Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Noir on March 13, 2013, 08:22:40 AM
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Should the n1K use its flaps to beat the spit in a turnfight? What is its corner speed?
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I'm no N1K or spit expert, but a post by BigRat sticks out in my head right now.
In another help thread, he made mention about the N1K being a close match to the F4U's in turning ability. If that's the case, the N1K probably can't win a turnfight unless the Spit makes a big mistake. I know when I flew the F4U a lot, if I was actually winning angles against a spit, it was because the spit had no idea what he was doing.
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The wiki page states that with flaps the n1k should turn inside a spit9, but is quite vague about the number of notches and speeds...
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Talk to 2Cmex about N1K2 and flaps. He has gotten very good lately with when and how to use the flaps. Often 7-8 kills landed each sorte now.
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Talk to 2Cmex about N1K2 and flaps. He has gotten very good lately with when and how to use the flaps. Often 7-8 kills landed each sorte now.
I agree, one of the best I have seen in N1k :aok
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I'm not 2cmex, and I'm not saying I'm an expert in the particular ride, but I have landed scores of 8+ sorties in the LWA with this plane.
IMO the spit stalls better and the guns do more damage. The split flaps on the N1K2 suck. Avoid them except in the most dire of situations. You have possibly more durability and much higher ammo count, so take every shot you can, spray and pray against a spit.
I would say perhaps they're evenly matched but the spit is going to be easier to achieve victory in.
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:huh :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh ou guys use flaps? :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :joystick: :joystick: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :joystick: :joystick: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :joystick: :joystick:
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Not in a N1k2 :aok
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I flew it a bit more yesterday, and It looked like dumping the flaps as soon as I could gave me an edge in the turnfight...also according to http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php the spit16 beats the N1K in turn radius without flaps, but the N1K wins with flaps. Too bad the site doesn't list the degrees/sec.
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The split flaps on the N1K2 suck.
They're not split flaps, they're Fowler flaps and were designed to be used in combat, hence the automatic deployment.
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They're not split flaps, they're Fowler flaps and were designed to be used in combat, hence the automatic deployment.
D'oh, you're quite right! They are NOT split flaps! My bad.
They still suck! :noid :rofl :aok
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Nuke, please, dont listen to Krusty now. Even though i havent spent much time in either of them... still, my observations:
-both planes without flaps, the spit (any) easily turns inside the niki. An other thing is, while the spit gains a lot of turn radius by using the flaps, its turn rate decreases drastically, from ~15.5 seconds per circle to ~17.5-18 second. The niki does a circle in 16.8-17 seconds without flaps and in ~ 17.5 second by using them. Their turn radius is roughly the same in both cases. So in a flat turn, the spit should keep his energy, without flaps it easily beats the niki.
-in a scissoring dogfight, the japaneese plane has a very minor turn radius and turn rate advantage, but also some disadvantage in the roll rate - might be more difficult to reverse at the top. And it doesnt matter which plane you fly, always use full flaps in a low speed (vertical-style) rolling scissors situation, as the turn radius and stall speed counts a lot more here than the raw turn rate.
After all, yes, the niki should definiately use its flaps.
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thanks deb for the input, on top of the barell roll the n1k should be able to use the snap rolls to mitigate the roll disadvantage not unlike the p47
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IMO the spit stalls better and the guns do more damage.
They have better ballistics and on a per round basis the Hispano Mk II do slightly more than the Type 99 Model IIs, but the N1K2-J carries four of the later with nearly twice the ammo load per gun to the Spit's two Hispanos.
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Don't listen to debrody... If you're forcing yourself to only fight in rolling scissors against spits you lose.
If the only time to use flaps in the N1K2 is rolling scissors, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Then boring your other foot into falling off.
The resons a spit will win against a n1k2 is that the N1K2 is much more sluggish in acceleration. It's not as light nor as responsive at low stall speeds. It doesn't roll nearly as well. In overall handling it loses. While you may get a 1-in-a-million chance that the spit enters a turn fight with you at the precise milisecond and precise speed and position to allow you to use full flaps to out-turn it (assuming the spitfire only flies a perfect flat circle, allowing you to out-turn it) you might be able to out-turn it.
The reality is this is a test condition and I haven't ever run into it in dynamic dogfights. Rolling scissors is also a test condition used to measure e-peen in the DA. Outside of a couple of rolls if somebody doesn't break off, both are losers. Both pilots locking themselves into rolling scissors when it clearly does nothing to end or improve the fight, means both pilots are not thinking smart. It's like a luftberry where both planes have the exact same rate and radius of turn, and they sit there looking at each other, waiting and waiting til they close the gap -- only they never do because they lock themselves into a single plan of action.
