Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: bozon on March 03, 2013, 11:49:47 AM
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Abstract:
Add dar bar that indicates the number of GV in the sector.
Why:
Currently we have no idea how many vehicles are in a sector. From the air war, we learned as players the importance of the dar bar in finding the fights. The dar bar represents the general, imprecise, cumulative intelligence that is tracked by HQ. While GVs are not picked up by radar, they are tracked by aerial & ground observations, partrols, electronic intelligence, etc.
In a real war, HQ has some idea where the enemy is, though often not pinpoint position. HQ can then send troops and air support to the general area and let the local commanders pinpoint the enemy positions and engage. Therefore a dot radar will be inadequate, but a dar bar on the other hand can represent the general information about ground movements, just as it works for planes. The base is flashing when GVs come near, which represents that "somebody" virtual has seen them and the intelligence of how many of them are around is available somewhere.
Gameplay considerations:
Often as players we are looking for a ground war, but cannot find it, unless we go from one flashing base to another, spawn and search. When a base is flashing, we have no idea if it is flashing because of that one P51 that is coming to pork the ords, or because of the 50 vehicles that are sitting around its perimeter. We need this rough information.
Suggested implementation:
A thin bar at the upper left corner of the sector on top of the current dar bar. The vehicle bar can be much thinner, 1/4 of the plane bar. This will make it easy to differentiate the two even when they occupy the same corner (this is why the vehicle bar need to be on top, not to be blocked by the thicker plane bar). Putting them on top of each other minimizes the added clutter on the map.
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No....dar bar not working for a/c right now, need it fixed before new stuff added :salute
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Interesting idea but there is one big flaw. If you try to sneak a base with GV's how can you make it so they can "drive under the radar". Planes can fly NOE, what could GV's do? I know people wouldn't like the idea of taking the ability to not be seen with GV's. Thats the only problem I have with it. :salute
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Makes a lot of sense. Just as we say the dar bar represents intelligence from other sources (reports from civilians, troops on the ground, etc), these same sources would identify armored vehicles on the ground just as easily. I would venture to say there would generally be a bit more precise information on vehicle locations due to the speed (or lack of speed) of GVs. We would probably get a general idea of at least what quadrant or which direction the reports were coming from.
Regards,
Hammer
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Interesting idea but there is one big flaw. If you try to sneak a base with GV's how can you make it so they can "drive under the radar". Planes can fly NOE, what could GV's do? I know people wouldn't like the idea of taking the ability to not be seen with GV's. Thats the only problem I have with it. :salute
It is an important question, though I do not think that it is a big flaw at all. It has been a long time since the last time I saw an NOE capture raid. NOE ord/radar/troops porking yes, but not capture.
The difference from GVs is that GVs are invisible till very short range, unless the Stork is flying around. On the other hand, they spawn in a well known location. So how about this as a compromise:
A GV spawns with a clock counter of X minutes (TBD, could be arena parameter). The vehicle will not be counted in the dar bar till the clock expires.
This will give a GV assault-wave a head start of X minutes before the GV bar starts to build up. In analogy to R/L, regular army intel is much slower than the airforce centralized ground control centers (GCC), and information takes longer to reach the units. In analogy to how NOE works for an air raid, the air raid typically exposes itself about 5-10 miles from the base when climbing for the attack, giving a short notice for the defenders to scramble.
Usually however, the GV battle is slow and static. In such a prolonged, kill -> get killed -> respawn -> repeat situation, the GV bar will represent the current ground situation. When a player is looking for a GV fight, he can find it.
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The tool to gather the info that a "vehicle dar" would show is already in-game....
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/131/a/3/FIESELER_FI_156_STORCH_by_Sceptre63.jpg)
-1 to another dar bar. Get in a plane and recon the area.
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The tool to gather the info that a "vehicle dar" would show is already in-game....
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs42/i/2009/131/a/3/FIESELER_FI_156_STORCH_by_Sceptre63.jpg)
-1 to another dar bar. Get in a plane and recon the area.
