Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Selino631 on June 05, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
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So, my Active Duty contract ends this November, and i'm just going to be switching over to the Army National Guard. And as a career i'm looking at just using my GI Bill to go to school to be a Airline pilot. I've been looking around at several schools but the two i'm most interested in are, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and Aerosim Flight Academy (formerly Delta Connection academy). I've heard both good and bad about each, but i'm just wondering if anyone has any 1st hand experience with either of these locations. thanks
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I was accepted to comair academy in 2001 and moved to "stonebrook" where most of the flight instructors and students lived but september 11th happened and I watched instructors start driving around with domino's pizza delivery lights on the roofs of thier cars.
Pretty hard to pay back 60 grand worth of student loans on a domino's driver salary so I wisely stayed with my temporary job toyota (intent was to earn for a few months before attending comair) and ended up a Lexus master technician.
Wherever you go, make sure you live where the highest concentration of students or flight instructors live.
The total immersion and having help only footsteps away will make things a huge amount easier.
I got my A&P, private, and instrument ratings at SIU carbondale back in 1984, moved to miami for eastern airlines pilot entry program in 1988 only to have eastern go down with my name on the machinists union roster, and pursued a life outside of aviation for a long while before going to comair only to be thwarted again by september 11.
Stopped only a little short of ground school to complete a commercial but I wonder if something is telling me to stay out of the cockpit.
Part of my not going ahead was seeing the woefully unqualified people I saw as instructors at comair who couldn't even change a tire on the bmw thier parents bought them for graduating.
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Before you do anything, make an appointment with a local flight surgeon and get a first class medical. That, in and of itself, will determine if you can go any further.
Next, get a two year degree from any junior college keeping in mind that you'll need to transfer any credits over to the University of your choice. That will probably save you 30k or so. If you're panning to go to Embry Riddle in Daytona, I HIGHLY reccomend looking into Floida State College @ Jacksonville to get the 2 year under your belt. They have a pilot program where ALL the credits will transfer over to ERAU. Their pilot courses will allow you to use your GI Bill to get your license.
Also, if you can pull it off, buy a nice IFR equipped Cessna 150/152 to build time in. They can be had for around 15k now. You can lease the plane to a local flight school to offset the maintenance. Then sell it after you get your IFR ticket and get some of you $ back. During your initial phases of flight training, it's more important to build time than it is to go fast. You can save a TON of money on fuel by flying everywhere you go as slow as possible. Seems counterintuitive but hours and ratings are what they look for. An hour in a Cessna doing 40knots is the same as an hour in a Gulstream doing 600knots.
I considered the professional pilot route for quite some time but opted out when I did the math. If you peruse it, you better LOVE it because you could be a doctor or lawyer for the amount of money you're going to invest in your training. When you start working the small carriers, you're going to be making near poverty level money till you advance. And...your entire career is dependent of maintaining that medical certificate. If you lose it, you're back to delivering pizza. If you love what you do, however, you never work a day in your life.
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Oops double post.
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My little brother went to F.I.T. in Melbourne, Florida. Really liked it. Got a bunch of commercial pilot-type tickets, plus a B.A. in business. Looked at being a pilot, then got into aviation insurance. He goes all over the country looking at bent and broken planes, i.e., he was the guy who made the phone call about a crane to pull Sullenberger's flight 1549 out of the Hudson River.
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Embry Riddle is a phenominal school however the time sheet is almost always full and it is a very busy airspace. Simulators are hard to get in due to popularity but the instructors, aircraft, and university are all top notch. If you are not worried about amenities or the area take a look at Florida Tech in Melbourne, FL. The Melbourne Airport is not very busy, somewhat inexpensive tution, and relaxed lifestyle. Of course, this is if you are looking at Florida.
It is hard to turn down Daytona Beach though, I couldn't :)
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A friend was with Embry Riddle but he felt it was too slow when it came to flight time so he moved to another flight school as an Instructor during the summer. Great pilot by the way. He wasn't interested in any form of relaxed lifestyle. He was full on.
After training consider skydive flying, it's always under estimated. It's real flying and your stick and rudder skills will improve beyond all recognition. It's a tough apprenticeship but you'll be a better pilot for it. There are time when I think, this is just like Aces High!
One thing for sure no ex skydive pilot will drop into the sea with the stall warning screeching!
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Alot of the complaint's i've heard about ERAU is that they are kinda slow (like you all said) and the price (which doesn't matter cause of the VA). But i was looking more into Aerosim and found out that they partner with Jacksonville University in Florida. and i can come out with a 4 year degree in whatever and still get all my training done (as well as be around a bunch of 18-23 year old girls :D ) Anyone know anything about Aerosim Flight Academy or Jacksonville University in particular?
