Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mano on June 27, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
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It has the gun of a Tiger II with a low profile and angled front armor. It will be really tough to kill from the front with a medium armor tank.
If this tank is on a hill or in a large clearing it will be tough to get to his flank or six.
I'm guessing between 75 and 100 perks when the ENY is 1.0.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/jagdpanzer/jagdpanther_3.jpg)
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25-50 perks, unless I miss my guess.
The Tiger II is only 100 perks, and it has an extra 100mm of armor at LOS thickness, it has a turret, and more ammunition, and more side and top armor.
The lack of a turret is a big hindrance, since its a lot easier to get shot in the side.
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Wonder what the commanders view will be like? :headscratch: Movable, limited movement, or stationary?
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This tank will easily be 50+ perks, given the gun which can kill any tank in game - and outstanding armor - without a turret? It only loses 25 perks or so.
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Wonder what the commanders view will be like? :headscratch: Movable, limited movement, or stationary?
i would imagine 360, but will the tank pivot if the engine is on?
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Wow I may start tankin now :aok
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I'm not a tanker and Waystin will attest to how much I hate tanks.
But, the evolution of our tank game is still fascinating.
Can this audience help me understand tactically how you will use these potent weapons differently than regular tanks with movable turrets? I've never been able to survive in a tank against other tanks unless I spend an hour creeping 100 yards, stopping every yard, and scanning everything on full zoom. Then I still get nailed by someone hiding just behind a berm 3k or so away.
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I'm not a tanker and Waystin will attest to how much I hate tanks.
But, the evolution of our tank game is still fascinating.
Can this audience help me understand tactically how you will use these potent weapons differently than regular tanks with movable turrets? I've never been able to survive in a tank against other tanks unless I spend an hour creeping 100 yards, stopping every yard, and scanning everything on full zoom. Then I still get nailed by someone hiding just behind a berm 3k or so away.
That is mainly due to the lack of more dynamic spawn points bustr, the hard-core tankers around here know the spots and where to look and shoot. If you spend a bit of time running around in jeep or a storch and find the right spots you might do better, conversely you can just copy the spots of successful tankers.
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I'm not a tanker and Waystin will attest to how much I hate tanks.
But, the evolution of our tank game is still fascinating.
Can this audience help me understand tactically how you will use these potent weapons differently than regular tanks with movable turrets? I've never been able to survive in a tank against other tanks unless I spend an hour creeping 100 yards, stopping every yard, and scanning everything on full zoom. Then I still get nailed by someone hiding just behind a berm 3k or so away.
we don't have to many buildings and bush's/hedge rows you can hide in, behind or shoot through. When i did play WOT i would place myself some where were i could ambush tanks rolling down narrow areas without exposing my side or rear. I wouldn't run to the front line of a fight and find a nice camping spot, enjoy yourself and wait to be bombed.
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Alot of players forget that it's important to rotate your tanks front armor to point at your enemy :old:
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Alot of players forget that it's important to rotate your tanks front armor to point at your enemy :old:
I bet the WOT lads who venture over here wont forget that.
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Cheaper than the regular tanks using the same weapon.
Jagdpanther, my tip would be on the 50, like 5 for the Jagdpanzer, and eny30 for the Hetzer.
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gonna be some serious spawn camping going on. should be easy cannon fodder for some of the tank killer birds. pivoting is going to be slow and ugly...
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I'd say the Jadgpanther sits around 30-50 perks with an eny 5. The Jadgpanzer round half of the Panther (I've already forgotten it's perk price) and eny same as Panther (5?). The Hetzer would be eny 30-ish.
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I'm not a tanker and Waystin will attest to how much I hate tanks.
But, the evolution of our tank game is still fascinating.
Can this audience help me understand tactically how you will use these potent weapons differently than regular tanks with movable turrets? I've never been able to survive in a tank against other tanks unless I spend an hour creeping 100 yards, stopping every yard, and scanning everything on full zoom. Then I still get nailed by someone hiding just behind a berm 3k or so away.
we should go tanking together, you just described a tank sortie for me.
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Alot of players forget that it's important to rotate your tanks front armor to point at your enemy :old:
Oh gawd yes they do.
Strangely it is also these folks who are the most vocal on 200 about how they hit so and so a dozen times and that so and so one shoted them :rolleyes:
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evolution of the tank game???? It's the same one we have had for 12 years. New toys same sand box....boring!
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evolution of the tank game???? It's the same one we have had for 12 years. New toys same sand box....boring!
and yet for some reason you are still around :).
as for the tank, it has frontal armor but from the front or rear, well, let's just say my il2 is gonna be happy :banana: :banana:.
semp
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I'm guessing between 75 and 100 perks when the ENY is 1.0.
I meant to say when the perk bonus or perk value was at 1.0
The Jagdpanther has a Tiger 2 gun. That is pretty deadly.
I would imagine it will be used for base defense and if there is an area without cover
You will see one up on the hill shooting at you from 3-4 thousand yards.
No one is going to kill it from long range, unless they have a Tiger 2. Low profile and angled armor makes it pretty tough.
:salute
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and yet for some reason you are still around :).
as for the tank, it has frontal armor but from the front or rear, well, let's just say my il2 is gonna be happy :banana: :banana:.
semp
Hell, could probably take em with the 39's with not too much trouble. :lol
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Anyone else love how pessimistic Butcher is? I wonder if he does that so he always gets better than he expected :neener:.
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Historically this non-turrreted heavy-armour tracked AFV format fell into either the assault gun or tank-hunter (panzerjaeger) category. Assault guns mounted large calibre howitzer type weapons for close range assault on heavily bunkered fixed defences, the ultimate type being the Sturmtiger which mounted a 12" rocket projector. Panzerjaeger mounted large high-velocity AT weapons and were used defensively as highly mobile and well protected anti-tank guns, the ultimate type being the Jagdtiger with the 128mm AT gun. Of course in practice there's considerable overlap, as a big HE shell is decently effective as an anti-tank weapon, and a big AT cannon can also fire a hefty HE shell. In general they're effective anywhere you have a good idea where the enemy is, or is going to be. In more fluid operations, you want a tank with a turret that can quickly engage targets in any direction.
