Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: easymo on March 06, 2001, 01:36:00 PM
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I see this phrase all the time, on the various boards. They usually mean, lame bellybutton guns. And they knock AH, because the guns work. I wonder how HTC DID come up with the numbers? I would like some ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) for these discussions.
The chog gets a lot of whining. I don't fly it, but the effects of 4 20mm ripping through an aluminum airframe, would be self evident, it seems.
Also, I've been playing for years, and have downed thousands of planes. (something RL pilots would never have a chance to do.) Of course, I can hit something past 300 yards. Though I seldom try. In spite of this there are a lot of "he killed me at 700 yards" whines.
I think AH is very realistic. But wonder what gunnery setting, were, based on.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 03-06-2001).]
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They probably got their data from tests conducted during or after the war. I know recoil is based off known info for a given weapon, and those recoil effects are very well modeled. I love the gunnery here too; I don't have to blow 4,000 rounds of .30 cal to kill someone. Although that much racket from all the ping sounds will give you a headache. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you get REALLY bored you can figure your own recoil here:
www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/guns/recoil.htm (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/guns/recoil.htm)
www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/guns/recoil1.htm (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/guns/recoil1.htm)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/headbanger.gif)
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I had my raditor knocked out at d1.4 by a chog yesterday spraying hispano everywhere.
thats 1,400 yards - realistic??? might need to re-evaluate that claim.
I realise it was probably 1.0 or 1.1 on his FE - but thats still rediculous.
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Originally posted by Spatula:
I had my raditor knocked out at d1.4 by a chog yesterday spraying hispano everywhere.
thats 1,400 yards - realistic??? might need to re-evaluate that claim.
I realise it was probably 1.0 or 1.1 on his FE - but thats still rediculous.
Spat, I missed the link to the film, where is it?
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We need a record button that is based on the same algorithm used for the 88mm/127mm flak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That way it starts recording before the weirdness happens.
Btw Rip, taking nothing but ballistics into account, hitting the radiator or ducting past, say, 800 yards would have to be a pretty interesting shot -- or the person who gets hit would have to be inverted.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Bess
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Rip babey... I got pinged d1.2 the other night, took out my radiator and wounded me. Subsequently I was pinged at d1.4 as well.
The dirty rotten part of it was that it was done by a Yak with Mgs only! Twas RRAF, you can ask him bout it, plus I got film, if I get my lazy arse sorted I'll post it.
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Spat, I missed the link to the film, where is it?
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net lag figures into it somewhere.
I'd like to see anything outside of 600d become extremely inaccurate. Real or not, it'd make you fly and fight instead of spray and pray..
Eagler
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I find it interesting that when we get killed at d700+ by singlepingkillturbohispano and wonder if this happened in RL, the bookworms here love to say "ooh but looky here, hispano range is XXX (above 1.0), my source is yadadada written by dr.xcuse".
And yet what is not realized is that in RL pilots did NOT have laser rangefinding icons (heck, as far as I know not even the F-22 has such accurate ranging) and had to get in close, between 500 and 100 yds before they started shooting. Only BUFFS were common victims of long range cannon shots due to their obvious size and need to use cannon's longer range vs the buffs defensive armament.
But to say that 109's and Fw190's took d500+ shots at p51's/Yaks, that F4U's/P-40/P-38's took d700+ shots at Zekes as a rule is ludicrious. In AH it is seems to be a rule, especially with Hispano-bristling planes... the spits/chog and the n1k (n1k no hispano but damn close to it).
I would LOVE to see the laser rangers turned OFF for one week and see just how many long range kills you will get, heck in H2H when flying chog in iconless fights you VERY rarely see such long range shots, ive yet to see a d500+ shot... why? after d500 the con doesnt look much different if its at d500 or d800.. and d1.0+ could be at d1.6 and you still wouldnt notice a significant change in the AC's size.
Guns *may* be historically correct, but that gameplay BS billboard icon+laseranger turn AH into arcade. Its like Fighter Ace, but with harder FM.
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Hmmm what do Spatula and Vulcan have in common? Massive, other side of the the planet, net lag.
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Forget range for a minute (of course it's possible to get hits at extremely long range, I used to take the tail off 109s at 3,500ft back when I used to fly EAW online).