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What LilMak said about getting the medical first is spot on. Went to Riddle in Prescott with a guy who lost his medical due to a heart condition his junior year. He had to change majors because of it.
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One thing for sure no ex skydive pilot will drop into the sea with the stall warning screeching!
Gee, I wonder which Air France flight from Brazil to France you could possibly be referring to...
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Alot of the complaint's i've heard about ERAU is that they are kinda slow (like you all said) and the price (which doesn't matter cause of the VA). But i was looking more into Aerosim and found out that they partner with Jacksonville University in Florida. and i can come out with a 4 year degree in whatever and still get all my training done (as well as be around a bunch of 18-23 year old girls :D ) Anyone know anything about Aerosim Flight Academy or Jacksonville University in particular?
JU is a private college ($$$$). I used to live a few blocks from there but I don't remember them having an aviation department. Not sure how much you have in your GI bill but I know mine was no where near enough to cover ERAU...let alone flight hours. I still recommend Florida State College @ Jax. Great program when I was there (maybe 15 years ago). Plus it will allow you to establish residence and qualify for instate tuition at JU or ERAU. You'll still come out with a degree from the big school but you'll have more flexibility in your flying schedule. FSC didn't own planes so you were responsible for going to a local flight school and getting lessons. You had to come out of pocket with the money till you completed the "class". The first "class" was your solo endorsement. When a CFI signed your log book, you could go to the college and get credit for the class at and the GI bill would send you a nice chunk all at once because the credit hours were pretty large. The second "class" was to your private cert and it worked the same way. There was rarely any scheduling conflicts because YOU chose the actual private flight school and could switch on a whim. The CFI's loved it because you got all your ground school at the college and they got to spend more time in the right seat. It was a really good setup.
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One thing about riddle is that the student population is male dominated. If that's your thing or you're already hitched or you want to be a monk for a few years, then that's not a problem... I put up with the USAF academy for 4 years (15% female if I recall correctly) primarily because it was the only way to get a flying gig during some budget cut years and I supposed it didn't cause me any permanent damage, but you need to know what sort of environment you're getting into. Other larger universities with flying programs generally have a more diverse student population and that makes the days OFF the flying schedule go by much more quickly.
Then again, not having a GF, SO, wife, etc. provides a certain incentive to study hard and get out of there quickly so you can get rich faster and then take your pick from a larger pool... Again, assuming that's part of your long range plans.
If you're already married, then maybe riddle would be a good way to avoid temptation.
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If you're looking into a degree and flying at the same time: ERAU or North Dakota. Many smaller operations as well. Plenty of places, one thing I was glad I did was to visit/tour several places before making a final choice.
Another Florida option not mentioned is Flight Safety Academy, 30 mins or so south of FIT. It's the one I chose and was satisfied. No place is perfect though.
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If you're looking into a degree and flying at the same time: ERAU or North Dakota. Many smaller operations as well. Plenty of places, one thing I was glad I did was to visit/tour several places before making a final choice.
Another Florida option not mentioned is Flight Safety Academy, 30 mins or so south of FIT. It's the one I chose and was satisfied. No place is perfect though.
I actually have heard of them, and that is also one i've been looking into. the reason i've been leaning more towards Aerosim is it seems like they hook you up alittle more as far as being a CFI after training AND a guarenteed Airline interview
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In 4 years if you can fog a mirror 3 out of 10 tries you'll get an airline interview.
The regionals are starting to hurt and it's going to get worse for them in the next 5 years as the legacies start hiring. A lot. Don't take that "guaranteed interview" as being worth anything other than a talking point to someone who doesn't know better. And now you do :)
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I wonder if the majors will be desperate enough to hire me. Unless I find time to fly CAP or work out an occasional instruction gig, I won't have a single "real" flying hour for the last 4 years of my AF career due to flying UAVs. I heard that's pretty much immediate disqualification during the application process no matter what kind of time the applicant had before then. I only have about 2500 hrs anyhow, about 1400 IP hrs, 650ish F-15E, and another few hundred student and trainer PIC hours.
I don't have the cash to maintain currency out of pocket. I need to finish getting my mil comp CFII so I can get someone else to pay for my flight time, but my initial instructional target would be upset recovery training. Not sure what I need to do in order to be able to teach that though.
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Know whereabouts you're intending to live when you're getting out and the approximate timeframe for when the last of those last 4 years are going to be?
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Selino, gaurunteed interview isn't much for the reasons golfer mentioned. And flight safety actually has a deal where if you complete your commercial ratings and sign an instructor contract with them (18 months) they'll pay for your CFI, I-I, and MEI.
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Friend of mine went to FIT and loved it.
Make sure the school is Part 141. Also be prepared to dish the cost of your PPL out of pocket.