How that plays out in game Ihave no idea, I never drive tanks...
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gonna be some serious spawn camping going on. should be easy cannon fodder for some of the tank killer birds. pivoting is going to be slow and ugly...
Good point; I didn't think of that first one - dead meat if spawn camped.
Additionally, I would think they will be easier to kill from the air, due to relatively thinner side armor, and lesser AA capability. (As we all know, in-game it is quite possible for a turreted tank to hit a plane which comes straight in at a low angle, which about half of them do). The new TDs will also not be able to shoot effectively on the move, or fight at close quarters. Since I get most of my kills using lower-velocity guns against targets shot at from the side, the lack of a turret will make such attacks much safer for me, even if their engine is on (in which case they won't hear me). Also, they won’t in general be able to fire when hull-down, and the gun depression may not allow them to go even partially hull-down, meaning that the entire vehicle will need to be exposed.
I’d say:
Jagdpanther: Perked as Panther (better gun, but everything else worse).
Jagdpanzer IV: As Panzer IVH (ditto).
Hetzer: As Panzer IVF (ditto).
MH
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Anyone else love how pessimistic Butcher is? I wonder if he does that so he always gets better than he expected :neener:.
You figured me out, by putting the bar so high I hope it is dropped enough I can afford to lose a few:)
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Anyone got a good source with the stats on this tank, particularly top speed and acceleration, angle of fire (up, down, L and R), and how fast it can turn at 0 speed with its tracks?
It's has an awesome gun, relatively small chasi/profile, but I don't think it was very fast and with such a big gun on a small chasi I'm assuming it had to have limited traverse. Upon that assumption, I think it'll be around the price of a tiger I or panther.
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Anyone got a good source with the stats on this tank, particularly top speed and acceleration, and angle of fire (up, down, L and R)?
Jagpanther has max gun traverse 11° to left and right each
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People make a lot of the engine being on or off. In actual use online you turn the engine on when you want to align with a target, and then turn it off. It's the same as a Tiger II in that regard. So for defense it should be the same as a Tiger II, easily out maneuvered and attacked with superior numbers, despite being slightly faster.
This tank is an ambush tank, and an assault tank. Because the tank has a limited traverse it is likely the perk cost will be slightly less than for the Tiger II. The questions I have concern reload times, and elevation of the main gun. The HE rounds are superior to the 75mm of the M4A3, obviously. However, if the reload time defeats the superior power of the gun, then its assault strength is bested by the M4A3-75 (which I have always said is the best artillery tank in AHII - and probably of WWII).
With all of the factors considered you might think (as some have already said) that this tank will be a hangar queen almost immediately, and that HTC is catering to the kiddies and WoT patrons. While I partially agree (the kiddie part at least) I don't agree about the hangar queen status.
Outside of these thoughts I will reserve judgment until the tank is actually in the game.
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With respect to the Jagdpanther, I got the following from one of my old “Bellona” pamphlets from the 1960s ("Published by Bellona Publications Limited, Hawthorn Hill, Bracknell, Berkshire, England. Copyright 1968"):
Gun traverse is 11 degrees to each side of center, depression is 8 degrees and elevation is 14 degrees.
The hull dimensions and armor are similar to the Panther. The top road speed is also similar to the Panther.
Ammo supply is 57-60 rounds of 88mm, so less than the Panther's 82 rounds of 75mm.
MH
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People make a lot of the engine being on or off. In actual use online you turn the engine on when you want to align with a target, and then turn it off. It's the same as a Tiger II in that regard. So for defense it should be the same as a Tiger II, easily out maneuvered and attacked with superior numbers, despite being slightly faster.
Actually, in most cases it is better practice to keep the engine on, so that when they get your range you can pull back behind the crest and reposition. This needs to be done within one of their firing cycles, so engine off would usually be a bad idea once in action. Engine off is good for ambush and/or listening for attackers, but once someone is shooting at you, best turn it on.
MH
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With respect to the Jagdpanther, I got the following from one of my old “Bellona” pamphlets from the 1970s:
Gun traverse is 11 degrees to each side of center, depression is 8 degrees and elevation is 14 degrees.
The hull dimensions and armor are similar to the Panther. The top road speed is also similar to the Panther.
Ammo supply is 60 rounds, so less than the Panther's 82 rounds.
MH
Interesting, so it's a panther with a bigger gun and faster rate of fire (and only 22 degrees to aim the gun with)....
Last question, what optics/sight was it standardly equiped with (same as used on the King Tiger)?
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Anyone else love how pessimistic Butcher is? I wonder if he does that so he always gets better than he expected :neener:.
That would be dilusion, not pessimism. :neener:
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Interesting, so it's a panther with a bigger gun and faster rate of fire (and only 22 degrees to aim the gun with)....
Last question, what optics/sight was it standardly equiped with (same as used on the King Tiger)?
In the absence of information on main gun rate of fire and optics, I would assume them to be similar to the Tiger II, since it's the same gun. Tiger II fires much slower than Panther.
MH
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None of the Jagdpanzers had think about going in to the fray alone. All it is going to take is a M18 or T34/76 to flank and it is game over for any of the three new "hunting tanks". If the tank destroyers turn to follow the flanker then their weak armor is rather exposed to the front.
