Aces High Bulletin Board

Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Sunka on February 28, 2013, 06:39:37 PM

Title: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on February 28, 2013, 06:39:37 PM
So i made this training video,i sent it to some trainers before i listed it here to get there over all approval,two said its fine ,one never responded and one said they would get back to me.So that is good enough i guess.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blQcADYuYfk


good luck.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: morfiend on February 28, 2013, 10:38:16 PM
 Not bad Sunka! :aok

 The music was abit loud compared to your voice over but otherwise well done.




   :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on February 28, 2013, 10:59:41 PM
Thanks a lot Morf,that means a lot coming from ya.
One dose not realize how hard this would be till i sat down and said ..okay now what.
But i will keep practicing making em better,next one will be rolling scissors i think.

 :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: jeffdn on March 01, 2013, 12:23:55 AM
Truly great stuff, Sunka! Morfiend was teaching me these exact tactics last night, and your video illustrated it fantastically!
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:07:03 AM
Truly great stuff, Sunka! Morfiend was teaching me these exact tactics last night, and your video illustrated it fantastically!
Ty a lot Jeff!,trainers are our best tool in the game i just hope these videos help.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mechanic on March 01, 2013, 05:24:10 AM
Great video, very helpfull
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: JimmyD3 on March 01, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Very well done!!! Learned a lot, thankyou!!! :aok
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Triton28 on March 01, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
Good stuff Sunka.

 :rock
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Randy1 on March 01, 2013, 09:31:26 AM
Had a chance to watch the videos.  Well done.  They were clear and well documented.

Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:31:06 PM
.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:36:29 PM
.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:37:05 PM
.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:37:48 PM
.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:39:34 PM
.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:40:25 PM
Awesomesauce at all the great comments.   :banana:
It is nice to when one works on something to have it appreciated.   :rock
So with this good response I'm going to make my next video in much the same style (just better).   :salute

Sunka.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Triton28 on March 01, 2013, 01:54:12 PM
Sunka... you're starting to sound like my wife with all this repeating. 

 :D
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 01:56:39 PM
Sunka... you're starting to sound like my wife with all this repeating. 

 :D
   :lol  funny
ZOMG whats up with the lagg web site. 
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mtnman on March 01, 2013, 06:40:58 PM
Wow!  Nice job Sunka!
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 01, 2013, 07:00:48 PM
Really ?I hope so..I'm all like thanking you in it ,don't want to make you look bad. :D

 :salute

And ty a lot!
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mtnman on March 01, 2013, 07:39:14 PM
Really ?I hope so..I'm all like thanking you in it ,don't want to make you look bad. :D

 :salute

And ty a lot!


It's nice to see you putting together a video and passing on your knowledge.  It's neat to share something, and then see it continued to be shared by someone else in turn.

Thanks for the credit; I really don't think it's necessary, but cool to see!

Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: bcadoo on March 02, 2013, 11:23:56 AM
Very nice!  I prefer describing energy as kinetic (airspeed) and potential (altitude).  You also may want to go into the 'why' on not being nose low at the merge and explain the turning egg due to gravity.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: FLS on March 02, 2013, 01:08:38 PM
Very nice!  I prefer describing energy as kinetic (airspeed) and potential (altitude).  You also may want to go into the 'why' on not being nose low at the merge and explain the turning egg due to gravity.

I expect it's easier for people to understand explanations that use terms they are already familiar with. Aircraft have an altimeter and speedometer. You can consider them to be potential and kinetic energy gauges but the descriptive quantifiable units will still be MPH and Feet.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mechanic on March 02, 2013, 06:04:51 PM
Just a quick point to anyone reading this thread. While the video is helpfull it may also be slightly misleading in certain minor areas. If any new players want to ask about any of the subject material shown in this video I would advise booking an hour with a trainer in the TA.

