Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Paladin3 on May 09, 2013, 09:15:16 AM
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Should bombers be tougher and have less accurate guns? That is my question. I know most of the time I can dive down with 6 .50 cal guns and take out a bomber in a pass. I also know that the guns are horribly accurate. For those who have never fired from a moving target at a marking target (especially from aircraft) I have to say wow there is no way it should be that accurate especially considering the mounting and recoil of such weapons. I was reading some and it seems that attacking a B17 required multiple cannons to take down, usually with multiple planes attacking at once.
So what do you all think? A buff is a big 'ol target to take out in one pass unless you hit the cockpit really well right?
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I was reading somewhere and I'll try to post me referance but the Germans decided it took about 20-30 20mm rounds and 5 30mm rounds to bring down a b17.
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http://northstargallery.com/Aircraft/B17/about.htm (http://northstargallery.com/Aircraft/B17/about.htm)
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I was reading somewhere and I'll try to post me referance but the Germans decided it took about 20-30 20mm rounds and 5 30mm rounds to bring down a b17.
In critical areas, these were the hits to take down a bomber in theory - problem is getting into position for this type of attack. I would love to head on every buff I see, but depending the alt/speed/fuel plays a factor.
Only in Scenarios have I ever had the advantage over buffs to get this kind of shot.
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In critical areas, these were the hits to take down a bomber in theory - problem is getting into position for this type of attack. I would love to head on every buff I see, but depending the alt/speed/fuel plays a factor.
Only in Scenarios have I ever had the advantage over buffs to get this kind of shot.
oh for sur ain't that the truth!
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In critical areas, these were the hits to take down a bomber in theory - problem is getting into position for this type of attack. I would love to head on every buff I see, but depending the alt/speed/fuel plays a factor.
Only in Scenarios have I ever had the advantage over buffs to get this kind of shot.
Not to mention when you are actively trying to get them BEFORE they drop on base/town/CV/etc
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Should bombers be tougher and have less accurate guns? That is my question. I know most of the time I can dive down with 6 .50 cal guns and take out a bomber in a pass. I also know that the guns are horribly accurate. For those who have never fired from a moving target at a marking target (especially from aircraft) I have to say wow there is no way it should be that accurate especially considering the mounting and recoil of such weapons. I was reading some and it seems that attacking a B17 required multiple cannons to take down, usually with multiple planes attacking at once.
So what do you all think? A buff is a big 'ol target to take out in one pass unless you hit the cockpit really well right?
It's not that the bomber guns are accurate, it's the fact that the majority of the players are absolutely clueless on how to properly engage bombers. The majority of players insist on attacking from the dead six position and are an easy shot for the bomber gunner. As for the toughness of the bombers in game, they are rather robust as is and do not need further adjustments to make them tougher.
ack-ack
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I tend to agree with Ack-Ack. I love flying buffs, mostly 17's and lancs, and I've experienced both extremes. Some of the time, I lose a drone or lead buff in a single horrible pass, other times I suck up bullets like a sponge.
As for accuracy of buff guns.... I look at three general factors - Patience, Luck, Timing, Luck, Attacking Pilot's position, and Luck...... I find it overall fair. More often than not, I get enough bullets on the attacking plane that they don't' want to continue the attack (oiled, PW, control surface damgae, etc), unfortunately, their friends continue the assault.... :bolt:
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The bombers are modeled correctly. If you are taking out heavy bombers regularly in 1 pass with 6 x .50 I want to fly with you.
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The bombers are modeled correctly. If you are taking out heavy bombers regularly in 1 pass with 6 x .50 I want to fly with you.
When do you want to fly with me? It's easy to take out a bomber in one pass, as long as you use the proper tactics and aim in a vital area. Personally, I use the over head attack on bombers and aim for the wing root or engines and repeat my attacks on the remaining bombers. It's very rare for me to take more than 3 attack passes on a formation of bombers and if it takes me more than 3 passes it's because I hurried my attack and didn't get into proper positioning.
ack-ack
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It's not that the bomber guns are accurate
Lies, ALL LIES...We all know how accurate your B38 guns are :noid
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It isn't that hard to kill a heavy bomber in one pass, I can do two at a time safely in my P38. The trick is to make the pass with defeating the defensive guns your primary thought, particularly with angles you would avoid making a snapshot in a 1v1 environment. Approach from 10 or 2 oclock and high or below the bomber box; the worst angles would be level at 0 degrees AoT and 180 degrees AOT.
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What ack-ack said. Killing a bomber in 1 pass is not that difficult, if you're set up properly. The difficulty and deaths occur if you're rushed.
Wiley.
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shooting down a buff from high 12-attack is many times done in one pass, though meeting some good buff gunners like 99000 or Daveyj, im struggling to get within 1k without getting vital parts shot off.
I say 1,5k shots to the side or high/low front should be close to impossible, if i remember correctly buff gunners opened up at about 600 yards out RL.