I'm think this whole "tank destroyer" thing will awaken the Firefly a bit. After all it is a designated TD, it has the 2nd best AP ability in the game, turret traverse, and plenty of ammo. FWIW, I don't think the Hetzer or Jagdpanzer IV will have a perk price, they are actually limited compared to the Panzer Mk IV H with exception to the frontal armor. The only thing I'm not sure about on the Jadgpanzer IV is which main gun sight it used, I have two printed sources showing two different sights. If it has the same sight as the Panzer IV H then I'm guessing it will be higher on the ENY chart (meaing "less" capable).
Time will tell. Though, I don't look for any major shift in the ground game experience. The M18 brought in the last expansion of tactics thanks to its high speed and powerful main gun.
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Good point; I didn't think of that first one - dead meat if spawn camped.
Additionally, I would think they will be easier to kill from the air, due to relatively thinner side armor, and lesser AA capability. (As we all know, in-game it is quite possible for a turreted tank to hit a plane which comes straight in at a low angle, which about half of them do). The new TDs will also not be able to shoot effectively on the move, or fight at close quarters. Since I get most of my kills using lower-velocity guns against targets shot at from the side, the lack of a turret will make such attacks much safer for me, even if their engine is on (in which case they won't hear me). Also, they won’t in general be able to fire when hull-down, and the gun depression may not allow them to go even partially hull-down, meaning that the entire vehicle will need to be exposed.
I think you have some basic misconceptions about how these tanks will be used (unless the AH population is dumber than I think). Close-quarters combat will not be what these will want to do, and frankly you can't really force that sort of thing. They won't want to run n' gun. They won't be trying to go hull down.
I can almost guarantee that these things will be found underneath of trees more often than they'll be next to hills. Especially with the Hetzer, I'm going to be very leery of crossing in front of an undestroyed barn. You'll never know if there's one hiding in there, and you can only make an educated guess as to which direction his gun is facing.
Jagdpanther
Basically what we'll be seeing is something in between the play style for the Tiger I and Tiger II. Limited forays to the front of the line, but primarily long-ranged sniping from the rear; and this would not only be the prudent thing to do for your perks, but also for the effectiveness of the vehicle. A Jagdpanther that hangs back, and takes out 13 vehicles is more effective than the one that gets up close to kill a Tiger II, but then gets killed by an M18.
Jagdpanzer IV
About what you see from Panthers on the defensive right now. They'll up, scoot to a good spot well back of the line, and piss you off with their nice flat-shooting cannon.
Hetzer
Stealty Panzer IV.
I’d say:
Jagdpanther: Perked as Panther (better gun, but everything else worse).
Jagdpanzer IV: As Panzer IVH (ditto).
Hetzer: As Panzer IVF (ditto).
MH
Dude, even the M4(76) carries a perk price, and its all of 2mph faster than the Panzer IV H, has an inferior gun, arguably inferior optics, side and rear armor roughly on par, taller profile. Its only real advantages are the improved turret armor, the .50 cal, and the ROF of its gun. But still that was enough to earn it a perk price.
But you think a vehicle that does 29mph, has 139mm LOS thickness on the hull front, and carries an 88mm L/71 will be only 17 perks?
The Jagdpanzer IV you may perhaps be in the ballpark, MAYBE, but thats only because the Firefly is perked so low. I'd say ENY 10 at best, if not a 1-2 perk price.
Hetzer has 120mm at line of sight thickness on the front hull. Its going to be bouncier than anything this side of the Panther, just because its so heavily angled. Its also a bit smaller than an M3, and carries a good gun. Probably going to be where the Panzer IV H is.
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FWIW, I don't think the Hetzer or Jagdpanzer IV will have a perk price, they are actually limited compared to the Panzer Mk IV H with exception to the frontal armor.
I think the main real life advantages of the Hetzer in particular do not come that much into play in AH. The small hull was easily concealable, here in AH there is not really such a thing, especially as our terrain has less features and it's not as easy to "blend in". It has only 20mm of side and ~10mm of top armor, so about anything flanking a Hetzer will have a field day, and the Hetzer will be extremely vulnerable to airplanes.
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I think you have some basic misconceptions about how these tanks will be used (unless the AH population is dumber than I think). Close-quarters combat will not be what these will want to do, and frankly you can't really force that sort of thing. They won't want to run n' gun. They won't be trying to go hull down.
I can almost guarantee that these things will be found underneath of trees more often than they'll be next to hills. Especially with the Hetzer, I'm going to be very leery of crossing in front of an undestroyed barn. You'll never know if there's one hiding in there, and you can only make an educated guess as to which direction his gun is facing.
<snip>
Basically what we'll be seeing is something in between the play style for the Tiger I and Tiger II. Limited forays to the front of the line, but primarily long-ranged sniping from the rear; and this would not only be the prudent thing to do for your perks, but also for the effectiveness of the vehicle. A Jagdpanther that hangs back, and takes out 13 vehicles is more effective than the one that gets up close to kill a Tiger II, but then gets killed by an M18.
<snip>
About what you see from Panthers on the defensive right now. They'll up, scoot to a good spot well back of the line, and piss you off with their nice flat-shooting cannon.
<snip>
Dude, even the M4(76) carries a perk price, and its all of 2mph faster than the Panzer IV H, has an inferior gun, arguably inferior optics, side and rear armor roughly on par, taller profile. Its only real advantages are the improved turret armor, the .50 cal, and the ROF of its gun. But still that was enough to earn it a perk price.
But you think a vehicle that does 29mph, has 139mm LOS thickness on the hull front, and carries an 88mm L/71 will be only 17 perks?
The Jagdpanzer IV you may perhaps be in the ballpark, MAYBE, but thats only because the Firefly is perked so low. I'd say ENY 10 at best, if not a 1-2 perk price.
Hetzer has 120mm at line of sight thickness on the front hull. Its going to be bouncier than anything this side of the Panther, just because its so heavily angled. Its also a bit smaller than an M3, and carries a good gun. Probably going to be where the Panzer IV H is.
