Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Plawranc on June 11, 2013, 11:29:18 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td8bF6Xgb_Y
Interesting documentary, the myth into reality.
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Yes the 109 was better than the Spit...
*Gets a lawn chair*
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/popcorn.gif)
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I hate programs like this with a narrator who really knows nothing other than a tidbit or two that he's read or seen on another program about specific things about these aircraft, things that any player of this game knows is ridiculous.
Example: The narrator here was correct about canon armament being an advantage, but him going on and on, mentioning at least 5 times that the 54 seconds of fire the 109 had was so superior to the 14.7 seconds of fire the Spitfire had....without him realizing that the canon fire only comprised maybe 8 or 9 seconds of that 54 seconds of the 109, and then the 109 was down to TWO mg's to the Spitfire's 8, of very similar caliber - then the Spitfire's armament had a massive advantage over the 109 for the remaining 45 seconds or so of his "54 seconds" nonsense.
The one great thing about this video was the quote from the British Spitfire pilot, "Actually, Hitler was OUR best general"...ahhaha. Awesome.
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^^ Yes the Narrator is irritating.
However you stay for all the actual facts in there. The British Pilots and German Pilots putting in their 0.02 on the battle.
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Example: The narrator here was correct about canon armament being an advantage, but him going on and on, mentioning at least 5 times that the 54 seconds of fire the 109 had was so superior to the 14.7 seconds of fire the Spitfire had....without him realizing that the canon fire only comprised maybe 8 or 9 seconds of that 54 seconds of the 109, and then the 109 was down to TWO mg's to the Spitfire's 8, of very similar caliber - then the Spitfire's armament had a massive advantage over the 109 for the remaining 45 seconds or so of his "54 seconds" nonsense.
Well... It would be 8 or 9 seconds of advantage to the 109, then 5.7 to 6.7 seconds of advantage to the Spit, then 39.3 to 40.3 seconds of total domination to the 109 as the Spit's guns are dry.
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You're right, and that's what I mean, but those 2 piddly 7.9 MG's certainly aren't going to dominate anything as the narrator was claiming. Once those 20mm's are gone, having 2 MG's that are sycro'd through the propeller aren't very lethal, and on their own compared to the 8 .303's are even worse. All I'm saying is that his statement that the 109's armament was vastly superior for 54 seconds isn't very accurate, and it should have been stated pretty much exactly how you put it, that if you're going to use time of fire to rate an aircraft's lethality, you need to more precise than just saying 54 seconds of awesomeness versus 17 seconds of lameness, as he put it.
I've read dozens of books regarding the BOB, and there is a great one I'm looking for that is written by a British pilot that puts a much less "rah rah the Few" spin on the war, and shows that the L/W was actually a lot more successful than many historians would lead you to believe. I've posted quotes from it on this BBS before, I'm trying to find the name right now. Anyhow, very similar to this video, it had a lot of interviews with L/W pilots and British pilots specifically regarding air combat and the 109/spit/hurri debate. Interesting stuff.
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Spitfire dry and defenseless... 109 spitting out 2,400 rounds per minute for another 40 seconds or so... It is a major advantage.
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Two World wars One World Cup :old:
Britain is awesome :old:
Norway is awesome as well in a Icelandic sort of way :)
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Haven't watched it yet but lemme ask: I thought that the consensus was the bob was Germany's to lose, and they did because they stopped attacking the airfields in favor of London etc. Yes? No?
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I would be inclined to think that a narrator is not really "claiming" anything, but rather reading from a script.
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The credits claim the narrator was the writer as well.
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Well... It would be 8 or 9 seconds of advantage to the 109, then 5.7 to 6.7 seconds of advantage to the Spit, then 39.3 to 40.3 seconds of total domination to the 109 as the Spit's guns are dry.
5-6 seconds for the 20mm cannons to run dry.
Highly unlikely for the full MG load on a Bf109 to be used. Not enough fuel endurance over the UK to generate 47 seconds worth of shots.
