Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jochen on May 02, 2000, 09:07:00 AM
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Just read the Fw 190A-5 thread and started to think issues regarding plane performance real life vs Aces High...
There are many more aspects in air combat than plane performance. Germans had huge success with their blitzkrieg concept even when their tanks were fewer and technically weaker in many cases than their enemies. Maybe this was case with Lufwaffe too? Planes may not have been the best but Lufwaffe had other strenghts.
Most of the Lufwaffe pilots were highly skilled and trained teamworkers with advanced tactics. They usually fight against much higher odds but they still were victorious.
Only one part of this equation is true in AH or any other WWII sim. Pilot skill, the ability to fly plane to it's limit and perform ACM. Other parts of the equation are usually nonexistent.
Teamwork is more than flying in huge packs killing lone enemies. It's dicipline and mutual support. You rarely see it in AH.
Tactics usually have very small part on outcome of fights in AH. In real life different planes (190 and 109) were deployed on different roles with their respective strenghts. Now you have Jabo missions without any escort or cover in area where enemy air activity is going to be present, this is rarely a good tactical thinking. Historically for example 190's were low doing the groundwork while 109's were up high providing top cover. How many times you have seen this in AH?
I dare to say this:
Give me eight skilled pilots and I will create a pack that can fight against anything effectively getting while kills and staying alive in situations which really existed in history. All this in "non competitive" Lufwaffe planes.
If the pilots know their planes like their own pockets, if they know the ACM, if they know the teamwork and if they know the tactics, they are damn hard to beat regardless what they fly! Wether it is 190 or 109! They may not win every time but atleast they will stay alive. That mattered most on real life but not here.
I had this fight last week, me in 190A-8 and two cons in Spit IX and M.205. I had slight initial alt advantage over both of them. We twisted and turned for more than 5 minutes wildly over the terrain, never above 1 km or 3 kft. I pinged them both nicely and forced the 205 to break away from the fight due damage, while Spit were still below me. I was running out of fuel and decided to RTB, despite the fact that it would have been easy to kill the crippled 205 but that would have subjected me to Spit guns for a short time. I didn't receive a single ping during the whole fight. The Spit were left eating my exhaust fumes, 190 is fast in grass level.
So, what's the point you might ask?
There are several points to make here:
- 190A-8 can dogfight, no matter what someone might say, if you know your plane's capabilites and fly according to it.
- Superioty in numberes can be beaten by superior tactics or ACM
- Dicipline keeps you alive.
If I would have had wingman with me, both enemies would have been dead. If there would have been four enemies in that fight against me and my wingman, I think we still might have come out as winners.
Enemies didn't have any coordination between them, they did fight agaisnt me as a two separate entities, not a single one. They could have easily beatne me if they would have coordinated their efforts a bit.
I didn't turn with the enemies, I used vertical maneuvers and superior roll rate of my plane. Also I did fight low where the 190 is at it's element. I knew my plane and used it like it was really used in war.
What I'm trying to say is this, you cannot judge performance of specific plane by looking it's historical kill to death ratios! 1 vs 1 fight has very few similarities to real word encounters. We might say that 190A-8 is useless because we can't fight in it like in other planes, yet it was decent plane for it's day during WWII. Just looking climb, speed and turn charts does not give the whole picture.
Hell, give me couple of dedicated Fw 190 pilots who want to fly like in real life, with dedication, with skill, with dicipline, and I can promise they will give you run for your money. They will have good K/D ratios and they will land their missions.
Lufwaffe planes are not very good at 1 vs 1 fighting, true, and they will never be if correctly modeled. They have disadvantages but they also have advantages! It's up to their pilots to use them like they should be used. Teamwork and tactics are propably the most important thing in war, yet in here it is almost nonexistent.
Don't compare real life and Aces High plane successes if you don't fly your plane like it was historically flown
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / D-9 to Aces High!
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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A schwarm of 109G10's will eat up any opposition, if flown by Experten (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
</end biased opinion meant as nothing more than that>
<insert standard disclaimer>
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Very well said Jochen. Hit the nail on the head. This applies in any sims main arena too btw..