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When do you want to fly with me? It's easy to take out a bomber in one pass, as long as you use the proper tactics and aim in a vital area. Personally, I use the over head attack on bombers and aim for the wing root or engines and repeat my attacks on the remaining bombers. It's very rare for me to take more than 3 attack passes on a formation of bombers and if it takes me more than 3 passes it's because I hurried my attack and didn't get into proper positioning.
ack-ack
You should post your film of shooting down Tyrannis' buffs from a couple of years ago
I watched that before I had ever even gone online with AH and I'd consider it the perfect example of what you are describing here
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I routinely kill 2 out of 3 bombers in a formation with a P51 or spit.
You have to set up the pass properly, have lots of energy over them and shoot at wing tips or engine fires. It does surprise me that 50 cal is superior for killing buffs than 20mm hispano or taters.
Just line up the right hand drone so when it explodes the formation doesn't warp. Open up from 800 on the first target quickly switch to the lead drone and kill him from much closer.
With the 262 you can even get all 3 in one slashing attack.
also take into account whether he has dropped already, chasing rtb buffs with height can be difficult because of their extra speed.
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It does surprise me that 50 cal is superior for killing buffs than 20mm hispano or taters.
That may be because convergence is less of an issue on buffs. When you blast an La7 outside convergence, your bullets are striking several different parts on opposite sides of the plane. When you blast buffs outside convergence, your still hitting the wing.
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You should post your film of shooting down Tyrannis' buffs from a couple of years ago
I watched that before I had ever even gone online with AH and I'd consider it the perfect example of what you are describing here
Sadly, don't have those films anymore.
ack-ack
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I don't know what would need changed, but I don't ever recall ever seeing any WW2 guncam footage of a single fighter shooting down 2-3 bombers in a single pass or under 30 seconds.Actually, I've never seen a fighter shoot down 2 bombers in any film at all.
Maybe make the buffs a tougher but also give them a variable gun convergence that is, say, between .7 to 1.2k that is randomly chosen by the game each time you take off. This will make it a lil' more realistic in simulating real gunners. The buff player would have to work a lil' instead of at finding the sweet spot each sortie, instead of knowing all his gunners are olympian shooters. I fly buffs quite a bit & would personally love to have this fun challenge of "feeling your gunners out", whether pre- or during combat. Anybody each, after thinking about it, think this might be more fun for the buff pilot by adding some variance to each buff flight? I'd love the challenge. :joystick:
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The bombers are modeled correctly. If you are taking out heavy bombers regularly in 1 pass with 6 x .50 I want to fly with you.
It's all about where you place your rounds... even 4 x .50s can quite easily get it done.
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I don't know what would need changed, but I don't ever recall ever seeing any WW2 guncam footage of a single fighter shooting down 2-3 bombers in a single pass or under 30 seconds.Actually, I've never seen a fighter shoot down 2 bombers in any film at all.
Most gun cameras were, so far as I understand, set to go when the trigger was pulled and stop when it was released. Is that correct?
Certainly multi-kill sorties against heavies were not the norm, but they did happen. Wasn't there a German who got seven B-17s/B-24s in one sortie and a Japanese who got four B-29s in one sortie?
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I was reading somewhere and I'll try to post me referance but the Germans decided it took about 20-30 20mm rounds and 5 30mm rounds to bring down a b17.
Read this I think it might be helpful.
US Air Combat Records WW II.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/9yt-7VoL/US_Air_Combat_Records_WW_II.html)
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Maybe make the buffs a tougher but also give them a variable gun convergence that is, say, between .7 to 1.2k that is randomly chosen by the game each time you take off. This will make it a lil' more realistic in simulating real gunners.
How would that be more realistic? Realistic would be a variable convergence that fixated on the target and changed in relation to target's position. A gunner in different position/plane would be firing at the most convenient target in his field of view, not some predetermined point that may or may not contain an enemy plane.
I have no idea how accurate the remote control/powered turrets were in real life compared to what we have in game (did they compensate for plane vector, wind resistance, plane vibrations, recoil, etc.?). I am sure the accuracy of handheld machine guns were far less accurate than the remote controlled/powered turrets and should be modeled as such. I'd favor reducing the accuracy and reaction time of firing all guns to more real life standards if applicable (i.e. a 1 second delay in aiming and firing the other positions depending on the player's point of view). To counterbalance this, give the player the ability to adjust the convergence on the fly with a turn of the mouse wheel (e.g. 88mm gun) ranging from 150 to 650 yards. Again, the convergence settings would be given a small delay so as to not make it an instantaneous adjustment. Accuracy will be dependent on the convergence setting (i.e. d150 will have far less variation in the spread of all firing guns than at d650). This adds another variable for the bomber gunner to consider and requires the gunner to give extra lead in predicting where the target will be for the optimum defense.
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By far the easier plane set tontake outin one pass is the G4M.
Opened at 1k and used rudder to slide from target to target.
Granted being in a p38 made it easier
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Bomber pilots are getting smarter and game adjustments make it tougher. You certainly do not need to have the game adjusted for you, but you need to adjust to the game.
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If we're talking realism, how many bomber pilots were known for their gunnery skills? The lack of Otto (automated defensive gunnery) in AH puts a ridiculously heavy workload on bomber pilots, especially when on final approach to target. How many times do you think the bomb-aimer had to leave their post when seconds from drop to man a gun?
