Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Zacherof on February 26, 2013, 03:51:49 PM
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I'm aware to the fact theat all 20mm rounds are explosive rounds, but is there a difference to the lethality or how hard the different rounds are from the different countries?
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Yes!
:salute
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So from what I've read hispanos do the most damage pound for pound then.
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Detailed information on WW2 aerial armament can be found here:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ideal.htm
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm
and here
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-am.html
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-fi.html
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-fi.html
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So from what I've read hispanos do the most damage pound for pound then.
Indeed. Below is the damage ranking in lbs for the 20mm's in AH and some examples of aircraft they are in:
RAF: Hispano (Mk's II/V): 4.03 (Spits, Tiff, Mossi, etc, and USN's C-Hog too)
JPN: Type 99 Mk II: 3.85 (NiK2, A6M5)
GER: MG151/20: 3.55 (190's, most 109's)
Sov: B20/ShVAK: 3.47 (La's, Yak 9U)
JPN: Type 99 Mk I: 3.42 A6M2, G4M
JPN: Ho-5: 3.35 (Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-67)
GER: MG-FF: 3.25 (109E-4)
For reference, the Wirblewind does 4.0
These damage values are accurate as of Nov of 2012.
For the heck of it, below are the .50 cal damage as well:
US/UK: .50 cal Browing: 1.17 (US fighters, Spit 14/16)
Soviet: 12.7mm UBS 1.15 (Yaks, I-16)
Japan: 12.7mm Ho-103 0.99 (Ki-84, Ki-61)
Italia: 12.7mm SAFAT 0.95 (C202, C205)
GER: 13mm MG 131 .92 (109G6/14/k4, 190A8/F8/D9, 410)
For reference, the .50 cal Browning from gv's does 1.25 lbs of damage.
Also, all of the .30 calibers in AH (.303 Brit, 8mm, 7.7mm, 7.62, etc), do between .28 and .31 lbs of damage. Too close to worry much about separating them out.
This info too was accurate as of Nov 2012.
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Loon, is the P-38 armed with a Hispano equivalent as well?
They and the CHog both had Mk3's right? Which were licensed Hispanos?
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Loon, is the P-38 armed with a Hispano equivalent as well?
They and the CHog both had Mk3's right? Which were licensed Hispanos?
Yes. The US 20mm's found in the P38G and P39D (Mk I = M1), P38J/L and P39Q (Mk II = M2), and F4U-1C (Mk II = M2)are licensed copies of the Hispano, the same ammunition was used as well. In the real deal the US versions were not as reliable for whatever reasons hence the US's hesitation to completely switch to the 20mm over the tried and true (and overly abundant) M2 Browning .50 caliber HMG's for their main aircraft weapons platform. The usual "not built here" posturing led to the US to be behind in arming its planes with a legit 20mm and later a 30mm cannon for its planes.
Also, the only aircraft in AH to use the 20mm Hispano Mk V's is the Tempest, without digging I believe the cartridge is the exact same but the barrel length is shorter and rate of fire is increased over the 20mm Hispano Mk II. I believe the only difference we "need" to worry about (if anything at all) is the differences in trajectory due to a slightly lower velocity. That is something I'll have to look up to be sure though. If there is any difference I certainly cant tell.
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The explosive damage is different, yes, but more so is the ballistics. How flat does it fly, how long does it take to get to target, etc.... Hispanos are lazers, MG/FF are spuds, to take it to extremes.
For the most part they still go "boom" when they hit. Some are just easier to hit with than others.
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The explosive damage is different, yes, but more so is the ballistics. How flat does it fly, how long does it take to get to target, etc.... Hispanos are lazers, MG/FF are spuds, to take it to extremes.
For the most part they still go "boom" when they hit. Some are just easier to hit with than others.
What is the damage difference between the Mk II and Mk V Hispanos? or are you speaking in general? I found the Mk II and Mk V to produce the exact same damage.
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Does anyone know if the Hispano mounted in the P38 and F4uC had the same barrel length as the ones in the Typhoon and Spitfire in the RAF? I realize they were license built copies, but were they copied exactly, or were they altered at all for reasons such as fitting the airframes etc?
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Does anyone know if the Hispano mounted in the P38 and F4uC had the same barrel length as the ones in the Typhoon and Spitfire in the RAF? I realize they were license built copies, but were they copied exactly, or were they altered at all for reasons such as fitting the airframes etc?
Yes, the same as the Hispano Mk II in the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Typhoon and Mosquito, longer than the Hispano Mk V in the Tempest.
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Doesn't the 12.7mm SAFAT fire HE? I'm surprised it's that weak.
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Indeed. Below is the damage ranking in lbs for the 20mm's in AH and some examples of aircraft they are in:
RAF: Hispano (Mk's II/V): 4.03 (Spits, Tiff, Mossi, etc, and USN's C-Hog too)
JPN: Type 99 Mk II: 3.85 (NiK2, A6M5)
GER: MG151/20: 3.55 (190's, most 109's)
Sov: B20/ShVAK: 3.47 (La's, Yak 9U)
JPN: Type 99 Mk I: 3.42 A6M2, G4M
JPN: Ho-5: 3.35 (Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-67)
GER: MG-FF: 3.25 (109E-4)
For reference, the Wirblewind does 4.0
These damage values are accurate as of Nov of 2012.