Sunka, you've had the good news already so now time for a little bad news. There are certain mistakes in your tutorial. I also advise spending some time with a trainer. Maybe just a 15 minute catch up with one of the most experienced trainers like TC or Badboy, who would be able to run through a few things that you could have done better. Shoot either of them a PM here on the board if you want some realistic criticism.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 02, 2013, 07:19:47 PM
Just a quick point to anyone reading this thread. While the video is helpfull it may also be slightly misleading in certain minor areas. If any new players want to ask about any of the subject material shown in this video I would advise booking an hour with a trainer in the TA.

Sunka, you've had the good news already so now time for a little bad news. There are certain mistakes in your tutorial. I also advise spending some time with a trainer. Maybe just a 15 minute catch up with one of the most experienced trainers like TC or Badboy, who would be able to run through a few things that you could have done better. Shoot either of them a PM here on the board if you want some realistic criticism.
I can take the video down np.  :aok (edit)infact its done.So no more video  ty for your help.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mechanic on March 02, 2013, 09:43:47 PM
Wow, not sure what made you think the video should come down sir. Like I said it's a great video and helpfull. All I'm saying is that there are a few mistakes that the more experienced trainers (not me) might be able to correct with slightly higher fidelity. Don't take offence. Everyone needs encouragement and some critisism to improve (myself more than most)

S!
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 02, 2013, 09:59:21 PM
Wow, not sure what made you think the video should come down sir. Like I said it's a great video and helpfull. All I'm saying is that there are a few mistakes that the more experienced trainers (not me) might be able to correct with slightly higher fidelity. Don't take offence. Everyone needs encouragement and some critisism to improve (myself more than most)

S!
I sent this to a bunch of trainers to get opinions before i ever posted it (so i would not have to see there are mistakes in open forms),and not all got back to me but i felt i had enough okays to go ahead and post.
You yourself sent me a pm saying how good it was (nothing else), then you come here and say i maybe should go to trainers area.
I don't know what happend to change your opinion of my video in the 2 days.
I do expect it is not perfect (not much is) but i had two main goals in this
#1 do not teach anything that is down right wrong ( not someones opinion) but just for fact is wrong.
#2 To just help with small parts of ACM.
I thought i did that ,to date i have not gotten any info on how to make the video better for a point of fact just opinion on what could "look" better.
So with no info on how to make it better but you say there are mistakes i can do nothing but take it down.
No big deal i was trying to help,if that's not happening i don't need to take days on days to make these.

 :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mechanic on March 02, 2013, 10:59:34 PM
I thought I replied to your PM by saying it was a well made video and would be helpful. This I still believe to be true.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 02, 2013, 11:21:03 PM
I thought I replied to your PM by saying it was a well made video and would be helpful. This I still believe to be true.
O i know bud,i just did not want to post it with anything (to) wrong,and till i know what to fix i cant fix it so i wont post it.
I don't want to give players bad info.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 02, 2013, 11:51:35 PM
Hey Sunka,
To clear up something regarding your opening post, as you're yourself are already aware of...
I'm the one who pm'ed Sunka, letting him I would help review and get back to him...  I did get a chance to reply, although to late, since RL and wedding planning for my Lady's daughter has been taking my time lately... My apologies for that Sunka, Sir!

As for anything else,  I will try and help you Sunka via pm as we have been doing....

.<§> Sunka

TC
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mthrockmor on March 02, 2013, 11:56:59 PM
Shows as a private video and won't allow me to watch it.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 03, 2013, 12:12:17 AM
Shows as a private video and won't allow me to watch it.

Ya rockmor there might be some things wrong with the video,not really sure how wrong or whats up.
Got kind of mixed reviews of late,I'll re open it if i find it is okay. Sorry i would not have posted this if i thought it was not worth posting.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 03, 2013, 12:14:04 AM
Hey Sunka,
To clear up something regarding your opening post, as you're yourself are already aware of...
I'm the one who pm'ed Sunka, letting him I would help review and get back to him...  I did get a chance to reply, although to late, since RL and wedding planning for my Lady's daughter has been taking my time lately... My apologies for that Sunka, Sir!

As for anything else,  I will try and help you Sunka via pm as we have been doing....