Think about the damage modeling.
Is it accurate? Personally I dont think so.
Someone explain to me how a panzer machine gun takes my wing off. Someone explain why a plane will explode with 1 ping, surely bits fly off but there's still a plane there. Explain why I can pump 10 AP shells into an Osty and watch as he calmly .EF's. Explain why it takes 4(!) HE shells to take out a fuel storage thingy. And 30 for a hanger is plain ridiculous.
Yeah ok, the Hispano......it's a 20mm cannon that can do serious damage. But how come 1 ping can cause death whereas 500 .303 rounds do bugger all?
This is the reason long range shots seem to be so effective.....it's not that long range shooting is too easy, it's that it only takes 1 hit.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Having your radiator taken out from 1.4, or 1.0 might be somewhat unbelievable if thats what someone intended to do.
Should any projectile just disappear after 400yds?
My dad once told me that when planes were fighting over them, that folks on the ground would take cover as rounds would be striking all over the place. Anyone who stood around watching the show was an idiot.
Regarding fleet flak, the only problem I have with it is the distance at which it opens up on you, and then stops when you drop below 3k. As to its accuracy, it seems to depend on if it hit me the last time I flew through it or not.
Weave
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So Ripsnort, I take it you believe Spat is lying?
Just to clarify, is it YOUR opinion that AH gunnery is a realistic simulation of the way it was in WW2?
If not, then why not?
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Originally posted by Spatula:
I had my raditor knocked out at d1.4 by a chog yesterday spraying hispano everywhere.
thats 1,400 yards - realistic??? might need to re-evaluate that claim.
I realise it was probably 1.0 or 1.1 on his FE - but thats still rediculous.
What that a hit from an 20mm cannon shell caused damage? Or that some of his (as you said) sprayed, ie, shotgun effect, rounds hit you at long range?
If you are in a cone of fire of someone who is spraying around there is a probability of n, where n>0 that you will be hit by something. This is equally true in real life as in Aces High.
These types of things will and do happen (and I'm sure did in real life too) they just shouldn't happen that often.
Now if you'd had a wing chewed off by a 1/2 second burst from that range it might be a a different story, although again probably not something that is *impossible* just extremely (extremely, extremely) improbable.
On the flip side people fly right through my gun stream at 300yds without a scratch. It's that probability thing again.
Sort of the same way the wing sometimes falls off my Yak when the guy behind me sneezes. Other times it absorbs 8-10 solid cannon hits without more than my pride taking damage =)
The latter case is, alas, rather rare =(
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Btw Rip, taking nothing but ballistics into account, hitting the radiator or ducting past, say, 800 yards would have to be a pretty interesting shot -- or the person who gets hit would have to be inverted.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or the damage model is starting to look a little old compared to the the rest of the code? =)
Not a whine, just an observation =)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Man, talk about a beaten-to-death horse. Ain't nothing much holding the bones on this carcass.
(http://www.concentric.net/~grzero/MONDO109.jpg)
This is the 109-G10 all tricked out. The "Nath" model it's called. I'm still looking for the F4U-1C shot "Vicious" had (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-06-2001).]
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ROFL westy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have mixed oppinions on the current gunnery model.
I'm prepping for my first .50 cal target experience this month. Some interesting notes so far indicate about an 18 foot drop over 1000 yards. It doesn't seem that occurs in AH. Then again.. the aircraft don't really seem to be 10 feet tall either. I suppose its possible with 6 .50's to hit something at that range, but it seems a like it should be more difficult. I hit a Yak at 1.0k this week, though I didn't kill him. I pinged him pretty badly.
As for what a bullet should do at that range... I saw a show on snipers this week. I love the History Channel. It concluded talking about how snipers were moving away from targetting personell and being traned to target equipment instead. These guys were hitting enemy equipment from 1500 yards away and doing significant damage. That was with .50 calibre rounds.
Basically, I don't have enough of a feel for the whole scene to call anything accurate or inaccurate. It seems the bullets should drop farther, but perhaps they do... 1000 yards is a long way to distinguish 18 feet (especially on the PC). The destructive force of the bullet does seem accurate to me.. even on the 20's. I do believe most games downplay the destructive aspect of the weapons in favor of prolonged gameplay. <S> to HTC for trying to stay true to the laws of physics.
