Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on June 08, 2013, 01:39:42 AM
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I'm decent at lining up shots when I'm turning with someone but I've noticed I have a heck of a hard time trying to land shots on crossing snapshots. It's a real problem when I fly planes like the 109K4 which are best at getting kills by setting up these snapshots. I always seem to pull lead, point at a spot where they will be flying to, let off the G's, let them cross through my gunsight, and I either miss high or low.
Is there some kind of trick to these shots? How do you K4 experts line up these crossing shots?
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I'm hardly an expert, and I'm not long back in the game, but I used to be pretty good at hitting those. What I did was to fly to a very near collision, and shoot a second before just barely missing the bad guys plane with your own.
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Those sorts or crossing shot are really short range wouldn't that require a near 200 or less convergence, not to mention ruddering in the direction they are travelling to increase hit probability. :headscratch:
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You ever go offline, enable the LCS green cross, and fly across the drone circle repeatedly for an hour to try and understand the lead and trajectory for the MK108? Grizz was right about setting the convergence to 350. It averages the flattest to 400yds.
Time to Target in seconds MK108.
---Target----100---200---300---400---500---600--yards
---500m\s---.20---.40----.60----.80---1.0---1.2--seconds
Combat Speeds 90 degree left<--->right Travel in Yards.
--Time----.10--.20--.30---.40--.50--.60--.70--.80---.90---1.0--1.5--seconds
250mph---11---22---33---45---56---67---78---89---100--112--168--yards\sec
300mph---14---29---43---58---73---87--102--116--131--146--219
350mph---17---34---51---68---85--102--119--136--153--171--256
400mph---19---39---58---78---97--117--136--156--175--195--292
Revi 100Mil Ring at Range
100mil at 100yds = 8.3yds
100mil at 200yds = 19 yds
100mil at 300yds = 30 yds
100mil at 400yds = 40 yds
100mil at 600yds = 60 yds
At 200yds.
Target traveling 300mph left to right covers 58yds.
30mm takes .40sec to travel 200yds.
58\19=3.05.
From the center of your gunsight ring hold over by 3-100Mil rings lead.
+OOO :airplane:
This is why K4 aces in the game talk about aiming with the windscreen vertical bars when calculating lead. When you dive on a B17 you aim in bomber lengths ahead of it. B17 is 25yds long. Our B17's can fly at about 300mph. Shooting from 600yds back the B17 will have traveled 200yds in 1.2sec. So 8 B17 lengths ahead or 3.3 Revi rings. Offline using the LCS sight makes that look outrageous as your aim point. I'm giving this as an illustration of how much more lead you have to account for with a 500m\sec slow round. Not as bomber killing instructions for those who jump on these things as bad tactics.
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Thanks for the great replies. I've set the 30mm convergence at just about every setting from 150-300 and just can not seem to get it to shoot where I want. I remember trying 300 out in offline to see where the 30mm was hitting. It was pretty flat and I thought I'd be happy with it, but I still couldn't land hits on anything past 200yds. So, I set the convergence back to 200 again. This makes the 30mm drop off like a rock at 400 or further but I can't hit anything there anyways.
I think one of my problems I keep forgetting about is the long travel time the 30mm takes. Even if my 13mm's and 30mm are hitting in the same place the 30mm is taking a heck of a lot longer than the 13's to get there. I need to get out of the habit of trying to snipe them with a few rounds and just let the led fly like I do in my other 109s.
:salute
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Don't know if you ever met Plantano.
He taught me the K4 way, way, back. He also taught me to shoot by single taps. Talk to JunkyII about that. He went that direction in learning the MK108 after I told him about Plantano. In about a week of only flying the K4 he could hit things easily with the MK108 but, lost his sense for smaller caliber guns.
Takes a week of non stop K4.
At 200 yards dispersion becomes your enemy. Hitech has the crappy dispersion dialed in. I think he even has the spin drift modeled also.
From Rechlin testing of the MK108. I'm turning meters in yards, feet, inches because the original german is in meters. Crappy ballistics ain't it? Your best shots are inside of 200 shooting at fighters. It's been a few years that I can remember being punished from 400 non stop by K4 and Ta152.
Range-- Drop-- Dispersion
109yd-- 8in---- 7ft
219yd-- 2.7ft-- 14ft <---- Set MK108 conv to 350 and highest point is 2ft above sight line. Flat to 200yd.
328yd-- 6.5ft-- 22ft
437yd-- 12ft--- 31ft <---- It's not the drop that's killing your aim with this gun.
The offline target's rings are 10ft wide. Do some dispersion testing from all 4 of these distances on auto level at 312 ia. Helps if you go into the arena setup offline and increase your ammo 10x for testing.
100, 200, 300, 400
Check out some of the random flyer rounds at all 4 distances.
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bustr how do I enable LCS offline?
Thx in advance :salute :cheers:
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How to enable the following for offline.
1. - Lead Computing Gunsight and Dive Bombing Sight.