-Westy
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The .50's and Hispanos sure are great. Flew the 51 the other night; compared to the 13mm's of the 109, they flew like laser beams and I greatly exaggerated the needed lead. Same with Hispanos. And the killing power! Absolutely stunning. I have new found respect for the makers of these very potent weapons. Then again, I have also newfound respect for the LW, who, it seems, used inferior planes with inferior guns, and still put up a hell of a fight.
So, if anyone would like to enlighen me, I would really appreciate it.
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StSanta
II/JG2
Were these posted by the same person?
pretty much states my feelings. I am somewhat successful in the LW planes and I know they are competitive. But when I fly the allied stuff I cant believe the germans could stand against it for 3 years.
Jochens point seems to be that the RAF were far inferior pilots. OK thats his opinion. I feel that the fw was probably better then it is here. Or the spit not as good. Certainly I think the allied guns were not as good as they are here. We will know more when the a5 is available I guess.
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Great Post Jochen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just like you said, the arena is not the real world. And even in the arena, if you stay disciplined and fly a plane to its fullest you will be successful.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hi
I was in one of the Spit's, though can only remember there being me and a 205... (think I shot u down before when I was in a F4U-C - one ping typical damage thingy...)
Anyway, I was really impressed with the 190! I was still trying to gain alt and kept having to turn to avoid being hit and then i'd lose all my E evading! When I did get to same alt I was about 2.5k away and you was after the 205, I went lower and you were keeping to the vertical plane and pulling away so fast and not once did you fight in the horizontal plane... so it made it very difficult for me and when I did get close the next moment you'd be pulling away like anything! You did hit my rudder so yep, did get me pretty well!
I'd be the first to say that I am a crap fighter pilot (spend most of my time in Buffs) but I did enjoy our little fight - probably the first time I realised just how quick the 190 was!
Regards
'Nexx'
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<S> Jochen!
Pongo -
First off <S> for not being irritable when I jump on every post you make.
I posted Pyro's visual aid again if you forgot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Comparing Hispano to MG 151/20 and M2 .50 cal to MG 131 is like comparing .308 NATO to .30 Carbine.
The kraut guns fire lighter rounds at lower velocity.
Muzzle kinetic energy of Hispano MK. II is 1.7 times that of the MG 151/20.
Muzzle kinetic energy of Browning .50 cal M2 is 2.0 times that of the MG 131.
Not only do the Hispano and Browning rounds pack a much bigger punch at the muzzle, they have better ballistic coefficients, which means they drop less.
I find that no matter which guns I use, if I hit stuff, it blows up. I think this is what the Luftwaffe found also. Hence they didn't see a need to install the bulkier and heavier guns and ammo used by the US and UK.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/ammo.gif)
Visual Aid. Left to right: .30-06 US, .303 British, 12.7mm Russian, .50 Cal US, 13mm MG 131, 15mm MG 151, 20mm MG 151/20, 20mm Hispano, 23mm VYa, 30mm MK 108, 30mm MK 103, 37mm BK 37.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
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Jochen,
Nice post! In my old WB squad the 900th, there were MANY occassions where 2 or 3 of us would be fighting alone against 5-10 or even more bogies, and we'd all go home w/ 3 or 4 kills and 5 assists.
There was the time the 900th flying p39's (the old 1.11 FM) beet the 901st flying 109's. Now it was down to the last 2 or 3 planes, but it was team work that won the fight for us. For those that don't know the 901st was one of the VERY BEST dueling squads in WB next to the 900th ofcourse <VBG>
t2 and myself flying p47 bested 7 190s that had a 5k alt advantage on us in a SL one time (killed 5 and sent the other 2 home smoking). All because of team work.
I do like this, in a furball w/ my squad I don't look for my own kills. I only kill people that are on the 6's of my squadies. I don't look for anything else except for a con on my 6. It's realy quite easy once you learn how to do it.
udie
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Jochen, you are right about tactics. But let me rave about the 190.