AKDejaVu
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I have a very hard time believing anyone can get a consistant hit at d900 plus with a cannon round. I have actually tested this too in the trainging arena. I have film if anyone wants me to post it. Here is the scenario. My friend and I (deezcamp) were practicing dogfighting in the training arena. He was P38 i was the Chog (I know its a lame matchup, but he thought he was so good he said in a very cocky manner "fly whatever ya want, I'll kill ya anyway.) During the fighting I amanged to damage one of his engines. As soon as i did, he proceded to run straight and level for an extended period of time. At distances ranging from d800+ to d1.2k i busted out a ton of bullets at him (in the TA you have like 4000 rds). He didn't get a scratch til he got closer than 700.
Now i am not saying its impossible to hit at that range, but it is very rare. More likely is that these guys from New Zealand are flying against someone from the US or europe and on the other guys FE they are only 500-700 away.
As far as the damage model, i haven't figured that out yet. The other night I twice fought a lancaster and the first time shot about 450 hispano rds scoring a lot of hits but nothing fatal. The other time i shot 200 hispano rds, got a ton of hits and knocked out both of the guys engines (I verified this by asking the guy). THen the very next day, I bounced a lancaster, atacked him from a below, he turned and I fired one short burst from directly abeam. BOOM he exploded into a fiery ball. I looked at my ammo counter, only fifty rds gone. Now I don't know where i hit this guy, but how can you kill a bomber like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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yeah but I asked RRAF, and his difference in view was the same old d200, ie the d1.2 shot he saw as d1, and the d1.4 he saw as d1.2.
So nah nah nah (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by funked:
Hmmm what do Spatula and Vulcan have in common? Massive, other side of the the planet, net lag.
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I think the one ping explosion, is HTCs way of handling a pilot kill. When I hunt bombers, I always go for the cockpit. Because If I don't explode them, they keep right on hitting me, even though there wing has come off.
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LOL ! Westy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Is that the G-2, which finish people used ?
If icons is the main issue on long range gunning, how about icons off at range 1.5 and less. If I recall it right, camo(?) suggested it before. I think it's good idea.
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If icons is the main issue on long range gunning, how about icons off at range 1.5 and less. If I recall it right, camo(?) suggested it before. I think it's good idea.
Well this idea has been floating around since day 1 of Open Beta. Those of you who have been around since then may well recall that the very first posts in the 'Gameplay' forum after 29th September 1999 related to long-range gunnery. I've even asked HT in the arena whether we would ever see it, and the answer was a simple "No".
Hopefully the gunsight shaking predicted for 1.06 'may' put a stop to much of this nonsense.
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Spat, I missed the link to the film, where is it?
Just to clarify Rip... There aint a link to a film cause there aint one.
Yer, i know i shoulda been recording it, for sure. In hindsight all blunders can be avoided yadedahdedah.
But this aint a lie, exageration, or fabrication. This is what i saw from my FE plain and simple.
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Originally posted by funked:
Hmmm what do Spatula and Vulcan have in common? Massive, other side of the the planet, net lag.
Oh really? Thanks for the geography lesson. I'm well aware on lag and its effects and what my mean ping time is and how it effects the discrepancies that myself and the other pilot see. From my experience at those speeds (and i have done tests over roger wilco with wingmen) that he would have been around 400 yards closer to me than what it looked on my FE - i accept this, it isnt up for debate.
But take 400 yards off 1.4 and what do you get? circa 1000 yards. I know that there are recorded events when planes have been hit and killed in RL at these ranges, albeit very rarely. In AH it happens too often.
Yip jek, i hope the gun shake thing help aleviate this problem. The dispersion code helped as well, so it aint as bad as it was.
BTW my mean ping time is about 360ms. that aint that bad.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-07-2001).]
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With a little practice in leading, I'd imagine anyone could hit consistently past 900 yards, on anything that isn't constantly rolling (slight manuvers aren't a biggie)
I can usually land hits out to 1000 yards on my end (if the situation requires), with all but the LW/Russian cannons, albeit at the expense of ammo. But because there is so much rifle/HMG ammo in most planes it's not that big of loss.
