Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DH367th on June 22, 2013, 12:43:39 PM
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Hope none of our friends hurt Dayton airshow. wing walker crashed looks bad for the pilot and wingwalker. Show been cancelled hope no one else hurt
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I hope no one got hurt as well.
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I've just seen the video, the pilot and wing walker didn't stand a chance unfortuntely, however it doesn't appear that anyone else was injured.
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Hope none of our friends hurt Dayton airshow. wing walker crashed looks bad for the pilot and wingwalker. Show been cancelled hope no one else hurt
I just watched it on liveleak. No one lived through that. It was brutal. =(
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I've just seen the video, the pilot and wing walker didn't stand a chance unfortuntely, however it doesn't appear that anyone else was injured.
Must be this one was posted today on Tube; :pray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecar7RfrmqI
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Didn't look like the kind of weather to be doing that sort of thing.
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I saw her perform a couple of years go. Very sad. I am glad I did not see today's crash in person.
Video of the crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEI4XX_RxVI
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Jesus christ! All of our guys there! This is the second year in a row someone has crashed there!
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Didn't look like the kind of weather to be doing that sort of thing.
How's that?
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it looked to me like the plane was veering towards the stands.
rather than risk the audience for a chance at correction/survival,
the pilot chose to just put it down.
heart wrenching. :pray
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Looks like a stall.
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Looks like a stall.
Agee, low altitude, inverted stall. Unwinable combination. Very sad.
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Puma sir was he trying roll that bird back upright when the wing clipped?
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I was there. Stall. Definitely. The wing dropped likely because it was an asymmetric stall/beginning of a spin, likely due to her additional weight on that wing.. (pure speculation of course) Also note, though very hard to see in the videos, right as the plane rolls inverted, there is quite a puff of smoke from the exhaust, which was much more plain in person. They had not been running smoke system at that point in the act (if at all) so I dont believe it was that. I believe (again speculation based on what I saw) there was an engine malfunction of some sort (just as they rolled inverted) which led to a stall, and the wing dropping (heavy side, with Jane's weight and additional drag, causing it to stall first). This i believe because if you notice in the video, the ailerons are deflected opposite of the roll, indicating an instictive reaction to counter an unwanted roll.
Again, speculation, but that is my belief based on my presence, and the video.
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*also posted in reply to thread in General Discussion)*
I was there. Stall. Definitely. The wing dropped likely because it was an asymmetric stall/beginning of a spin, likely due to her additional weight on that wing.. (pure speculation of course) Also note, though very hard to see in the videos, right as the plane rolls inverted, there is quite a puff of smoke from the exhaust, which was much more plain in person. They had not been running smoke system at that point in the act (if at all) so I dont believe it was that. I believe (again speculation based on what I saw) there was an engine malfunction of some sort (just as they rolled inverted) which led to a stall, and the wing dropping (heavy side, with Jane's weight and additional drag, causing it to stall first). This i believe because if you notice in the video, the ailerons are deflected opposite of the roll, indicating an instictive reaction to counter an unwanted roll.
Again, speculation, but that is my belief based on my presence, and the video.
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It appears to be wing drop at the beginning of a stall. In real world flying, most aircraft will wing drop one way or the other, depending on several factors. At that low altitude, it would seem unlikely that the pilot would try to roll up right without sufficient airspeed. It appears that the airspeed was too low as he rolled inverted or it decayed while inverted. At that point the pilot was in a square corner with no options. Airspeed decay, stall, wing drop, oh .......!
This was very gut wrenching to watch. In no way judging the pilot or his thought process, just an observation of what appeared to transpire.
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It appears to be wing drop at the beginning of a stall. In real world flying, most aircraft will wing drop one way or the other, depending on several factors. At that low altitude, it would seem unlikely that the pilot would try to roll up right without sufficient airspeed. It appears that the airspeed was too low as he rolled inverted or it decayed while inverted. At that point the pilot was in a square corner with no options. Airspeed decay, stall, wing drop, oh .......!
This was very gut wrenching to watch. In no way judging the pilot or his thought process, just an observation of what appeared to transpire.