The N1K2 is a pretty lethal plane, but IMO the spits hold just about all the cards.
Karnak: Yes the N1K2 has twice the guns, but there's something about them... I get a single ping snapshot from a spit and stuff falls off... I get a solid 1-second multi-ping burst from all 4 guns on the N1K2 and the target keeps flying. Not so much rubber bullets as just weak rounds. Subjective, I know, but I find I run through a LOT more ammo per kill in the N1K2 than when I use hispanos.
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Huh. My experience is that they hit very hard. Out of memory, against structures, the Hispano is something like 4.10 or 4.15lbs and the Type 99 Model II is 3.90 or 3.95lbs. The MG151/20 is 3.56lbs and the Ho-5 20mm is 3.40lbs. That matches up well with my experience with them against airplanes.
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Don't listen to debrody... If you're forcing yourself to only fight in rolling scissors against spits you lose.
Good sir... back in the day, when i was a 109 pilot, i could win every rolling scissors against spits, except against the very best pilots. Now, the top niki flyers could always wipe me out.
I gave exact nummbers - you are only rising you fantasy, experimental stuff.
Pity we couldnt duel. That would have clearly decided who is right and who is just a mouthpiece. Greetings, best wishes, bye.
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I fly the N1K very similiar to a Hog in a close quarters fight. I consider it's flaps to be good, it's a more honest stalling aircraft then the F4U. It's an easy to fly and quite lethal aircraft. I never had an issue in a rolling fight with one, thought it was quite good at it myself. This is coming from a hog guy, so this should have some weight, as I'm often trying for a rolling fight (hog's bread and butter at close range). The N1K's main disadvantages are top end speed, diving ability (albeit it's not bad, it's not a blue plane), and high alt performance. At mid to low alts, it should be respected, especially if you find yourself co-E with one.
Now against a Spit, well depends on which Spit. Tactics vs a Spit V are different then a Spit XVI. Again co-E, at low to mid alt, I wouldn't feel disadvantaged in the N1K vs any of the Spit series.
:salute
BigRat
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it is a good match up. 2cmex and busa are the only two niki pilots I can think of that have really got my spit8 thinking dang he busting that thing around. wingzero was up there but I always seemed to have his number whatever he did.
so on that basis it is entirely possible that when slow with flaps going an aggressive pilot should be able to kill most spitfire pilots in a slow turnfight.
I just don't like it's rolling capabilities in the scissors as debrody alludes to. It feels very sluggish like the F4U when out of speed.
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Good sir... back in the day, when i was a 109 pilot, i could win every rolling scissors against spits, except against the very best pilots. Now, the top niki flyers could always wipe me out.
I gave exact nummbers - you are only rising you fantasy, experimental stuff.
Pity we couldnt duel. That would have clearly decided who is right and who is just a mouthpiece. Greetings, best wishes, bye.
Oh, please... Insert oldrolleyes here. Your past comments to me have been vile and I have no respect for you, so I would never spend time with you in the DA. Besides that, I find the DA to be the dullest most boring type of fighting, where 99.99999999999999999999% of all fighting forces the fight specifically into rolling scissors that attempt to do nothing but rolling scissors until you die of boredom 10 minutes later. If/when I DA it's with folks I like or respect and to do something specific (not just freestyle rolling scissors).
Perpetual rolling scissors is not a valid fighting style in the fluid MA environment. If you do 1 or 2 rolling scissors and get an kill, congrats! You pulled a move that caught the other guy out of position! If you do it for 10 minutes and neither gains position, you're simply not thinking. In the MA you break off, reposition, re-engage. Hell, in the MA you rarely get the perfect sterile setup that the DA gives you to even enter perpetuating rolling scissors.
I applaud your ability to kill spits in 109s by using their raw engine power. That doesn't have much to do with N1K2s. Neither does rolling scissors dictate a fighter's overall potential or ability.
Your attempt to discredit me only discredits yourself. Your insults only show your true nature.
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Sorry Krusty, but you have no credibility. :old:
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Good Sir, Krusty, how could a 109 G6 have more raw engine power than any spit except the 1 and 5?
After this, your argument is pointless. You have not seen me flying, you have no idea what i was doing.
One thing i can agree with: MA isnt about close combat, in most of the time. But Nuke asked that, i just tryed to share my very limited experience with him.