- Bess
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Originally posted by Tac:
I would LOVE to see the laser rangers turned OFF for one week...after d500 the con doesnt look much different if its at d500 or d800.. and d1.0+ could be at d1.6 and you still wouldnt notice a significant change in the AC's size.
Guns *may* be historically correct, but that gameplay BS billboard icon+laseranger turn AH into arcade. Its like Fighter Ace, but with harder FM.
What do you base these absolute statements upon?
Did it ever occur to you that the way these planes look on a 19" monitor is extremely "historically incorrect?"
I'll grant that in RL you NEVER see icons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
OTOH, I don't think you appreciate just how much detail you CAN see on another aircraft on ranges that FAR exceed what you are talking about here.
Here's just one RL example. Many, many times I have watched the gear come down on a B737 at a MEASURED 2 miles away. This is to say that you can be watching a guy making a parallel approach in the clean configuration and then easily see the gear drop down and tell the gear is out.
Try that on any PC Flight Sim B-17...the gear/tires are about the same size...and see if you can tell if it's gear up or down.
Icons are there for a reason. Yes, they are a crutch, yes they could be adjusted.
But PC detail/definition does not BEGIN to compare with RL on a clear day.
Want no icons for realism? Fine. Give me a monitor and program that shows me RL detail. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Few days ago I was chaseing a bish fighter with c-hog. My fuel was low and the enemy was about thousand yard away from me flying straight trying to escape. I opened fire and saw some flashes. Because of low fuel and ammo I had to turn back to base...
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We played a lot of H2H with our Sqd and there the icons were turned off. There we all noticed that all long range shootouts were reduced almost to nil. And that was only because range estimates were made only by pilot. When I played AH online I could easily down pilots at d700 yrds with cannons and mg`s but when no icons at H2H I managed to kill only between d300 and below ( Of course I do not use tracers and I shoot only short bursts) =====> Conclusion :
If range info could be deleted the long range kills would be severely reduced and also the ammo-saving burst shooting would be useless d200 yrds and further on. People would always to really achieve solid 6 oc position before shooting and then shoot longer bursts. ====> closer to real life situations. This rock solid range information also makes high deflection long range shots too easy. I suggest that all of ye pilots try out shooting without icons so you see what I mean. That way you can whine HTC to drop out the range readout. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLV34 Jarski
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"Did it ever occur to you that the way these planes look on a 19" monitor is extremely "historically incorrect?"
Of course, you will never fit a fighter inside a monitor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . Yet if you zoom in and watch an enemy con without icons you will see it grows in size/shrinks according to distance. You can guess what a con's range is that way.
Toad, turn icons off when offline and try and guess ranges of the circling planes. Extend away from them, come in close, etc. When you guess, turn icons on and see if you got it right.
Below d600 your guesses will begin to be correct, beyond that you will have a hard time, missing by around 150 d's on each guess.
I fly a lot of H2H iconless, it REALLY makes this game shine. No game comes even CLOSE to AH without enemy icons (friendly icons needed to IFF though). The experience is exponentially boosted, each dogfight tests your ACM and in many cases leaves you shaking in your seat from the excitement.
No more long distance kills, no more n1ks locked into your 6 doing ufo manouvers... why? Because they have to keep track of you. The big red billboard is THE sole reason why people stay on your 6 after you do a hard manouver, they can re-acquire the target in a split second. It gives the pilot an omniscient view. The laser range finders are THE sole reason why long range spraying is so common and in fact, THE preffered way to kill from any angle if you have "the weapon".
AH is a great sim, being completely screwed by icons, which turn it into a harder FM Fighter Ace. IMO, any effort HTC puts into modeling a plane/gun ballistics, etc is completely wasted because of those icons.
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-07-2001).]
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I would enthusiastically be in favour of the range readout being dropped entirely from enemy icons.
Range for friendlies is good to have for formation purposes.
-Westy
(...into the wind again)
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Judging by the lack of long range shot complaints in recent months, it seems that this is far less of a perceived problem than in the past. This is somewhat surprising to me since the cones of fire were tightened up a couple of versions back. I don't ever recall being pinged beyond 900 yds by a fighter. I do regularly suffer d1.4 and closer hits from the machine gun armed ground vehicles and bombers. Nearly every bomber that has hit me at that range recently has been off of my right or left wing on a parallel course negating the effects of net lag on the range value. That 500 additional yards seem significant until the volume of fire is factored in - most are sprayin' and prayin'. Damage from the lucky hits at ths range is usually negligible. Its the close range rifle caliber devastating hits from GV's that perplex me more than the long range "silver bullets."