But there has to be something that causes you to use it. I don't think there's a cadre of storch pilots flying around every front field looking for GVs and, as bozon pointed out, there should be some way to differentiate whether the base is flashing from vehicle or air activity.
Regards,
Hammer
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But there has to be something that causes you to use it. I don't think there's a cadre of storch pilots flying around every front field looking for GVs and, as bozon pointed out, there should be some way to differentiate whether the base is flashing from vehicle or air activity.
If there is dar in the sector and the base is flashing, con is likely an aircraft.
If there is no dar in the sector and the base is flashing, con is likely a GV.
(http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
And the Storch is a fun plane... one shouldn't need some silly dar bar to have a reason to fly it once in a while! :old:
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If there is dar in the sector and the base is flashing, con is likely an aircraft.
If there is no dar in the sector and the base is flashing, con is likely a GV.
Is that how that works? So, if there is dar in the sector and the base is flashing, there is no GV? How about a plane below radar but no GV? What does the dar bar show then? Bozon's idea would specifically address these situations and allow you to know there was a GV along with that single plane on radar or that it was probably a NOE raid coming into the base because no GVs had been identified by the multitude of other available intelligence on the battlefield.
Regards,
Hammer
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notice I said "likely."
I like it like it is.... you have warning that there is an enemy approaching because your base flashes.... it's up to you to discover the cause. Intel mah have said "tanks approaching" but how do you know how many there are?
Was there radar that detected and counted GVs in WWII? :old:
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Dar bar for GVs would only attract mudhens and I suspect that is exactly what this post is about.
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The tool to gather the info that a "vehicle dar" would show is already in-game....
-1 to another dar bar. Get in a plane and recon the area.
That means go into every base that is flashing, fly around with the stork, find out that there are only enemy planes around to make it flash. Land. Move to another base. No thank you, that is a waste of my precious playing time.
I like it like it is.... you have warning that there is an enemy approaching because your base flashes.... it's up to you to discover the cause. Intel mah have said "tanks approaching" but how do you know how many there are?
You like it as it is, I like it less. This is the Wishilist forum - I clicked and made a wish upon a shooting sta... oh wait, that was a P38 lawn darting into the ords bunker.
Was there radar that detected and counted GVs in WWII? :old:
Yes, it was installed in two locations in soldiers heads. Once enemy was detected, the human radars were able to count till they ran out of fingers. The information was transmitted in a wireless methods using a blanket and a bonfire. Later models discovered that they can count twice as many tanks when not wearing shoes.
See? I can pretend to be an idiot too.
Dar bar for GVs would only attract mudhens and I suspect that is exactly what this post is about.
What are mudhens? Like mad cows but with feathers?
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What are mudhens? Like mad cows but with feathers?
Mudhens are birds that like to lay their eggs in the mud. :aok
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Yes, it was installed in two locations in soldiers heads. Once enemy was detected, the human radars were able to count till they ran out of fingers. The information was transmitted in a wireless methods using a blanket and a bonfire. Later models discovered that they can count twice as many tanks when not wearing shoes.
See? I can pretend to be an idiot too.
:rofl
Touchy, aren't we?
I understand what you're saying.
You want more "intel."
I'll +1 this wish.
Maybe we can go even further and have the dar tell us in the tower the type of plane or GV, it's alt and heading, and the name and rank of the pilot or driver, too.
:banana:
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No.
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Was there radar that detected and counted GVs in WWII? :old:
The dar bar is not generated by Radar. IIRC, HTC has stated that the dar bar is based on the likelyhood of people on the ground reporting enemy aircraft. So it is not a exact count of how many enemy air craft ther are, but rather the number of reports of enemy aircraft that would be phoned in to HQ. IF so, a very similar mechanism would be very appropriate for GVs.
:aok
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After thinking about the gameplay implications of it...
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Maybe just a box instead of a growing bar. Box lit, GV in sector, not lit, no GVs in sector. Still can have a warning, but you won't know if its a single GV lighting the box as a diversion, or a force of 20 coming in to grab the base. It would give those looking for a GV fight a place to start any way.
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After thinking about the gameplay implications of it...
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Egg Zachary.
