Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Arlo on July 11, 2013, 12:37:03 PM
-
A HO takes 2; One to initiate and one to take the bait.
It is incredibly easy to avoid them.
Lies. If a guy wants to HO-ram you, you're going to take damage regardless of what you do. Pull up? Shot to the belly. Dive down? Shot to the cockpit. Break left? Shot to the wing. Break right? Shot to the wing. The only reason the HO-rammer fails to kill you is because 90% of the time, it's a scrub who can't aim worth a dime in the first place. If a top notch pilot wanted to HO you, you'd take damage no matter what you did.
Wow. You don't know how to evade the HO so it can't be done?
DA. Give me a 410/190/110. You try to evade it. Bet you you can't.
Nope, it's true. Either that or there are less "top notch" pilots that I thought.
How does one avoid a HO then. I am fairly ok in a 38 and often get HO'd, the typical spit16 driver who comes straight up at you as you are trying to out climb him. Obviously to gain speed I need to put the nose down and going in for the kill see the spixteen coming straight up at me. I try to avoid but I get shot probably 50% of the time and more often than I would like, as I divert, they divert and turn it into a HO/Ram as I do not have enough reaction time to get totally out the way.
I would love to know how to avoid the HO, I see a few people saying, "easy to avoid", ok, explain how?
Mmmmbecause you're a practiced HO expert? I 've been successfully dodging HOs for a decade and a half. After you embarrass yourself trying to show me how great a HOer you are, I'll teach you. :D
:lol Never thought I'd see the day where someone asks to get HOed. Sure. What's your IGN pal? And afterwards, maybe we can get an actually duel match going on. ;)
Plenty of prancing ninnies tried to ho my B-25H yesterday... :t
On a side note, that one I'll never be able to understand... A guy who is so timid he won't engage at all if he doesn't hold the whole deck and an additional pair of jokers, who makes his only attack attempt a head on where he puts himself into the most precarious position he can allowing his enemy to have a solution on him...
I mean :headscratch: :huh :confused: :confused:
-
Then surely you are capable of offering a different one and we can discuss the differences. :)
Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?
Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?
I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.
-
It amazes me that people will try and HO a B-25H. Had one come at me and I blasted him a 1000 yards out with the 75mm cannon.
ack-ack
:) Don't scare Arlo like that.
ill take ya up on that :aok
I don't find head-ons hard to avoid unless I'm very slow, and if I'm very slow with the enemy being able to point his guns at me, I deserve to get hit.
In the cases where I have decent speed, I just fly off angle to the attacker, then pull g's in a different direction back toward him (still off angle, but a different off angle) as he comes into the about the 800-yard range. It is rare that I take any hits, and when I do, they are usually not major hits.
Bet I can every time....
The odds are in favor of the person evading the HO Titanic. I could avoid HO shots all day man. It isn't that hard. You get unlucky sometimes for sure.
Yea, if you're already making maneuvers to avoid at 2K away, then it's not hard. But in a multi con engagement where you only have a short distance to react (400-600), then I would love to see someone avoid a HO like that.
So, you're saying you're the best at HOing when you're not only in German metal but the other guy is distracted and he doesn't see you coming? Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm right impressed. :lol
HO rant/whines are overrated. :D
Yes. The guy who gets on 200 almost everyday ask for some one to duel likes to HO. Yes. The guy who asked people to up from a field today because there were no fights is the best at HOing. Yep. Boy, I sure love to HO. I mean I haven't made countless posts about promoting dogfights and fighting til the death at all. Nope, HOing and vulching is all I do.
Oh, and in case you still don't get it. That first paragraph was sarcasm. Wait, gotta spell it out clearly too. I don't advocate HOing, I simply stated that if someone wanted to HOram you, they will, even if it means they die in the process. Now if you want to go ahead and test this out, I'm willing. Any plane you like, doesn't have to be German, or American or British or Japanese or Italian or Russian.
Dumb people are overrated.
Yes, they are. :lol
Still waiting boyo. Any time you wanna prove your intelligence, lemme know.
If you only see the guy coming in from 400-600 yards out, that's on you. If your SA is overwhelmed, I'd think the far more logical whine would be the fact that you're being ganged, rather than what angle you're being shot from.
Never understood why people seem to think they should be able to shout 'HOME FREE!' when their nose is pointed at the other plane.
Wiley.
:rolleyes:
So if it's a 1v1 and you get HOed, your SA is overwhelmed?
not sure why you would reply in that manner, it is obvious he was replying to your multi con scenario... :rolleyes:
-
Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?
-
Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?
Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?
I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.
To me, I consider it an attempted HO if I'm headed toward an enemy and from the time I see him, all I see is -o-, and at around 1000 yards I start hearing gunfire as I do my avoidance thing. If I'd so chosen, I could've put my pipper on him and returned fire.
As to the second scenario, that is more the fault of the being outnumbered. I've been on both sides of that one, and if someone's TnBing with some stuff on the deck when the guy come in to get him, the low plane can go full circle a couple times from the time the plane coming in commits to the time he shoots. The fact that they wind up meeting nose to nose is incidental, and IMO one of the few times the guy on the bottom is justified in taking the HO shot.
Wiley.
-
He has to feel big somehow. Still haven't seen a PM or a time set up. :rofl
-
Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?
Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?
I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.
Think of head-on attacks as jousting. Two knights (so to speak) sinking spurs and aiming their lances at each others chest.
In your first example you are describing someone avoiding or attempting to avoid a head-on attack. So we have one pilot attempting and one avoiding. At that point, there's no joust. If the attacker presses and manages to hit, it's a failed maneuver on the defenders part. The key word is defender. That pilot went on the defensive. A head-on attack (joust) involves no defensive technique applied.
(Let me amend this. Bombers can be attacked head-on. This is generally not a mutual thing.)
Your second example involves a situational snap-shot. The attacker that is entering a furball is not capable of keeping his guns looking down the sights of any one specific target. The other planes are maneuvering already, they are engaged. If he manages to hit a plane 'in the face' it is because they turned their plane and the bullet or cannon rounds struck at that moment.
Now, if a plane managed to disengage from the fray and head straight for the lone pilot heading into the fray and they both line up sights on each other to fire (whether both fire, then, or not) ... that is a head-on engagement.
-
Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?
looks like an Arlo copy and paste quote frenzy to me... :lol he could be attempting to create some context but ya never know about them texicans.
Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?
no and it depends on the situation. most of the time in an initial merge 1v1, it's like a game of chicken, first person to twitch gets shot at, first person to open fire is a ho-tard.
Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?
I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.
if the sphincter that jumped into the fray is the one that is shooting you in the face right off the bat without any attempt to get a different firing solution, then yes.
-
Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?
No, this is a discussion about head-on attacks, their actual definition, their actual threat and the tactics involved. TitanMD's involvement is merely what he chooses it to be.
-
looks like an Arlo copy and paste quote frenzy to me... :lol he could be attempting to create some context but ya never know about them texicans.
no and it depends on the situation. most of the time in an initial merge 1v1, it's like a game of chicken, first person to twitch gets shot at, first person to open fire is a ho-tard.
if the sphincter that jumped into the fray is the one that is shooting you in the face right off the bat without any attempt to get a different firing solution, then yes.
I'm responding to both an OP request and a fellow poster's suggestion that the HO topic be a separate one from the original intent of the other thread. :D
-
To me, I consider it an attempted HO if I'm headed toward an enemy and from the time I see him, all I see is -o-, and at around 1000 yards I start hearing gunfire as I do my avoidance thing. If I'd so chosen, I could've put my pipper on him and returned fire.
As to the second scenario, that is more the fault of the being outnumbered. I've been on both sides of that one, and if someone's TnBing with some stuff on the deck when the guy come in to get him, the low plane can go full circle a couple times from the time the plane coming in commits to the time he shoots. The fact that they wind up meeting nose to nose is incidental, and IMO one of the few times the guy on the bottom is justified in taking the HO shot.
Wiley.
I agree Wiley. Unfortunately I seem to have the most fun trawling around low and / or on my own. It's one of those toaster situations: difficult to strike the balance between underdone and burned. I don't complain about it when they take that shot (there's be no point anyway), it's just clear to me that those ones are more concerned with kills than skills <shrug>
-
He has to feel big somehow. Still haven't seen a PM or a time set up. :rofl
(http://imageshack.us/a/img819/425/b8ln.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img341/9474/t1g8.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/5738/trbq.png)
Sorry, the onus is on you to be there for your own parties
and make all the arrangements, doilies or whatever. ;)
You claimed to be online. This is the second attempt made
to give you a chance to prove your supposed point. We're
having a serious discussion here. If you're up to it, participate.
:D
-
Think of head-on attacks as jousting. Two knights (so to speak) sinking spurs and aiming their lances at each others chest.
In your first example you are describing someone avoiding or attempting to avoid a head-on attack. So we have one pilot attempting and one avoiding. At that point, there's no joust. If the attacker presses and manages to hit, it's a failed maneuver on the defenders part. The key word is defender. That pilot went on the defensive. A head-on attack (joust) involves no defensive technique applied.
Your second example involves a situational snap-shot. The attacker that is entering a furball is not capable of keeping his guns looking down the sights of any one specific target. The other planes are maneuvering already, they are engaged. If he manages to hit a plane 'in the face' it is because they turned their plane and the bullet or cannon rounds struck at that moment.
Now, if a plane managed to disengage from the fray and head straight for the lone pilot heading into the fray and they both line up sights on each other to fire (whether both fire, then, or not) ... that is a head-on engagement.
I still think firing on the merge is a HO though. I hasten to add I learned this here. This is my first and only flight sim. I also once read in a US Navy manual that a HO was any shot into the front of the 3-9 line.
I generally do not fire into the front half of an aircraft although I do like crossing shots so sometimes it's a dodgy call (especially against something turney like a Zero). Surely I'm not the only one who holds fire sometimes even after the merge?
Anyway, I have HOed a few times myself in my four years of play. Once I tried to HO DrDeath's chog at 1000 yards in a P-39 for laughs, but I missed (narrowly). I accidentally shot my friend in the face on the bottom of a rope attempt, he'd turned in the sun & I couldn't tell front from back and also I once HOed a 190 in a Mosquito when he fired at 1500 yards to see what would happen. It was a big mess.
-
I still think firing on the merge is a HO though.
It is if the merge is head-on.
-
It is if the merge is head-on.
Aha! But they are always head on, just not necessarily precisely head on.
-
Aha! But they are always head on, just not necessarily precisely head on.
Actually, there are advantageous and disadvantageous merges. If someone bounces you
from above it is still a merge (as it would be if you did the bouncing). You can high side
approach. You can even close on a six. In a duel, there is an arranged neutral merge.
-
(http://troll.me/images/pissed-off-obama/you-got-all-the-hoes.jpg)
-
*edit* friggin Arlo faster on the draw than me again...
Actually, there are advantageous and disadvantageous merges. If someone bounces you
from above it is still a merge (as it would be if you did the bouncing). You can high side
approach. You can even close on a six. In a duel, there is an arranged neutral merge.
true...
-
if the sphincter that jumped into the fray is the one that is shooting you in the face right off the bat without any attempt to get a different firing solution, then yes.