As a bomber specialist, I want to fly the durned plane first and foremost - handling the bomb-aiming is interesting, but HAVING to handle gunnery as well just hands the advantage to the fighter pilots. It's beyonfd belief that in a plane with 5-7 crew members that the only one who'd spot approaching enemy would be the pilot. Even having Otto just call out that they can see incoming enemy (the o'clock plus high, low or level) would be a help even if Otto didn't actually fire a shot. Best of all would be that, PLUS rather inaccurate Otto that could be turned on or off by the pilot, and retaining the ability for the pilot to jump to a gun position and have a go if they wish to.
Note that Otto gunnery would be using up ammo, so there'd be a tradeoff between an occasional lucky hit from Otto against ammo depletion. It'd also mean that we wouldn't have to use some of the crazy and unrealistic flying tricks that are commonly necessary in order to survive bomber sorties in the MA, and might also encourage more folk who aren't great shots to have a go flying bombers.
Dotdar should also be visible only to those on the ground, IMO. This would force fighter types to fly defensive patrols a bit more, and make it harder for them to home in on buffs so quickly.
Also, low-level flak needs to have a wake-up time, and be less good at tracking objects with high angular velocity. At high alt, it seems to be about right, but at low level, it's so murderous that the kind of low-level raids commonly flown by Do17's in the early war are a darned sight more dangerous than they should be.
Next - all this precision-bombing nonsense to close fields - it'd be very welcome indeed if dropping bombs on fields produced cratering that could effectively prevent planes from taking off. Perhaps a bulldozer could be added to the vehicles that, if driven slowly enough over a crater would smooth it out. Have this in addition to allowing the pinpoint stuff, sure, but scattering bombs on the runway should have SOME effect other than occasionally catching an unfortunate spawning plane.
I'd prefer the Me163 to be removed from arena play altogether, as it just allows fighter pilots to be damned lazy, and pandering to the "I wanna kill something quickly" attitude overmuch has been the worst feature of all the WW2 combat flight sims I've seen.
Off on a tangent - howsabout awarding perkies to recce planes for photoing enemy ships, bases and strats and RTBing? You'd need to have a recce loadout for suitable planes, of course.
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EsmeII,
AH is an online multiplayer game. The "otto" function you are asking for is called a human gunner. If HTC will decide to allow more than one gunner on board (perhaps in the drones) I would heartily support it. This game should have as little AI as possible.
Dot dar only helps to find the lone bomber that is milk-running a field/strats, which is good. Most of the time I spent flying is when all base dar tower within 3 sectors look like a burning flaccid man-part and bombers are being called out on local channel by fighters in the air.
163 is just as lazy as putting a bomber on auto-climb, going to get the groceries, returning when it is flying on the edge of space and headed towards the strats - only takes less time. Killing my dar-bar is the most painful thing you can do to my types. It should not be done easily with just some investment of auto-climb time and a bag of groceries.
As for bombing the runway - many WWII airfields did not even have a proper runway. Disabling a field by cratering it will be stupidly easy and contribute nothing to the game - quite the opposite. If you want a use for carpet bombing a base - ask for an increased blast radius with a very low damage inside the extended annulus. This way carpet bombing a field will kill acks, planes on the ground and damage GVs parked in the middle of the field (probably will not kill anything heavily armored). I have no problem with killing planes on the ground with bombs, it is both realistic and part of the game where planes taking off from a field under attack do so at a high risk. Damage to GVs on the field is good too because I have GVs sitting on the tarmac and exiting when they take damage which does not make them immediately explode.
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DO bombers need an adjustment? fly against 999000 and find out - imagine if he flew at 15k and not 3k.
Nope buffs do not need an adjustment, either learn to gun or learn to attack better.
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re: Low level AA fire.
Anybody have that bit by Closterman in which he loses an entire squadron of Tempests to low level AA fire in a single pass when they attack a German airfield?
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DO bombers need an adjustment? fly against 999000 and find out - imagine if he flew at 15k and not 3k.
Nope buffs do not need an adjustment, either learn to gun or learn to attack better.
Any bomber is easier to kill at 15k than 3k. Bombers hugging the deck make high angle, high speed attacks very dangerous for the attacker.
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re: Low level AA fire.
Anybody have that bit by Closterman in which he loses an entire squadron of Tempests to low level AA fire in a single pass when they attack a German airfield?
Wasn't that the Me262 base that's landing pattern was nothing but Anti aircraft guns? flak row as they called it or what not.
I need to get his book.
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Any bomber is easier to kill at 15k than 3k. Bombers hugging the deck make high angle, high speed attacks very dangerous for the attacker.
Quite the opposite for me, Buffs are harder at 15k then 3k to shoot down. Its far easier on the deck as Buffs are SLOWER, with no room to work, a 262 for example can easily get the speed to attack any which direction, above 15k things start to slim out.
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I maintain a) that it is to easy to take down a buff and b) that the guns are not realistically accurate.
Oh well. Guess we will live with an arcade.
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I hate to bring up IL2 but I thought the AI defensive fire from the buffs in that game seemed more realistic than every single gun that can fire on a target going cyclic.