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I will gladly park my gv in a barn for a few hours at the edge of the threshold to keep the enemy on thier toes.
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Listening posts or observation posts.
In ww2 these would be logical if you are in a fixed position open to enemy ground attack like our Airfeild\GV Base\Port objects in the game.
Create a new object manned with AI troops. Salt 3-12 of them strategicly across the approches from the spawns. Enemy GV passes withing (x)yards the post phones in to the local tower. Only in that tower can you access a status display. From the main game map you see the usual feild or town flashing.
The post will only display that a vehical has passed it in say the last 2-3 minutes. Let the timer on the display change color as it ages. When a GV intialy passes, the display for that location will flash for say 15 seconds then settle to a solid color and age. If more than one vehical passes in short intervals like a raid, it keeps flashing untill the last passed out of range and starts the age timer. IF....a vehical stops in range and dosen't kill the post. AND the vehical sit's there past the age timer. THEN the post won't phone home until the vehical starts moving again starting a new timer.
Leave out what direction the GV was traveling. Might be fun to send jeeps off to find all of the posts and get them flashing to confuse the tower or just destroy them.
If you are in the tower you can access the current status of all listening posts. The posts are destroyable objects like auto ack with a similar rebuild time and response to base resupply. If destroyed, in the tower you will get an indication of this. Now the ord porkers have something else to pork to confuse the tower lurkers on the status of a GV assault.
I can see it now.
NOE GV assult on a town rushes in to kill eveything. Something big keeps taking out all the T34 and wirbles from the town. Hey George how did they see us?? I thought this was an NOE raid. They?? NOE??? You mean that TigerII killing us???? Yeah there Tiger, not werTiger.....Hey!!, did you remember to kill the listening posts?? I thought you killed them....Douh!!!!! :huh
All this aside. We have sound, Storch, IL2, Ju87-G2 to help us find GV. Why not ask for an observation tower high enough to use binoculars with zoom like the 88's to look all the way to the spawns? If I were the base commander I'd at least have one guy with binoculars stationed up in the radar tower knowing I could be over run by GV at any time.
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You can use F5 view while in the tower at any base. Just pan around the base and you see all you need.
I keep seeing guys spawning GVs over and over right in front of an enemy camping the hangar and then asking where the tank is.
A couple of seconds of looking from the tower is worth not losing 11 tanks in a row to the same guy.
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Most of the posts here miss the main point - To find where a large GV battle is happening on the map.
This suggestions was never about spotting the location of GVs, or their exact numbers. The general question it is supposed to help answering is "which base should I go to", not what to do when he ".move XXX" there. Think about it this way:
1. a player logs in and wants to go tank-busting in a Tiger or a Stuka/IL2. What base should he go to?
2. a land-grabber wants to defend his chess-piece bases. Which bases are under a serious attack?
Currently, there is no way to know, except waiting for someone to shout HELP on country channel, or go from base to base and spot.
We have the sector bar for planes. We know exactly how it works and its effect on gameplay. Why should it play out any differently for GVs? The sector bar allows me to find a fight in planes - I just fly towards the biggest red bar I can find. When HQ it hit and I do not know where to find a fight, I just log out.
The sad reality of AH is that this game is no longer focused on the air war. In the past, GV was a side show and I could not care less where they were playing. This is no longer the case. Often, I see 80 players logged in in each country and there are almost no dogfights happening, because half the players are in GVs, 1/4 are AFK, and out of the remaining 1/4, a good number are the pork and run/aurger kind that actively try to avoid any fight. If this is the case, at least give me the tool to find where should I go to do close air support.
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Green Text.
Good Morning GVers. I want to bring you supplies and drop bombs on the Tiger Twoooosss for youooooooo.........
Who needs supplies right now??
Like waving a bloody hand in front of a vampire.
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I don't really see why it is a problem. We have the tools to find a fight against aircraft, why not GV's?
Wiley.
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I don't really see why it is a problem. We have the tools to find a fight against aircraft, why not GV's?
Wiley.
Tanks are very different from planes in many ways. particuarly in their movement across the map.
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It's would be easier to find gv fights if they actually approached a field in attack.