.<§> Sunka

TC
O NP TC real life is real life this is a game.I just wanted to get it out there after working on it,my mistake.    :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Triton28 on March 03, 2013, 01:29:17 AM
Private video..  :noid
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 03, 2013, 01:34:42 AM
 
Private video..  :noid
:lol it was showing just a little to much.    :noid

But no, really i have got some comments that there might be some small mistakes or things that could be said better,so when i find out what that is I'll try and fix then open it back up.


You fine players of the AH comunity deserve nothing but the best.

 :aok
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 06, 2013, 06:38:08 PM
 :lol it was showing just a little to much.    :noid

But no, really i have got some comments that there might be some small mistakes or things that could be said better,so when i find out what that is I'll try and fix then open it back up.


You fine players of the AH comunity deserve nothing but the best.

 :aok

can I  watch it ?

didn't get a chance to yet  :(
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 06, 2013, 08:32:37 PM
can I  watch it ?

didn't get a chance to yet  :(
Sure..i unlocked it,still awaiting more info from some trainers.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 06, 2013, 08:55:44 PM
well honestly I do see some stuff.....first I am not great at the terminology....but at one point you say the nme can only do 3 things....."up...down....or sideways".....this is not true......he can do all that and more....a combination of those.....so to speak....




edit

and if you always do a "vertical move" you are predictable and anyone worth his sand will make short work of ya :old:

Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 06, 2013, 09:04:52 PM
well honestly I do see some stuff.....first I am not great at the terminology....but at one point you say the nme can only do 3 things....."up...down....or sideways".....this is not true......he can do all that and more....a combination of those.....so to speak....




edit

and if you always do a "vertical move" you are predictable and anyone worth his sand will make short work of ya :old:


Both them statements where not from "me" but form the aces.org site,and you can only go in one direction at a time,you cant go up down at the same time.  :D
And as far as the vert merge,that's why i covered a horizontal merge with the spit.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 06, 2013, 09:57:13 PM
I wish I could put into words better....

someone with better ability in terminology has to chime in...

I also disagree with trying to get your nose below the con on merge....

I think my biggest thing about the video is the absolutes I hear in the description.....do this and this will happen.....


 one of the things that I love about dogfighting, is the fact that every fight is different, no 2 fights are the same....

for that reason alone it is wrong to always do a "certain" maneuver .




 
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 06, 2013, 10:04:43 PM
I wish I could put into words better....

someone with better ability in terminology has to chime in...

I also disagree with trying to get your nose below the con on merge....

I think my biggest thing about the video is the absolutes I hear in the description.....do this and this will happen.....


 one of the things that I love about dogfighting, is the fact that every fight is different, no 2 fights are the same....

for that reason alone it is wrong to always do a "certain" maneuver .




 
Well that's why i showed real fights.
When mtnman showed me the merge (years ago) he showed me a basic way to start..that's all I'm doing ink.I could show all the ways you say to fight if i want to make a 2 hour movie,don't know what more i can do with 10 minuets,i cant cover all possible situations.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 06, 2013, 10:15:14 PM
Well that's why i showed real fights.
When mtnman showed me the merge (years ago) he showed me a basic way to start..that's all I'm doing ink.I could show all the ways you say to fight if i want to make a 2 hour movie,don't know what more i can do with 10 minuets,i cant cover all possible situations.

I know...and I am not trying to dis what you did.....I am just an Honest guy and no matter what will give an honest opinion....you seem to what to put out the best vid you can.......:salute

I think maybe wording it so it doesn't sound so absolute or even describing certain aspects....if someone is going vert he is not necessarily going straight up.....and same with down....

I could be wrong but "obleak"(sp?) turn comes to mind....

also in the merge when a con who dove is significantly faster then the con that didn't, he will most likely come back up and pass within guns of his opponent...inturn allowing the opponent to follow him up....depending on how much faster or E he was carrying will depend on if the nme gets roped but a good stick will just roll away from the rope.



Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 06, 2013, 10:18:00 PM
I know...and I am not trying to dis what you did.....I am just an Honest guy and no matter what will give an honest opinion....you seem to what to put out the best vid you can.......:salute

I think maybe wording it so it doesn't sound so absolute or even describing certain aspects....if someone is going vert he is not necessarily going straight up.....and same with down....