MiG
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Just an FYI:
The cones of fire were not tightened up. I believe the only change was that the dispersion pattern was given weighting towards the center of the cone. Instead of a completely random pattern of dispersion, a given round is now more likely to land closer to the center of the pattern, giving us a much more realistic dispersion pattern. The cone of fire is just as big as it ever was, the difference being that "most" of the rounds now pass closer to the center. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Tac, you're simply describing your idea of how the game should work.
I have a slightly different view of how things look from a RL cockpit than you do, I think.
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Ok, tell me then why the icons are in the game. Enemy icons/laserranging that is, friendly icon are needed to IFF a country with mixed war AC.
What are the advantages vs disadvantages? Which one simulates combat better?
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I play on a 17in. monitor. No Icons would be a big Bye Bye for me. That is to much of an edge to give to the guy with the equipment. I think I read somewhere that in RL they had a sort of rangefinder. If the wingspan fit into a section of the gunsite, they were X number of yards away.
The no Icon thing reminds me of the guys in WB, who think the dumbed down gunnery is just fine. You can bet its not the guys with packet loss problems that want to keep the weak guns.
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Pretty simple Tac, but you won't accept it because you have made up your mind based on your vast experience.
The icons are in the game because a 2D monitor and key pad do not, at this stage of technology (and probably never will), provide the visual cues that are nearly instantaneously available to the guy in the RL cockpit.
Since WW2 ACM is based on visual cues, there you have your answer.
"Crutches" have been built into the game to compensate for the difference between 2D monitors and RL eyeballs on a swivel mount.
Now, you have your own personal idea about how the crutches should be implemented or not implemented. Good for you. Accept the fact that others may differ with you and you may not be "right." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tell me how much time you have chasing other airplanes, particularly WW2 aircraft, around the RL sky?
Then I might be able to assess your ideas more effectively. Right now, I'm sorta unimpressed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Just my .02. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I think I read somewhere that in RL they had a sort of rangefinder. If the wingspan fit into a section of the gunsite, they were X number of yards away.
Yes indeed they did. BTW, this 'feature' has been available in Air Warrior for at least the last 10 years.
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Here are a couple of ideas that I've posted about possible modification solutions:
1:
Remove the numerical ranges, but leave the ID as is. Replace the range number with a + to indicate that you are getting closer to the con and a - to indicate that you are getting further away from the con.
Or have the range number changed to a closer number, eg
Spit
+129
would indicate that you are looking at a Spitfire and are gaining 129 yards per minute on it.
F4U
-1526
would indicate an F4U that with a separation of 1526 yards per minute.
2:
Leave the ID as is and use "+", "=" and "-" symbols to indicate distance change speed.
A Spitfire that you are gaining on fast would look as follows:
Spit
+++
A Yak that was matching, or nearly matching, your speed would be:
Yak
=
An A6M5b that you were escaping from would be:
A6M
--
An F4U-1D that you were barely out running would be:
F4U
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And a Bf109G-2 that was rapidly gaining on you would be:
109
++++
Just a couple of thoughts
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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"...Yes indeed they did. BTW, this 'feature' has been available in Air Warrior for at least the last 10 years..."
You can edit the gunsight files in AH just like in WBs (and AW) to include the range markings.
bowser
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Sure you can bowser.. but that's not the point. AW has always had a keypress which enabled you to scale the gunsight to a particular range. The actual sight itself would grow larger and smaller, and in the radio message box you would see "300yds" etc.
Vastly different from a 'one size fits all' gunsight we currently have.
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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I dunno if giving concrete information on someone's energy state relative to your plane is such a good idea...
- Bess
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But how come 1 ping can cause death whereas 500 .303 rounds do bugger all?
I can come up with a dozen reasons for 1 ping kill but I'm reading a book about a Finnish fighter pilot (don't ask me to remember his name (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and according to him 0.303 cals were useless . He describes an attack on a Soviet bomber where he'd killed a rear gunner first, then lined up on an engine of the bomber and having spent all 2,500 rounds at point blank range (2 MGs) he'd still failed to set it on fire - the bomber pulled away with a smoking but still working engine and escaped...