Precisely what I was saying.
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Precisely what I was saying.
While I was typing in response to DH's question you obviously posted in the interim. Must have been horrific to see and hear it happen in person. After looking at the video again, there's quite a bit of yaw during the roll to inverted, possible indicating low airspeed and definitely contributing to airspeed decay.
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How's that?
Looked cloudy, for me that looked like turbulent air.
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Looked cloudy, for me that looked like turbulent air.
Cloudy doesn't necessarily mean turbulent air. Turbulent air is not necessarily a show stopper unless it's accompanied by strong winds that are beyond the crosswind limits of the participating aircraft. :salute
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Cloudy doesn't necessarily mean turbulent air. Turbulent air is not necessarily a show stopper unless it's accompanied by strong winds that are beyond the crosswind limits of the participating aircraft. :salute
Weather was not a factor. While there were a few pop up showers in the area, the wind was relatively light, and very steady. That was not weather induced. That was a stall.
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Anyone else see the smoke pop out of the engine???
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it looked to me like the plane was veering towards the stands.
rather than risk the audience for a chance at correction/survival,
the pilot chose to just put it down.
heart wrenching. :pray
More than likely the pilot had no choice or control of where the aircraft was going after the inverted stall occurred.
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Anyone else see the smoke pop out of the engine???
Are you asking if anyone other than me saw it? I saw it... Don't know if it had anything to do with it, but there was a puff of smoke. Brief, and subtle, but it was there. Ill grab a video from youtube and try to run it through sony vegas to highlight what im talking about when I say what I saw (smoke, aileron inputs, etc) if you folks would like me to.
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Are you asking if anyone other than me saw it? I saw it... Don't know if it had anything to do with it, but there was a puff of smoke. Brief, and subtle, but it was there. Ill grab a video from youtube and try to run it through sony vegas to highlight what im talking about when I say what I saw (smoke, aileron inputs, etc) if you folks would like me to.
would be easier to point out if slowed down.
But man that sucks. Least they went out doing what they love
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im kinda hoping a higher resolution video gets posted, im curious to see the control surface movements on the elevator and rudder as well.
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The puff of smoke could been a normal result of power change by the pilot. It doesn't appear to be an indication of engine trouble based on the sound of the engine as it impacted the ground. Hard to say though. No doubt the pilot would not have rolled inverted if he had an indication of an engine problem.
Anyone here have current time in the same aircraft and/or similar round engines?
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Disregard, double post.
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No, but remember, there is quite a bit of lag between when a sound occurs in an airplane at an airshow, and when the sound reaches the audience. (this is very obvious while at a show, as a plane will pass by and then you hear it, etc etc) So, it is quite possible, we heard the engine issue after we saw the plane impact, which would appear that the engine died on impact, but if you think about it, the engine noise would have continued (to our ears) for some time after seeing the impact (due to the difference in sound speed, and light speed). The most bizzare thing to me was the near complete lack of the expected thud, or crash noise. YOu never heard the impact.
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Are you trying argue just for the sake of arguing? The impact is obvious. There is sound and yes there is sometimes lag of sound at air shows. Where you standing at the same relative position of the video recorder or at a different angle?
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so sad to watch , and thank you Puma for the explanation i trust your knowledge sir
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Are you trying argue just for the sake of arguing? The impact is obvious. There is sound and yes there is sometimes lag of sound at air shows. Where you standing at the same relative position of the video recorder or at a different angle?
Absolutely not trying to jsut argue. Just giving a viewpoint from someone who was present. It was definitely a stall, and impact, however, at my seat, int he Chalet area, I did NOT hear the impact itself, only the engine noise continuing post-impact, therefore it would be impossible for me to say when the engine cut out, if it did. Againa s my psot said, this is pure speculation on my part based on what I saw, and heard. Keep in mind, that especially in a radial engine, an engine malfunction does not necessarily mean an instant engine out, it could have continued running, at reduced power output, which could contribute. It also could be a case of the pilot simply got too slow, or failed to take into account density altitude. (it was 90 deg today)... all we have now is speculation, and thats all I am doing right now, however, I think we can agree it appears to almsot certainly been an inverted stall. no matter what, if any, contributing factors there were.