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Selino, gaurunteed interview isn't much for the reasons golfer mentioned. And flight safety actually has a deal where if you complete your commercial ratings and sign an instructor contract with them (18 months) they'll pay for your CFI, I-I, and MEI.
oh wow really?! They still offer this?
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oh wow really?! They still offer this?
If you want to go an airline route I would not let 18 months of seniority pass you by for any reason.
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Also, when I toyed with the idea of going for my commercial license, my airline buddies told me to stay away. Make sure to sit down and talk with some guys who have experience and who will give you an honest opinion about it.
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Assuming you finished the program and instructors ratings with around 200 hours you'll take about 18 months to get to 1500.
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Know whereabouts you're intending to live when you're getting out and the approximate timeframe for when the last of those last 4 years are going to be?
I expect to retire in Las Vegas near the end of 2015, but depending on job situation and what the AF offers I could potentially stay in until May 2018. But probably out around Nov 2015. If I had my shzt together I'd find a local guy with a citabria or something equally simple and capable of mild aerobatics, find another couple of chair pilots with mil instructional backgrounds, and open a little school for upset and mild aerobatic training. I have 1500 hrs in the T-37 and T-6, so I'm GOOD at taking noobs and showing them spins, rolls, loops, etc. I'd obviously have to do it the FAA way in order for it to count as true upset training, but I figure I could get a few hours a month that way, paid for by whoever wants a fighter pilot and military IP to show them a few things in relative safety.
But, I'm behind at life at the moment so I might not ever put that plan into motion. But it would be a fun way to keep current and make some coin on the side. Way back in 1989, the local upset/spin instructor charged $100/hr on top of the rental expenses. No idea what its worth now but I only need to charge enough to make it pay for itself (insurance, books/training, checkrides, etc).
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Definitely doable but there are quite a few places that specialize in exactly that. Vegas would be as good a place as any for it though networking your way into one of those places shouldn't be impossible. I also know an L39 instructor who flys airliners and instructs in the 39s on the side. That's a good compromise. Great guy also.
I asked since a buddy just called in a pinch looking for someone with pretty low qualifications. (2500 Total/500 PIC/500 Jet) for a charter Gulfstream FO. Its a 3 pilot deal and aside from a vacancy they just had open up the other remaining guy just came down with a big (but temporary) medical issue so they're grounded on doing any charters until they get someone. They're having trouble finding the right fit.
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Unless you can go through military obtain multi engine jet rating and plenty of hours, and/or add a aeronautical relevant degree you'll need to think long and hard before committing the dollars and hours towards private lessons in the hope of a airline pilot career which for many years will probably earn you less than a truck driver.
I completed a CPL Helicopters and fixed wing years ago but never took it further as couldn't see the long term career rewards/goals I was looking for. I was fortunate that my instructor was also an airline captain who gave me plenty of realistic advice on aviation as a career. Most instructors just feed students dribble about becoming airline pilots, reality they are just after the next pay check you are supplying. The longer they can keep you as a student spending money the better.
If you love flying keep it private otherwise it will just become a job. Pursue a career which will pay big dollars and have a lot of job satisfaction. That's the path I ended up taking and have earned over six figure sums for years which has allowed me to continue to enjoy flying as a hobby.
Also the other posters point about buying a small cheap plane and using that to gain own hours and rent out is a good one. I did the same with a small syndicate of friends which helped a little towards increasing own hours and paying for a helicopter rating.
Something to also think about airline pilots these days are cockpit managers, computers fly the plane, possibly not long before they start doing that task from the ground. Firstly with cargo and eventually passengers will follow.
<S>...-Gixer
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Thx golfer. I haven't scoped out the scene yet so your insight is appreciated. Finding an established group and joining them part time would be easier than rolling it alone, and since it isn't my primary income I could be pretty easy about the scheduling priorities as the new guy.
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I keep hearing the same thing over and over about how its a big financial risk to become a Commercial Airline Pilot. Is this also the same for Helicopter pilots?
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Absolutely one of the worst career path choices you could make these days if you're starting from scratch. Unless you were flying cargo coming out of the military ready to 141 right into an ATP rating, you'd be better off getting a viable degree and flying for fun.
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I keep hearing the same thing over and over about how its a big financial risk to become a Commercial Airline Pilot. Is this also the same for Helicopter pilots?
Yes absolutely, unless you know someone in the industry who will give you a first foot in the door towards flying helicopters extremely difficult and very expensive. That's why as first choice always try gain flight training and flight hours through the military. (though US is easier, my experience is Australia/NZ)
If you want to fly helicopters as a career and nothing else will satisfy of course work three jobs as I did and save enough for flight training, work towards a CPL and then instructor ratings, eventually after instructing for a couple years you might just then be employable. One of most expensive aspects of helicopter flying is turbine time experience.