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Then I guess all the flying ive been doing without enemy icons on H2H for the past 3 months against my buds means that the game *really* needs icons and laserrangefinders to dogfight and get a kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I suggest you try and get off the "crutches" for a while. It wont look as in RL (heck nothing will in this decade at least), yet it does make all the features for which I, and I hope most folks here, are in AH: Good modeling and good ACM'ing. You will hardly find a quakehead in iconless games, you will rarely find people that will follow you in any manouver...because they wont have the icon screaming "HES HERE". Bounces work against the pilot that is not scanning the sky, no snap second look to 6 to see if there's a red icon there.
As I said before, it makes AH really shine in its best features and almost completely removes all the "gaming the game" kind of playing.
And yes toad, I have my mind made up. That is why im suggesting the enemy icons be removed. You may differ with me all you want, I actually like to see other points of views, yet shoving your RL experience (an incredibly common retort in this boards which "tell me sonny, have you ever flown? No? Then you dont have the right to say anything about it" attitude which I find quite hilarious) down my throat wont do you any good. And you still didnt say anything about advantages/disadvantages of the icons in the game, you just gave the reason why they are in right now.
BTW, the gunsight shake will be really cool to have next version, but I predict it will hardly do anything against the long range spray and pray. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
That's neat Jekyll! That would really help in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No, what it means Tac is that you, like so many others in so many other topics before you, have decided that everyone else should play the game the way you think it should be played. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Removing icons is simply a "difficulty level" adjustment to gameplay. It is most definitely not a "realism" adjustment to gameplay.
It ensures that you have less information than you would have in the same RL situation in most cases. This is a key part of the argument you seem to want to ignore.
Your argument is basically that if we were to have fewer and poorer quality visual cues than a RL WW2 fighter pilot, this game would be "more fun" or "better".
I have never said that the current icon system could not be improved. In fact I've said quite the opposite.
So basically, when I look at your posts on this topic I simply see one more in a long string of
"Gentlemen, I have determined that THIS is how the game should be played. You will now do it my way."
...and that's what I find quite hilarious.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad, I'm sure most players agree that icons are needed in the MA. I also agree with Tac (and the rest of ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) that the range icons should be removed at short ranges.
My suggestion is to remove the enemy aircraft range info below 1000 yards in the Main Arena. That will surely eliminate most of the spray and pray- and long range kills.
No icons / friendly only icons -flying is a completely different topic and I won't get to it in this thread.
Hopefully the CM tools will soon include the option to tweak with the icons more, so we can try it out in the special events (http://events.hitechcreations.com). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 03-08-2001).]
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For those of you who think:
1. I am totally supportive of the current icon displays
and/or
2. That other folks haven't made some pretty fine suggestions that are worthy of experimentation
Please review these posts I made ...and the threads in which they reside... before you come to the conclusion that I totally support the current icon system and that this "icon discussion" is "all new". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
10/15/99
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000753.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/000753.html)
11/16/99
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001032.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001032.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001128.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001128.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001384.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001384.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001666.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001666.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002452.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002452.html)
Just a few links to threads that have discussed this all before...back to the beginning of beta.
I hope it clairfies my position on icons.
I hope the threads they are in provide a few alternatives to the present icons that perhaps you folks haven't considered.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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i am surprised more people arent whinin about the .50 calibers - man, i almost got cranky when one 1/2 inch bullet took the entire back of my 109 off from 13 football fields away! jeez what a shot- why dont they use that is bldg demolition instead of those pesky torches and saws and high explosives (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i suppose it is necessary to give the buffs tough guns to keep them competitive but it is going to have me fightin like a sissy (well, more of a sissy) soon - them things is deadly!
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I'd be happy if two things happen:
1) turn off the laser accurate range number (or make it a lot less precise)
2) Scale the hit sprites better. Too easy to tell you're hitting the plane at longer ranges.
I think doing those 2 things would make gunnery more reasonable. Just MHO.
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Vila <Flying Pigs>
Oink! Oink! To War!
