carrier thing though I find distasteful.
What good is a carrier that we never use or see?
handsomehunk PLAN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
sure sail around in hiding! that will give me something to search for just dont remove it from play.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-09-2001).]
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You might call it being a traitor but if I see buffs/carriers going off the map then I go on open channel and tell everyone.
Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's right or fair.
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I am 100% opposed to hiding enemy CVs. If you capture a ROOK CV, take it down to bishop territory and attack with it. Use the territory gained as an advantage, not a non-factor.
I 100% agree with Deja, if CV off map for 15 minutes, it returns to port. I think this is the exact same thing as off the map bombing - gaming the game and unacceptable. Brady condones off the map bombing, and even admitted to doing it "all the time." This was almost enough for me to leave the knights. If it were not for the AK's all being knight, I would have. I will not support people who, in my mind, cheat.
But as my wise father has indicated, it is your $30, play as you will ;/
Nimitz
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Nimitz, if you did leave, you'd be leaving for yet another country that does it, Knits were hit with a big HQ raid yesterday that was 35-50 miles off map. Every country has users that do it, and I'm sure HTC is fixing that problem.
With all due respect, leaving another country wouldn't do anything except make you feel better.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-09-2001).]
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You know, if they turned off sector counters, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Hiding a CV is just LAME. But its also quite stupid to capture a CV, lose that cv's port and leave the CV around to be re-captured. I usually pull the CV out of the area and keep it at a distance, but not all the way to the edge of the map or the like. If they want their CV back, heck, they will have to make an effort and sink it, I ain't going to leave it hovering near their airfield so a kamikaze attack gets it.
2 tours ago, we were on the SE island, we lost the Port and CV. when we recaptured port, they pulled the CV back WAAAY North of A9 and it was still steaming north. CavemanJ, others and myself took some ponies up and did a kamikaze strike on it, we got it back. Had we not done that , that cv wouldve been parked in that corner until the reset or something.
Off map buff raids is a way of cheating imo. Anyone claiming "strategy" or "tactic" is just making up excuses for their actions. If you really need to take 2 lancs off the map at 30k, why the fek do it off map? at 30k you can fly directly over the enemy territory unharmed and come back. All that time it takes you to circumvent the map is the same time it would take you to get to 32k+ in a lancaster. Bring along 2 escorts and no one will touch you.
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Ripsnort, I certainly hope you are not referring to the Arado raid the Assassins threw up last night that went right through enemy territory at 10k!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now THAT folks, takes guts.
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No Moose, this wasn't last night, it was yesterday afternoon.
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Cobra , sorry my question did not meet your Criteria , umm thought this was AK Curly's post .
why do people insist on making personal attacks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Paint,
It wasn't a personal attack at all.
I'm sorry that you construed it that way.
I'm actually surprised that you interpeted that way.
Cobra
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I agree with AKcurly...needs to be fixed, we all know this a quirk in the game and hiding the CV is no different than taking your ball and going home......
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I'm probably being too sensitive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RIP,
Read post carefully (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I said I would have left if it werent for the AK's being knight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I aint going anywhere (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nimitz
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FYI: I asked a Knit player to quit hiding the Bish CV as his waypoints had it going waaaaay back to the corner where it would be no use to anyone...asked him nicely and had a discussion about it for 10 min or so...no avail...so I disclosed to Wardog (Bish) where it was and Bish took it back promptly. I would expect all the vets in each country to please do the same if you have a countryman stashing that thing away.
<S>
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I do not like the concept of "We take your port, we get your fleet". It is enough punishment to the country who lost the port to lose its fleet, giving it to enemy is a clear game design flaw IMHO, which leads to abuses which are discussed above.
It will be enough if fleet owner country will just not get it respawn, if it sank, until it gets its port back. It may be right to add longer time after a port recapture for gettign fleet back for fleet owner, well, half of hour may be enough (port infrastructure is dammaged, etc.), but NOT giving it to the port capturer country.
Fariz
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Now thats a great idea Fariz - GREAT idea. It would accomplish exactly what the people who hide the fleet want, the inability of the enemy to use/get it back. And it would appease the my side, fair gamesmanship.
Great idea!
Nim
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
FYI: I asked a Knit player to quit hiding the Bish CV as his waypoints had it going waaaaay back to the corner where it would be no use to anyone...asked him nicely and had a discussion about it for 10 min or so...no avail...so I disclosed to Wardog (Bish) where it was and Bish took it back promptly. I would expect all the vets in each country to please do the same if you have a countryman stashing that thing away.
<S>
Thats all it take Rip. <S>
I think often the guys hiding the things arnt the guys that nabbed it anyway.
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Fariz, excellent idea.