As it is now, you only have to F5 from tower and you will most likely see the 17 guys who let the m3 through and no longer have a safe to land thier spawn kills.
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Tanks are very different from planes in many ways. particuarly in their movement across the map.
I guess what I'm not seeing is, why would an "enemy in this grid" indicator be a bad thing?
Wiley.
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I guess what I'm not seeing is, why would an "enemy in this grid" indicator be a bad thing?
Plane movements across the map, and thus across the grids are much more dynamic. In this context, GVs are absolutely static. With a plane, as long as it's not in the base dar circle, it could be almost anywhere at in a 25x25 mile square, at any altitude. The moment you see a gv 'dar' box apprearing on a grid, you do absolutely know where the con is within a few thousand feet radius. It's just a big "bomb me" sign appearing on the map the map the moment someone spawns, you could also enable enemy GV dot's on the map with an effect not much bigger.
This difference in movement between planes and GVs is also the reason why they are treated differently in other ways as well: That's why GVs have tele spawns, that's why GV's have much different requirements for a safe 'landing', and (almost on topic) that's why the base warning range is much smaller for Gv's as well.
And plane darbar also isn't just "spotters". It's a generic representation of many things, including long range radar detection - or does somebody really think you had spotters all over the enemy country reporting home?
Furthermore does nobody thinks anymore that having a bit "fog of war" can actually be fun? Base radar is down, base or town are flashing - NOE (yes, they still happen, fortunately) or a GV inbound? What is more likely? Is there GV spawn at all? Let's find out! Or is that too much uncertainty and excitement? Maybe we could increase dot dar all over the map, with contact type and altitude given as well /rant ;)
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Wow, that escalated quickly. ;)
Reasonable points. I hereby label it a Bad Ideatm.
Wiley.
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1am-4am PST Bozon is correct about finding something to fight.
All over the map bases are flashing with a single red darbar box or just the feild\town flashing. One night I jumped through about 12 towers out of curiosity. A few lone bomber boxes milk running, couple of solo jabo milk running, a few storch acrobats fiddleing around, and lots of single GV thinking they were being sneeky along with the ever present ubiquitous camped GV bases lobbing rounds at distance. No one seeking Combat other than about 5 or 6 guys furballing if you were lucky to be in one of the two countries participating. Kind of gives credence to doing something about country switch time to address non US prime time off hours.
We turning into WoT during the off hours from what I can see lately.
It would be great for your score if you could switch once every 60min so you could carpet bomb the tanks with a few freinds in LancStukas. Bet WoT don't got that!!
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Plane movements across the map, and thus across the grids are much more dynamic. In this context, GVs are absolutely static. With a plane, as long as it's not in the base dar circle, it could be almost anywhere at in a 25x25 mile square, at any altitude. The moment you see a gv 'dar' box apprearing on a grid, you do absolutely know where the con is within a few thousand feet radius. It's just a big "bomb me" sign appearing on the map the map the moment someone spawns, you could also enable enemy GV dot's on the map with an effect not much bigger.
All distances are scaled down when it comes to GV. They are much more difficult to spot from the air than planes. Beyond the very short icon range, they can also hide in buildings and under trees. Just sitting next to a building makes them invisible from a wide solid angle. Many bases have more than one spawn point next to them and unless you started searching very shortly after they spawned, they can be quite far from the spawn. Friggin flaks often surprise me when I fly low looking for GVs.
The dar bar is no needed to hunt the single GV. The single GV is uninteresting for me. The dar bar is needed in order to identify a major ground battle that is developing. Hording is bad enough - hording when the other country does not even know that there is a horde is worse.
Furthermore does nobody thinks anymore that having a bit "fog of war" can actually be fun? Base radar is down, base or town are flashing - NOE (yes, they still happen, fortunately) or a GV inbound? What is more likely? Is there GV spawn at all? Let's find out! Or is that too much uncertainty and excitement? Maybe we could increase dot dar all over the map, with contact type and altitude given as well /rant ;)
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But there has to be something that causes you to use it. I don't think there's a cadre of storch pilots flying around every front field looking for GVs and, as bozon pointed out, there should be some way to differentiate whether the base is flashing from vehicle or air activity.