2. - .001 Fuel Burn rate.
3. - 10x Ammo.
Clipboard ---> Options
Arena Setup
Environment
Arena Settings
(General Tab)
FlightModeFlags---> Change Button
Dive Bombsight {x}
Lead Computing Gunsight {x}
OK Button then Save
FuelBurnRateMulti---> Change Button
0.001
OK Button then Save
(Weapons Tab)
ManGunnerAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneAutoAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneGunAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
OK Button to each then Save
When chasing drones hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing, when you hit the ordinance select key the green dive bomb cross will show up.
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Aztec,
To get the LCG up:
"Options"
"Arena Set up"
"Environment"
"Arena Settings"
Under the "General Tab", scroll down until you see "FlightModeFlags"
- "X" Lead Computed Gunsight
...
To get a better feel for Time of Flight (and trajectory) of your various rounds/platforms, I suggest you bring up the Target and shoot it at different distances (Counting in your head from trigger to splash):
".target XXX", Enter
-- The target will be due north of you and will fly along at you altitude and at the range (XXX) you set
To remove/reset it, type ".Target 0", Enter
Like bustr said, It takes time to internalize the shots
:salute
- Rodent57
{Bustr beat me to the post key :-) }
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Thanks bustr! :salute.
If you guys are on tonight I'll be seeing you
later :D either rook or knights :t
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Thx guys, I sure appreciate it :) :salute :cheers:
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go ask bone, joachim or redbull how they do it.
They rarely miss. :aok
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Being young helps. Between 15-25 years old reactions and instinctual gunnery will be far better than that of a 26-35 year old. I'm 30 now and I just don't have the same computer gaming ability as when I started playing a decade ago. Not to mention that the older and more mature we get the less time we waste getting good at games.
However, do not be downhearted, in real life there are many things that us old folks are better at than the whippersnappers :old:
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Being young helps. Between 15-25 years old reactions and instinctual gunnery will be far better than that of a 26-35 year old. I'm 30 now and I just don't have the same computer gaming ability as when I started playing a decade ago. Not to mention that the older and more mature we get the less time we waste getting good at games.
However, do not be downhearted, in real life there are many things that us old folks are better at than the whippersnappers :old:
LOL you think 30 is old........ You're in for a surprise my friend!!!!
I do agree the youth have eyesight and reflexes I can only wish for but I'll take old age and treachery over youth and good looks anyday! :rofl :rofl
However I do wish I was 30 and knew what I know today!!!
:salute
PS: while my shooting leave plenty to be desired,I say try to get the rounds out in-front of the enemy,better to miss a few in-front and have the enemy fly into them than to miss them all behind the enemy.
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I'm decent at lining up shots when I'm turning with someone but I've noticed I have a heck of a hard time trying to land shots on crossing snapshots. It's a real problem when I fly planes like the 109K4 which are best at getting kills by setting up these snapshots. I always seem to pull lead, point at a spot where they will be flying to, let off the G's, let them cross through my gunsight, and I either miss high or low.
Is there some kind of trick to these shots? How do you K4 experts line up these crossing shots?
A good way to practice crossing snap shots is to fly a flat scissors with a partner and take turns being the shooter and the target. The target aircraft should be predictable and easy to line up on until you get consistent hits. Switch roles when the shooter is out of ammo.
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Latrobe there are two ways to use the mk108, actively or passively.
Actively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the gun separate to your plane's current trajectory given a manouvering delta border for the AoA between the two; current and next AoA and breaking that.
Passively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the plane as if the 108 is jousting pole or skewer at the end of your nose.
You will find the aces always use the latter unless they really want you dead, in that case they will use the former and jink around like a mad one behind you for the shot.
What you are talking about Latrobe is wanting to perform the latter, and similar to ramming someone, its more of a matter of the other person flying into your cone then you making them fly into yours.
If you get the subtle mental difference.
"To try to do something means you will generally miss, to not try to do something means you wont".
The 108 is the only real gun in the game that pronounces this type of shooting because its high rate of fire and 1 shot kill capacity (against most fighters). Which give mk108 users a sense of confidence that everyone else does not.
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Latrobe there are two ways to use the mk108, actively or passively.
Actively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the gun separate to your plane's current trajectory given a quota of manouvering delta for the AoA between the two; current and next AoA.
Passively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the plane as if the 108 is jousting pole or skewer at the end of your nose.
You will find the aces always use the latter unless they really want you dead, in that case they will use the former and jink around like a mad one behind you for the shot.
What you are talking about Latrobe is wanting to perform the latter, and similar to ramming someone, its more of a matter of the other person flying into your cone then you making them fly into yours.
If you get the subtle mental difference.
"To try to do something means you will generally miss, to not try to do something means you wont".
The 108 is the only real gun in the game that pronounces this type of shooting because its high rate of fire and 1 shot kill capacity (against most fighters). Which give mk108 users a sense of confidence that everyone else does not.