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Originally posted by Vila:
I'd be happy if two things happen:
1) turn off the laser accurate range number (or make it a lot less precise)
turn off mmm....ok i like t but:
can you imagine the resultant whinage from said move?
'you hit me from 22 miles away chog meany!'
'no i was only 100yds!'
'you're porked you gamer i am tellin my mommy!'
[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Tac....just a quick question?
Do you currently fly in the MA with icons off?
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Ice, do you use your 2 feet to move your joystick? Im not going to handicap myself.
I have tried a few times just for fun though. Got murdered in an instant when the target I was following manouvered out of sight and then got into my 6 as I extended. Makes you wonder eh?
"It ensures that you have less information than you would have in the same RL situation in most cases. This is a key part of the argument you seem to want to ignore"
Between having a little less than RL situation in "most cases" and having way too much information... well, lets just say the first one would be damn closer to simulating combat in those days.
But hey, if you've decided otherwise, go ahead and say it, im suggesting it be done.
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Originally posted by Tac:
Between having a little less than RL situation in "most cases" and having way too much information...
I'm not saying "a little less". YOU are saying "a little less."
I think it's SIGNIFICANTLY less. But what do I know right Tac?
I've been a very fortunate person. Since I was very young I wanted to fly. I realized my dream and for the last 28 years when I was "at work" (and at play) I've been viewing the world from the inside of a cockpit. I've looked at a lot of other aircraft from within those cockpits. In all kinds of weather and at all different ranges.
I've flown lots of things from Piper Cubs to B-747's. Jet trainers and transports, prop sport aerobatics and old WW2 Trainers. I own a PT and I'm part owner of a Vultee BT-13.
I'm in a CAF squadron and I fly formation and do airshows with other guys in other WW2 aircraft. We "dogfight" when we get the chance.
One fine day at Offutt AFB I was part of a CAF "Tora, Tora, Tora" show and was right in the middle of all the explosions, passes from "Zeros" and a dozen other fighters. That day my old Wing Commander boom and zoomed me for 5 minutes in his P-51 "Gunfighter II" as I turned my little PT to "spoil his shot". He clearly won, BTW. But I got a great view of a -51 in the attack mode. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Three years ago, I flew in a B-25 for almost two hours. My dad flew it from the right seat for the last hour or so. He hadn't flown one for over 40 years; what a great day. We had a P-47, a Yak-9, two T-28's and a T-6 on our wing as we circled San Francisco Bay twice and went back out to sea for some fun. I watched from the sextant dome as all these guys make hi-side passes on us for about 30 minutes. I also sat at the nose gun and tracked them as they extended out front.
But... none of that means didly. I'll defer to your expertise on how WW2 ACM should look on a PC. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Since, after all, you know exactly how much visual information is "too much". No need to try to improve Icons in the hopes of providing accurate RL visual cues. Nope, just totally get rid of them. As you implied with a previous post, what does RL experience have to do with this anyway, right? A simulated RL experience is not a goal here.
Say Tac, after you get "no icons" how about you starting a campaign to artifically limit all guns to a range of 250 yards? That way, ACM becomes even MORE important. So the "good modeling/good ACM-ing" factor increases even more. Gets rid of those dang "spray and pray" dweebs at the same time...forever! In fact, it essentially nullifies the difference between MG and Cannon armament as well. No more Hispano problem!
Then, we can improve the "armor" on the target aircraft so that you have to pour most of an ammo load into a guy to nail him. One sim tried that already, IIRC. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) That'll punish the guys that try to spray from that max 250 yard range and make 'em REALLY get in close.
Man, we'll be maximizing that ACM-ing positive experience then, won't we?
Then we can dictate a "pure HA" arena so there'll be no more of this "blue on blue" fratricide.
Yeah BABY! I bet HTC will have to add another server once you get those changes implemented.
[/sarcasm]
You know, listening to you tell me how this all should look and Ram telling me how pulling G's should feel has been quite an experience.
It's sort of like listening to a 5 year old kid tell me exactly how it would feel to make mad passionate love to the Playboy Playmate of the Year for a never-ending week in the surf at Cabo.
It's not a learning experience by any means but it sure provides a lot of comic relief.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Do what ya like.....I'm outta this thread. I do hope you get a separate "no icon" arena. Be interesting to see how long it survives. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-08-2001).]