Tank Ace, I have every respect for your opinions in general, but have you played the GV game recently? I’m not saying the AH population is “dumb” (they’re not), but it’s just a game, and many GV players just want action. Furthermore, I think these TDs will need to be used in most normal environments (or what’s the point of HTC spending the resources on them), and will therefore need to be perked (or not) appropriately to their many disadvantages.
Note that close-quarter combat is forced on you when the opposition advances. A turret-less TD will have great difficulty in dealing with this. Once the enemy gets close and starts to move around the flanks, it either has to rotate to face or retreat. When retreating the gun of course faces in the wrong direction and the side/rear armor is typically not any better than an equivalent tank. The stronger front armor of course is not too useful in this situation.
Furthermore, hiding “underneath of trees” is a very bad tactic to use against opposing GVs (only good against AC or GVs on high mountains). Given the shape of AH trees, your TC is up in the foliage blinded, while most of your vehicle is visible below the foliage. Easy kill.
As far as passing near terrain features such as barns, a turreted tank will be at least as dangerous as a turret-less TD. The typical attack where one moves up to the barn, and then moves to one side or the other at the last minute will be more difficult to counter by the TD. Plus if the TD misses the first shot, he is screwed, whereas the attacking tank will be tracking with the turret.
With respect to the possible perk cost of the Jagdpanther, per my previous post, it appears to have similar armor to the Panther. You are (over) quoting the mantlet thickness, which is only a small proportion of the frontal area. The upper hull plate is 80mm at 35 degrees from the horizontal, like the Panther, and the lower hull plate is thinner but more sloped, assuming my Bellona pamphlet is correct. Yes it has Panther speed and a bigger gun, but everything else, as I mentioned previously, is against it. All that other stuff, tactically, is significant, as you should know if you still play.
MH
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None of the Jagdpanzers had think about going in to the fray alone. All it is going to take is a M18 or T34/76 to flank and it is game over for any of the three new "hunting tanks". If the tank destroyers turn to follow the flanker then their weak armor is rather exposed to the front.
I'm think this whole "tank destroyer" thing will awaken the Firefly a bit. After all it is a designated TD, it has the 2nd best AP ability in the game, turret traverse, and plenty of ammo. FWIW, I don't think the Hetzer or Jagdpanzer IV will have a perk price, they are actually limited compared to the Panzer Mk IV H with exception to the frontal armor. The only thing I'm not sure about on the Jadgpanzer IV is which main gun sight it used, I have two printed sources showing two different sights. If it has the same sight as the Panzer IV H then I'm guessing it will be higher on the ENY chart (meaing "less" capable).
Time will tell. Though, I don't look for any major shift in the ground game experience. The M18 brought in the last expansion of tactics thanks to its high speed and powerful main gun.
I just bought a book from Amazon called "Panzer Gunner”, which may interest you. It is written by a Canadian who as a teenager was dragged over to Germany just before the war by his naïve parents, and was drafted into the Panzer arm. Much of his service was in the Jadgpanzer IV, and the book appears to contain a lot of low level detail on gunnery. Haven't read it yet, but skimming through the JagdpanzerIV section mentions the gunners telescopic sight as being "SfLZF".
MH
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I think the main real life advantages of the Hetzer in particular do not come that much into play in AH. The small hull was easily concealable, here in AH there is not really such a thing, especially as our terrain has less features and it's not as easy to "blend in". It has only 20mm of side and ~10mm of top armor, so about anything flanking a Hetzer will have a field day, and the Hetzer will be extremely vulnerable to airplanes.
Even a .50 can penetrate 10mm of armor. That's one thing that does not appear to be modeled is how a .50 round can defeat a tank by knocking out its gun, which even in the 85mm gun package could be penetrated by a .50 round. Hard to hit by an aircraft, but never the less possible.
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I just bought a book from Amazon called "Panzer Gunner”, which may interest you. It is written by a Canadian who as a teenager was dragged over to Germany just before the war by his naïve parents, and was drafted into the Panzer arm. Much of his service was in the Jadgpanzer IV L/70, and the book appears to contain a lot of low level detail on gunnery. Haven't read it yet, but skimming through the JagdpanzerIV section mentions the gunners telescopic sight as being "SfLZF".
MH
Ah nice. If that is the case then the Jagdpanzer IV/70 will have a straight 5X with an °8 degree field of view. That will be interesting, it will have just over half of the field of view compared to the Panther and only °10 to left and right to traverse the gun. Also, keep in mind the Panzer IV did not have the ability to pivot in place. The Jagdpanzer IV will have to move "forward" with one track or the other in order to turn the gun further than °10. It is a sitting suck if it out there alone and the enemy is numerous and fast moving. Its only hope is to maximize its optics (5X) and killing power and get the horde before it is able to get "around the gun".
Jadgpanzer IV/70-
Main Gun: 75mm Stu.K.42 L/70
Gunsight: Sfl.ZF 1a / Rblf 36
Magnification: 5x magnification / 8° Field of View
Traverse: 20° (Manual)
Elevation: +15° / -5°
Main Gun Ammo: 55
Also, just for comparisons sake:
Hetzer-
Main Gun: 75mm PaK 39 L/48
Gunsight: Sfl.ZF 1a / Rblf 36
Magnification: 5x magnification / 8° Field of View
Traverse: 5° Left & 11° Right (Hand)
Elevation: +12° / -6°
Main Gun Ammo: 41
Jagdpanther-
Main Gun: 88mm Kw.K.43 L / 71
Gunsight: WZF 1/4
Magnification: 10x magnification / 7° Field of View [yes, you read correct, a 10x]
Traverse: 26° (Manual)
Elevation: +14° / -8°
Main Gun Ammo: 57
Of the three, only the Jagdpanther has the ability to pivot in place. The Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV/70 will have to creep forward/backwards while turning.