That said, the Bf109E-4's armament is superior to the Spitfire Mk I's. They both have strengths and weaknesses compared to each other, but in armament the 109 wins.
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Regardless of supposed German Engineering prowess, when decisions were decided by a Fat Bloke who was stealing art works and trying to impress a bloke who had one spud and and square moustache its not going to go well for a pilot :old:
You have got to feel sorry for the Germans they got fetled by a people who have culture of make do and incompetence, then again we had Churchill who liked a good booze up and slap up meal, recipe for victory :)
Cultural traits in WWII
Germany = Organisational ability/Moral instability
Britain = Incompetence and Make do/Moral stability
USA = Make it work and throw money at it/Puritan work ethic
France = Long Bread
Italy = Pasta
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MGFF > 520rpm or ~9rps with 60 rounds = almost 7 seconds
MG131 > 900rpm or 15rps with 1000 rounds = 66 seconds (no interrupter)
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Regardless of supposed German Engineering prowess, when decisions were decided by a Fat Bloke who was stealing art works and trying to impress a bloke who had one spud and and square moustache its not going to go well for a pilot :old:
You have got to feel sorry for the Germans they got fetled by a people who have culture of make do and incompetence, then again we had Churchill who liked a good booze up and slap up meal, recipe for victory :)
Cultural traits in WWII
Germany = Organisational ability/Moral instability
Britain = Incompetence and Make do/Moral stability
USA = Make it work and throw money at it/Puritan work ethic
France = Long Bread
Italy = Pasta
Long bread. :rofl
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MGFF > 520rpm or ~9rps with 60 rounds = almost 7 seconds
MG131 > 900rpm or 15rps with 1000 rounds = 66 seconds (no interrupter)
Wrong gun for E model.
MG17 > 1,200rpm with 1,000 rounds = 50 seconds (no synchronization)
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Cultural traits in WWII
Germany = Organisational ability/Moral instability
Britain = Incompetence and Make do/Moral stability
USA = Make it work and throw money at it/Puritan work ethic
France = Long Bread
Italy = Pasta
You forgot:
USSR: vodka!!!!
Japan: fighter pilots carrying swords
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USSR: Make it work and throw people at it/Genocidal work ethic.
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Wrong gun for E model.
MG17 > 1,200rpm with 1,000 rounds = 50 seconds (no synchronization)
See what lack of morning coffee does. :x
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:aok
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USSR: Make it work and throw people at it/Genocidal work ethic.
Yes :old:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td8bF6Xgb_Y
Interesting documentary, the myth into reality.
I prefer the reasoned approach of Richard Overy's excellent book "The Battle of Britain: The Myth and the Reality"...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Britain-Myth-Reality/dp/0393322971/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top (http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Britain-Myth-Reality/dp/0393322971/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)
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:salute
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L/W lost BoB for loads of reasons, all of which have been well argued previously:-
1. Hitler insisted on fighters escorting bombers closely at same altitude ie without height advantage.
2. British Radar.
3. Change in German target priority from airfields to London, just when airfields were almost on their knees.
4. Home advantage - Brit pilots bailing safely were reused, L/W bailed sent to Canada & died listening to Leonard Cohen (unverified by WW2 sources).
5. Bf 109 short range - 20mins combat max over UK.
6. German over confidence in ability of Bf 110 and Ju87 which performed well in mainland Europe Blitzkreig, but suffered badly in BoB against decent fighters, well organised.
More to do with tactics and strategy than plane superiority. Interestingly Hurricane (clearly inferior to 109) was highest scoring UK fighter, above Spit.
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3. Change in German target priority from airfields to London, just when airfields were almost on their knees.
Only for 11 Group and even then it was not really that bad. There was only 1 airfield that was knocked out and that was a satellite field on the coast.
The USAAF changed priorities in 1944 to eliminating the Lw over ground targets and it worked for them. What hurt the Lw was not enough fighters so they could use a relay system like the USAAF did.