Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SOB on January 26, 2001, 08:05:00 PM
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We all know the guns of the B17 have a greater effective range than those of equivalent .50 cals on fighters, and I personally agree with this to help the lone bomber's survivability.
However, the recent Bish raid I was in got me thinking(here we go!). Would it make sense to have the range dropped back down to normal when flying in a formation of say 3 or more bombers? I'm not the greatest buff killer in the world, but even if I was I couldn't imagine diving in on a flight of 10 or even 5 B17s...well, I would, but I wouldn't expect to live through it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Would this be a nightmare for HT to try and program? Is this the dumbest idea in the world?
SOB
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The guns on fighters are just as long ranged.
The real advantage that bombers have is their turrets. They can take PRECISE aim at you, while you have to bob and weave to get your fire on target.
They also have the advantage of firing while your still outside of range, adjust their fire, and keep the lead comming your way. They've got the ammo to spare.
Thats why bombers can hit you.
Just don't come in straight at a bomber, but make a turning, slashing attack.
Hans.
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As Hans said the bombers are just a more stable gun platform than a fighters. The effective range on both the .50's on the fighters and the bomber is about 1,200yrds. If you mount a fifty on something real stable like a tank. You can set and lob rounds 2,000yrd+ into your target. It wouldn't be real effective that far out against anything but soft targets. Also as Hans said they can walk the tracers into you.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Cave, gunners don't get a boost to their absolute max range, but they do get a boost to their effective max range because we don't use fine hit detection with gunners.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000365.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000365.html)
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Originally posted by SOB:
We all know the guns of the B17 have a greater effective range than those of equivalent .50 cals on fighters, and I personally agree with this to help the lone bomber's survivability.
However, the recent Bish raid I was in got me thinking(here we go!). Would it make sense to have the range dropped back down to normal when flying in a formation of say 3 or more bombers? I'm not the greatest buff killer in the world, but even if I was I couldn't imagine diving in on a flight of 10 or even 5 B17s...well, I would, but I wouldn't expect to live through it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Would this be a nightmare for HT to try and program? Is this the dumbest idea in the world?
SOB
Well, if you will dive into the formation of b17s along with pack of fighters, it will be ok.
One fighter is not supposed to attack formation.
Though it is yet possible, and it was the biggest fun in AH I ever had. Find raid with fighter cover, get half of buffs, survive, and get the dammaged fighter back to home (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Cave, gunners don't get a boost to their absolute max range, but they do get a boost to their effective max range because we don't use fine hit detection with gunners."
Geez so that is why one fediddleing ping literally hits your whole plane & breaks it apart???!!
Pyro, if ye reading this, what would happen if the buff guns DID have "fine hit detection"?
The only buffs I consider BALANCED is the lancaster. Its guns will kill you if you give the turret gunner a good shot at you... Ju-88's shoot darts (needs a little help lol)..and the american buffs are death machines. You can only kill them if you surprise them or HO them. This needs some serious attention imho. Or let the buff have more human gunners like in Air Warrior (where Buffs are TRULY buffs!). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I think a fighter pilot has to figure out how to maximize pings on the bomber and stay out of the bombers rear zone where the fighters usually get killed. In my experience if a fighter has energy and attacks from beam or head on and follows with a climb and subsequent diving attack where the bomber presents more surface area to get pings on you have a good chance of killing it. If you try for a quick kill form the bombers six you will likely die. At least roll your fighter if you attack from 6 O'clock. It may take 3 or 4 passes to get a B17 or Lanc.
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most of the crys i see come from folks that get pissed when they come pulling up on a b-17s tale and get hosed at 1.3k,
well for started your an idiot for attacking it that way, second he is moving away from the bullets he fires and you are flying twords them and vice versa for you, it doesent take a rocket scientist to realize his guns are going to be more effective than yours becaue your are flying into his bullets and he is flying away from yours. Quit crying and get some tactics.
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I agree.
I fly bombers often. B-17s ARE excelent at shooting down idjits who come in from behind.
So, did you take the minute or two to get above your target? Did you come in from the side? Did you NOT try to park in one spot shooting at it? Did you aim for a wing tip? Did you dive away and repeat before the gunner could correct his aim?
Hans.
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Try this: fly a bomber and study the best attack posistion from the gunner stations - it doesn't take much effort to figure out the best attack.
It's up to you to have the patience to set up a good attack - when I use good tactics it equals a dead bomber unless the pilot uses good counter tactics against me.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Cave, gunners don't get a boost to their absolute max range, but they do get a boost to their effective max range because we don't use fine hit detection with gunners.
And so do you, SOB. You can ping things from too far away as well.
Hans.
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Hans...what in god's name are you talking about?
I brought up the point that bombers gunner positions have a greater effective range than equivalent guns on a fighter. Then, I asked if it would make sense to anyone to remove that extra effectiveness when bombers are flying in formation. I think it does, but I don't have a strong opinion about it either way.
Now you're telling me that I can ping things from far away too. With what?!? A fighter? My official Red Rider carbine action 200 shot range model air rifle? What's that got to do with what I asked?
SOB
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Hi speed top attack works best for me. Head on even better, but harder to set up. Get on top, zoom down open fire about 700 yards out... fly by quickly zoom up, repeat. Your angle will change too quickly for him to hit you. If unescorted, that's one dead buff.
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Originally posted by jihad:
Try this: fly a bomber and study the best attack posistion from the gunner stations - it doesn't take much effort to figure out the best attack.
supposedly, high 1 or high 11 isnt it?
Today I commited the sin to attack a buff with a P51, holding 10K from the start.
Did two passes from 1 o clock, first one two pings torn out an aileron. In the second pass the buff got a single ping. And I was back in the tower.
BTW I didnt recognize the handle, I.E. The guy can't have a lot of experience as gunner.
So long for the "high one o clock passes". I do attack some few buffs, but really wonder why to do it if it is not a lancaster or Ju88.
BTW HO passes dont work either. back in 1.01 I did one in a Fw190A8, and I died while the buff, while mauled, kept on flying. I posted it here in the BBS and the answer I got was "nah you were facing 4-6 MGs so its a normal outcome".
Oh, well...hehehe. guess that my four 20mm cannons didnt count (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Ive pinged and killed fighters that were in my hi 10 oc @ d1.2 when in a buff. And he was flying away from me many times.
If a gunner is watching you, you are very likely to be dead before you can even get to firing range. Hi angle/hi speed attacks, weaving attacks, whatever wont work if the gunner pings you once. thats all he needs.
I usually try to attack from hi 12 or from 11oc/1oc LOW at high speed (after diving to get that speed of course). It only works when the gunner is switching between guns and cant aim at you. That is the whole point of the stupidity of AH's buff guns. Gunner needs one ping to kill fighter and the fighter has to "game the game" and keep the gunner switching guns so he can close and fire.
Anyone saying that you have to get a "tactic" to attack buff is sadly deluded. Its not a tactic, its gaming the game. If AH's buffs had manned guns like Air Warrior, that "tactic" you use would be inefective.
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uhh... "fine hit detection" sounds to me like an increase in the bullet radius. This would compensate for the fact that bomber guns are set to convergence (which, btw, is the reason that dead-12 attacks are foolish). It would also make up for lag issues. Buff guns are more effective at range because they're easier to hit with. Instead of shooting beach balls, you're shooting Prisoner spheres.
The merits of this solution aside, removing it when buffers fly in groups would be counterproductive: whatever threshhold distance between the planes would become the minimum bomber separation; buffs would fly in 2x2 elements, and so forth.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-27-2001).]
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SOB, your implying that the Bombers use a different ballistics model than the rest of the game.
I am telling you I don't beleave you.
It looks to me that the .50 cals in the bombers are NOT different in any way from the .50 cals used anywhere else in the game. M3 halftracks, P51, and B-17 shoot the same thing. They all have a too high rate of effectiveness at long ranges, not just bomber guns.
Hans.
[This message has been edited by Hans (edited 01-27-2001).]
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<sirens and big flashing lights go off!>
Dinger, as the first person (after 14 responces) to actually respond to the point of this thread's existance you are the grand prize winner! If you make it to the next con, you'll be getting a cool frosty one on me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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Originally posted by Hans:
SOB, your implying that the Bombers use a different ballistics model than the rest of the game.
I am telling you I don't beleave you.
The .50 cals in the bombers are NOT different in any way from the .50 cals used anywhere else in the game. M3 halftracks, P51, and B-17 shoot the same thing. They all have a too high rate of effectiveness at long ranges, not just bomber guns.
Hans.
First of all, I'm not implying anything, I'm stating it as fact. Second of all, this thread isn't about whether it's a fact or not.
This is a quote from Pyro. "Cave, gunners don't get a boost to their absolute max range, but they do get a boost to their effective max range because we don't use fine hit detection with gunners."
This is a quote from me. "We all know the guns of the B17 have a greater effective range than those of equivalent .50 cals on fighters, and I personally agree with this to help the lone bomber's survivability."
In this particular quote I'm stating in my own words what Pyro stated in the above quote. No more, no less. If you choose not to believe it, great, argue with Pyro about it. I on the other hand tend to believe it, since he has a hand in the development of this particular game.
SOB