When I first started trying AH, I was hopeing there was a 190a4, for this was the better of the two when dogfighting 190 at lower and mid altitude. The 190 Dora rules at high alt. Anyhoo, AH has only the 190A8 modelled, which I use in the WB arena for buff hunting. The 190A8 was "KINDA" a pig, a lot of armament at the cost of manuverabilty. But I found that in our Historical arena, which most of us fly more intelligently than the MA, my squad and I used solid ACM and communications and reduced an evenly numbered bunch of P-51s at low level to scrap. I picked up your A8 in AH, flew like I was in the HA in WBs, and got two kills, including a B-17, my favorite thing to kill. I really haven't seen to much squad stuff yet in AH, but of course I have only been tryting it for a few days. But that is where a sim shines, when the pilots know their planes and their ACM, and communicate. You guys need to push for an A4, it would rule the roost.
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John "HEDU" Babarovich,JG26, Warbirds
Dedicated Bf109 driver
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Hedu,
We get the a5 in the next version (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AND I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5!!!!!!!
B E W A R E A L L W H E N I G E T M Y G R U B B Y H A N D S O N I T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Udie
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Great post, you really hit the nails head Jochen <hand clappings> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now, where do I sign up for this "Schwarm Nowotny"? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You do take trainees dont you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Nattulv
2.Lentueen Päällikkö
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"Olen vapaaehtoinen ruotsalainen lentäjä"
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Udie stop drooling all over the keyboard!
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Nice post Jochen.
"Don't compare real life and Aces High plane successes if you don't fly your plane like it was historically flown".
I think Torque was getting at the same thing when he said there are no uber planes, only uber pilots.
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So concensus is then that the Spit and Hispano are modeled correctly and the RAF was staffed by incompitents.
If that 8 man FW swarm forms I want a try out.
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Pongo, I didn't say anything was modeled correctly.
You said you were suprised that the Hispanos and Fifties were more powerful than the German guns.
I pointed out several cold hard facts that indicate you shouldn't be surprised.
If you want to demonstrate that the Hispanos are modeled incorrectly, here's how you might do it:
1. You quantify how strong it is in the game relative to the MG 151/20.
2. You quantify how strong it was in the war relative to the MG 151/20.
3. If the results of 1. and 2. disagree, you point it out to HTC.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
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Ya you are probably right. I would feel better about it if the 50 hadnt been hoped up after a wining campaign several versions ago. Found some new cold hard numbers I guess.
kinetic energy again funked.....these thing dont use it to kill remember funked....try to remember how the cannon works. Any kinetic energy that does not serve accuracy is wasted. chemical energy is used for the kill...try to remember...
that is why this load out appeared on ground attack planes. It really helps for AP atacks on tanks and trucks and trains..it is somewhat wasted on aircraft....
chemical energy funked
chemical energy
which round was more efficiently fuzed? where are your numbers on that....
how did there accuracy compare at 450-650 yards...1.7 times as much? I doubt it. Probably indistiguishable. I would admit that the M2 would hit way better at 1300 yards. but the pracitcal limitations should make that shot near imposible against fighters so why
The values that should be used to compare cannons on fighters for air to air use are.
Accuracy at reasonable ranges. 600?
probably should be little dif at that range. starts to go to the M2 after
Blast effecitveness of the round.
"HE. High Explosive rounds were traditionally made by boring out the core of a solid projectile, then filling it with explosive. The German Minengeschoß rounds introduced a different manufacturing technique: A thin shell was drawn, in the same way as a cartridge case is drawn. This resulted in a much larger explosive capacity for the same calibre, and became widespread after the war"
Hisp was somewhat weak in this area. 151 was renouned for it.
Rate of fire.
Only 100 rpm faster for the 151
Reliabilty.
Never a statement read about worry concerning unreliable 151s.
Opisite for the M2
Hard to put numbers on..Is the HE capability of the 151 1.7 times as good as the M2? hard to say.
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guns are accurate...
their effectiveness is uber due to one thing:
ICONS
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Pongo that's the kind of stuff I want you to post!
Don't force me to keep trolling to get you to say it!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-03-2000).]
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Cit..
Certainly the neon range finder is a big difference between here and WW2 that makes balanceing between historical accounts and arena results very difficult.
