Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on June 22, 2013, 08:50:56 AM
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There are a small number of aircraft in AH in which WEP makes a much larger difference than it does for most. I decided, due to boredom, to put their speed and climb charts up in a thread. I used the P-38G as the baseline because the charts won't generate without a comparison aircraft, the P-38G lacks WEP and I liked the graph speeds when I used the P-38G. For these aircraft their performance on WEP is frequently what makes them good and when it runs out they drop to middle of the pack or even worse.
The Bf109G-14 performs exactly the same as the Bf109G-6 when on MIL, but kick in WEP and it is closer to the Bf109K-4 in performance. Fortunately it has ten minutes of WEP.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=84&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=84&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The Mosquito Mk VI is the fastest twin engined piston fighter in the game when at low altitudes, so long as it has WEP. Without WEP even the P-38G is faster. Keep in mind that the climb performance chart is for a fully laden Mosquito VI with 100% fuel and ordnance which makes the chart worse than what you encounter when fighting one in fighter trim on 50% fuel and no ordnance.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=57&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=57&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The engine in the P-47s M and N produces the same power as the engine in the P-47D-40 when on MIL, but kick in WEP and you get an extra 500hp or so. This makes the P-47M the best P-47 for air-to-air in the game and the P-47N the best all round P-47, as long as it has WEP.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=102&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=102&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=83&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=83&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The Spitfire Mk XIV is still fairly fast and climbs well on MIL, but it is nothing special and will be handily out performed by a large number of other fighters, but kick in WEP and for the five minutes that it lasts you have a fast fighter, particularly at higher altitudes, with tremendous climb and acceleration performance.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=64&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=64&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The Ta152H-1 goes from a bad climbing, average speed fighter to a good climbing, fast, particularly up high, fighter when its ten minute WEP is kicked in. The Ta152H-1's climb rate using MIL is well below what we expect of a 1945 single engined fighter.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=40&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=40&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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The Ta152H-1 goes from a bad climbing, average speed fighter to a good climbing, fast, particularly up high, fighter when its ten minute WEP is kicked in.
In my opinion, the Ta-152H is the true "WEP Monster" not just because of the performance gain, but because of the unique WEP cycle of 10 minutes use / 5 minutes cooldown phase.
That really makes a huge difference, particularly when hunting down high altitude bombers (especially the B-29). When upping for, say, strat raiders, the 152 can unscrupulously use all it's WEP from the start for its climbout. It will take it to ~25k-28k, and after only 5 minutes the WEP is fully restored again.
Compared to that, a P-47M or a Spitfire 14 pilot will have to be very considerte when use their WEP option with a cycle of 5/10 or 5/15 minutes. Especially for the Spit it's really a "one-shot" sort of thing.
(Theoretically, a Ta 152H can use 40mins of WEP during one hour of flight, while a Spit 14 only 15 minutes)
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I agree with Lusche, the 152 is the WEP monster of the game.
However the WEP still needs to be managed properly as it is extremely important for the aircraft during combat.
:salute
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Thanks karnak :salute
Yes the 152 is a munster wth wep.
Anyon know know how much more horse power if any the K4 has over the g14?
And why do the M jug and 4hog get like 1-2 minutes of extra loiter time with wep engaged???
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And why do the M jug and 4hog get like 1-2 minutes of extra loiter time with wep engaged???
Their WEP works by water injection. One by-product of that is increased fuel efficiency.
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(Theoretically, a Ta 152H can use 40mins of WEP during one hour of flight, while a Spit 14 only 15 minutes)
That makes it less of a "WEP monster". I mean is this "emergency power" when you can use it 2/3 of the time? In practice it is available 100% of the time unless you insist to climb and cruise with WEP engaged non stop. At some point "WEP" becomes just a semantic - look at the Yak9u, does it have 100% WEP or none at all? Technically it has no WEP, but you get the typical WEP performance of 1945 planes on full MIL.
Spit14 and Mossie VI can barely recharge WEP. Unless you plan on a long cruise during which you can cool it, engaging WEP for extended periods during climbing or cruising is suicidal. I use it will about 5K (less than 2 minutes) and then let it cool on the rest of the climb and cruise which usually take at least 6 minutes more so it is full up when getting into combat. A Mossie without WEP will be run down even by N1Ks, by every spit model above 5 and you know that EVERYONE within 6.0 distance want a piece of that red MOSS neon sign. These two planes are the real "5 minute wonders". The M/N jugs are next on the list with a somewhat better recharge rate.