Edit: DA and rolling scissors isnt fun? Maybe not for you, but take a look at this:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=522h8uu3f4bd1oiif53gifp994&topic=329313.0
and tell me it isnt...
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The only Spit I have trouble fighting with the Niki is a Spit V, flown by someone who knows what they are doing. Low and slow I usually out turn all the other Spits unless I am full of fuel. When turning with a Spit, flaps and throttle are a must.
Fred
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The N1K belongs to a certain category of planes I consider as flying turrets. The Hurri2C also comes to mind. These planes can at any moment point in any direction in the sky and lob 4x20mm at you. With a small turning radius and low stall speeds they appear to a fast fighter as almost stationary, rotating in place to point at you. 90% of the people who fly them, fly them as "point and click" - pointing towards the red icon and pulling the trigger, regardless of aspect or direction, often resulting in a HO if given the brief moment to rotate the turret.
I thus avoid them as much as possible unless they are looking the other way. At least they are "slow" though the Mosquito VI will not escape a N1K without a prolonged use of WEP.
2cmex killed me in his N1K. He did not make me think "OMG look at what N1K can do!", instead he made me go "OMG someone in a N1K knows what he is doing!". I still consider Spits to be a bigger threat, given both are usually not well flown.
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2cmex is much less dangerous once he cant rope-a-dope. Just saying.
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It seems to me the NiK2 can hold higher angles of attack than the spit at lower speeds. Also, the tail does not get washed out like an F4U. Nuke, generally when I run into spits, I let them blow their energy, then use the ability of the NiK2 to bleed E coupled with the fowler flaps to ease in behind them. It has a great rudder and between getting sideways and dropping flaps at the same time, seems to work. That is if the guy pulls a tight turn. The key as you know in most planes is throttle management and finding that sweet spot where you have enough airflow to keep your controls responsive.
As far as the rope, that is the NiK2's best move against a less experienced pilot. Because the engine is good and the flaps are great, as other airplanes start to get unmanageable in the vert, you still have great control authority.
I try to run leave the flaps in until I either need to bleed E or I need the extra lift to bring the plane around the top of a loop at low speeds.
I love the plane, it is generally my #1 ride, emergency orange of course.
disclaimer*** for all you keyboard fighter jocks... these are descriptions, to the best of my ability to articulate what I do.....
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2cmex is much less dangerous once he cant rope-a-dope. Just saying.
If that is his plane's strong set then why can't he do it? It is like telling a spit pilot not to turn lol..
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If that is his plane's strong set then why can't he do it? It is like telling a spit pilot not to turn lol..
My dear friend, like the niki cant completely outmaneuver a 109G in every single aspect? For me, playing for that much safety in a way superior ride, is just the total lack of fantasy.
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My dear friend, like the niki cant completely outmaneuver a 109G in every single aspect? For me, playing for that much safety in a way superior ride, is just the total lack of fantasy.
Friend, do not put yourself in the position to be rope a doped as you call it.. Conserve a little more E while you are turning with him and follow him up into the climb and there you have it.
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2cmex is much less dangerous once he cant rope-a-dope. Just saying.
If you think that's his only set skills your sadly mistaken. He's as good as any in anything. :salute
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If you think that's his only set skills your sadly mistaken. He's as good as any in anything. :salute
Im not any good. but... Have you ever fought me? He did. And he was flying quite logical, avoiding the close combat.
Im getting egoistic again. Sorry.
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ease down ladies, thanks for the input. :old:
I did get much better results by deploying a couple notches of flaps as soon as I could in the turn, killing pretty much any unwary spit in a couple turns :)
I still have to mind some habits taken while flying US iron, I always try to fight nose down to increase the speed of the combat and use the flaps to surprise the nmy, and that just doesn't work in the niki
the bnz capabilities are not so bad tho! it retains E quite well, climbs good, and maintains elevator authority at very high speeds
I like it, its a better plane than the 51 to get a lot of kills on your own.
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the bnz capabilities are not so bad tho!
Noob! :banana:
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Noob! :banana:
I knew you were there you backseat troller!!!
16 kills / hour how's that???
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btw I'd love a DA/TA session some day, but I can't during the week :(
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I knew you were there you backseat troller!!!
16 kills / hour how's that???
You have a whole hour to play? Decadent noob! :banana:
btw I'd love a DA/TA session some day, but I can't during the week :(
I'm not flying much at the moment, busy with school. But if I can get back and get the rust off you're on. :cheers: