Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Mano on April 07, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
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Imagine you are shut down........know an enemy is near.......and he is shut down as well.
He turns his turret and you learn his location. You should be able hear a turret within 1/4 or 1/2 the distance of
A running engine. I think the current distance for hearing an engine is 3.5k.
I think this feature would add to the stealth experience in tanks.....and hopefully not be
Expensive to implement.
:salute
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Without looking into this, how did our tanks turrets turn? I'm sure some are hand cranked, some are hydraulic and some electric (all pure speculation) Turning the engine off would deprive an hydraulic pump of its power as it would also deplete a charge in a battery. Is turning off your engine and operating a turret even feasible?
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Um, no. You honestly think you could hear another tank's turret being turned from hundreds of yards away?
The gaminess of turning your own sounds down/off in order to hear other players is already ridiculous.
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OK I just looked, on page 24 of Tiger Tanks At War it states that the turret was was hydraulically traversed while fine aiming was done with a handwheel. How is it we have Tiger tanks turning off their engine and still having hydraulic pressure to turn their turret?
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The engine drove front sprockets, which were mounted quite low. The Krupp-designed eleven-tonne turret had a hydraulic motor whose pump was powered by mechanical drive from the engine. A full rotation took about a minute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
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OK I just looked, on page 24 of Tiger Tanks At War it states that the turret was was hydraulically traversed while fine aiming was done with a handwheel. How is it we have Tiger tanks turning off their engine and still having hydraulic pressure to turn their turret?
Perhaps they had electric pumps. The airplanes I flew had electric pumps.
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id rather have two speeds for all turrets. one with the engine and its turret motor and one for the hand crank of the poor tank crew.
ie engine on... fast turret.... engine off slow turret.
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id rather have two speeds for all turrets. one with the engine and its turret motor and one for the hand crank of the poor tank crew.
ie engine on... fast turret.... engine off slow turret.
It would make a lot more sense to have it that way.
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Perhaps they had electric pumps. The airplanes I flew had electric pumps.
The engine drove front sprockets, which were mounted quite low. The Krupp-designed eleven-tonne turret had a hydraulic motor whose pump was powered by mechanical drive from the engine. A full rotation took about a minute.
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id rather have two speeds for all turrets. one with the engine and its turret motor and one for the hand crank of the poor tank crew.
ie engine on... fast turret.... engine off slow turret.
That would be the best combination of realism and gameplay---Tiger was pretty unique, as the actual tracks were turned by a generator. Pretty sure most other tanks had to turn a hand crank. Would help a bit trying to deal with campers
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That would be the best combination of realism and gameplay---Tiger was pretty unique, as the actual tracks were turned by a generator. Pretty sure most other tanks had to turn a hand crank. Would help a bit trying to deal with campers
Going from memory here, but the Pzr III and older/smaller tanks used a hand crank and the Pzr IV and later tanks had a powered traverse. Of noteworthy mention is the last version of the Pzr IV, it did NOT have a powered traverse. The most logical reason was the lack of resources I'll bet.
Otherwise, the early we look in WWII the more likely a tank had manual turret traverse and the later we look the more likely it had powered traverse, at least in German and Soviet tanks.
I just checked and confirmed my hunch. The British and the US had powered traverse from day 1. Even the light tank M3 Stuart and Cruiser Mk I, and the medium tank Grant/Lee M3 tank had hydrolic powered traverse. Oh, and the Japanese had all hand cranks.
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Does 'power' equal engine running?
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I believe I read that in the T34 a couple of locking pins were released and the turret was slewed roughly manually just by pushing on it (or, perhaps, the gun). Then the pins were locked and fine (still manual) control was via a crank. Late versions of the T34/85 had electric turret slewing. The T34 certainly didn't need the engine running to turn the turret and, except on the late version electric drive, I suspect it would be pretty quiet.
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Maybe I opened a can of worms by not doing my homework first, but I would like to hear enemy turrets turning within the appropriate distance. If certain tanks in AH could not turn their turrets with the engine off, we can ask the programmers to add this feature to the game, if it can be done. We all want as much realism as possible.
Btw....I turned my turret sound really low so I could hear enemy tanks coming. :D :D he he
I use Rangers sound pack and I can identify what tank is coming, with he exception of the Panther and Panzer F.
Different tanks seem to have different turret sounds.
:salute
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Before you jump to conclusions I think you should actually research the subject. Some of the ideas in this thread are very poorly conceived and are in stark contrast to reality.
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AFAIK, the Ferdinand (Porsche Tiger) had the Diesel/Electric drive, like a Locomotive..
The Henchel Tiger, used a Hydramatic transmission and steering gear, including pivot steer..
I always assumed that the Tiger used a Hydraulic Motor for Turret Traverse, but I thought
it was powered by an electric pump.. Engine driven pump only??? That is new info to me..
Need confirmation on that.. If true, that could change gameplay..
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My point in saying you should research this comes from the way HTC has decided to portray tanks altogether. If you find one example that will certainly pork "berm camping," then you will find other examples that will not. So, unless HTC decides to model all tanks realistically as their individual systems were originally, then the tanks should probably remain just as they are. The idea being that every tank is just like the others for each operator.
Now, in detail, the Tiger II I know has a hydraulic turret that is powered from the engine. Turret speed is then tied directly to engine RPM. At high RPM the turret will rotate 360 degrees in ten seconds. At idle it takes a lot longer.
This same system is in place on the one vehicle you do not want to see operate at high RPM, the Wirbelwind.
So, be careful what you wish for.
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So, be careful what you wish for.
If that's how it was so be it, imagine the effects of inertia on a tiger II turret doing a full 360* rotation in 10 seconds.
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You are ignoring the fact that this wish is unprecedented. None of the aircraft in this game have their specific systems portrayed to the level of detail you wish in tanks. It would redefine AH from a survey simulation to a study simulation, and the majority of noobs would be lost on day one. That, and you are ignoring the fact that HTC decided to move away from modeling tanks with details such as drivers positions, and operator controlled throttle levels, brakes, and gear shifts.
I would love it if the aircraft had more detail, myself. Especially, I would love to see the landing gear times adjusted to real world times. I've been wishing for it for some time with no result.
This wish is going no where.
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You make some good points Chalenge. I definitely opened a can of worms. :D
btw......great job defending that v base with the Tiger 2 the other night.
When you pivoted the front armor towards me.....all I could do was say Oh shhhhhh(word deleted), no way
I'm gonna back out in time <BOOM> LOL I had at least 5 hits to your flank, but I was too far away for
my HVAP to be effective.
:salute
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Thank you. I saw where the shot was coming from immediately, but seeing through those trees was impossible. That's when I moved out past them and got you. I was reluctant to do it because I had already called out "anchor," and I knew there was an M3 on the way. He didn't make it obviously.
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HTC has always implemented 'realism' on a case by case basis. Years ago, I could dive through a vulchfest at a friendly base at 400, flare out, and belly in, getting a safe landing. GV's used to show an icon to enemy planes at 6k....now it's 3k. Tanks used to be able to fire from inside buildings.....IL2's used to have F3 view (which, of COURSE, no one used) wirby turret was greatly slowed v down....puffy ack now targets buffs over fighters. Though the original post was about turret NOISE, making the turret spin slower with the engine off is not a pie-in-the-sky thing
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You miss the whole point bj. . . :noid
Which system are you going to implement when it comes to turrets? The T34 system? The Tiger II? How about the M4? . . .because no matter which system you use a mud driver is going to come along and say "well that's not how it worked on the tank I drive" and then you're right back where you started.
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You will first need to demonstrate that WWII tanks typically located each other by sound, as if they were submarines. The historical reality that I recall (in 40-plus years of reading military history) is that WWII tanks couldn't hear much because their engines were usually on. Turning the engine off in a tactical environment was apparently not considered to be a good idea. The fact that we can do this in the game may add gameplay interest, but it doesn't seem to be very realistic. In turn, the latter point mitigates against HTC adding more detail in this area.