For the heck of it, below are the .50 cal damage as well:
US/UK: .50 cal Browing: 1.17 (US fighters, Spit 14/16)
Soviet: 12.7mm UBS 1.15 (Yaks, I-16)
Japan: 12.7mm Ho-103 0.99 (Ki-84, Ki-61)
Italia: 12.7mm SAFAT 0.95 (C202, C205)
GER: 13mm MG 131 .92 (109G6/14/k4, 190A8/F8/D9, 410)
For reference, the .50 cal Browning from gv's does 1.25 lbs of damage.
Also, all of the .30 calibers in AH (.303 Brit, 8mm, 7.7mm, 7.62, etc), do between .28 and .31 lbs of damage. Too close to worry much about separating them out.
This info too was accurate as of Nov 2012.
does that take ROF into account?
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does that take ROF into account?
No, that's per round.
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So from what I've read hispanos do the most damage pound for pound then.
Hispanos were prone to jamming if they were fired under G-stress. The pilots were scared of it and many times opted for mg:s instead of cannons. This isn't modeled in AH so they're unrealistically effective currently.
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I still have a hard time with the RS82 rockets being almost 50% as destructive as the WG21.
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Hispanos were prone to jamming if they were fired under G-stress. The pilots were scared of it and many times opted for mg:s instead of cannons. This isn't modeled in AH so they're unrealistically effective currently.
American made Hispanos, not British made Hispanos.
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what does the Wirblewind shoot , because they hit noticebly harder than any other 20mm in game.
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4 mg 151's. but the round is has a damage of 4 compared to that of '2 as apples to the hispanos and 151's
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4 mg 151's. but the round is has a damage of 4 compared to that of '2 as apples to the hispanos and 151's
No, MG151/20s are lightly built aircraft guns. No reason to suffer the weight restrictions on a tracked vehicle.
It was armed with four 20mm Flakvierling 38s.
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And the shot is different with a larger casing with more powder to drive the projectile faster. The projectiles however are the same as those in aircraft guns.
-C+
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American made Hispanos, not British made Hispanos.
I was going to ask that, as in a couple of books I've read about Buzz Beurling he purposely had the .303 mg's removed from his SpitV in Malta, as well did some other pilots, as they felt they were useless weight. I somehow doubted the hispanos were finicky and that the pilots were "scared to use them and went with MG's" if they actually had the MG's yanked right out. They must have worked OK, as Buzz was the fastest scoring ace on the allied side in the war, getting nearly all of his kills in a very compressed period of time, again, nearly all with hispano 20m fire.
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American made Hispanos, not British made Hispanos.
the american hispano is a strict copy of the original hs404, while the British one is an improved model IIRC
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the american hispano is a strict copy of the original hs404, while the British one is an improved model IIRC
Kinda. The American one is a copy of the British Mk II, but with the original breech length. The British explained the problems they had encountered and their solution, but the Americans declined to implement it. I've read a British test of an American made Hispano. Basically said the quality and workmanship was much better than the British made Hispanos, but that it suffered frequent stoppages rendering it unfit for service.
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I still have a hard time with the RS82 rockets being almost 50% as destructive as the WG21.
The Soviets RS82's have 92 lbs of damage, while the WGr21's have 200 lbs of damage. The big thing to check in to is the amount of explosives, and the "type" of warhead projectile. The ultimate scale of how this stuff is rated is how it fits in within the "312 lbs" scale. Meaning, HTC has ordnance scaled as to not be over powering on the typical OBJ (ammo bunkers, barracks, radar mast, town building, fuel tanks, etc), yet give it the due it has coming. I presented to HTC some times ago the differences between the British 3in/60 pdr rockets and the US 5in HVAR rockets, and I believe Pyro was the person who adjusted in in favor of the 3in/60 Pdr rockets. Likewise, the US 75mm HE round from the M4/75 Sherman, that too was adjusted to reflect its superior HE capability to all but a few tanks in WWII.
Keep in mind that when comparing the German Wg21 rockets to anything, that they were designed and meant to be used for air to air purposes and that when used vs OBJ take it with a grain of salt because that is not a good base to compare to. For comparison purposes, keep the Soviet RS82 and RS132, US 4.5in M8 (same rockets on M4 Calliope as well) and 5in HVAR, and UK 3in/60 Pdr rockets in their own group as they are the true air to ground rockets in the game. The German Pb1 rockets are designated anti-armor rockets and do slight HE damage (too much, imo), yet will easily destroy any tank in AH with a solid hit. The German WGr21 rockets are air to air. The German 28cm Wurfkorper rockets are ground to ground and are devastating when used properly against a town.
In short, do not compare the Soviet RS82 rockets to the German WGr21 rockets, it is worse than the apple vs orange comparison.
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Kinda. The American one is a copy of the British Mk II, but with the original breech length. The British explained the problems they had encountered and their solution, but the Americans declined to implement it. I've read a British test of an American made Hispano. Basically said the quality and workmanship was much better than the British made Hispanos, but that it suffered frequent stoppages rendering it unfit for service.
I'm under the impression that the US version was a Mk I copy, then was "upgraded" to a Mk II without following the change in chamber dimensions. Basically, the US swapped out the mechanics of the operating system yet kept the Mk I barrels and hence the original chamber dimensions. IIRC, the issues with the high G's and/or changes in temperature is what prompted the British to develop the Mk II, and then the Mk V. It would be those two 20mm models that became the benchmark of 20mm aircraft cannons.
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Here is a great article on Tony Williams' website, regarding the US/British Hispano 20mm
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm
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It was armed with four 20mm Flakvierling 38s.
16 guns? Wow :x
;)
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Here is a great article on Tony Williams' website, regarding the US/British Hispano 20mm
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm
That is a great source of info. Thanks for posting.