Regards,
Hammer
Giving perks for time flown in storch maybe. Newbs who dont have the skill to rack up perks using fighters could earn their perks this way. I have always thought that aircraft should have the ability to "mark" an enemy unit in a way that shows up on the map.
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with the icon reduction and the increase in GV usage to capture all of our bases I say +1 to this idea,
A simple >5 >10 >15
so when a bunch of guys are sitting around at lets say v85 spawn waiting on some poor schmuck to spawn for him to have 10 shells launched at him in unison (even dare I say some from behind) he can instead look at the map and see that he doesn't want no part of it.
If the attack is <5 GV's it does not show as is apart from the flash.
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Since the darbar gives a very rough idea of the number of cons and freindlies in a sector. I doubt it would be very hard to add another bar, say two pixels wide to give a rough idea of GV activity in a sector, or active from each spawn. The flashing town kinda gives away that an enemy GV is in range of the town so you just fired up a flare anyway if anyone is looking. Just like a flashing feild with a BIG RED BAR gives away that aircraft are in the radar ring to promote combat.
Most of the time when I check out a flashing town after prime time it's a single GV. I can see Bozon's point during after hours that he want's to go where the fight is and not where a teenybopper is trying to get lucky by himself with his popgun. This game is about promoting Combat. So if everyone can see the same growing GV darbar, you will get Combat instead of 10 guys sneaking around avoiding a fight. You cannot be everywhere, and groups rely on that to avoid having to fight.
As for a GV darbar screwing the element of surprise. FLASHING TOWN as soon as you spawn your GV assult. Just like flashing feild as soon as the NOE hits the ring and growing darbar as soon as they pop. It promotes combat. Otherwise if we didn't have flashing feilds and darbar most players would opt for chicken suits and capturing feilds against ZERO defenders. OOPSIES zero combat. I paid $14.95 for this crapola and it Offends meee to dieeeee..........I will sneak around so you cannot Offennddd meeee. ScAreuoooww your Frikken Combbatttttt and the horse you rode in on.......
Remember the vTards?? We bad, We bad, we can NOE surprise the farthest away feild from any combat with 60 guys and take it becasue...NO Body Is Home To Defend It From 60 Guys in Chicken Suits.
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I just dont see how this is any kind of improvement over a flashing town or base.
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This would dumb the game even more like capture the flag did
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At least you would have the option to find the biggest number of GV's to fight. Or donn your Super Chicken suit and single handedly attack the farthest empty base from all the action on the map. It's not like HiTech would enable dots to the ground level to show you each and every GV's position. Just where to go if you want to fight other tanks.
During prime time you get the equivalent to the GVDAR from watching green text or even asking on green text where the GV's are. So GVDAR would be an AI recon report like forward scouts and listening posts phoned in tank positions after DDay. Our radar is an AI observer corp phoning in to update our plotting map in effect.
It's kind of overkill for prime time with the amounts of free intel for the asking. But, then the game changes personality during the off Prime time Bozon logs in. You have players scattered all across the map avoiding combat. I suspect he wants GVDAR not for defence but, to find where his country is engaged with the largest number of GV in one area to maximise his time online. Or at least have the odds of the lone GV not being a guy in a wirbel at the spawn suckering a low level recon flight. It's better odds if it's multiple GV some are tanks who want to fight.
GVDAR or no GVDAR, GV are going to get bombed and shot at once it's evident they are flashing a base. The base flashing thingy is gamey in reality if you are talking about arcadiness. And thats the rub. Do you want combat or the illusion that sneaking around in a kiddy combat game is some kind of strategy while the map is flashing and whailing away that you are in range of a base?
Bozon makes a very good point. What are you paying $14.95 to HTC to do with your very precious short playing time in a Combat game? Avoid combat until you can shoot the other guy in the back when he's afk in the jon? Poor Bozon, he can't even find the other guy to shoot in the back many times during his hours online. Many of this audience play during Prime time from which refrence are throwing Bozon under a bus.