MH
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You miss the whole point bj. . . :noid
Which system are you going to implement when it comes to turrets? The T34 system? The Tiger II? How about the M4? . . .because no matter which system you use a mud driver is going to come along and say "well that's not how it worked on the tank I drive" and then you're right back where you started.
Aucontraire, my sitting-on-the-concrete-at-a-Vbase-in-a-Tiger2-friend.....all tanks have unique characteristics...gunsight... .speed....ability to pivot....the action of the turret with engine off would be unique to the tank, like those items. (having said that, I'd be highly surprised if HT went and did it)
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You are ignoring the fact that this wish is unprecedented.
This wish is going no where.
I didn't wish for anything, the OP made me think about what makes noise when a turret turns. I concluded that it would be an hydraulic pump, driven by the tanks engine in a lot of cases. I don't expect it to be implemented because it would drastically change the GV game that everyone is used to.
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I spent 22 of my 31 years of U.S. Army service as a Tank Crewman and Officer. I have operated everything from an M-47 to an M1IP and I can tell you that if you are more than about 10 yards away from the tank when it rotates it's turret, there is nothing to hear. A well maintained turret drive produces a low purr or rumble that is hardly audible...there are no loud squeels or clanks unless something is seriously broken.
The loadest noise produced in the turret is the sound of the electrically driven hydralic pump motor cycling on and off periodically to replenish the pressure in the recuperator of the elevation mechanism. This noise only lasts a few seconds every couple of minutes depending upon how much the gun is being elevated or depressed. Again, you would have to be right next to the tank to hear it.
Since WW2 the U.S. and most of the rest of the world have been using electically driven hydraulic turret motors to move the turrets on their tanks. However, placing highly pressurized and flamable hydraulic fluid inside the turret is not a good idea. A study of the casualties produced during the tank battles of the Arab-Israeli wars has shown that burns caused by ruptured hydraulic systems caused most of the tank casualties on both sides.
This is why armored crewman in the western armies now wear nomex coveralls as their outer uniform, and also the reason that the U.S. Army chose a completely electrical (non-hydraulic) turret drive system for the M1 tank.
Here is a link to the Technical Manual for the turret drive system for the M3 Grant tank of WW2. I think it is probably fairly typical of the tanks of that era. The diagram on page 4, and the description of it's operation on page 5 do a good job of explaining how the system and it's manual backup works.
http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1750H_Hydraulic_Traversing_Mechanism_(Logansport)_for_Medium_Tank_M3_and_Modif ications_1943.pdf (http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1750H_Hydraulic_Traversing_Mechanism_(Logansport)_for_Medium_Tank_M3_and_Modifications_1943.pdf)
CptA
Steel on Target!
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Aucontraire, my sitting-on-the-concrete-at-a-Vbase-in-a-Tiger2-friend.....all tanks have unique characteristics...gunsight... .speed....ability to pivot....the action of the turret with engine off would be unique to the tank, like those items. (having said that, I'd be highly surprised if HT went and did it)
Thank you for completely (and ignorantly) agreeing with me.
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Thank you CptA. Not the response I wanted to hear. :D
But I know you are right.
The tanks in AH are modeled to the best realism possible within their sim engine parameters.
I really enjoy the GV fights and rarely up a plane. When tankers work together it really enhances the
Experience.
:salute
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Now, in detail, the Tiger II I know has a hydraulic turret that is powered from the engine. Turret speed is then tied directly to engine RPM. At high RPM the turret will rotate 360 degrees in ten seconds. At idle it takes a lot longer.
This same system is in place on the one vehicle you do not want to see operate at high RPM, the Wirbelwind.
So, be careful what you wish for.
Actually no, not in the serial production Wirbelwind.
Hydraulically operated turret was tested in the prototype but the production vehicles didn't have it.
Source: Nuts & Bolts Vol 13
AH used to have turret traverse rate that represented what could be achieved by the prototype. It was changed to what could be achieved with the hand-crank traversing mechanisim of the production vehicle and as such is currently more accurate representation of the operational vehicle.