Could there be something else about gunnery effecitveness that they are missing.
I think one of the big problems with trying to quantify this kind of thing is that they didnt seem to want to dwell on it after the war. And People that have fired both sides guns in combat are rare.
BUT
I have never played any sim that felt as good as this one for gunnery modeling...
Its accuracy is phenominal, and I have learned a great deal about different guns in WW2 since starting to play the game.
But the Hispano still seems overdone. I even talked to a Beaufighter pilot about it and he said it was somewhat unreliable but hit ships like a hammer, unfortunatly he had little stick time on a 109 to compare it too the 151. Athough he got hit by a 20mm german shell(ack) and could attest to the damage caused by even one.
If there is some oversight in how velocity effects killing power using HE shells then the mk103 will certainly show it up as well.
By the measures I have seen and looking at how the M2 behaves in the game the 103 should be putting one of those mine shells onto a bomber or non manuvering fighter at 2k......The germans did not find it worth the weight for air to air use..but I bet we will..and look at the size of that round!
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Ditto. And not to be disparaging to other, skilled 109 AH experten, but if you want to see what it was like to fly like the real Abbeville Boys I'd strongly suggest flying with Hristos.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Yep Hristo flies like Hartman. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can't muster the patience to attempt it other than during scenarios, but it's great to see somebody practicing the art in the way it was done historically.
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Originally posted by funked:
Pongo, I didn't say anything was modeled correctly.
You said you were suprised that the Hispanos and Fifties were more powerful than the German guns.
I pointed out several cold hard facts that indicate you shouldn't be surprised.
If you want to demonstrate that the Hispanos are modeled incorrectly, here's how you might do it:
1. You quantify how strong it is in the game relative to the MG 151/20.
2. You quantify how strong it was in the war relative to the MG 151/20.
3. If the results of 1. and 2. disagree, you point it out to HTC.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
A 20mm is a 20 mm And it should make no diffrance only it hits target, case length and so on has nothing to do with it. Thats only balistic stuff, maybe it is even better if a explosive shell is slower. Making it a more "trusty" round. Ofcourse this is not true, talking about ap ammo, thats another story.
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BORK,BORK,BORK!!!"
Crabofix <What happend?...:A stranger morgie turndee burndee ,flip flip flip flip flip flip>
Flygflottlj.19(Lento R5)"swedish Gladiators"
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great thread.. wh'yd I have to find it at 3:00am??
Outstanding stuff there jochen.. There are many amongst us that on any given sortie can be found flying their AC in keeping with the appropriate tactics for the type. With appropriate results. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I love flyin against LW A/C flown the way ther're supposed to fly 'em (That damn G-10 just climbed away!!!...).. And lest ye forget, there's some good pony teams riding around, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Notably; for the bish, Rude and Yeager when teamed up are awe inspiring to watch.
As for the .50's on the allied A/C .. IMHO, they about right.. I can inflict severe damage with the icons on at 600 yards.. ping 'em reliably at 400 or less. (icons!)I think that they are doin a fair job at HTC with the guns at least. The various cannon types are all felt on my pony with similar effect. It flys apart. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Even little spit BB's tear me apart just fine; thank you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Getting good .50 cal fire performance takes patience and skill and appropriate convergence settings and it ain't easy gettin it all worked out for a good shot, and you know it! Sniping a guy outta the sky at 700 or more yards may sound outrageous, but truth be told I've never done it more than 3 or 4 times and it always cost me at least 1/2 my ammo to inflict enuff damage to count..
Who here routinely snaps up targets at 700 yards with .50 cal fire?? Anybody got more than a handful of these 'uber' kills? I've been punched outta the sky plenty of times by kannonen at 700 yards. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Spray and pray just don't work with the .50's... I've found that short 1 to 2 second (TOPS) bursts for effective fire can be delivered very accuratly.. long sustained bursts are wildly dispersed no matter how stable the sight picture and deflection being applied.
Finally, I think we're all shootin one hell of a lot better than out historical counterparts all things considered.. Icons most definitly have a big impact here.
(yawn) my 2 cents..
Hang