I understand all of this. My problem is I line up my "jousting pole" so that they are going to fly into my cone, but I end up missing because as they pass through my gunsight my tracers either pass just over them (over their wing since they're turning into me), or my tracers go just below them (past the other wing), or I actually get it lined up right but the 30's just don't connect (I think it's either the 30's passing just infront of them and then the next shot passes just behind them, or the 30's are taking too long to get there and they've already passed through the bullet stream). I'm wondering if there's some sort of technique that the tater aces use to ensure that they are on the right line up, or if it's just a matter of having good eye sight for flight paths.
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... it's just a matter of having good eye sight for flight paths.
Is the foundation of the above shooting principle of course, is what I mean.
Which is why although the aces will know most moves, if you present them with a move not in their known vocab, they miss every time.
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Lathrobe,
Offline fill all six drone slots with I16. Using only single taps, attack them from every conceivable angle and them some. Do this for 15 minutes every day prior to logging into the MA. The MK108's timing is completely different than the other auto cannon you shoot with. The I16 is so tiny you will be forced into a timing that will place rounds dead center of the normal rides in the MA. 200 and inside your aim point is about 6Mil low of center. 400 its about 12Mil low. lead is the bugger.
Like I said earlier, 350 will give you the flattest trajectory to 400 in relationship to the LoS that Hitech has programmatically setup in the game.
You can test this offline with the target. Remember that the red horizontal center line is the center line of your aircraft.
Set the K4 to auto level at 312 IA. This will level the cannon barrel to zero. Then shoot at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400 with the MK108 only. Make notes of the relationship between the center of your gunsight and the IP blob center. When you are finished, compare the trajectory of the rounds to the gunsight center as a trajectory graph. You will find before reaching 350, the trajectory passes high to drop into 350. Then almost the same amount low hitting 400.
Just remember this trajectory is not passing high of your aircraft. It's just passing high of your LoS which is angled down to account for having a cannon mounted into your engine. After all of these years, I've come to accept the less than 1 degree tilt Hitech allows through the engine block with the german auto cannons with his convergence program.
In real life they were bolted inline to the engine to bisect the prop plane at 90 degrees through a hollow tube set parallel with the engine crankshaft. Can't have a tiny grenade setting itself off in the blast tube. In flight at combat speeds in our game the dispersion and variable AoA at different alt and speeds blurs the small amount of convergence tilt Hitech allows.
I'm thinking of revisiting Yak gun mountings in the Kilmov engine. The mounting is taken directly form the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, Hispano-Suiza 404 20mm mounting solution. The cannon is bolted down to the top of the block between the cylinders with locking mounts. Not like the Dalmer-Benz, inserted from behind through a pre set hollow tube into the engine. From looking at a Hiss12Y from the front with a cannon mounted to it. There is enough clearance room in the reduction gear pass through to adjust almost a 1/2 degree across 360 because the reduction gear housing is mounted to the front of the block independent of the HS-404 mounting solution. Looks a lot like the arrangement in the P39.
I found a Russian reference to the Yak's 20mm being set to 200 in relationship to a sighting mark on the back of the prop that the pilot was supposed to eyeball his PBP\PBK reticle center against. I can concede the P39, Yak, D.520 had adjustable harmonization for an IP point now after what I have found. The reality of the tolerances involved makes a 200yd IP probably what was set and locked for the combat life of the aircraft's engine or the gun barrel. I suppose the NS-37 it was a miracle just to get that monster mounted to that tiny engine.
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Grizz's thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html
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Grizz's thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html
In simple English. Lead timing with the tater is based on spans of the canopy bars which is the core of Grizz's post.
Not many of you guys read manuals then..........
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I just can not figure this gun out. I tried grizz's way, I've tested convergences offline, shot at drones, and yet there is still something about the mk108 that just doesn't work for me. Some days I'm hitting crossing shots and pulling lead for kills at 400 icon range or more. Then other days I'm doing the exact same things, setting up shots the same way and pulling the same lead, and the 30mms just don't feel like hitting anything! This gun really is just the most unreliable thing I've ever used. I wish I could swap it out for the 20mm 151/20.
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This gun really is just the most unreliable thing I've ever used. I wish I could swap it out for the 20mm 151/20.
In the G-14, you can ;)
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I started shooting with twice the lead and found that helped ALOT! Even holding the trigger down for a fraction longer to start with
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In the G-14, you can ;)
I love my G14 soooo much! I even love my Emil more than my K4 too!
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I always looked at the Mk108 and it's unique ballistics properties as a canary to the quality of the Internet when I pulled the trigger made visible by the game code in my monitor.
Some days you can close your eyes and hit anything at 400.
Some days you can't even kill shoot yourself on a friend parked 100 feet away.
Then you always seem to hit something with a 20mm regardless of the internet's quality. Or even a 13mm.
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As I told buster, I take everythig I see as mental mesurments in planes lenthgs.
My much prefered method is move in close(200 is the most desirable) and and chop throttle a bit, and fire single rounds.