From the time I did my first solo to when I finished CPL with rating for H500 I must of spent close to $100,000 and with that you are basically unemployable no matter how many letters you right to operators. One reason and often the case is due to helicopter insurance, often the policies state that pilot must have min 1000 hours or more on that helicopter type rating to qualify for the insurance. And insurance is a bigger expense than maintenance, looking at roughly 10-15% value of the machine each year.
Therefore operators can't even if they want to, hire you with only 100 hours turbine time. Realistically you need 1000 hours plus, and to obtain that privately is going to cost you on average well over $500 an hour.
I don't want to put anyone off if their goal is a career as a helicopter pilot, but you need to step back and keep it realistic. Helicopter pilots unless they can work locally are more likely than not have to work globally, traveling from what ever job they can get, all commercial pilots I know only one is currently still in his home country all rest had to move overseas and travel around from job to job generally following the summer months.
Plus helicopter pilots don't earn much, even less than airline pilots. After considering all the realities of being a helicopter pilot I decided for me the right choice would be high income private sector within finance and keep flying as a hobby, glad now I made that choice.
Skim through the online job offers for helicopter pilots, often the minimums for experience of a particular rating type are far beyond what you will be able acquire via private flight training and a first instructor job.
<S>...-Gixer
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If you want to fly helicopters as a career and nothing else will satisfy of course work three jobs as I did and save enough for flight training, work towards a CPL and then instructor ratings, eventually after instructing for a couple years you might just then be employable. One of most expensive aspects of helicopter flying is turbine time experience.
well i can use the GI Bill (basically a grant of money given to Veterans from the Government to be used toward school) I'll be able to get all of my ratings from Private to CFII for free.
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In that case go for it, but I would suggest spending a lot of time researching aviation as a career (especially in regards to financial return, work conditions, risk etc) before committing the time and money even if it's a grant.
Personally if I was to start over, had the opportunity of a grant I wouldn't put it towards flying time but look to gain a degree which would provide more career options. Aviation Computer Science, Aviation Engineering or Aviation Tech.
imho I think the future for high paying careers in aviation is with drones, the demand for actual pilots is only going to become less. Even in civilian area already seeing an increase in the type of jobs drones are doing in replace of helicopters.
<S>...-Gixer
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I expect to retire in Las Vegas near the end of 2015, but depending on job situation and what the AF offers I could potentially stay in until May 2018. But probably out around Nov 2015. If I had my shzt together I'd find a local guy with a citabria or something equally simple and capable of mild aerobatics, find another couple of chair pilots with mil instructional backgrounds, and open a little school for upset and mild aerobatic training. I have 1500 hrs in the T-37 and T-6, so I'm GOOD at taking noobs and showing them spins, rolls, loops, etc. I'd obviously have to do it the FAA way in order for it to count as true upset training, but I figure I could get a few hours a month that way, paid for by whoever wants a fighter pilot and military IP to show them a few things in relative safety.
But, I'm behind at life at the moment so I might not ever put that plan into motion. But it would be a fun way to keep current and make some coin on the side. Way back in 1989, the local upset/spin instructor charged $100/hr on top of the rental expenses. No idea what its worth now but I only need to charge enough to make it pay for itself (insurance, books/training, checkrides, etc). :salute
Eagl, in the not to distant future, ALL airline pilots will have to have a minimum of 1500 hours and an ATP. You've got the time and with your experience wouldn't have much trouble knocking out an ATP.
A lot of the regional/commuter outfits are going to hit the wall with this new requirement, so I've been told. So, if your ultimate goal is an airline job, the bow wave shortage of "qualified" pilots may come along at the right time. Also, doing upset training would be great fun, but won't count for much with the majors. They tend to like pilots with current commercial airline (commuter/regional) and/or military time. After retirement, I landed a job flying the mighty Beech 1900 for a commuter and got my currency re-established that way. My current company requires at least two of the last five years of commercial and/or military flying to be considered for interview. There have also been rumblings about a global shortage of qualified airline candidates in the next 8 to 10 years. Hope this is helpful with your future considerations.
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Thanks Puma. The idea of doing upset training would simply be a way to keep from having a very large gap in my logbook, not building time to meet requirements. I already have 2 yearlong gaps due to medical problems (resolved), and now I'm stuck in RPA land for about 3.5 years. I'm mostly trying to keep my options open since I really don't yet know what I'll try to do when my mil retirement comes along. A lot will depend on the current national security environment, and whether or not any of my past experience is worth anything at the time. If I was to get out NOW, I have several places I might potentially be hired. A few years from now, who knows.
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Yep Eagl, as you know so well, it's all about timing.