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I'm not a tanker...I've never been able to survive in a tank against other tanks unless I spend an hour creeping 100 yards, stopping every yard, and scanning everything on full zoom. Then I still get nailed by someone hiding just behind a berm 3k or so away.
Oh, good. I thought I was the only one.
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Tank Ace, I have every respect for your opinions in general, but have you played the GV game recently?
I think we killed each other a few times yesterday, actually.
I’m not saying the AH population is “dumb” (they’re not), but it’s just a game, and many GV players just want action. Furthermore, I think these TDs will need to be used in most normal environments (or what’s the point of HTC spending the resources on them), and will therefore need to be perked (or not) appropriately to their many disadvantages.
I personally could use them even in a spawn battle, just because I know how to use them effectively. It's not so much different fights, but different tactics. Luckily, my personal defensive tactics closely resembles those for TDs.
Note that close-quarter combat is forced on you when the opposition advances. A turret-less TD will have great difficulty in dealing with this. Once the enemy gets close and starts to move around the flanks, it either has to rotate to face or retreat. When retreating the gun of course faces in the wrong direction and the side/rear armor is typically not any better than an equivalent tank. The stronger front armor of course is not too useful in this situation.
Well, it is if you develop tunnel vision. I've been able to keep the fight long ranged in a Tiger, because I held a spot until I couldn't, then withdrew, but left myself enough time to make it to the next burn: I always have at least a tertiary firing position picked out.
Furthermore, hiding “underneath of trees” is a very bad tactic to use against opposing GVs (only good against AC or GVs on high mountains). Given the shape of AH trees, your TC is up in the foliage blinded, while most of your vehicle is visible below the foliage. Easy kill.
Let me rephrase; way back under the trees, at least in the maps where there are dense thickets. And in a TD, your commander will be at about gun level on a tank, if not even lower. In other words, below the branches.
As far as passing near terrain features such as barns, a turreted tank will be at least as dangerous as a turret-less TD. The typical attack where one moves up to the barn, and then moves to one side or the other at the last minute will be more difficult to counter by the TD. Plus if the TD misses the first shot, he is screwed, whereas the attacking tank will be tracking with the turret.
You misunderstand me. I'm talking about hiding I inside of the undestroyed barns. Only 5 vehicles can do this at present, IIRC. In this position, you are only able to be shot through the doors, and now where else.
With respect to the possible perk cost of the Jagdpanther, per my previous post, it appears to have similar armor to the Panther. You are (over) quoting the mantlet thickness, which is only a small proportion of the frontal area. The upper hull plate is 80mm at 35 degrees from the horizontal, like the Panther, and the lower hull plate is thinner but more sloped, assuming my Bellona pamphlet is correct. Yes it has Panther speed and a bigger gun, but everything else, as I mentioned previously, is against it. All that other stuff, tactically, is significant, as you should know if you still play.
MH
Nominal thickness of 80mm, line of sight thickness of 139mm. Bear in mind that at 30° slope from horizontal, the LOS thickness is double the nominal thickness, and the Panther is at 35°.
The top issues afflicting the Jagdpanther will be field of view, ROF, and limited traverse, in descending importance.
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I think we killed each other a few times yesterday, actually.
Just out of curiosity, what is your in-game handle, such that one could find it in the stats page?
I personally could use them even in a spawn battle, just because I know how to use them effectively. It's not so much different fights, but different tactics. Luckily, my personal defensive tactics closely resembles those for TDs.
It depends on the intensity of the spawn camp, of course. However, I was referring to the intense/bad kind, where you can’t just drive away. In such a spawn camp, you expect to die, but want to get one of them first, thus reducing their numbers for the next spawn. Eventually you hope to have them thinned out enough so you can drive away from the spawn and engage from a position of equality. So in this case, with a turret, you can rotate both the hull and the turret to get off the shot quicker. In contrast, a TD will only be able to rotate the hull, leading to slower on-target time, which is a big disadvantage. My argument is that this difference is one of many factors which should reduce the TD in-game cost relative to an equivalent tank with the same chassis.
Well, it is if you develop tunnel vision. I've been able to keep the fight long ranged in a Tiger, because I held a spot until I couldn't, then withdrew, but left myself enough time to make it to the next burn: I always have at least a tertiary firing position picked out.
You don’t always have the option to stay 2-3k in the rear, as in many terrains you can’t see anything back there. So, unless you are on a flat plain or a mountain, and sometimes even then, there will usually be covered avenues of approach which they can use to get on your flanks. Once they do this, the TD disadvantages I mentioned will apply. Again, my argument is that this lesser situational capability should lead to lesser in-game cost for the turret-less TDs. I am not saying that the new TDs will always be completely useless, but that they will be inherently disadvantaged except for larger guns, and the cost should reflect this (hammering away at this point as you see). Thus, Jagdpanther should perhaps cost the same as Panther, JPzr IV no more than Panzer IVH, and Hetzer no more than Panzer IVF.
Let me rephrase; way back under the trees, at least in the maps where there are dense thickets. And in a TD, your commander will be at about gun level on a tank, if not even lower. In other words, below the branches.
I doubt the new TDs will be any lower than our current M3 TD (75 mm), and the M3 commander’s head is still in the branches. In particular, a Jagdpanther is much higher than the M3. Thus this shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
You misunderstand me. I'm talking about hiding I inside of the undestroyed barns. Only 5 vehicles can do this at present, IIRC. In this position, you are only able to be shot through the doors, and now where else.
I suppose the Hetzer may fit through the barn door (probably not though), but the Jagdpanther and Jagdpanzer IV won’t as both are the same width as the corresponding tanks, which are much too wide.
Nominal thickness of 80mm, line of sight thickness of 139mm. Bear in mind that at 30° slope from horizontal, the LOS thickness is double the nominal thickness, and the Panther is at 35°.
It’s 35 degrees, not 30 degrees. Again, the Jagdpanther’s armor is essentially the same as the Panther’s, and thus shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
The top issues afflicting the Jagdpanther will be field of view, ROF, and limited traverse, in descending importance.
Plus lack of a turret, lack of AA capability, and all the tactical limitations which result from these, as I mentioned in my previous posts.
MH
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I think we killed each other a few times yesterday, actually.
Just out of curiosity, what is your in-game handle, such that one could find it in the stats page?
I personally could use them even in a spawn battle, just because I know how to use them effectively. It's not so much different fights, but different tactics. Luckily, my personal defensive tactics closely resembles those for TDs.
It depends on the intensity of the spawn camp, of course. However, I was referring to the intense/bad kind, where you can’t just drive away. In such a spawn camp, you expect to die, but want to get one of them first, thus reducing their numbers for the next spawn. Eventually you hope to have them thinned out enough so you can drive away from the spawn and engage from a position of equality. So in this case, with a turret, you can rotate both the hull and the turret to get off the shot quicker. In contrast, a TD will only be able to rotate the hull, leading to slower on-target time, which is a big disadvantage. My argument is that this difference is one of many factors which should reduce the TD in-game cost relative to an equivalent tank with the same chassis.
Well, it is if you develop tunnel vision. I've been able to keep the fight long ranged in a Tiger, because I held a spot until I couldn't, then withdrew, but left myself enough time to make it to the next burn: I always have at least a tertiary firing position picked out.
You don’t always have the option to stay 2-3k in the rear, as in many terrains you can’t see anything back there. So, unless you are on a flat plain or a mountain, and sometimes even then, there will usually be covered avenues of approach which they can use to get on your flanks. Once they do this, the TD disadvantages I mentioned will apply. Again, my argument is that this lesser situational capability should lead to lesser in-game cost for the turret-less TDs. I am not saying that the new TDs will always be completely useless, but that they will be inherently disadvantaged except for larger guns, and the cost should reflect this (hammering away at this point as you see).
Let me rephrase; way back under the trees, at least in the maps where there are dense thickets. And in a TD, your commander will be at about gun level on a tank, if not even lower. In other words, below the branches.
I doubt the new TDs will be any lower than our current M3 TD (75 mm), and the M3 commander’s head is still in the branches. In particular, a Jagdpanther is much higher than the M3. Thus this shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
You misunderstand me. I'm talking about hiding I inside of the undestroyed barns. Only 5 vehicles can do this at present, IIRC. In this position, you are only able to be shot through the doors, and now where else.
Since the Panzer can squeeze throught the barn door (I just tried it offline), I assume that the Hetzer and the JPzr IV will also. However, the Panther hull is much wider, and I doubt that Jagdpanther will fit. IMHO, hiding in barns is a mixed blessing, as you can't see them, but you yourself may have been seen and reported (usually by aircraft). Thus, I don't think this is much of an argument for increased in-game cost.
Nominal thickness of 80mm, line of sight thickness of 139mm. Bear in mind that at 30° slope from horizontal, the LOS thickness is double the nominal thickness, and the Panther is at 35°.
It’s 35 degrees, not 30 degrees. Again, the Jagdpanther’s armor is essentially the same as the Panther’s, and thus shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
The top issues afflicting the Jagdpanther will be field of view, ROF, and limited traverse, in descending importance.
Plus lack of a turret, lack of AA capability, smaller ammunition load, and all the tactical limitations which result from these, as I mentioned in my previous posts.
MH
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Double post double fun :banana:
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Just out of curiosity, what is your in-game handle, such that one could find it in the stats page?
Jager
It depends on the intensity of the spawn camp, of course. However, I was referring to the intense/bad kind, where you can’t just drive away. In such a spawn camp, you expect to die, but want to get one of them first, thus reducing their numbers for the next spawn. Eventually you hope to have them thinned out enough so you can drive away from the spawn and engage from a position of equality. So in this case, with a turret, you can rotate both the hull and the turret to get off the shot quicker. In contrast, a TD will only be able to rotate the hull, leading to slower on-target time, which is a big disadvantage. My argument is that this difference is one of many factors which should reduce the TD in-game cost relative to an equivalent tank with the same chassis.
So because it can't survive a camp as effectively, it should be considered inferior it combat?
A Tiger II has about the same odds of survival as a Panzer IV under those circumstances, and possibly a lesser chance at killing something due to the traverse rate. Your point is rather irrelevant, I'm afraid.
You don’t always have the option to stay 2-3k in the rear, as in many terrains you can’t see anything back there. So, unless you are on a flat plain or a mountain, and sometimes even then, there will usually be covered avenues of approach which they can use to get on your flanks. Once they do this, the TD disadvantages I mentioned will apply. Again, my argument is that this lesser situational capability should lead to lesser in-game cost for the turret-less TDs. I am not saying that the new TDs will always be completely useless, but that they will be inherently disadvantaged except for larger guns, and the cost should reflect this (hammering away at this point as you see).
Disadvantaged in some areas, advantaged in others. But to think that any reduction in cost will be to the point where we have cheap '88mm L/71 is delusional.
I doubt the new TDs will be any lower than our current M3 TD (75 mm), and the M3 commander’s head is still in the branches. In particular, a Jagdpanther is much higher than the M3. Thus this shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
The Hetzer is lower than the M3, but slightly wider (like 3 inches, IIRC), and about the same length. Jagdpanzer IV slightly larger, and the Jagdpanther a bit larger than that.
But the size advantage is mostly to the Hetzer.
Since the Panzer can squeeze throught the barn door (I just tried it offline), I assume that the Hetzer and the JPzr IV will also. However, the Panther hull is much wider, and I doubt that Jagdpanther will fit. IMHO, hiding in barns is a mixed blessing, as you can't see them, but you yourself may have been seen and reported (usually by aircraft). Thus, I don't think this is much of an argument for increased in-game cost.
Alone it's not, at least under the context of conventional use.
It’s 35 degrees, not 30 degrees. Again, the Jagdpanther’s armor is essentially the same as the Panther’s, and thus shouldn’t be an excuse to increase the cost.
Plus lack of a turret, lack of AA capability, smaller ammunition load, and all the tactical limitations which result from these, as I mentioned in my previous posts.
MH
I don't think the turret will be a huge issue, used properly. And anything less than a .50, and you might as well just flip the enemy off. It typically does the same amount of good.
The ammunition load is a valid concern.
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The day this patch is released, I hope Hitech makes Craterma the map so you guys can go to TT and whizz yourselves into a tizzy while all tuned to ch200 to whine at each other. At least you will get to bash each other around the virtual noggins.
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TT in Crater will be ideal to test out the new rides. The ridge from all three countries will be lined with Jagdpanthers if the perk cost is around 50 perks. The low profiles peaking over the ridge will be hard to hit for medium armor tanks. It will definitely change the way the GV battle is played.
:salute
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Imagine 135 :O
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Bring on teh Jagdtiger, 12.8 cm (5 in!) of AT lovin'!
That said, the dang bushes going to be an issue...
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The day this patch is released, I hope Hitech makes Craterma the map so you guys can go to TT and whizz yourselves into a tizzy while all tuned to ch200 to whine at each other. At least you will get to bash each other around the virtual noggins.
Since when is rational discussion whining? If you aren't interested, don't read the thread.
MH
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TT in Crater will be ideal to test out the new rides. The ridge from all three countries will be lined with Jagdpanthers if the perk cost is around 50 perks. The low profiles peaking over the ridge will be hard to hit for medium armor tanks. It will definitely change the way the GV battle is played.
:salute
Actually, TT in CraterMA is not all that typical, as it involves 2 distant ridges, with long range vehicles perched on them shooting back and forth. Getting to one of those ridges without being shot is challenging. In such a case, the turret-less TDs being discussed would not suffer as much from the lack of a turret. Thus this is one of the more favorable situations for them, I would say.
MH
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Actually, TT in CraterMA is not all that typical, as it involves 2 distant ridges, with long range vehicles perched on them shooting back and forth.
Indeed.
And if the Jagpanther will not only carry the 88/L71 gun, but also feature a 10x optical sight, it might very well be a 'game changer' for that particular combat, being truly able to "reach out and touch" all across the valley (something I did with the Firefly, which has so far the largest magnification in game at 5x, if I recall correctly)
And, of course, be the prime target for M-18 dashes as well as scores of angry Jabo pilots. ;)
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Indeed.
And if the Jagpanther will not only carry the 88/L71 gun, but also feature a 10x optical sight, it might very well be a 'game changer' for that particular combat, being truly able to "reach out and touch" all across the valley (something I did with the Firefly, which has so far the largest magnification in game at 5x, if I recall correctly)
And, of course, be the prime target for M-18 dashes as well as scores of angry Jabo pilots. ;)
and if players are smart they will ALWAYS take a few HE shells to deal with the M18's and other light skinned gv's. If there is an M18 racing to my flank while I'm in a Jagd I wont be firing AP at it, I'll be firing HE. All it takes is a near miss and the M18 is dead in it's tracks by virtue of a damaged engine, damaged track, or damage turret. Matter of fact, I dont use AP vs an M18 (or M8, M3, etc) regardless if it is moving or not. HE does the trick every time. But alas, the knuckle-draggers will continue to crawl up to the skirmish line with %100 AP.
The 10X magnification is going to be interesting. I don't look for the Jagdpanther to be a game changer though, if it can't fire any faster than 6 times a minute AND begin to engage targets at 2000+ yards out, it really offers no more advantage than that of a Tiger, Panther, or Firefly (assuming the perk cost will be LESS than a King Tiger). A couple of M18's or T34/76's running to the flanks while the MBT's engage from the front and that is all she wrote for the Jagdpanther. A lot of ground can be covered in 10 seconds by an M18 and T34/76.
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Indeed.
And if the Jagpanther will not only carry the 88/L71 gun, but also feature a 10x optical sight, it might very well be a 'game changer' for that particular combat, being truly able to "reach out and touch" all across the valley (something I did with the Firefly, which has so far the largest magnification in game at 5x, if I recall correctly)
And, of course, be the prime target for M-18 dashes as well as scores of angry Jabo pilots. ;)
I don't think the 10x magnification matters much, as I can already hit stationary targets consistently at 4K even with a Panzer (usually from a hill at the longer ranges). In fact, if I am on a suitable hill, and the target has a suitable visual background, I can hit from beyond 4K, which is beyond the calibration on the Panzer's sight reticle. If the target is moving or moving evasively, then the 10x matters even less, as hitting will be a matter of luck.
MH
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Tank-Ace,
Although one wouldn't know it from your last iteration of our back-and-forth (where your comments have mostly diverged from the orignally points of discussion), I think I have made my point that the TDs aren't the game changers you originally feared. I grant you that they will be useful in certain circumstances, and am thrilled that HTC will be including them. However, I think that examining the entire spectrum of use in a typical GV outing, they will have disadvantages which compensate for the gun, and that therefore a game-cost similar to the equivalent tank will be warranted. If actual usage shows these initial game-costs to be out of line in either direction, I assume HTC will adjust as usual.
I'm glad to see you're back in the game as Jager, and we will see how this TD thing turns out. I am hoping for an SU-100 next. :-)
MH
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if it can't fire any faster than 6 times a minute
Couldn't the roomier casemate of the Jagdpanther mean that the loading may be faster compared to the King Tiger and its less roomy turret? Not that I've ever clocked the loading time of the King Tiger in AH.
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It would be interesting to see how the gunsight view is modeled. because as you can see the gunsight is not next to the gun its ontop of the superstructure to the left. but all in all i think they will be more then welcome to the game and see more regular use then the kingtiger.