I could be wrong but "obleak"(sp?) turn comes to mind....

also in the merge when a con who dove is significantly faster then the con that didn't, he will most likely come back up and pass within guns of his opponent...inturn allowing the opponent to follow him up....depending on how much faster or E he was carrying will depend on if the nme gets roped but a good stick will just roll away from the rope.




No 8 min video will ever take the place of a trainer or practice.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 06, 2013, 10:24:48 PM
No 8 min video will ever take the place of a trainer or practice.

very true :salute

what about doing the vid on just one aspect and adding vids so at the end it would be a collection of vids

first vid on the "lead turn" using it.... and understanding when an opponent is using it against you, and what to do to counter it....

like you say a short vid can only get so much info but spending more time on one aspect and doing a series of vids will be better for consumption.



Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 06, 2013, 10:30:26 PM
very true :salute

what about doing the vid on just one aspect and adding vids so at the end it would be a collection of vids

first vid on the "lead turn" using it.... and understanding when an opponent is using it against you, and what to do to counter it....

like you say a short vid can only get so much info but spending more time on one aspect and doing a series of vids will be better for consumption.




That sounds good the "merge" collection of Vids.
This WAS my first one and there are no AH training videos like I'm making to look at,so its like starting from scratch.
TC is going to be going over a lot of stuff with me (i hope) soon,after that point i will keep going.
I do like your suggestion of cutting the merge into many Vids.
 :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 06, 2013, 11:32:14 PM

TC is going to be going over a lot of stuff with me (i hope) soon,after that point i will keep going.


Heya Sunka,
shoot me a PM on what days / nights  & times  EST/EDT   that you can normally meet up, so we can get our scheduling down, Sir

Cheers

TC ( Johnny )
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: FLS on March 07, 2013, 09:58:12 AM
I wish I could put into words better....

someone with better ability in terminology has to chime in...

I also disagree with trying to get your nose below the con on merge....

I think my biggest thing about the video is the absolutes I hear in the description.....do this and this will happen.....


 one of the things that I love about dogfighting, is the fact that every fight is different, no 2 fights are the same....

for that reason alone it is wrong to always do a "certain" maneuver .
 

Ink you make good points but keep in mind that Sunka is simply putting in a video what he would be showing people in the TA or DA. It doesn't have to be perfect even though we'd all like it to be accurate.  I had mentioned a couple of problems to Sunka before he posted and I expect TC will help him with those.


Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 07, 2013, 10:24:41 AM
Ink you make good points but keep in mind that Sunka is simply putting in a video what he would be showing people in the TA or DA. It doesn't have to be perfect even though we'd all like it to be accurate.  I had mentioned a couple of problems to Sunka before he posted and I expect TC will help him with those.




absolutely....I wasn't trying to piss in his proverbial cornflakes :confused: .....just trying to help in things that I saw...I like Sunka otherwise I would not have said anything...I am learning to ignore those that ire me....

I also appreciate the effort he is putting in....

I certainly hope he takes it in constructive criticism and not that I think it sux cuz it doesn't.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: FLS on March 07, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
absolutely....I wasn't trying to piss in his proverbial cornflakes :confused: .....just trying to help in things that I saw...I like Sunka otherwise I would not have said anything...I am learning to ignore those that ire me....

I also appreciate the effort he is putting in....

I certainly hope he takes it in constructive criticism and not that I think it sux cuz it doesn't.

I wasn't criticizing you Ink, I know you're helping. Sunka is finding out that we learn subconciously through practice things that we have trouble noticing and explaining simply because they are habits learned through experience. 
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: ink on March 07, 2013, 11:17:22 AM
I wasn't criticizing you Ink, I know you're helping. Sunka is finding out that we learn subconciously through practice things that we have trouble noticing and explaining simply because they are habits learned through experience. 