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Least they went out doing what they love
I hate that saying. Hate hate hate it. She died terrified with her arms covering her face probably thinking about what her family will do now.
I had the honor of meeting Jane at SnF last year - you would not meet a nicer or more caring person. General aviation and the airshow community suffered a great loss today.
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Very upsetting to watch.
It is also sad that some of our community gets together to have a good time in person, then something terrible happens that most likely has a negative impact on what should be a happy time.
Unlikely, but... I actually hope the majority did not witness this accident.
Prayers to the families.
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I hate that saying. Hate hate hate it. She died terrified with her arms covering her face probably thinking about what her family will do now.
I had the honor of meeting Jane at SnF last year - you would not meet a nicer or more caring person. General aviation and the airshow community suffered a great loss today.
tis a terrible saying
but if I were to die racing a bike, or cliff diving and
jumpnig, that's how I'd like to be remembered
going out doing what I love to do.
No disrespect was intended. I've seen enough terrble deaths drawn out in person to want this.
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Such a tragedy, for those concerned about AH family in the area, I know at least 10-12 of us were at a different airstrip and did not witness the accident.
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tis a terrible saying
but if I were to die racing a bike, or cliff diving and
jumpnig, that's how I'd like to be remembered
going out doing what I love to do.
No disrespect was intended. I've seen enough terrble deaths drawn out in person to want this.
I would want the same - we have lost 3 great wing walkers in the same amount of years. This death was far more desirable than the others.
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Looked to me that as he rolled he tagged zero G for a second, and the engine coughed right before the plane was stabilized inverted. It was still descending, never quite leveled off inverted. From the control surface positions, it looks like he tried to abort but had no upwards vector and pulled the stick nearly full aft before he rolled to less than 90 deg bank, so the nose dropped fairly rapidly with a high sink rate. Basically he aborted the inverted pass but did not have the necessary altitude to do so at that time, and hit the ground still attempting to roll back upright. The elevator is pretty far up so his roll rate may have been reduced by pulling it into a stall during the attempted rollout.
There could have been a zillion other things going wrong that we can't see from the video. It didn't look like he was using much rudder during either of the rolls, even though that could have helped with the roll rate or to keep the nose up, decreasing the sink rate. He didn't pause inverted to push the nose up before the abort, which tells me that he felt ground collision or some other catastrophic event was imminent and worth the risk of the abort. I don't think he ever arrested the sink rate caused by the initial roll to inverted so they were doomed the instant he decided to abort the inverted pass.
My best guess would be the engine sputtered a bit and he aborted prior to ensuring he was climbing away from the ground, resulting in too much altitude loss during the attempted rollout. Pulling the stick too far back too soon may have aggravated the situation but they were already dead the instant he started the rollout before getting an upward vector away from the ground.
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Nothing about that video looks like an inverted stall to me. Not one thing. The nose track, etc. all looks consistent with the stick coming aft too early as he attempts to roll back upright.
CNN had a slightly different video posted that very clearly showed the control surface positions. The ailerons were positioned to roll out the aircraft and the elevator was deflected up far beyond neutral.
If it was a stall the nose likely would have hung up a bit instead of snapping down like that and we would have seen some yawing of the aircraft. It was going too fast and not "mushing" enough for it to be a stall. You can see her arm fly up as well, telling me that she was subjected to enough Gs to make her arm fly up. She had much better control of her limbs prior to that, and the G forces during a stall would not have made her arm fly up like that.
In any case, it's a shame. They had a great airshow act. Tragedy all around.
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All i have is a grainy 320p to go on, what looked like opposite aileron input could simply be a video artifact. Thats why in the other thread i said i am hoping fr higher res video... if the aileron is with the direction of roll, then i agree, not a stall. Id also like to be able to discern the elevator positioning. eagl, could you pm me a link to that better angle? Im curious to check it out... :salute sir.
