Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on July 11, 2013, 12:17:08 PM
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:airplane: I am sure everyone who is interested in aviation and aircraft have questions in their mind about what happened to the 777 at SFO! The only question I have is just this: With the "Bug" speed set at 137 knots for final landing config and 15 seconds later it was down to 105 knots, where was the instructor and why did he or someone did not notice that they had decreased in airspeed below the target speed, which should have been at 137 knots all the way to the inner marker?
This accident reminds me of an Eastern Airlines Lockheed L1011 accident which occurred in 1972.Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 was a Lockheed L-1011-1 Tristar jet that crashed into the Florida Everglades at 11:42pm December 29, 1972, causing 101 fatalities (99 initial crash fatalities, two died shortly afterward). There were 75 survivors. The crash occurred as a result of the entire flight crew becoming preoccupied with a burnt-out landing gear indicator light and failing to notice the autopilot had inadvertently been disconnected. As a result, the flight gradually lost altitude and eventually crashed while the flight crew was distracted with the indicator problem. It was the first crash of a wide-body aircraft and at the time, the second deadliest single-aircraft disaster in the United States.
One of the reasons this has always stuck in my mind were the "ghost" stories surrounding this model aircraft.Over the following months and years, employees of Eastern Air Lines began reporting sightings of the dead crew members, captain Robert Loft and second officer (flight engineer) Donald Repo, sitting on board other L-1011 (N318EA) flights.
Parts of Flight 401 were salvaged after the crash investigation and refitted into other L-1011s.The reported hauntings were only seen on the planes that used the spare parts. Sightings of the spirits of Don Repo and Bob Loft spread throughout Eastern Air Lines to the point where Eastern's management warned employees that they could face dismissal if caught spreading ghost stories.
While Eastern Airlines publicly denied some of their planes were haunted, they reportedly removed all the salvaged parts from their L-1011 fleet. Over time, the reporting of ghost sightings stopped. An original floor board from Flight 401 remains in the archives at History Miami in South Florida.
Eastern Air Lines CEO (and former Apollo astronaut) Frank Borman called the ghost stories surrounding the crash "garbage".
There was a Hollywood movie made about this crash, with Earnest Borgine starring as the "ghost".
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From what I've read, it seems like pilot error, with a pilot inexperienced with the plane and the airport, and a cockpit full of other pilots junior in rank who didn't speak up as he got it too low and slow.
I'm surprised at how well the airplane stayed together. I'm impressed by its structural strength.
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From what I've read, it seems like pilot error, with a pilot inexperienced with the plane and the airport, and a cockpit full of other pilots junior in rank who didn't speak up as he got it too low and slow.
I'm surprised at how well the airplane stayed together. I'm impressed by its structural strength.
:airplane: If I am not mistaken, the 777 is and was the first "composite material" build airliner. I think I remember them "ballywhoing" that when it first was intertroduced 4 years ago.
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:airplane: If I am not mistaken, the 777 is and was the first "composite material" build airliner. I think I remember them "ballywhoing" that when it first was intertroduced 4 years ago.
I know that some of it is composite, but I'm not sure which parts (wings and not fuselage, for example? -- I'm not sure). Two things impressed me -- that it stayed together so well and that whatever parts were composite didn't seem very flammable.
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with a pilot inexperienced with the plane and the airport,
This really has nothing to do with the crash. The failure was in a very basic piloting skill...landing the airplane from a visual approach. The gross landing skills apply regardless if it's a Cub going onto a 200' gravel bar or the Space Shuttle on a 15000' runway.
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I believe the pilots thought they had auto throttles engaged but didn't. Either the pilot forgot to engage it, it was disengaged sometime during the approach or it just didn't work. What really amazes me is that ANY pilot wouldn't have his approach speed in his scan. Even if there was a mechanical/electrical failure with the auto throttles letting your airplane fly you into the ground is inexcusable.
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As always - don't rely on or fully trust a computer to do your work, always keep an eye on it to monitor it's actions. That's what the pilots obviously forgot.
Even if there was some kind of mechanical/electrical or software failure, it does not excuse the failure to monitor alt and speed.
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The pilot was not inexperienced with SFO. He had previously landed 747s there.
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When you fly an approach in autoland, the throttles make adjustments just like a real pilot.
If you happen to disengage it to go hands on just after autoland has decided it needed to pull power to maintain glideslope, you will be handed an airplane in which you must add power right away to maintain that glideslope.
If you aren't on the ball, you will get behind.
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When you fly an approach in autoland, the throttles make adjustments just like a real pilot.
If you happen to disengage it to go hands on just after autoland has decided it needed to pull power to maintain glideslope, you will be handed an airplane in which you must add power right away to maintain that glideslope.
If you aren't on the ball, you will get behind.