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Thank you for completely (and ignorantly) agreeing with me.
Not sure from where you made that herculean, yet condescending leap of logic. The items I mentioned, while not addressing the obsolete O.P., are fairly easily coded, WOULD somewhat address camping, (which HT has shown an interest in affecting in the past), but would likely not be done, though NOT for the reasons you alluded to--more likely it's too minor an item to expend programmer resources upon
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Hardly, but thanks for agreeing yet again.
The reason it will not be done is (in addition to what you stated) because it would make each tank unique with respect to control. It would be as if HTC decided to suddenly tie the hydraulic bomber turrets to the number three engine (correct for some aircraft, but not others) so that if that engine is knocked out the turrets will not work.
Or the F4U so that if noob 67843 overcontrols and enters a spin to the left but does not correct in time (more than 1.5 turns) then the F4U crashes (also correct for that aircraft).
Or any plane that has electrical gun triggering if shot in the battery loses guns (any aircraft with the MK108).
The idea (I believe) is to keep it simple so that you don't have to know so much about the airplanes and vehicles to have fun.
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Actually no, not in the serial production Wirbelwind.
Hydraulically operated turret was tested in the prototype but the production vehicles didn't have it.
Source: Nuts & Bolts Vol 13
AH used to have turret traverse rate that represented what could be achieved by the prototype. It was changed to what could be achieved with the hand-crank traversing mechanisim of the production vehicle and as such is currently more accurate representation of the operational vehicle.
Depends what book you want to believe.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/113790510/1982-Gepard-The-History-of-German-Anti-Aircraft-Tanks
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/de46b015-549c-4878-9399-8f72132b18ba_zpse9c79b43.jpg)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274097.120.html
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I'm more inclined to trust Spielberger, anyway. Schiffer doesn't just publish anybody.
"Spielberger, a leading expert in the field of German military vehicles. . ." doesn't quite say it all. Not only did Walter J. Spielberger serve as an Elefant crew member, but he was also one of the design engineers of the Elefant project. He is considered by many to be the expert on German armor of the WWII period.
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Depends what book you want to believe.
One possible source regarding the hydraulic drive for serial vehicles are American Intelligence reports. The authors of Nuts & Bolts mention that they have incorrectly described how the flakvierling was connected to the turret.
At least Wirbelwind survivors depicted in the book don't have any hydraulic drive in their turrets. That is clear when looking at the pics. The turret is just attached to the flakvierling itself and turned with the flakvierling's own traversing mechanism by hand. The hand crank is vsible and animated in AH aswell, it's turning rate in relation to the turret is far too low though.
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At least Wirbelwind survivors depicted in the book don't have any hydraulic drive in their turrets. That is clear when looking at the pics. The turret is just attached to the flakvierling itself and turned with the flakvierling's own traversing mechanism by hand. The hand crank is vsible and animated in AH aswell, it's turning rate in relation to the turret is far too low though.
Very true the only two surviving Wirbles had only the hand crank. I would love to see the German handbook that Smokey23 talks about in that thread I hijacked.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/wirbelrotation_zps521c3a1a.jpg)
Can't help but think this might have the information that would put aside all doubt in regards to conflicting books. Since Smokey has not been on the BBS in over a year?
I can't find the document to date myself. :(
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Imagine you are shut down........know an enemy is near.......and he is shut down as well.
He turns his turret and you learn his location. You should be able hear a turret within 1/4 or 1/2 the distance of
A running engine. I think the current distance for hearing an engine is 3.5k.
I think this feature would add to the stealth experience in tanks.....and hopefully not be
Expensive to implement.
:salute
If you are shut down and an enemy gv is near and not running his engine to what purpose would this serve? If your line of sight/gun sight is obstructed(terrain, building), then,if given your wish, you must start your engine to move into a firing position and thereby negate your 'stealth' and positional advantage. I believe your wish is to more direct others to this 'stealthy tank' without exposing yourself or location, IMO. Given this, how would hearing a tank turret traverse add to the stealth experience in tanks? If you can hear it, not much 'stealth'! :bhead