For some other planes the WEP is not so impressive on paper, but that still makes the difference between a challenging ride and a down right awful one. Ask the 190A8 experts...
Edit:
I now officially name my Mossie VI the "Wooden 5-minute wonder".
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I still don't get why Merlins in British aircraft take 15 minutes to recharge WEP and Merlins in American aircraft take 10 minutes. It doesn't matter where the Merlin was made as the American built Merlin 266 in the Spitfire Mk XVI takes as long to recharge as the British built Merlin 66 in the Spitfire Mk VIII.
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I still don't get why Merlins in British aircraft take 15 minutes to recharge WEP and Merlins in American aircraft take 10 minutes. It doesn't matter where the Merlin was made as the American built Merlin 266 in the Spitfire Mk XVI takes as long to recharge as the British built Merlin 66 in the Spitfire Mk VIII.
Would that be due to the oil and water cooling system in each aircraft?
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In my opinion, the Ta-152H is the true "WEP Monster" not just because of the performance gain, but because of the unique WEP cycle of 10 minutes use / 5 minutes cooldown phase.
That really makes a huge difference, particularly when hunting down high altitude bombers (especially the B-29). When upping for, say, strat raiders, the 152 can unscrupulously use all it's WEP from the start for its climbout. It will take it to ~25k-28k, and after only 5 minutes the WEP is fully restored again.
Compared to that, a P-47M or a Spitfire 14 pilot will have to be very considerte when use their WEP option with a cycle of 5/10 or 5/15 minutes. Especially for the Spit it's really a "one-shot" sort of thing.
(Theoretically, a Ta 152H can use 40mins of WEP during one hour of flight, while a Spit 14 only 15 minutes)
I find this troubling... The Ta 152 had MW-50 for lower altitudes, and GM-1 for high altitude. However, I cannot imagine that it could carry enough of either for 40 minutes of usage. Water/methanol injection has a finite limit due to the capacity of the tank. Ditto for the GM-1 bottle. When it's gone, it should be gone for the balance of the flight.
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I find this troubling... The Ta 152 had MW-50 for lower altitudes, and GM-1 for high altitude. However, I cannot imagine that it could carry enough of either for 40 minutes of usage.
According to my sources, the MW-50 tank carried 115l and the MW consumption was at 150l/h ...
I also remember the GM-1 endurance to be around 40 mins as well, but I will have to look it up again.
EDIT Ok, GM-1 seems to geive much less endurance. I just read that the flow could be set at 3 different settings, 60 120 or 150 g/s. In the Ta 152 the GM-1 tank had 85l of liquid N2O, so if my rudimentary memory doesn't lie to me thats about 100kg. So endurance would be between ~10 and 30 minutes.
Will dig for some more info.
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My Dad was an was a mechanic during ww2. He said that water injection was an engine's worst enemy. The mechanics knew which pilots abused it more than others.
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My Dad was an was a mechanic during ww2. He said that water injection was an engine's worst enemy. The mechanics knew which pilots abused it more than others.
Considering how many planes we pumped out, I doubt the pilots would care either since it was life or death.
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Would that be due to the oil and water cooling system in each aircraft?
No. If it were it would vary by aircraft, not by nation.
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According to my sources, the MW-50 tank carried 115l and the MW consumption was at 150l/h ...
I also remember the GM-1 endurance to be around 40 mins as well, but I will have to look it up again.
EDIT Ok, GM-1 seems to geive much less endurance. I just read that the flow could be set at 3 different settings, 60 120 or 150 g/s. In the Ta 152 the GM-1 tank had 85l of liquid N2O, so if my rudimentary memory doesn't lie to me thats about 100kg. So endurance would be between ~10 and 30 minutes.
Will dig for some more info.
In game, shouldn't MW-50/GM-1/ADI be proportional to the arena fuel burn rate? I would think it should be. If the arena burn rate is 2.0, that should double the MW-50/GM-1/ADI burn rate as well.
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Found something of more substance regarding the Ta-152H's WEP
"With a rate of consumption of 150l/hr the supply of 70 liters provided an operational duration of about 28 minutes (...) With an average consumption of 100g/sec, the operating duration of the GM-1 system was good 17 minutes."
(The 70l MW50 tank was located in the wing, while the 85l GM-1 tank was in the fuselage)
Source: Harmann, Dietmar Focke Wulf Ta 152. Schiffer 1999, page 71
The 115l MW50 tank I mentioned earlier was actually installed in the fuselage of other 190 variants using this system.
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In game, shouldn't MW-50/GM-1/ADI be proportional to the arena fuel burn rate? I would think it should be. If the arena burn rate is 2.0, that should double the MW-50/GM-1/ADI burn rate as well.
That's some grey area right now. One could argue that planes not requiring any additional subtances for WEP could then enjoy an advantage they never had in real life.
As it is, all WEP of all planes are modeled in a very generic (and, to me, not always exactly comprehensible) way and the TA 152 doesn't actually consume any MW or N2O. And also it doesn't get lighter when "consuming" this non existant stuff.
If you wanna introduce such details for this plane, I'd say the whole WEP system in AH would need a redesign
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If you wanna introduce such details for this plane, I'd say the whole WEP system in AH would need a redesign
I would say that an overhaul of WEP programming is long overdue. An old gripe for example: Of all R2800 powered aircraft, only 3 show a reduction in fuel consumption when running ADI.
Yes, the WEP duration, cool-down time and water/methanol capacity should be examined and adjusted as required.
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I would say that an overhaul of WEP programming is long overdue. An old gripe for example: Of all R2800 powered aircraft, only 3 show a reduction in fuel consumption when running ADI.
Yes, the WEP duration, cool-down time and water/methanol capacity should be examined and adjusted as required.
We tend to wish what is bad for others and good for us. I wish 190 wings would come off in a dive. :lol
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If ADI consumption isn't modeled then these birds are flying with, in some cases, hundreds of pounds of added weight that never gets reduced.
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We tend to wish what is bad for others and good for us. I wish 190 wings would come off in a dive. :lol
they do, once you get it to the point of shaking really good, pull back on the stick real hard...
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We tend to wish what is bad for others and good for us. I wish 190 wings would come off in a dive. :lol
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,347332.0.html
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Let us not forget the 190D
Under military power it is good. With WEP it is awesome :rock
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=44&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=81&p2=44&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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We tend to wish what is bad for others and good for us. I wish 190 wings would come off in a dive. :lol
They can if you really crank back on the stick :uhoh
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I would say that an overhaul of WEP programming is long overdue. An old gripe for example: Of all R2800 powered aircraft, only 3 show a reduction in fuel consumption when running ADI.
Yes, the WEP duration, cool-down time and water/methanol capacity should be examined and adjusted as required.
I would agree WEP ( or more accurately combat setting) on Lavochkins was not just a power setting. It also involved trimming the engine cooling vanes to reduce drag. This could be done independently of engine power setting.
Whilst I may not wish for massive engine management stuff a consideration of Lavochkin WEP being both power and drag orientated may render more interesting outcomes.
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I would agree WEP ( or more accurately combat setting) on Lavochkins was not just a power setting. It also involved trimming the engine cooling vanes to reduce drag. This could be done independently of engine power setting.
Whilst I may not wish for massive engine management stuff a consideration of Lavochkin WEP being both power and drag orientated may render more interesting outcomes.
Most planes had independent control over the state of the cooling flaps of the engine/radiators. Pilots could close them and hit WEP at the same time, but I do not know what this would do to the engine. AH does not model this and just use fixed drag coefficients. The important thing in term of gameplay is that the final performance in speed/climb matches the real test data.
If this is achieved by having a little to much horsepower that offsets a little too much drag, then this is still a good approximation. The other option is much more complex engine management, and modeling that needs to calculate engine cooling at various combinations of radiator/cowling flaps, engine setting and airspeed. I suspect that this would be a significant modeling effort that will give little net gain in "realism". I'd love to have it if it is feasible.
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And 20 perks per barrel of high ocatane gas :old:
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My Dad was an was a mechanic during ww2. He said that water injection was an engine's worst enemy. The mechanics knew which pilots abused it more than others.
I say whatever keeps 'em alive...
:old: They can fix the aircraft or replace the engine.
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We tend to wish what is bad for others and good for us. I wish 190 wings would come off in a dive. :lol
I wish our 190A5 could use the higher ata that it was cleared for in (IIRC) 1943. I wish all my planes had more of their ordnance options too.
On a more serious note, one would think that such a system would give a large advantage to aircraft with water injection, since sorties rarely last long enough to run out, in the case of the Ta 152.
If the 109s had a similar duration, they could run wep for the entire sortie, since their internal fuel capacity only gives about 1/2 hr on mil power.
A K4 with WEP performance for the entire sortie would really be a sight to see. The jugs could probably run WEP for a typical sortie in AH as well; P-47M might become even more common for that reason alone.