:airplane: I am told by friends of mine who fly for 2 different airlines, one of the problems with all the "glass" cockpits and all the electronic aids you have in flying, to many people are getting dependant on electronic aids to assist them. I think one of the problems of this ill fated flight, was the fact that the glide slope feature of the ILS was not working at that time and there fore, the pilot had to revert back to basic flying skills. I personally would like to see the FAA require that when it is VFR, no matter where you are flying, you should be required to shut down the ILS, just in the interest of maintaining basic flying skills. Of course that will never happen because to many people are going to insist on using every available electronic aid to make the flight safer! Now, when the PIC gets backed into a situation where he does not have that electronic aid to assist him, is his or her basic flying skills up to snuff, or you, as a passenger, going to have to go through "on the job" training? I guess in this accident, the instructor on board and who was supposed to be training the Captain, his flying skills, which includes an instrument scan, wasn't up to snuff!
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OT
Same with cars today with too many 'aids' for the driver. Never mind the 'safety equipment' that make drivers fell invincible.
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:airplane: If I am not mistaken, the 777 is and was the first "composite material" build airliner. I think I remember them "ballywhoing" that when it first was intertroduced 4 years ago.
777 was introduced more like 15 years ago. The 787 was the first airliner with a mostly composite Wing. That was about 4 years ago with planes entering service in the past year or so.
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777 = Dependable and lovable.
787 = Dreamlighter.
There was a check airman sitting in the right seat who would have been outperformed by an inflatable doll autopilot. There's a lot to be said when you can take a cockpit with what should be some experience, certainly enough to not crash an easy to fly airliner into a seawall and crash an easy to fly airliner into a seawall.
Icepac,
You don't need to be in "autoland" for autothrottles to, well, autothrottle. Depending on your vertical mode selected they'll either go all the way to max allowable power, idle power or maintain your airspeed. Sometimes they do a little of each, again depending on the mode. Autolands are rare, many are done for currency and others are done for real. They're not an every day occurance and they don't happen on fair weather days with an out of service glide slope. They can also be quite easily overridden while remaining engaged.
At any rate, was there actually a 777 question was it a rhetorical "where was the check airman" question? He couldn't see because his mouth was closed.
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heres a little bit of secret info on the boing 777 for yall. the wiring in the 777 is wrapped with a special thin ptfe film that is colored and laser printable. it was made for BOING by a small company in newtown,pa called plastomer products,i worked there when i was in my 20's. the color was more uniform than any other ptfe film due to plastomer products patent on the process to make it,and what sold BOING was the fact that we could make it in 1.5mm thickness and at great length in out extruding process. plastomer products had contracts with MD(macdonnald douglass)boeing,and airbus(scarebus),in the aircraft industries,they also provided material process to the panels on the space shuttle for 2 years. it was later found out that the 1.5 mm film was not as good as it was supposed to be...AND was highly flammable. the contract was later cancelled. plastomer products was a division of colt firearms(good thing i got my delta elite at cost)and had been a subsiduary of a little company called GORE...who had the brilliant idea to take plastomer products ptfe film and heat it up on material,thereby melding them together to create....dum DUM dum...GORTEX, gore split and made gore tex on their own,colt firearms was bought by a private company,and plastomer company had its departments split up to other companies in the corporation.and polytetraflouroethylene is still used in the A/C industry.
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heres a little bit of secret info on the boing 777 for yall. the wiring in the 777 is wrapped with a special thin ptfe film that is colored and laser printable. it was made for BOING by a small company in newtown,pa called plastomer products,i worked there when i was in my 20's. the color was more uniform than any other ptfe film due to plastomer products patent on the process to make it,and what sold BOING was the fact that we could make it in 1.5mm thickness and at great length in out extruding process. plastomer products had contracts with MD(macdonnald douglass)boeing,and airbus(scarebus),in the aircraft industries,they also provided material process to the panels on the space shuttle for 2 years. it was later found out that the 1.5 mm film was not as good as it was supposed to be...AND was highly flammable. the contract was later cancelled. plastomer products was a division of colt firearms(good thing i got my delta elite at cost)and had been a subsiduary of a little company called GORE...who had the brilliant idea to take plastomer products ptfe film and heat it up on material,thereby melding them together to create....dum DUM dum...GORTEX, gore split and made gore tex on their own,colt firearms was bought by a private company,and plastomer company had its departments split up to other companies in the corporation.and polytetraflouroethylene is still used in the A/C industry.
I'm sure Kevin Bacon fits in there somewhere! ;)
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Icepac,
You don't need to be in "autoland" for autothrottles to, well, autothrottle. Depending on your vertical mode selected they'll either go all the way to max allowable power, idle power or maintain your airspeed. Sometimes they do a little of each, again depending on the mode.
I understand but didn't think of posting every single situation in which throttles might have been retarded right before the pilot took command resulting in him having been "handed" a bird with a lower power setting than optimal.