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At an air show in Ohio 2 people were killed at 12:45 p.m. at the Vectren Air Show near Dayton. The engine seemed to have stalled out and the aircraft while inverted crashed killing both people instantly. The pilot and the wing walker performing their stunt crashed into the ground in front of the people at the air show. I remember seeing this exact group before perform at an Air Show in my city awhile back, and it just shocks me to see this. I got inspired to be a pilot from air shows like these, and without them I wouldn't even be on a site like this. I guess the way I wanna look at it right now though is that they died doing what they loved best, being in the air.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/22/plane-with-wing-walker-crashes-at-ohio-air-show/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/22/plane-with-wing-walker-crashes-at-ohio-air-show/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N4r78-Z4jM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N4r78-Z4jM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIpdrGpXlo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIpdrGpXlo)
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yup, saw it already...not as obviously titled though.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350305.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350305.0.html)
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What a shame.
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i saw the puff. it also appeared as if the aircraft never really stabilized inverted. it didn't look as if it got level. the nose looked high. it looked like the wing that she was on dropped as if in a stall, followed immediately by the nose pitching down suddenly. the videos i can find, i can't see any of the control positions......
:pray
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4th thread.
se
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All i have is a grainy 320p to go on, what looked like opposite aileron input could simply be a video artifact. Thats why in the other thread i said i am hoping fr higher res video... if the aileron is with the direction of roll, then i agree, not a stall. Id also like to be able to discern the elevator positioning. eagl, could you pm me a link to that better angle? Im curious to check it out... :salute sir.
CNN vid:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/topvideos/2013/06/22/dayton-airshow-crash.whio
It stops right before ground impact.
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I went back to the show today... amazing to me, the only acknowledgement of the accident was a brief moment of silence before the opening ceremonies of the show.. I dunno, just seemed to me it should have been mentioned, and/or some sort of tribute flyover made today... maybe thats just me... and maybe they didnt want to dampen the "mood" of today's show. All in all it was a great show, considering the lack of military support.. apart from yesterday of course. Got to see a lot of great extreme aerobatics by some of the greats, including Sean D Tucker, and Skip Stewart... I did miss the roar of the mil jets though. Hopefully tings will be back to normal for next year's show. Photos to come.
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I just saw a pic of the plane upon impact just before the fireball....sad to see :salute :angel:
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After watching the video again, it almost looks like the pilot sensed the airspeed decay and/initial buffet and attempted to quickly roll upright and get the lift vector pointed away from the ground. With the airspeed possibly too low, the rolling motion resulted in loss of lift, nose drop, and impact.
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the only two people who will know is Jane and the pilot! but they died doing what they loved! <S> unlike Nascar people don't go to an airshow to see crashes! and I sure wouldn't have wanted to see that in person, its hard enough to watch the video!
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:salute :salute :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :angel: :angel: :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :salute :salute
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Video of a 2011 airshow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwHVErpsOsU
Same maneuver at 11:10. Also, note "puffs" of smoke during landing rollout from smoke system.
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Video of a 2011 airshow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwHVErpsOsU
Same maneuver at 11:10. Also, note "puffs" of smoke during landing rollout from smoke system.
Fair enough, as i said i was just speculating. :salute
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Was that the first inverted maneuver? It looked like a stall to me as well.
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R.I.P. :salute
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I just pulled in the video from another angle into vegas, and watched it frame by frame. The elevator clearly moves to command nose up (airframe relative) and the ailerons command a roll in the direciton the aircraft rolled. This was NOT a stall situation. I agree with eagl. Not sure what happened, if the pilot panicked, believed he had enough altitude to roll out, or what not... but I do not believe there was either engine trouble, nor a stall... :( Maybe he felt the onset of a stall and did his best to recover? NTSB says around 6 months to determine cause... so really anything until that time is just guessing..
RIP
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After reviewing the successful maneuver in previous air shows and the incident, it appears the pilot recognized an unacceptable situation and tried to escape. Looking at the incident video, it's notable that during the roll to inverted, the roll was somewhat sluggish and the nose vectored down vs the cleaner roll to inverted flight in the successful maneuver in the earlier airshow video. :salute