 :salute
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Ravage on March 07, 2013, 10:49:02 PM
There are counters to this merge technique. If you have speed built up you can blow through gain separation and start a low g climb. After an aggressive merge attempt like the one shown he will not be able to match your climb, wait for his stall or disengagement to pounce. But be cautious your higher energy state will leave you vulnerable to an energy trap.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mtnman on March 08, 2013, 07:07:44 PM
There are counters to this merge technique. If you have speed built up you can blow through gain separation and start a low g climb. After an aggressive merge attempt like the one shown he will not be able to match your climb, wait for his stall or disengagement to pounce. But be cautious your higher energy state will leave you vulnerable to an energy trap.

Of course!  There are also counters to your counter.

There are counters for pretty much any maneuver you can think of. 

More than anything it comes down to doing the right thing, at the right time, the right way.  If you can consistently do that without really thinking about it you have a serious advantage over almost everyone you'll come up against.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: mtnman on March 08, 2013, 07:38:02 PM
I've always thought that the best way to REALLY learn something is to try to teach it to someone else.

Of course, that means that you cannot know it inside and out until AFTER you've successfully taught it.  In reality, you'll have to successfully teach it to multiple (many) people under differing circumstances to really become an expert at it.

There aren't many folks out there who can master something, and also succeed at teaching others to master it.

What you find when you teach is that you're still learning it.  And learning almost always has some "pain" associated with it.  When you look at it that way you really can't expect teaching to be painless.

Sunka, I think you're seeing that.  And I think that learning in front of others also leaves you (at least feeling) more exposed. 

Don't worry about it!
Looking through your video there are a few things I'd "tweak" or reword; but that's me, and my style.  As a used-to-be artist, I'd also be the first to tell you that I see plenty of flaws in my own work as well.

I often adjusted the way I worded or described certain maneuvers in order to help my pupils "see" what I needed to convey.  I guarantee I occasionally "strayed" from textbook teaching to accomplish my goals.  Teaching is tough!  It's tough in "normal" teaching scenarios...  It's REALLY tough when you cannot see your pupils, or his/her facial and/or body language, etc...  Add to that the cultural and locational differences, and even some geographic variance in words/terms, etc...

While that's tough, I think it's even more difficult to produce a stand-alone training film.  In the TA, we can repeat and reword and change tactics mid-way through to get our lesson across.  Not so with a video...

Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 08, 2013, 11:20:08 PM
Hey Mtnman.
This has turned out to be a challenge,for many of the points you bring up.
Wording and explaining in the "correct" terms is defiantly something i need to work on.
I'm getting into the Ta with TC very soon ,and just hanging with trainers and "diffrent" trainers has always been a goal of mine ,but one i need to fallow threw with if I'm going to keep at this.

I don't mind doing this in public at all ,some comments are very helpfull to me, and the jabber that dose not help is at least a view on how all players are looking at it.

But i think in depth "correct" training videos for ACM in aces high are far over do and someone has to try.
It is going to be very difficult but as long as the players opinions whom i care about see some promise in this, i have nothing but time and Will keep refining them.

Thank you Mtnman for your comments and any views or suggestions good or bad you have on these films i would always love to see.

Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Ravage on March 09, 2013, 02:42:20 AM
I apologize it probably appeared as if I was criticizing the video or the technique, I wasn't, the video shows THE classic merge technique and its very good. It's purpose is to teach this being a help board and all, my comment was meant to teach as well by showing 1 counter to this very popular and effective merge technique. Another counter that requires more skill is to recognize your opponents dive as the prelude to a classic vertical offset merge, immediately invert and start a shallow climb     when  opponent zoom climbs up to you merge with him at this point. This takes some practice to master.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Traveler on March 10, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
Nice Job and well done.
I'm a professional flight instructor and I think the video are great as done.  The nice thing about teaching people to fly is, no two lessons are ever the same.   These training videos are just, examples and as long as the student understand that these are just examples that can help establish certain rules, and that none of these rules are locked in stone.  They are a good training tool.  Again, job well done.
Title: Re: Training Video,The Merge
Post by: Sunka on March 11, 2013, 06:02:19 AM
Ty guys for all your comments,I'm just glad your taking the time to watch and give me your honest opinions.


 :aok