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Couldn't the roomier casemate of the Jagdpanther mean that the loading may be faster compared to the King Tiger and its less roomy turret? Not that I've ever clocked the loading time of the King Tiger in AH.
So far it appears that HTC has taken the better of the printed reload times for most of the tanks. The Panther is noted for being able to fire 6-10 times a minute and in AH it reloads every 6 seconds (10 shots a min). The Panzer IV and Tiger both are noted as having the same "6-10 shots per minute" reload times (Pzr IV = 6 sec and Tiger 7 sec reloads times in AH). The King Tiger reloads in 10 seconds in AH. Multiple printed sources show the King Tiger to have a "4-6" shots per minute", and HTC has given it the 10 second reload time (6 shots a minute). I've not ever been able to see the inner workings of a King Tiger or Jagdpanther so I can't comment on ease of reload. I would like to think that the designers had ease of use in mind when they designed it, but who knows.
This is one of those areas in AH that are ultimately arbitrary. HTC has to take in to consideration the experience of the crew, the training of the crew, the breech mechanism of the cannon, the length and weight of the ammo, and the location of the ready rounds. There really is no set reload rate for a tank, it is ultimately based on how fast the loader can grab a new round from the magazine, shove it in to the breech, lock the breech, then yell his "ready" command. There is video on You Tube showing a Sherman M1A1 firing at a rate of 1 rounds every 3 seconds (on average), yet in AH the M4A3 Sherman reloads at 4 seconds (and no the video was not sped up).
I wish HTC would not be so set in their ways and once in awhile mix things up. Why not allow the Panzer IV F to fire at 4 seconds? Panzer IV H at 5 seconds? T34/85 at 5.5 seconds? I understand it would change the ENY and perk costs when doing so but it don't see a major shift in the Force. Not every tank crew is going to fire at the same rate. If the game swings to far in some direction to the point that HTC cant sleep at night then change it back.
Here are the current reload times for the major tanks (longest to shortest):
King Tiger = 10 sec
T34/76 = 9 sec
Firefly = 8 sec
T34/85 = 7.5 sec
Tiger = 7 sec
Panther = 6 sec
Panzer IV F2/H = 6
M18 = 5.4 sec
M4A3/76 = 5.4 sec
Panzer IV F1 = 5
M4A3/75 = 4 sec
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moin
About the Perkprices,
i think the Jangdpanther shoundn t be much more expensive as an regular panter, sure it has a biger gun and beter front armor but in standart Aces High use he will be always stand behind a normal Panther Because the only think what mades this weapon awesome is its kind of taktikal use, if you don t use taktiks of an Hunting Tank you shoul better use a normal tank.
Some guys saying that these tanks are good for spawncaming, but this only at a well placed far away spot. At a nearby spot a hunting tank will be killed much faster as an normal tank.
Best Taktikal situataion for the Jagtpanther in AH would be in attacking a V-field in a wiede open place flanked right and left by panthers. The panthers saving the bellybutton of the Jagdpanther on the way to the field. After geting in Range the Jagdpanther can firer on the spawn hanger and kill king tigers wile the panthers get a foot on the field.
In defence it will be hard, all Kingtiger drivers knew the situations wenn a milion m-18 are huntion your tank, now imagine how this feel if you turret it not moveable?! and your armor is weaker. So the perkprice should be way less of a king tiger and maybe, maybe a pit mor as that from a panther.
i woul prefer the same.
cu christian
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The day this patch is released, I hope Hitech makes Craterma the map so you guys can go to TT and whizz yourselves into a tizzy while all tuned to ch200 to whine at each other. At least you will get to bash each other around the virtual noggins.
I have heard that Trinity is making a return soon...would be fun there as well. :aok
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I have heard that Trinity is making a return soon...would be fun there as well. :aok
If and when they bring back Trinity lets hope they've fixed that travesty of a spawn point near 135, and improved the spawn points at TT. Seriously though, the tank town that Trinity offers is the best of any map in the game. If HTC were to move in the spawn points 500-1000 yards it would allow for a "close enough yet far away enough" setting for the almost insta-action so many crave in gv's.
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If and when they bring back Trinity lets hope they've fixed that travesty of a spawn point near 135, and improved the spawn points at TT. Seriously though, the tank town that Trinity offers is the best of any map in the game. If HTC were to move in the spawn points 500-1000 yards it would allow for a "close enough yet far away enough" setting for the almost insta-action so many crave in gv's.
The Trinity TT was good, but the problem with it was that in its initialized form (no bases yet changed hands), there was no easy way to announce that "I am here" by moving close enought to a VBase to get it to blink. In turn, a blinking VBase is needed to attract other players. Otherwise, I go in, listen, hear nothing and leave. You go in and ditto. The best way to obtain the quick "blinking base" condition is to replace the center group of buildings with a VBase. Alternatively, add spawn points connecting the "inner" 3 VBases to each other, again, to allow a quick "blinking VBase" condition to occur.
MH
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Does it matter what the perk cost is? When you know where tanks spawn your dead. One simple change is to just not show where enemy spawns are on the map. Might mix it up a little. Again if the spawn gets surrounded then maybe it bounces rearward 1 k. Maybe move the spawns around or farther apart? :bolt:
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Instead of the WWI arena HTC may have been better served with a Tank arena like World of Tanks only good. Tweaking spawns on existing maps would still be welcome but is not the ends all. Looking forward to the new Assault vehicles.
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moin
NOOO,
i love tanking but i also love bombing stuff, so more gvs so more Targets to bomb and greater fights.
but the spawnponts lokation should be reworked on a lot of bases spawnpoints direct infront of spawnpoints makes no much sense because no realfight starts only camping. i think spanpoints should be always placed like that : Spawnpoint, Field, Spawnpoint.
cu christian