I will admit on occasion I've been that sphincter. It's not my preferred way of fighting, but when they're taking too long playing with their food, sometimes I choose to give them a hand. The thing is, as I stated, what can start out as a rear attack can change aspects many times on the way down. Yes, sometimes when I've done this I was coming in from ridiculous alt too... I am a bad bad man. ;) In my defense, I usually only do something like this lately when defending a goon or something along those lines.
The point is, you can either choose to abort the shot, or take it and possibly put down the bandit. The way they're facing at this point is pretty much pointless IMO.
Think of head-on attacks as jousting. Two knights (so to speak) sinking spurs and aiming their lances at each others chest.
In your first example you are describing someone avoiding or attempting to avoid a head-on attack. So we have one pilot attempting and one avoiding. At that point, there's no joust. If the attacker presses and manages to hit, it's a failed maneuver on the defenders part. The key word is defender. That pilot went on the defensive. A head-on attack (joust) involves no defensive technique applied.
But the guy that takes the shot is still carrying through on his HO, regardless of what the other pilot is doing. You're technically correct, which some say is the best kind of correct, but I still consider it a HO if a guy comes in front quarter guns blazing with no thought for any other kind of set up. If the second pilot had cooperated, it would have been a ho.
Wiley.
-
But the guy that takes the shot is still carrying through on his HO, regardless of what the other pilot is doing. You're technically correct, which some say is the best kind of correct, but I still consider it a HO if a guy comes in front quarter guns blazing with no thought for any other kind of set up. If the second pilot had cooperated, it would have been a ho.
I consider it an attempted ho, myself. It also makes me smile. Sometimes laugh. I lost an elevator
on my I-16 after the 12th attempted HO on me (actually from behind by his wingman) in the 2nd
frame of Typhoon. That made me stop laughing for a little bit. :D
-
*edit* friggin Arlo faster on the draw than me again...
true...
Posting too much and flying too little. Yeah, I admit it. :(
-
I consider it an attempted ho, myself. It also makes me smile. Sometimes laugh. I lost an elevator
on my I-16 after the 12th attempted HO on me (actually from behind by his wingman) in the 2nd
frame of Typhoon. That made me stop laughing for a little bit. :D
By your definition, for it to be an actual 'HO' both pilots have committed to it. Nobody's got any legitimate reason to complain if he's chosen to put his pipper on the dead 12 of an incoming aircraft. It seems to me the only thing worth talking about is 'attempted ho's'.
Then you've got some people who call it a HO if you fire at them from in front of the 3-9 line on their plane, and that makes me laugh even harder.
To me, it's mostly about the approach. If you're coming in from say, between 11-1 o'clock of the enemy plane who isn't maneuvering hard, from 1500-2000 yards out or further, guns blazing, that's an attempted HO.
Wiley.
-
(http://imageshack.us/a/img819/425/b8ln.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img341/9474/t1g8.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/5738/trbq.png)
Sorry, the onus is on you to be there for your own parties
and make all the arrangements, doilies or whatever. ;)
You claimed to be online. This is the second attempt made
to give you a chance to prove your supposed point. We're
having a serious discussion here. If you're up to it, participate.
:D
:rofl Right, and I'm supposed to magically know your IGN? How bout you show them the chat log? Oh wait, what chat log? No words were even spoken between us.
I'll spare some of my time with people like you for the sake of the argument. 2:46 EST, you're not on by 3 EST, I'm not waiting around any longer.
-
:rofl Right, and I'm supposed to magically know your IGN? How bout you show them the chat log? Oh wait, what chat log? No words were even spoken between us.
I'll spare some of my time with people like you for the sake of the argument. 2:46 EST, you're not on by 3 EST, I'm not waiting around any longer.
Your time? Your needs. ;)
-
Let me know when the definition of "HO" is settled.
**Takes deep breath and holding...holding...***
-
(http://imageshack.us/a/img819/425/b8ln.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img341/9474/t1g8.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/5738/trbq.png)
Sorry, the onus is on you to be there for your own parties
and make all the arrangements, doilies or whatever. ;)
You claimed to be online. This is the second attempt made
to give you a chance to prove your supposed point. We're
having a serious discussion here. If you're up to it, participate.
:D
He was online this morning, he doesn't have a star by his name for his name to appear near the other "T" names. He landed 8 in P51 and shortly after headed over to the DA with some squaddies I asked him to train. Maybe you should look a bit harder next time or even for that matter ".f TitanMD" works really well.
He is on my squad roster, he was online this morning.
-
When people avoid the HO(especially early on) the present themselves as a tasty target :old: :bolt:
-
Well well .... Titan is a pretty good HO. I admit. Still not concerned, though. :D
-
I just think the term is Head On, not Pipper On. At the end of the day a ghey shot is a ghey shot and everyone knows it.
-
When people avoid the HO(especially early on) the present themselves as a tasty target :old: :bolt:
Now THAT's an interesting conversation. What is it about avoiding the HO that makes you more vulnerable after the merge? If I'm engaging, it's generally given me a window into a lead turn that I feel pretty decent about.
Wiley.
-
Anyone else wanna take their turn at proving the point that you can dodge all HOs?
-
I can't fly at the moment but I'd like to see the movies from both ends if poss.
-
Now THAT's an interesting conversation. What is it about avoiding the HO that makes you more vulnerable after the merge? If I'm engaging, it's generally given me a window into a lead turn that I feel pretty decent about.
Wiley.
Well depending on the situation, i may or may not take the shot. Furball? Im ending ASAP. if its 1v1, i sometimes just turn onto thier 6.
And sometimes i do it just so i can see them go poof :t
-
I can't fly at the moment but I'd like to see the movies from both ends if poss.
Sure, will post them later. Though tbh, it isn't that interesting.
-
I can't fly at the moment but I'd like to see the movies from both ends if poss.
He can show both. I'm not skilled at movie posting, alas. =0)
110 HOing my beloved 1A three times. Pit, wingtip and tail. I'm gonna hafta chip off my avoidance rust, to say the least. :D
-
Sure, will post them later. Though tbh, it isn't that interesting.
C'mon, at least be a classy brag. ;)
-
what range did Titanic start firing at?
-
I just want to see if it would work against my method.
-
Anyone else wanna take their turn at proving the point that you can dodge all HOs?
there are some you cant avoid. like if your like if your in a 262 its HOing for days :bhead
Or your in a 47heavy right off the runway :old:
-
what range did Titanic start firing at?
800-600. In a 110 with heavy gun pack.
-
what range did Titanic start firing at?
round 500-600ish. But then, he was expecting avoidance. That does make a difference. I'll give him props for it, though. I tried new things that didn't play out. Roll ins are not advised. :lol
-
800-600. In a 110 with heavy gun pack.
If I wasn't so tired I would go on...now I wanna see :D
we have to set it up for later tonight after some ZZZ's........or tomorrow :old:
-
800-600. In a 110 with heavy gun pack.
round 500-600ish.
hmmm... a slight discrepancy from each perspective...
-
Well depending on the situation, i may or may not take the shot. Furball? Im ending ASAP. if its 1v1, i sometimes just turn onto thier 6.
And sometimes i do it just so i can see them go poof :t
Well, yeah. But that's just describing a merge in general. I've seen people mention that avoiding the HO puts you at a disadvantage versus merging in a manner that doesn't take it into account. I was just wondering if that was what you meant.
Wiley.
-
If I wasn't so tired I would go on...now I wanna see :D
we have to set it up for later tonight after some ZZZ's........or tomorrow :old:
Sure, I'm usually on between 10AM-3PM EST before I work.
-
hmmm... a slight discrepancy from each perspective...
internet.. two players will never see each other in the same spaces at the exact same times.. perspective. :salute
-
Sure, I'm usually on between 10AM-3PM EST before I work.
It'll have to be a weekend for us then, as I'm working during those hours. This weekend's kinda tied up for me, wife stuff, but will try to find you at some point.
Wiley.
-
Ahhh ..... you logged to work. Sounded like we were gonna test ramming and I was gonna take on your 190 and 410 in different plane types. You were looking good. Lets give it a right good testing. :) :salute
-
It'll have to be a weekend for us then, as I'm working during those hours. This weekend's kinda tied up for me, wife stuff, but will try to find you at some point.
Wiley.
Sure, send a PM with the time and I'll see if I can make it. Or just send me a time during the weekday and I might be able to make it.
-
First HO - 800 yards - Hits at 400.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNpxdIAQAQ
(http://i.imgur.com/qmx0cX1.jpg)
Second HO - 800 Yards - Hits at 200.
(http://i.imgur.com/jEFBXuH.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/G78uaDr.png)
Sorry for the bad film quality. Unfortunately, I forgot to turn back on the recorder on the third attempt, but outcome was the same.
And again, in case some one fails to read what I've been saying this whole time. i don't advocate HOing, but my point is that if a competent pilot wants to HO you, they will.
-
Thanks Titan. From the movie it looked like Arlo was merging in plane which made him vulnerable. i don't know what the agreed conditions were.
And again, in case some one fails to read what I've been saying this whole time. i don't advocate HOing, but my point is that if a competent pilot wants to HO you, they will.
Never doubted it.
-
It was pretty much do whatever you can do avoid it after 1K.
-
Steve said it a long time ago and it has stuck with me ever since for it's simple truth; it takes two to HO. In my experience, getting lateral and vertical separation and avoiding staying in a predictable plane of flight for the duration of the merge will foil almost all HO attempts. If the HOer is that intent on HOing, he usually sacrifices all positioning and hopes for winning the fight if he misses his one fleeting shot. As Titan pointed out, however, there will always be scenarios where you are simply out of E and unable to get the necessary evasive maneuvers in before being hit and in those cases there's nothing you can really do but hope for a miss or try to knock him out first.
-
It was pretty much do whatever you can do avoid it after 1K.
And I'd be remiss in not congratulating you and admitting that there apparently are indeed some skilled sticks that are difficult to avoid, when it comes to HOs. Likely, the thousands of HOs I've managed to avoid over the years weren't as skilled. But then, that's half the point. Also, I've never claimed to be the best at anything in AH. Nor have I seen anyone else in this thread claim so. But I wouldn't be surprised if more than one who have lined up to avoid your HOs in this test of HO avoiding may well succeed where I have so abysmally failed. As you said, any plane, any pilot.
It may come to that.
However, I'm offering you both a salute and a handshake. :) :salute :cheers:
-
The 1k thing is an interesting wrinkle. With that in mind, if I do indeed get slapped down under those conditions, I'd be curious to try with the limit being at 1.3k do what I can. At 1.0k, you're less than a tenth of a second from firing. Plane can't move much in that time. I'm still interested though.
Wiley.
-
Yeah 1k is a bit close. I'm usually set up as TonyJoey suggested long before that in a normal merge. Holding still and offering the HO shot and then pulling the rug out just when they're about to fire is comedy gold. Especially when they realize after that first merge what going for that shot cost them. I don't know why but it makes me think of The Three Stooges :lol
-
So then I propose a test. Wiley (or whoever wants to try it with me), we start the merge but each time that I successfully kill/damage you, we move back the distance that you can start maneuvering. So ex: 1K, you die, we move back 1.5K, etc etc. and then if I can't hit you at the 1K distance at all, then we move closer. Until we figure out the point where HOing is avoidable and unavoidable. Although I think by the time it's 2K or more, it's not a HO anymore, it's just prepping for the merge.
-
So then I propose a test. Wiley (or whoever wants to try it with me), we start the merge but each time that I successfully kill/damage you, we move back the distance that you can start maneuvering. So ex: 1K, you die, we move back 1.5K, etc etc. and then if I can't hit you at the 1K distance at all, then we move closer. Until we figure out the point where HOing is avoidable and unavoidable. Although I think by the time it's 2K or more, it's not a HO anymore, it's just prepping for the merge.
Sounds good to me. My general strategy for avoiding HO's I like to start around 2k, but I believe at 1.3 I will have a decent chance of avoiding it. Sounds like fun. We'll start at 1k and see what happens.
Looking at the thread, I think some of us are talking about 2 different things or possibly 2 ways to approach it.
What I use as 'HO avoidance' in the MA is what I believe you're referring to as prepping for the merge. I look at it as the other guy may be coming in for the face shot but I don't give it to him.
It's probably gonna turn out we're both more or less 'right' depending on how we define the conditions. :)
Wiley.
-
So then I propose a test. Wiley (or whoever wants to try it with me), we start the merge but each time that I successfully kill/damage you, we move back the distance that you can start maneuvering. So ex: 1K, you die, we move back 1.5K, etc etc. and then if I can't hit you at the 1K distance at all, then we move closer. Until we figure out the point where HOing is avoidable and unavoidable. Although I think by the time it's 2K or more, it's not a HO anymore, it's just prepping for the merge.
Then all you're confirming is the old adage 'it takes 2 to ho' and it's not the crisis you're attempting to make it out to be.
I inadvertently interrupted a training session Kazaa and another of your squadies was having. Twas `tween engagements
and their typing fingers were broken at the time. Never-the-less, I apologized for the transgression. All in all, though, the
DA experience was fine. Thanks, the lot of ya. And another salute to yas for coming up with the HO DA test thing ... and
Hoing successfully. :) :salute
-
I also once read in a US Navy manual that a HO was any shot into the front of the 3-9 line.
That's correct, I read that too. But people here will get all bent if you use the terms front shot and HO synonymously. It's as if they feel one term is more derogatory. There used to be a game wherein HO/front shots didn't work, they just wouldn't connect. As a result players in that game who learned to be good in 190s and p51s were very good, and when they came over to aces high they cleaned house.
-
A ho is a perfectly legitimate tactic. It is allowed in game, it was historically done, measures can be done to avoid it. Certain situations would call for this to be a superior tactic.
If you are one of the ones complaining, you are the problem. You do not understand the game, you do not understand aircraft armor and armament, and you clearly know nothing about tactics, or maneuvering. If you are thinking that a fight in the MA is some kind of chivalrous duel where you toast your enemy afterwards you are mistaken. There are other ways to do that if that is how you want to play.
Of course it seems from flying in the MA all the "non ho'ers" make an exception when I am flying a 262. Because EVERYONE will HO if given half an opportunity. So it is apparently wrong to do, except when there is an exception to the rule. Wait...what? :huh
So it must be the 262 is so awesome it is totally ok to kill one with a HO...even if you think it is wrong. Makes sense, a 262 is superior to any aircraft.
But it is wrong (as an example) for a slow heavy and poorly maneuvering 190A8 to HO a fast, nimble Spit 16.... :headscratch: That does not make sense because a Spit 16 is superior to a 190A8.
Here is a new word to add to your vocabulary for alot of you out there :) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
-
Good post. :) :salute :cheers:
-
A ho is a perfectly legitimate tactic. It is allowed in game, it was historically done, measures can be done to avoid it. Certain situations would call for this to be a superior tactic.
If you are one of the ones complaining, you are the problem. You do not understand the game, you do not understand aircraft armor and armament, and you clearly know nothing about tactics, or maneuvering. If you are thinking that a fight in the MA is some kind of chivalrous duel where you toast your enemy afterwards you are mistaken. There are other ways to do that if that is how you want to play.
Of course it seems from flying in the MA all the "non ho'ers" make an exception when I am flying a 262. Because EVERYONE will HO if given half an opportunity. So it is apparently wrong to do, except when there is an exception to the rule. Wait...what? :huh
So it must be the 262 is so awesome it is totally ok to kill one with a HO...even if you think it is wrong. Makes sense, a 262 is superior to any aircraft.
But it is wrong (as an example) for a slow heavy and poorly maneuvering 190A8 to HO a fast, nimble Spit 16.... :headscratch: That does not make sense because a Spit 16 is superior to a 190A8.
Here is a new word to add to your vocabulary for alot of you out there :) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
Your post may apply to some, but here's how I see it.
Everyone (including myself) will HO a 262 because usually, it is the only chance you have at killing one short of a lucky ping from 800 yards out or take off/landing. When you're in a 190A8 going against a Spit16, a 190A8 will usually HO because usually, that will be the only chance it has. I personally don't HO unless its a last ditch effort, ie, I'm pilot wounded or half a wing and know I'll die anyway. However, if you HO me and miss, bet your butt next merge you're getting shot at.
As for your point on the "non Hoers" having no knowledge on tactics...well, I'm sure more than a few, including myself are willing to put that to the test. :) The issue here isn't whether HOibg is right or wrong, this whole argument began because Arlo didnt believe that a HO can be unavoidable. The results are on page 4. :)
-
Everyone (including myself) will HO a 262 because usually, it is the only chance you have at killing one short of a lucky ping from 800 yards out or take off/landing.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img39/4260/i31.png)
Vas is das? Ping und powing mine uberschturmbirdie?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img33/5411/9bg.png)
Das ist not mine afterburner!
(http://imageshack.us/a/img560/3232/2rb3.png)
Oof, mien windows bloodymesserhoffen!
:D
-
There used to be a game wherein HO/front shots didn't work, they just wouldn't connect. As a result players in that game who learned to be good in 190s and p51s were very good, and when they came over to aces high they cleaned house.
Air Warrior had a hit bubble. Instead of hits being calculated on particular parts of the aircraft as in aces high, there was a sphere around an aircraft and probability of hitting depended on whether you hit the front half or back half of the sphere. Front shots had an enormously lower probability of damage.
Air Warrior pilots making the transition often were good in acm, but gunnery took a lot of getting used to.
-
I probably should've bolded "usually". Reading comprehension fails you yet again Mr. Arlo. I'm pretty sure everyone who flew for a decent amount of time has their own set of 262 kills similar to yours, including everyone in this thread probably.
-
The Air Warrior frontal cone of invulnerability. I remember those forum dis-cuss-ions. I think
I recall some ramming concerns voiced. I don't recall Kelton's responses but I think it was
probably a case of the veterans in the community suggesting avoidance technique. That may
be where I first picked up on such. :D
-
I probably should've bolded "usually". Reading comprehension fails you yet again Mr. Arlo. I'm pretty sure everyone who flew for a decent amount of time has their own set of 262 kills similar to yours, including everyone in this thread probably.
Nope, I'm still good. Carry on. :aok
-
Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?
Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?
I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.
I will answer that:
1) yes - especially if the opponent has actually started a merge (intention to fight), then it should be assumed that you can also now merge properly and begin the fight. Of course, after that, its really all game really. . .
2) Quantity - this is to say that for some, being in a 1v2 is seen as a disadvantage and will engage in HOing - this in my opinion is correct since the opposing two airplanes should have a massive ACM advantage (a strong pair can take 6 to 8 single-files) and don't need to accept any ho. Conversely, those who HO when at a numeric advantage are real prettythang' imo. . .
it is about class basically, if you lack grace and a sense of sportsmanship then that is fine - but recognize that that is not skill.
Skill is grace in combat and a sense of sportsmanship - this is a video game after all. . .
Overall I don't HO because I think I have more then a 50% chance (well in the planes I fly. . .20% :D ) against most people. . . and if I don't, then I welcome the challenge.
-
If you are thinking that a fight in the MA is some kind of chivalrous duel where you toast your enemy afterwards you are mistaken. There are other ways to do that if that is how you want to play.
I then am mistaken, I will seek the above types out in the MA and have a great time of it for as long as it last, there are many here who seek the same type engagements. Any two weeker can lift a craft off the ground and point the nose at another plane pull the trigger, rinse and repeat, little skill is needed for that, many will chalk you up as a noob or a no skill wonder if your every merge or every other merge is a HO attempt, regardless of your skill level, which I tend to concur with but then again we types are mistaken so no harm no foul, sorry been palying many moons and I doubt this belief will change.
A choice of game play MK -84, yours is one I choose not to participate in........but may have to endure when are paths cross ingame.
-
Any two weeker can lift a craft off the ground and point the nose at another plane pull the trigger, rinse and repeat, little skill is needed for that, many will chalk you up as a noob or a no skill wonder if your every merge or every other merge is a HO attempt, regardless of your skill level, which I tend to concur with but then again we types are mistaken so no harm no foul, sorry been palying many moons and I doubt this belief will change.
I may suggest, however, not presuming that those who aren't prone to complain or condemn
head-on attacks (even poke at those who are prone to such) are two-weekers who got
nothing but HOing on their resume'.
Most of us are just anti-whiners who see whining as more detrimental than the subject
matter of the whine.
:) :salute :cheers:
-
Arlo didnt believe that a HO can be unavoidable. The results are on page 4. :)
Even you admit they are avoidable outside the 1k window. And I still have a good percentage at the 1k window then the opponent doesn't expect a dodge. If I recall, you started out by claiming that a HO cannot be avoided no matter what ... then backed off if it was at 2k or so. I was cocky about the 1k range in a 'test' setting. I admit that. :D
But ... bottom line ... those whining that HOs and RAMS can never be avoided and that it's the end of civilized AH due to such if we don't berate and whine on 200 or through PMs or on the forum .... well, that kinda uptightness requires meds or getting laid or something. The easiest 'code' to follow is the physical code of the game.
-
I was cocky...
That's not like you Arlo, perhaps you were having an off day.
-
That's not like you Arlo, perhaps you were having an off day.
Eh, what can I say? Didn't hug a tree. Forgot to pray for the whales. It was fun but I'm
not all that sure it proved what DrTitan thought it did. All it seemed to prove is that the
110 is a stable and gunned up platform and if someone keeps their face pointed at it
at 1k or less it makes for a good HOride. The artful dodger tends to have more success
then the other guy isn't expecting a dodge ... BUT ... I knew what I was getting into and
props to the doc. 3 for 3. He got the cookie, not me. ;)
-
Indeed. I think I recall you said something about a humility test :)
-
Indeed. I think I recall you said something about a humility test :)
And I do believe I came straight to this thread and offered my complete and utter admiration
for the 3-ho-in-a-row-run. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m7mIy97_rlo
:D
-
And I do believe I came straight to this thread and offered my complete and utter admiration
for the 3-ho-in-a-row-run. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m7mIy97_rlo
:D
:lol I do admire your irrepressibility.
-
Waiting till you're 1k to attempt to avoid a HO is the equivalent of waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
-
...waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
Why wasn't I told this earlier? :furious
-
Waiting till you're 1k to attempt to avoid a HO is the equivalent of waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
Makes me wish I'd kept film from the 2nd and 3rd frames of the Typhoon FSO. 109s vs I-16s. There were more HO passes
from Messerschmidts than Carter has little liver pills, usually with a lead then their wingie, one after the other. Apparently
it makes a difference if they don't expect you to dodge or they aren't Titan. :)
Did keep a few pics. None of them show the guns blazing on the pass, though. :(
(http://imageshack.us/a/img844/9035/a8hj.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img18/1812/1wid.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img5/6326/6xqv.png)
Actually, looking at them, I think those are three perspectives of the same pass.
-
my complete and utter admiration for the 3-ho-in-a-row-run. :D
Just to round this off I'd like to say that in my experience TitanMD gives a clean and skillful fight and was at no point endorsing the HO in this 'discussion'.
-
Just to round this off I'd like to say that in my experience TitanMD gives a clean and skillful fight and was at no point endorsing the HO in this 'discussion'.
I don't think anyone in the thread was confused about the potential for such other than TitanMD, himself.
It was obvious that the DA HO test was intended to prove to the community his claim that any skilled
pilot intent on 'ho-ramming' (I was told by Titan in the DA that anyone that's been playing the game for ten
plus years should be familiar with this marriage of terms) WILL always succeed at such. It appears that this
is to support a case for community 'policing' (read - berating on 200, PMing endlessly, creating threads about,
compiling lists of, hunting down) anyone perceived as breaking this 'established' code of honor. And that's
supposed to make the game better. Like it 'used to be.' :D
(http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/screenshots/ah2102/page2/Fencer_BOB_3.jpg)
:D
-
Different factions believe different things about what constitutes good gameplay. Sometimes players move factions according to who was doing what to whom. :old:
-
To me, I consider it an attempted HO if I'm headed toward an enemy and from the time I see him, all I see is -o-, and at around 1000 yards I start hearing gunfire as I do my avoidance thing. If I'd so chosen, I could've put my pipper on him and returned fire.
Wiley.
I don't know what you mean by -o-...
But the amount of peeps in this game saying that they didn't HO you right after they just did is just too funny. It would appear most of these guys either don't want to admit it on 200 and therefore have it be known as their first choice of attack. Or it is a possibility that they aren't quite intelligent enough to figure out the geometry behind said engagement. It's a near guarantee that this will happen when a con comes in from either a couple turns with him or from bouncing above. As you stated, if I can get my pipper around on them, yet choose not to do it because I don't want to shoot them in the face, IT IS A HO to me. But when I say nice HO, the response is almost always along the lines of, HO??? I was going for rudder shot, or I was shooting the back of your plane how could it be a HO? Yeah that's why I have radiator hits, blood and poof - because of tail shots...It's even funnier when they say the didn't HO because of their position, they were inverted...lmao.
Lead turns are great, right up until your first lead turn to avoid HO puts you squarely in the path of another 2-5 HO'ers by different bish cons. Yes, I put myself there...but in this case it's not even the HO as a conscious choice, its the desperation for a killl that they have to HO him before the other does cause there are 5 of them here and won't get a kill this sortie...
-
Different factions believe different things about what constitutes good gameplay. Sometimes players move factions according to who was doing what to whom. :old:
Factions? :D This isn't political to me. This is obvious to me. ;) :cheers:
-
This is obvious to me. ;) :cheers:
That's because you are blessed with a perfect sense of the difference between what is correct and what everyone else thinks. Have you met GScholz yet?
-
That's because you are blessed with a perfect sense of the difference between what is correct and what everyone else thinks. Have you met GScholz yet?
Online? Of course. I appreciate the blessing you share with the community with your comparative skill and whatnot.
I'll try to keep that in mind while you judge my judgementalness. :D
-
Well it has been edifying talking with you in at least one regard Arlo: I thought that in Texas the largest hat available was a ten-gallon. Now I know for sure they must go right up to at least twenty. Splendid! :D
-
Well it has been edifying talking with you in at least one regard Arlo: I thought that in Texas the largest hat available was a ten-gallon. Now I know for sure they must go right up to at least twenty. Splendid! :D
Well, perception is one's reality, it's been said. I'll have to remember that my not buying into the whole 'lets whine about how other players play the game' thing somehow trips your 'boy what an ego you got' switch. :D
-
Well, perception is one's reality, it's beem said. I'll have to remember that my not buying into the whole 'lets whine about how other players play the game' thing somehow trips your 'boy what an ego you got' switch. :D
Perhaps I have overestimated the capacity of your hat. I have not asked you to buy into the 'don't HO school' nor have I 'whined' about it. I just didn't agree with your exceedingly narrow definition of it which seemed to me to be more a definition of 'Pipper On' than 'Head On'.
This didn't trigger any switch. I should have thought your ego, as you've called it, was rather apparent to everybody.
-
Perhaps I have overestimated the capacity of your hat. I have not asked you to buy into the 'don't HO school' nor have I 'whined' about it. I just didn't agree with your exceedingly narrow definition of it which seemed to me to be more a definition of 'Pipper On' than 'Head On'.
This didn't trigger any switch. I should have thought your ego, as you've called it, was rather apparent to everybody.
Since that's pretty much the extent of what I think about what's being discussed and you felt compelled to follow me around with an ego yardstick, what next?
:D
-
I don't know what you mean by -o-
It's a straight on frontal view of his plane. Fuselage and wings. In other words he's just pointing his nose at me directly.
As to your example it still sounds to me like the bigger problem is the ganging vs the angles they are shooting you from.
Wiley.
-
HO= no skill, point plane and fire away....THAT is what causes the greatest amount (and rightly so, IMO) of angst. WHY don't so many folks want to get better at this game? Get an Lgay, point Lgay at red thingie, fire at 1k (regardless what red thingie does), until ammo done....get another Lgay. I see people in here who are just MIND-numbingly good at this game...I fail to understand why so many OTHERS don't even wish to try and get there....or at least in that area code
-
Since that's pretty much the extent of what I think about what's being discussed and you felt compelled to follow me around with an ego yardstick, what next?
:D
Yeah I was bored. Descending into insults seem to be the established tradition, ploppy head. :P
How come you're a Plutonium Member Arlo, I don't remember seeing you before two months ago and now there seems to be an Arlo on every corner?
-
Yeah I was bored. Descending into insults seem to be the established tradition, ploppy head. :P
How come you're a Plutonium Member Arlo, I don't remember seeing you before two months ago and now there seems to be an Arlo on every corner?
Well, you probably would have had to have been in the game longer to know me from more than 2 months ago. :D
Huh. You felt insulted? Wasn't my intent and I'm not sure how you got there but I am glad to see you're above that. :aok
-
Well, you probably would have had to have been in the game longer to know me from more than 2 months ago. :D
Huh. You felt insulted? Wasn't my intent and I'm not sure how you got there but I am glad to see you're above that. :aok
No I didn't feel insulted, I understood that was the tradition at this point of a discussion on an internet forum :old:
-
No I didn't feel insulted, I understood that was the tradition at this point of a discussion on an internet forum :old:
Ah ..... 'tradition' ..... understanding 'tradition.' That seems a theme when it comes to reinventing the good `ol days.
We've all been there. Some more than others. Been there myself. But the worth of some ... 'traditions' ... as the desire
to 'keep them alive' ... can indeed be overrated, at times. You agree? :) ;)
-
are you two measuring winky's now? if ya gotta measure, it's not big enough.
-
are you two measuring winky's now? if ya gotta measure, it's not big enough.
He's measuring mine for some reason. I won't ask so I can't tell. ;)
Honestly, I didn't know my ego was so big until he told me.
You'd think someone in my squad would have said something years ago. :)
-
I haven't called it an ego. We all saw Arlo's winky get shot off by Titan in the film. Not easy hitting such a small target with a 30-mm :banana:
-
Well to be fair, I can't imagine anyone surviving a HO with a 110. I even asked him before we started if he was positive he could avoid it. "Yep".
I'm kinda excited to test it with Wiley tomorrow, or anyone else for that matter. It would be interesting to see if there's a method to avoiding something like that if it exists and using it in the MA.
-
Waiting till you're 1k to attempt to avoid a HO is the equivalent of waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
I do it all the time in the MA. Honestly the only reason it works is because the other guy can't aim worth a crap. I expected Arlo to break left or right, or even dive, but he decided to do a corkscrew. Which is why I'm curious to test this further
-
I haven't called it an ego. We all saw Arlo's winky get shot off by Titan in the film. Not easy hitting such a small target with a 30-mm :banana:
Well, the term 'head-on' takes on different meaning to different people, I reckon. *ShruG* :lol
-
Honestly the only reason it works is because the other guy can't aim worth a crap.
Huh. It's interesting watching your belief morph into something else every-time you post about the community HO crisis. :lol
-
Huh. It's interesting watching your belief morph into something else every-time you post about the community HO crisis. :lol
Lies. If a guy wants to HO-ram you, you're going to take damage regardless of what you do. Pull up? Shot to the belly. Dive down? Shot to the cockpit. Break left? Shot to the wing. Break right? Shot to the wing. The only reason the HO-rammer fails to kill you is because 90% of the time, it's a scrub who can't aim worth a dime in the first place. If a top notch pilot wanted to HO you, you'd take damage no matter what you did.
This was my first reply in the other thread.. :headscratch: my belief changed? What? :lol
-
This was my first reply in the other thread.. :headscratch: my belief changed? What? :lol
Mmmmmmmbecause you think those statements aren't contradictory. I get it. :) :salute
Shame on me for being so egotistical to notice this. :D
-
Are we speaking the same language? :headscratch:
-
I do it all the time in the MA. Honestly the only reason it works is because the other guy can't aim worth a crap. I expected Arlo to break left or right, or even dive, but he decided to do a corkscrew. Which is why I'm curious to test this further
And this has always been curious. You mention climbs, dives, and breaks as if you don't know the yaw axis exists.
You do know about the yaw axis (rudder, twisty), right? But a dive, climb break left or right are all the options. :)
-
And this has always been curious. You mention climbs, dives, and breaks as if you don't know the yaw axis exists.
You do know about the yaw axis (rudder, twisty), right? But a dive, climb break left or right are all the options. :)
Yea, because that yaw axis definitely saved you against the 110. :lol
-
Are we speaking the same language? :headscratch:
Let's examine:
Quote from: LilMak on Today at 02:05:25
Waiting till you're 1k to attempt to avoid a HO is the equivalent of waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
Your response
I do it all the time in the MA (avoid HOs). Honestly the only reason it works is because the other guy can't aim worth a crap (but you do it all the time).
HO crisis over. No fire here. Move along. :aok
-
Yea, because that yaw axis definitely saved you against the 110. :lol
Damn, you're right. I'm missing a prime opportunity to whine about HOs. :lol
-
Let's examine:
Quote from: LilMak on Today at 02:05:25
Waiting till you're 1k to attempt to avoid a HO is the equivalent of waiting till someone is 300 off your 6 to start evading.
Your response
I do it all the time in the MA (avoid HOs). Honestly the only reason it works is because the other guy can't aim worth a crap (but you do it all the time).
HO crisis over. No fire here. Move along. :aok
:huh I'm losing brain cells. Nrshida, save me.
-
Nrshida, save me.
How embarrassing, though it is his nature. :)
-
It's not turning off. What do I do?!
(http://i.imgur.com/Dz3nk.gif)
-
It's not turning off. What do I do?!
(http://i.imgur.com/Dz3nk.gif)
I understand. No really. I do. The players who HO must be stopped because it's ruining the game
and it's not as much fun as it used to be when players didn't HO. We must band together to stop
them before it's too late. HOs take no skill. Except that you can avoid the HOs from players who
aren't good at it. But if they were as skilled as you it really would be a crisis. They will only get better
with time if all they do is HO. But if all they do is HO they will never learn. The only way to stop them
is to form a player anti-HO police unit. Players who make fun of this are really the problem.
See? I've been keeping up with you all the time. :D :aok
-
I understand. No really. I do. The players who HO must be stopped because it's ruining the game
and it's not as much fun as it used to be when players didn't HO. We must band together to stop
them before it's too late. HOs take no skill. Except that you can avoid the HOs from players who
aren't good at it. But if they were as skilled as you it really would be a crisis. They will only get better
with time if all they do is HO. But if all they do is HO they will never learn. The only way to stop them
is to form a player anti-HO police unit. Players who make fun of this are really the problem.
See? I've been keeping up with you all the time. :D :aok
:rofl alright gang, lets go find ourselves some HOers, we gotta beat some sense into them. :rofl :rolleyes:
-
It's looking good for me to be around tomorrow. Probably around 2:30-3 est or so. I will have to leave for around an hour at about 3:45 but should be back for a while after that. Do those times work for you Titan?
One other test I'd like to propose if I get spanked at all ranges is just a no constraints normal merge. You try to hit me on first pass I do my normal thing. I am curious about that.
Wiley.
-
:rofl alright gang, lets go find ourselves some HOers, we gotta beat some sense into them. :rofl :rolleyes:
Don't forget-channel 200, PMing and more HO player list threads. :D
-
It's looking good for me to be around tomorrow. Probably around 2:30-3 est or so. I will have to leave for around an hour at about 3:45 but should be back for a while after that. Do those times work for you Titan?
One other test I'd like to propose if I get spanked at all ranges is just a no constraints normal merge. You try to hit me on first pass I do my normal thing. I am curious about that.
Wiley.
Sure, anything you like. I'm curious too. I won't be on until 6PM est most likely, maybe 5, until 8:30 ish.
-
Ok lets aim for when you first get on. I will have to head out around 6:45 est again.
Wiley.
-
Ok lets aim for when you first get on. I will have to head out around 6:45 est again.
Wiley.
Alright, I'll PM when I'm on. I'm also on for a little at around 10:30AM-12. If you could do that instead.
-
I turn to avoid the ho and get shot in belly or cockpit so when I get hoed I ho back I still miss cause I'm no good at hoing.I realize hoing is frowned upon and I never start the ho or try to let them get in position to ho me in the first place.however isn't it a realistic form of ACM? Wasn't it used in WWII? PS.those that say hoing takes no skill are wrong..I have no skill and still can't ho worth a shot
-
HO= no skill, point plane and fire away....THAT is what causes the greatest amount (and rightly so, IMO) of angst. WHY don't so many folks want to get better at this game? Get an Lgay, point Lgay at red thingie, fire at 1k (regardless what red thingie does), until ammo done....get another Lgay. I see people in here who are just MIND-numbingly good at this game...I fail to understand why so many OTHERS don't even wish to try and get there....or at least in that area code
I can't understand it either, it's been my intention most of the time to try and better my form, learn from engagements and mistakes and overall not be a ho'in doouche. Here is what is kind of counter-intuitive to me, often times when a HO situation presents itself right in front of me and all of a sudden, it doesn't even cross my mind to pull the trigger there until after the opportunity is gone. This never happens to me on a snapshot, quite the opposite, prolly shoot excessively there. So, what I'm wondering is if there is an actual normal aversion toward wanting to fly straight at something that will shoot at you (yes I know it's a game, but instincts really do apply too,) where if there is, then ppl are actually overriding what their conscious thought tells them to do. Now that would be interesting...
-
I turn to avoid the ho and get shot in belly or cockpit so when I get hoed I ho back I still miss cause I'm no good at hoing.I realize hoing is frowned upon and I never start the ho or try to let them get in position to ho me in the first place.however isn't it a realistic form of ACM? Wasn't it used in WWII? PS.those that say hoing takes no skill are wrong..I have no skill and still can't ho worth a shot
Realistic? Sure? Fun? Not really. It's a video game, people striving for realism forget that it seems. There's the DCS series and Il-2 CoD if you want to spend 10 minutes on the ground prepping the engine and using real life tactics in perma death scenarios. In AH, you can re up, so why not take the challenge and fight the other guy without HOing him? Is it funner to have a 5 minute dogfight where you lose, or a 10 second merge where you just press the trigger? I would pick the former all day everyday.
I can't understand it either, it's been my intention most of the time to try and better my form, learn from engagements and mistakes and overall not be a ho'in doouche. Here is what is kind of counter-intuitive to me, often times when a HO situation presents itself right in front of me and all of a sudden, it doesn't even cross my mind to pull the trigger there until after the opportunity is gone. This never happens to me on a snapshot, quite the opposite, prolly shoot excessively there. So, what I'm wondering is if there is an actual normal aversion toward wanting to fly straight at something that will shoot at you (yes I know it's a game, but instincts really do apply too,) where if there is, then ppl are actually overriding what their conscious thought tells them to do. Now that would be interesting...
My input to this is that when a HO situation represents itself to me, I will hold my fire but be extremely cautious. I'm already thinking in a split second on my avoidance maneuver if need be, and within another split second determine whether or not I can HO him back and survive IF the other guy decides to fire.
-
I prefer a dog fight to a ho as well but it doesn't always work out that way cause it's rarely a1v1 I'm the MA
-
My input to this is that when a HO situation represents itself to me, I will hold my fire but be extremely cautious. I'm already thinking in a split second on my avoidance maneuver if need be, and within another split second determine whether or not I can HO him back and survive IF the other guy decides to fire.
Actually, sounds like fun. Always has (to me). :) :aok
-
Here's my take on HO's:
Always expect the HO in the MA. It could be the only chance a newer player (new players seem to be the most likely to HO) will have to get a kill or it might be someone who wants to quickly remove a threat in a multi-con engagement. It might also be someone in a "big cannon" bird that's simply leaning on their gunset. I'm sure there's a thousand other reasons to HO. I don't condone it but I do expect it and will occasionally HO myself (I can't believe people will go nose to nose with a 190-A8 carrying 2x20mm's, 2x30mm's.).
The HO is easy to avoid as long as you have E. There are several manouvers to avoid the HO while setting yourself up to turn the tables on your attacker. In the MA I'm able to avoid 90+% of HO attempts. On the other hand the HO is nearly impossible to avoid if you don't have E.
What constitutes a HO IMO is the "intent" of one or both combatants. If you're coming at each other and one trys to avoid the HO while the other takes the front quarter shot it's still a HO. The player fully intended to HO, did nothing to break it off and ended with a front quarter shot out of circumstance, not design. Of course in the MA legitimate non-HO frontal shots are often misconstrued as HOs.
In terms of chivalry the game isn't any different than it was in early AW despite the rose colored glasses many wear. The HO is, always was and always will be a part of the game. You either subscribe to it's effectiveness or not. Even if you don't it's likely still one of the many tools in your bag that has it's time and place.
My 2 cents.
BTW, I'd take a shot at DA HO avoidance.
-
:huh I'm losing brain cells. Nrshida, save me.
:rofl He's like the Duracell Bunny ain't he?
See? I've been keeping up with you all the time. :D :aok
Well in a fashion :lol
Yeah there's hasn't been much constructive discussion going on. Correct me if I'm wrong but you do seem a little 'set off' shall we say by players discussing other players activities. Sort of an anti-police police motif as best I can see.
Your standpoint seems to be that the HO is absolutely no problem, which you then attempted to demonstrate by getting repeatedly shredded like a niblick in the DA :lol
I should have thought a more constructive discussion, especially for you Arlo :P, would have been a technical one about how to avoid and then exploit the HO. Something which Titan and a few other skillful players have clearly mastered. One of these, a fairly quiet and mature young man, did take the time to sketch out the essentials on the second or third page I believe which watching your merge on YouTube I recommend you read, reread and then practice.
Unfortunately this 'discussion' took the standard 'I'm right', 'no I'm right' format. At this point taking the p!55 and mucking around is usually the most fun thing to do. Sorry about that but as I say I'm very bored right now, just had surgery and can't do much of anything including flying :cry
Sigh, what to do with myself now? Could try and fix the film viewer. Again...
-
:rofl He's like the Duracell Bunny ain't he?
Go be 'you' somewhere else Arlo
so this is where he went. :D
-
Correct me if I'm wrong but you do seem a little 'set off' shall we say by players discussing other players activities. Sort of an anti-police police motif as best I can see.
Your standpoint seems to be that the HO is absolutely no problem, which you then attempted to demonstrate by getting repeatedly shredded like a niblick in the DA :lol
I should have thought a more constructive discussion, especially for you Arlo :P, would have been a technical one about how to avoid and then exploit the HO. Something which Titan and a few other skillful players have clearly mastered. One of these, a fairly quiet and mature young man, did take the time to sketch out the essentials on the second or third page I believe which watching your merge on YouTube I recommend you read, reread and then practice.
Irony. :D
Side-slip at the right time (and yes, energy state matters) with the other player not expecting avoidance. Why Titan claims to know this but doesn't go into the details is a mystery to me, as well. :)
-
so this is where he went. :D
I'm always gonna be somewhere. Possibly somewhere you don't like. Tis such a mystery. :aok
-
My take on HOs is the same on deacking and CV killing. I don't like flying into bullets. :airplane:
-
I wonder what goes through a HOr's mind when they fail at it repeatedly by someone skilled enough to avoid it a the last second. I wonder if they think hmmm maybe I should be trying something else.
When they don't get HO'd by someone who easily could have, I wonder if they ever think to themselves, "hmmm I didn't know everybody doesn't HO," or "I wonder why he didn't HO me." Or anything to that sentiment.
-
I wouldn't let it keep me awake at night. :D
-
I wouldn't let it keep me awake at night. :D
That's why I'm tired all the time, :l
-
I wouldn't let it keep me awake at night. :D
So you made this thread instead :devil
-
Did we all agree on what a HO is yet? :D Is it when both have pipper on? Is it any face to face merge even if only one has or can get pipper on?
If not, what angle off makes it a non-HO? Even if we settled that, now you have to deal with finding an agreed upon list of exceptions:
None?
Outnumbered?
Damaged?
Inferior plane?
Taking a field?
Saving a field?
Other guy is a dork?
He shot first?
Shouldn't have flown right at my cannon bird?
HOing seems the same to me as it was years ago when I first had an account. It would be nice if it were less, but depending on the definition and circumstances, almost everyone does at least once in awhile, me included. I like it when you find someone that will merge guns cold HO because it usually means its gonna be a fight. Getting HOed is like ack. Its always a part of the game, hard to predict, but you can avoid it most of the time. Sometimes its worth flying into the ack and sometimes it worth giving an opponent a HO opportunity he might take.
-
Hoing is bad, so normally ill try to avoid this kind of dyck move.
Except if you really want it - then youll get what youre going for, and can cry a river about what a hypocrite i am.
Come at me, ho-tards.
-
I don't HO.
If I see that you have done everything you can and you want to HO, and you do with guns firing, the fights over. I simply fly away and find a different fight.
-
As far as I'm concerned, at the end of the day I have one simple rule:
Bombers excepted, do not expect to survive flying into your enemy's gunnery path.
If he has guns on you, you have messed up. Whether he is in front of you, behind you, above, or below. The notion that you should be home free because the two of you happen to be nose on is monumentally stupid.
All the rest of it is hot air.
Wiley.
-
So you made this thread instead :devil
Twas a waste of time, I admit. Ho-whiners/arena police just have that ingrained as a permanent part of their personality. Not I nor anyone can talk them down off the edge. :D
-
Since there are experimental fights happening perhaps everyone in game should only HO .... no ACM allowed .... perhaps then we could work out which game we like better... pass this on to the mains....and lets get this little experiment underway. :devil
I can just hear it now.......man!! you moved... cheat..haxxor hahahha
-
a Ho is exactly what it represents A Head on attack.....
a HOtard is someone who has NO ACM and just goes for the HO every time.....or someone who HOs someone after they did not use their gun solution.....
if I am fighting someone in the MA and I get around faster and have guns but they do NOT I will fire..... it is NOT a HO if they do not have guns.....
if they did have guns first but did NOT fire because of a front shot....and I fire when I get guns..then I am a HO tard......but if I see someone that had guns in a front shot and didn't fire I would not fire...they obviously want a good fight instead of a kill.
if I get around and they would never get a gun solution then fire away.....thats a crossing shot.....
I will never call someone a HOtard if they are in say a 110 or other non turny bird that has big cannons the HO then is their best tactic....
when I am in a 262 I accept all HO's....... come at me face first with those cannons...... :t
it dont bother me when someone does get the kill on my 262 in a HO I have around 2000 perks so it all good :D
-
:old:
Thy BFM Dweeb, in all his muster. Prefect moves out of skill sets, nay. Learn new skills too add to thy skill sets, nay.
Seek ways of the warrior, he shall, his method shall be lost in thy search.
One method does thy newst of new know and this one method he has perfected, this method lost it is not.
This method is a natural skill set to thy newst warrior which need be taught, nay.
For thou only need attention too thy instincts.
Turn towards thou enemy, face to face, thou wretched Head On Dweeb for thou know nothing else.
Riding on thy steeds' of choice thy shall.
Thy country shall matter, nay for this wretched foul is within the minds of all.
Blessed thou will be if shown thy ways of the "Old Warrior" thy pia matter be used.
BFM is thy holy grail, ACM is lost forever without BFM.
Edit:
I wanna DA everyone in this thread... Now I didn't say I was going too beat down anyone.... But I did say your all sissys and you should come HO me in the DA! :neener: :lol :neener: :salute
Second Edit:
hiGh Arlo "King of Trolls" :salute
Third Edit:
Ink... Your fist my face you fakin sissy man of men! :neener: :salute
-
:old:
Thy BFM Dweeb, in all his muster. Prefect moves out of skill sets, nay. Learn new skills too add to thy skill sets, nay.
Seek ways of the warrior, he shall, his method shall be lost in thy search.
One method does thy newst of new know and this one method he has perfected, this method lost it is not.
This method is a natural skill set to thy newst warrior which need be taught, nay.
For thou only need attention too thy instincts.
Turn towards thou enemy, face to face, thou wretched Head On Dweeb for thou know nothing else.
Riding on thy steeds' of choice thy shall.
Thy country shall matter, nay for this wretched foul is within the minds of all.
Blessed thou will be if shown thy ways of the "Old Warrior" thy pia matter be used.
BFM is thy holy grail, ACM is lost forever without BFM.
Edit:
I wanna DA everyone in this thread... Now I didn't say I was going too beat down anyone.... But I did say your all sissys and you should come HO me in the DA! :neener: :lol :neener: :salute
Second Edit:
hiGh Arlo "King of Trolls" :salute
Third Edit:
Ink... Your fist my face you fakin sissy man of men! :neener: :salute
What in the hell is this babbling boolsheet??? Lol.
IN (DA)
-
:rofl
dead just read the edit....... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok :salute
-
IN (DA)
Sweet! :salute
-
Edit:
I wanna DA everyone in this thread... Now I didn't say I was going too beat down anyone.... But I did say your all sissys and you should come HO me in the DA! :neener: :lol :neener: :salute
Second Edit:
hiGh Arlo "King of Trolls" :salute
Third Edit:
Ink... Your fist my face you fakin sissy man of men! :neener: :salute
(http://imageshack.us/a/img844/2619/xu2w.png)
-
I'm so confused :headscratch: :bhead
-
:rofl
dead just read the edit....... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok :salute
:salute :cheers:
-
(http://imageshack.us/a/img844/2619/xu2w.png)
:rofl
Luv it sir!
Edit:
DA?
Second Edit:
Say yes!
-
I'm so confused :headscratch: :bhead
Just say YES to the DA sir! :salute
-
Just say YES to the DA sir! :salute
YES...Lol :salute
-
Had some tests with Wiley and some regular duels too in P47D11s. Lots of fun :cheers:. Like dedalos said, HOing gives you an (small) advantage even if you don't damage the other guy, you still force him to turn early. At 1K, it was more or less 50/50 on getting hit with the moves Wiley was using to avoid the HO. Be glad that most people in the MA can't exploit the advantage they get from HOing and that most of them are poor shots. :aok
Either way, it was fun test this out and we had fun dueling each other afterwards. :cheers: So, the best manuever to avoiding a HO seems to be a diving left or right turn for those who haven't found it out yet, and in an MA environment, a simple extend will negate the advantage the other guy gained from HOing. I on the other hand will stick to duking it out with the HOer. ;) :airplane: Hopes this helps settle the debate.
-
It was definitely much fun. So much fun we forgot to record most of it. :lol :cheers:
From my end, to get out of his way starting at 1k, it took a pretty violent break. However, from further back it got a lot easier. He was having trouble hitting me on the way in when I'd do my normal merge that I use when someone's trying to shoot me on the way in, although it was giving him an edge to exploit. Honestly I'm not that great of a duelist so I'm not entirely sure if I could tweak what I do to even that turn up. I have trouble with guys that pull hard on the merge at the best of times, I either bleed too much E getting around quick or I keep too much and give them my six more often than not.
In any case, if I had to draw any conclusions from it, I'd say the HO is very avoidable, I don't really have the analytical capability to judge how much of an advantage it gives the HOer. I'm definitely not going to change the general idea of what I do on a merge as it seemed to work pretty well against Titan, and his gunnery impressed me when we were dueling.
<S>
I've got film of one of the successful avoidances if anyone's interested.
Wiley.
-
if you see the guy coming the HO is easy to avoid.....at 1K ....it "may" be a bit more difficult.
-
if you see the guy coming the HO is easy to avoid.....at 1K ....it "may" be a bit more difficult.
I had to maneuver pretty violently, but I was able to do it. E state makes a huge difference too. Near stall, you're probably hooped. Like I've said before, if you're TnBing and someone's bouncing you, it's more the fault of the multi on one than the HO. IMO he's actually giving you a gift if he's bouncing you and you can get guns on.
Wiley.
-
I had to maneuver pretty violently, but I was able to do it. E state makes a huge difference too. Near stall, you're probably hooped. Like I've said before, if you're TnBing and someone's bouncing you, it's more the fault of the multi on one than the HO. IMO he's actually giving you a gift if he's bouncing you and you can get guns on.
Wiley.
ya I can see needing more umph when trying to avoid from 1k.....but in MA if someone gets within 1K before you see them...... your SA failed.... :huh
-
.....but in MA if someone gets within 1K before you see them...... your SA failed.... :huh
And it's probably not a HO attack unless .... for some reason .... eyes were closed tight, someone fell out of a chair, etc. :)
-
I don't really have the analytical capability to judge how much of an advantage it gives the HOer.
If done correctly it takes the HOer's advantage away. The HOer HAS to remain guns on to take his shot, therefore allowing you to predict his route and E state while managing your own. It's realtively easy to immediately end up directly on a HOer's six in the MA after the first pass even if he's trying to fly straight through.
-
My reasons for HOing(I seem to be doing it alot more)
1. Remove a threat as fast as possible in a massive fight when odds are against me
2. I feel lazy and the A8 has alot of 20mm rounds :D
3. Because I'm about to die(engine about to keel or PW)
4. Cause sometimes I just don't give a damn how it ends
5. A kill is a kill. If he's dead and I'm fine, screw what they think they know.
I don't know how many times i've killed someone HOing, then they call me out. I to the DA.
When we get there I just scissors them into the ground cause alot of them don't know how to, or just plain suck.
Ink is the bane to my existance tho :old:
-
Did we all agree on what a HO is yet?
Ive always been ok with the real life definition. Which is why I've never been an adherent to the "it takes two to HO" philosophy.
-
My reasons for HOing(I seem to be doing it alot more)
1. Remove a threat as fast as possible in a massive fight when odds are against me
2. I feel lazy and the A8 has alot of 20mm rounds :D
3. Because I'm about to die(engine about to keel or PW)
4. Cause sometimes I just don't give a damn how it ends
5. A kill is a kill. If he's dead and I'm fine, screw what they think they know.
I don't know how many times i've killed someone HOing, then they call me out. I to the DA.
When we get there I just scissors them into the ground cause alot of them don't know how to, or just plain suck.
Ink is the bane to my existance tho :old:
:D
:salute
-
If done correctly it takes the HOer's advantage away. The HOer HAS to remain guns on to take his shot, therefore allowing you to predict his route and E state while managing your own. It's realtively easy to immediately end up directly on a HOer's six in the MA after the first pass even if he's trying to fly straight through.
do you mind showing bighorn how to do it right? He was only atbthe peak of his game when we tried it lol. Also, please explain how someone holding the trigger down gives you an idea of his estate or where he is going? I would think that you avoiding shows him where you are going no?
We spent a good hour hoing each other in the da and had removed the skill factor since I was fighting someone better than me.
As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.
But hey, we can all have good SA. Just start at 20K with a friend and make single passes on lower cons. Extend a sector rince and repeat. It would make for a fun game and great scores.
How can anyone claiming to look for a fight endorse sa and ho shots is beyond me lol
-
do you mind showing bighorn how to do it right? He was only atbthe peak of his game when we tried it lol. Also, please explain how someone holding the trigger down gives you an idea of his estate or where he is going? I would think that you avoiding shows him where you are going no?
We spent a good hour hoing each other in the da and had removed the skill factor since I was fighting someone better than me.
As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.
But hey, we can all have good SA. Just start at 20K with a friend and make single passes on lower cons. Extend a sector rince and repeat. It would make for a fun game and great scores.
How can anyone claiming to look for a fight endorse sa and ho shots is beyond me lol
+1
-
do you mind showing bighorn how to do it right? He was only atbthe peak of his game when we tried it lol. Also, please explain how someone holding the trigger down gives you an idea of his estate or where he is going? I would think that you avoiding shows him where you are going no?
We spent a good hour hoing each other in the da and had removed the skill factor since I was fighting someone better than me.
As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.
But hey, we can all have good SA. Just start at 20K with a friend and make single passes on lower cons. Extend a sector rince and repeat. It would make for a fun game and great scores.
How can anyone claiming to look for a fight endorse sa and ho shots is beyond me lol
SA argument? Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?
Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels. I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.
In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on. He'll lose E while I gain E to a point. Also I'm disapearing under his nose. I have vis on him, he doesn't on me. In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn. I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.
Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.
-
SA argument? Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?
Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels. I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.
In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on. He'll lose E while I gain E to a point. Also I'm disapearing under his nose. I have vis on him, he doesn't on me. In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn. I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.
Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.
Bald,
After re-reading the posts...I don't think Ded's endorsement comment was for you and clearly he knows how to avoid it.
-
SA argument? Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?
Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels. I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.
In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on. He'll lose E while I gain E to a point. Also I'm disapearing under his nose. I have vis on him, he doesn't on me. In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn. I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.
Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.
Yeah, started quoting you and responded to several other posts at the same time. Why am I not surprised that when the argument is lost people resort to the "if you cant defeat it", "can't see it coming" rhetoric :lol
I think you are making too many assumptions up there or you are just using the situation that fits your argument. Anything done wrong by your opponent will give you an advantage. A HO attempt done wrong will also give you an advantage. I am talking about when it is done right by someone that can actually fight after the HO shot.
Think of it this way. I like to turn right at the merge and most of the time I will win (maybe not now but for the argument lets pretend that I can still fight lol). Would it be accurate for me to come here and argue that a right turn always wins the fight? Is it the right turn that got me the kill or is it what I and the bad guy did after that? Same for the HO. It is not the action of pulling the trigger that gave you the win but what you and the HOer did after and prior to that.
As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out. No one addresses that situation. You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.
Another interesting thing you wrote is that while you can push your nose down to avoid you will gain E. However, if the bad guy pushes the nose down to keep guns on he will lose E? :headscratch:
-
As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out. No one addresses that situation. You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.
Another interesting thing you wrote is that while you can push your nose down to avoid you will gain E. However, if the bad guy pushes the nose down to keep guns on he will lose E? :headscratch:
See my earlier post where I said it was nearly impossible to avoid the HO low on E. I also said in that post there were several manouvers that can defeat the HO. I've simply used the diving evasive in reponse to Wiley's test in the DA.
I gain the E advantage because I gave up a little early to make the break but as I pass under the guys nose he has to keep pushing the stick. Do you agree that a neg G move bleeds E? If I don't have to keep pushing neg G's and the other guy does it's pretty easy to see where I gain the advantage even though we're both nose down.
Also in my earlier post I think I said I control E not nessesarily gain which I may not want to do if I want to get around as fast as possible.
-
So that was you who had that thread. Will have to exercise my search fu.
As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out. No one addresses that situation. You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.
What would you do if the same thing happened, and he was on your dead six? The answer is pretty much the same. Get shot. Getting hit low E while being ganged has very little to do with the angle you're being attacked from. I still say it's a gift if the gangdweeb comes in from the front giving you a firing solution.
Wiley.
-
So that was you who had that thread. Will have to exercise my search fu.
What would you do if the same thing happened, and he was on your dead six?
Exactly, not always avoidable or easy to avoid or sa related. That is all I am trying to get across.
-
I gain the E advantage because I gave up a little early to make the break but as I pass under the guys nose he has to keep pushing the stick. Do you agree that a neg G move bleeds E? If I don't have to keep pushing neg G's and the other guy does it's pretty easy to see where I gain the advantage even though we're both nose down.
Also in my earlier post I think I said I control E not nessesarily gain which I may not want to do if I want to get around as fast as possible.
You are making big assumptions Eagl. Why do you assume the bad guy has to do it the wrong way? If you push a little I only have to push a little also right? You assume that I would have a bad angle to begin with? What if I have a good angle and I have to push less than you? In any case, read bighorns post on how to do it right.
In any engagement you have to assume the other guy will not make a mistake. You have to rely on your self and not on the other guy. Sure if someone did what you described you will have an advantage maybe but that would be an indication of his skill level and not a result of pulling the trigger. What if instead he just sends some tracers your way, cuts throttle a bit and waits for your move? Do you think flying under someones nose is impossible to follow?
Even a new guy in a fast plane will be able to HO extend rinse and repeat. He has the advantage in that situation since at best you can only escape with no damage.
-
Exactly, not always avoidable or easy to avoid or sa related. That is all I am trying to get across.
In my experience, low E and being ganged, giving the guy your front is essentially the same as giving him your tail. You're a non moving target for him to pop. The few times I've had success when I was avoiding the third or fourth man in when I was low E, I put him straight off my 3 or 9 o'clock and yanked back as hard as I could.
To me, the situation you're describing is somewhat SA related. I do understand and agree with what you're saying, sometimes you wind up in a situation where getting shot is nearly unavoidable. When you did what you did to get there was the beginning of you getting killed though. When you made the decision to get slow when there are multiple bandits in icon range means to me you committed to getting picked at that point.
Edit: Found one of the old threads where Dedalos got somewhat specific:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,248894.msg3059946/topicseen.html#msg3059946 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,248894.msg3059946/topicseen.html#msg3059946)
I know some people like to get into the middle of the red guys and take on all comers. It's just that to me, at that point you're forfeiting all legitimate right to complain about being picked or ganged. You put yourself there, how it's going to end is inevitable.
Wiley.
-
In my experience, low E and being ganged, giving the guy your front is essentially the same as giving him your tail. You're a non moving target for him to pop. The few times I've had success when I was avoiding the third or fourth man in when I was low E, I put him straight off my 3 or 9 o'clock and yanked back as hard as I could.
This is an argument about the HOer getting an advantage, not about how easy it is to avoid, how you got there etc. Although, it sounds like I maybe clueless because I cant figure out how to manage the third guy coming in at light speed when I already have to worry about cutting the angles of the guys trying to get on my 6. In any case, in that scenario, the HOer has the advantage, no?
To me, the situation you're describing is somewhat SA related. I do understand and agree with what you're saying, sometimes you wind up in a situation where getting shot is nearly unavoidable. When you did what you did to get there was the beginning of you getting killed though. When you made the decision to get slow when there are multiple bandits in icon range means to me you committed to getting picked at that point.
Again, the argument is about the HOer getting an advantage.
I know some people like to get into the middle of the red guys and take on all comers. It's just that to me, at that point you're forfeiting all legitimate right to complain about being picked or ganged. You put yourself there, how it's going to end is inevitable.
Wiley.
And again, it is an argument about getting an advantage from a HO shot. Not a complain. However, since I like the fighting part of the game, I don;t like it when people go around explaining that it takes 2 to HO, they are easy to avoid, the hoer will be at a disadvantage etc.
-
This is an argument about the HOer getting an advantage, not about how easy it is to avoid, how you got there etc. Although, it sounds like I maybe clueless because I cant figure out how to manage the third guy coming in at light speed when I already have to worry about cutting the angles of the guys trying to get on my 6. In any case, in that scenario, the HOer has the advantage, no?
Again, the argument is about the HOer getting an advantage.
And again, it is an argument about getting an advantage from a HO shot. Not a complain. However, since I like the fighting part of the game, I don;t like it when people go around explaining that it takes 2 to HO, they are easy to avoid, the hoer will be at a disadvantage etc.
Actually, if the argument is now about getting an advantage (post pass) from a HO shot then it has changed. Originally this argument was very much about avoidance of head-ons, ease of such, tactics used and so forth. As things progressed, someone mentioned whether the HOer or the HOee is more likely to be at an advantage if no hits connected. This appears to be your vantage-point in the discussion , presently. And it's not a ridiculous tangent, by any means. But if you're recognizing that you and Wiley are talking about different things, it's not because the argument was never about what Wiley is talking about.
:salute Just saying ....
Never-the-less ... both arguments on this subject are quite interesting. :)
-
As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.
Dedalos, this was your first comment in the thread. All I'm saying is at that point, the HO is the least of your worries at that point because you're under 3 or 4 planes. Whether the HO gives the third guy in an advantage stacked on top of the totality of advantages he already has in this situation is irrelevant.
I take it from your posts you believe he shouldn't HO you in this situation, because HO's are bad and you should be home free because your nose happens to be pointed at him when he gets in gun range?
Wiley.
-
Dedalos, this was your first comment in the thread. All I'm saying is at that point, the HO is the least of your worries at that point because you're under 3 or 4 planes. Whether the HO gives the third guy in an advantage stacked on top of the totality of advantages he already has in this situation is irrelevant.
No worries at all. Most of them will not make it back to base anyway. My issue is with garbage statements like: "It takes 2 to HO", "Easy to avoid", "Hoer will die easily", "Bad SA" etc,
I take it from your posts you believe he shouldn't HO you in this situation, because HO's are bad and you should be home free because your nose happens to be pointed at him when he gets in gun range?
Wiley.
Look above response. What he does is his business but I can list a few reasons on why doing that is a stupid move. Do you think it is a good idea to put your face in front of my guns in that situation? He can get a better angle and take me out with out any danger to himself, no? So yeah, HO in that situation is the dumbest thing he could do.
-
You are making big assumptions Eagl. Why do you assume the bad guy has to do it the wrong way? If you push a little I only have to push a little also right? You assume that I would have a bad angle to begin with? What if I have a good angle and I have to push less than you? In any case, read bighorns post on how to do it right.
In any engagement you have to assume the other guy will not make a mistake. You have to rely on your self and not on the other guy. Sure if someone did what you described you will have an advantage maybe but that would be an indication of his skill level and not a result of pulling the trigger. What if instead he just sends some tracers your way, cuts throttle a bit and waits for your move? Do you think flying under someones nose is impossible to follow?
Even a new guy in a fast plane will be able to HO extend rinse and repeat. He has the advantage in that situation since at best you can only escape with no damage.
OK. I give up. Since it's impossible to detail every possible HO merge scenario in a single thread it must be impossible to beat the HO, therefor I shall stop doing so and HO everyone I see. Thank you for clarifying.
-
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt on 1st merge. If they ho then game on. I'll shoot them dead in the face 1st chance I get. Especially if (and it usually is) a Spitfire. It seems like 95% of the spits I fight always flat turn right into my nose even though they have the ability to outturn me with ease. I get tired of it and just blast em' back to the tower. Next spitfire please.
-
Look above response. What he does is his business but I can list a few reasons on why doing that is a stupid move. Do you think it is a good idea to put your face in front of my guns in that situation? He can get a better angle and take me out with out any danger to himself, no? So yeah, HO in that situation is the dumbest thing he could do.
Completely and wholeheartedly agreed. The only thing I think the guy coming in could do worse from that position would be to not take the shot.
All my point has ever been in this thread is that if you're not in a situation that already has put you behind the 8 ball, the HO is easy to avoid. If you're in a spot where it's not, you've got far bigger problems than the faceshooting.
Regardless of your two planes' relative orientation, if you're in his gunsight you've messed up in some fashion. The idea that just because you're head on he shouldn't take the shot is just silly.
The tricky part with testing for how much of an edge it gives the other guy avoiding the HO is, there are so many variables in a fight, it's really rare and difficult to find two guys that are exactly equally matched on any given day. If I were able to clone myself and fight myself on a good day when the clone was having an off day, the clone would never win a fight. Same thing with two different guys who are supposedly 'evenly matched'.
Titan and I were somewhat back and forth in our duels, but I don't think the HO had a whole lot to do with who won. He's somewhat better than I am in a 1v1, I'd say.
Wiley.
-
OK. I give up. Since it's impossible to detail every possible HO merge scenario in a single thread it must be impossible to beat the HO, therefor I shall stop doing so and HO everyone I see. Thank you for clarifying.
What ever you do, do not admit you are wrong :rofl Just detail the best case scenario. If the HO is done wrong you will win, no one is arguing that. If done right, it gives a small advantage to the HOer. You may still beat him since you can make up for that advantage with skill and experience. Avoid it the way you described against a skilled player and you are in a major disadvantage.
My point has been that just because someone pulls the trigger it does not make him an easy. Not always easy to avoid. It does not take two. It is the dumbest move you could pull unless you are facing certain death. And don't confuse your ability to win a fight with the fact that someone pulled the trigger HO.
-
Completely and wholeheartedly agreed. The only thing I think the guy coming in could do worse from that position would be to not take the shot.
Very true. And we should be teaching new guys not to put them selves in that situation by telling them that it is a valid tactic, blame the other guys SA, etc. It should be a last resort act.
All my point has ever been in this thread is that if you're not in a situation that already has put you behind the 8 ball, the HO is easy to avoid. If you're in a spot where it's not, you've got far bigger problems than the faceshooting.
I see it as enjoin a fight. Someone coming in for a 50/50 3 second shot is just annoying and adds nothing to the game experience. Ends the fight and takes the kill away from someone that put some effort in it.
Regardless of your two planes' relative orientation, if you're in his gunsight you've messed up in some fashion. The idea that just because you're head on he shouldn't take the shot is just silly.
By all means, if you get there take the shot. Just don;t try to get there. Don;t make your opening move a 50/50 chance especially when you have the advantage of the bad guy being bz with someone else.
The tricky part with testing for how much of an edge it gives the other guy avoiding the HO is, there are so many variables in a fight, it's really rare and difficult to find two guys that are exactly equally matched on any given day. If I were able to clone myself and fight myself on a good day when the clone was having an off day, the clone would never win a fight. Same thing with two different guys who are supposedly 'evenly matched'.
Titan and I were somewhat back and forth in our duels, but I don't think the HO had a whole lot to do with who won. He's somewhat better than I am in a 1v1, I'd say.
Wiley.
True, and it may be different with different people testing. What we saw was a small position advantage. Would it be bigger if it was against a less skilled player? I think so. I also draw from my experience. I can get pretty good position when I am in a 110 by just pointing the plane towards people. They jump put of the way at 1K out and I can just follow them. Did they avoid a potential HO shot? yes. Am I on their six? yep
-
I do the same thing Nd they wine about how I out turned thier spits and 51s :joystick: :rofl
-
What ever you do, do not admit you are wrong :rofl Just detail the best case scenario. If the HO is done wrong you will win, no one is arguing that. If done right, it gives a small advantage to the HOer. You may still beat him since you can make up for that advantage with skill and experience. Avoid it the way you described against a skilled player and you are in a major disadvantage.
My point has been that just because someone pulls the trigger it does not make him an easy. Not always easy to avoid. It does not take two. It is the dumbest move you could pull unless you are facing certain death. And don't confuse your ability to win a fight with the fact that someone pulled the trigger HO.
You are absolutely correct and I was totally wrong. It is impossible to avoid the HO therefore I shall no longer try but simply fly forward guns on.
Was that more to your liking?
-
You are absolutely correct and I was totally wrong. It is impossible to avoid the HO therefore I shall no longer try but simply fly forward guns on.
Was that more to your liking?
:rofl :bhead
-
After being the recipient of many a HO, like all of us, and not in the good way, that there is a tactical Energy related way to exploit and gain advantage from HO'ing. Wiley and Titan, from your experiments, it would seem that if one is able to get the surprise on the poor guy to be HO'd, say 1.5k or less then said poor guy will have to react violently thus causing major losses in Energy state, positioning and probably SA too. At least that is what I have gathered, as it seems there are some that can HO at you and still win the reversal and onto your 6.
-
After being the recipient of many a HO, like all of us, and not in the good way, that there is a tactical Energy related way to exploit and gain advantage from HO'ing. Wiley and Titan, from your experiments, it would seem that if one is able to get the surprise on the poor guy to be HO'd, say 1.5k or less then said poor guy will have to react violently thus causing major losses in Energy state, positioning and probably SA too. At least that is what I have gathered, as it seems there are some that can HO at you and still win the reversal and onto your 6.
I still feel a lot of people in this thread have tunnel vision (heh) when it comes to the HO.
If you notice someone bouncing you 1.5k out on your dead six, you're going to have to react as violently as on a HO or possibly even more violently because the closure rate is less. If he's not coming in at ludicrous speed, I'd personally rather have a guy merging front quarter than rear quarter.
From the sides, you don't really have to pull that hard in many situations to avoid the bounce.
Wiley.
-
Earlier this morning .....
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/7782/fvn8.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img542/611/wx69.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img713/7448/98fs.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/5822/glpu.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img827/9545/vpye.png)
-
What I've learned is:
HOing can help you get position if you're able to think that far in advance. I say that because most HOers can't think, much less, think in advance.
-
That isn't bad right there.... for a Buckeye :aok
What I've learned is:
HOing can help you get position if you're able to think that far in advance. I say that because most HOers can't think, much less, think in advance.
-
Earlier this morning .....
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/7782/fvn8.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img542/611/wx69.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img713/7448/98fs.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/5822/glpu.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img827/9545/vpye.png)
Arlo, you're still vulnerable in that first and especially the second picture. What I suggest you work on is,... oh no wait it's Arlo. Carry on bud you're avoiding it perfectly! :banana:
-
Arlo, you're still vulnerable in that first and especially the second picture. What I suggest you work on is,... oh no wait it's Arlo. Carry on bud you're avoiding it perfectly! :banana:
No, speak your mind as if I've never done this before. That way you won't look desperate for attention without anything relevant to add. :D
-
No, speak your mind as if I've never done this before. That way you won't look desperate for attention without anything relevant to add. :D
Nah, more fun knowing you DO have a problem with HOes after all :rofl
-
Nah, more fun knowing you DO have a problem with HOes after all :rofl
Well, I've never been one to spoil the simple pleasures of the simple-minded. ;) Carry on and good luck.
-
Well, I've never been one to spoil the simple pleasures of the simple-minded. ;) Carry on and good luck.
Ah Insults. The last refuge of the out-argued, except in this case you out-argued yourself. What a surprise. :rofl
-
First off Arlo... is not......flying a corsair.......What is happening here.. :uhoh
Second @nrshida If he didn't get hit I think it counts. Thats like saying well you know you suck at flying because one time I COULD have shot you down but didn't.
-
First off Arlo... is not......flying a corsair.......What is happening here.. :uhoh
Second @nrshida If he didn't get hit I think it counts. Thats like saying well you know you suck at flying because one time I COULD have shot you down but didn't.
Shida was explaining the finer points of how HOers can gain position during the HO-merge. Shida was explaining how he noticed that the pictures indicated that due to the HO-merge avoidance move, the hurricane was still vulnerable. What difference does it make if you avoid the HO only to die seconds later to the same pilot because you pushed a bad position while avoiding the HO?
-
Shida was explaining the finer points of how HOers can gain position during the HO-merge. Shida was explaining how he noticed that the pictures indicated that due to the HO-merge avoidance move, the hurricane was still vulnerable. What difference does it make if you avoid the HO only to die seconds later to the same pilot because you pushed a bad position while avoiding the HO?
I actually think its the other way around. When someone goes for a HO I wait for them to start shooting then break downwards than loop back up. If they turn I can come up and over and inside. If they go vertical I will be under them so my loop will be lower than their loop allowing me to get into a guns position.
-
I actually think its the other way around. When someone goes for a HO I wait for them to start shooting then break downwards than loop back up. If they turn I can come up and over and inside. If they go vertical I will be under them so my loop will be lower than their loop allowing me to get into a guns position.
What you are describing is not impossible. It could happen under specific conditions. However, most of the time it will not happen the way you describe. Here is why:
You wait until they fire and then make a move? If their aim was good you will take a face full of led since you cannot react faster than bullets. What if they open up up at d800 or less?
if they turn you will somehow come up and under and be inside them. Sure it could happen but it will depend on speed, plane types and pilot skills. So I don;t understand how you are 100% sure it will happen that way.
If they go vertical you will end up under them. That is true but how can you be sure you will be at guns range or that you will have the e to avoid stalling first?
I think you guys confuse lack of skill from the bad guy and maybe same luck on your part with the act of pulling the trigger. Think of it this way. Had he not pulled the trigger would you still have won the engagement? If the answer is yes then what you are saying is that you will win every head on merge with a simple move of pushing your nose down (is it really that easy? lol). However, it is also a head on merge for the other guy so why is he not going to win? Do you think you gained an advantage only because he send some led your way?
-
Yeah like Dedalos said about skill being a variable. The Bf109K-4 stick in Arlo's pictures couldn't hit a barn door if he was in said barn with the doors locked. That was a gift of a shot to a HOer, you are asking for it merging like that.
"Give your opponent a guns solution - get shot" - said someone wise hereabouts once.
-
What you are describing is not impossible. It could happen under specific conditions. However, most of the time it will not happen the way you describe. Here is why:
You wait until they fire and then make a move? If their aim was good you will take a face full of led since you cannot react faster than bullets. What if they open up up at d800 or less?
if they turn you will somehow come up and under and be inside them. Sure it could happen but it will depend on speed, plane types and pilot skills. So I don;t understand how you are 100% sure it will happen that way.
If they go vertical you will end up under them. That is true but how can you be sure you will be at guns range or that you will have the e to avoid stalling first?
I think you guys confuse lack of skill from the bad guy and maybe same luck on your part with the act of pulling the trigger. Think of it this way. Had he not pulled the trigger would you still have won the engagement? If the answer is yes then what you are saying is that you will win every head on merge with a simple move of pushing your nose down (is it really that easy? lol). However, it is also a head on merge for the other guy so why is he not going to win? Do you think you gained an advantage only because he send some led your way?
First off its rather easy to figure out when someone will start firing. Meaning i don't start to change path until around 800 out. I don't wait for them to start firing, I wait for them to get in range TO fire is what I mean. And if they turn and im not slow and can pull a lot of G's in a high loop and break into them from ONTOP not from the bottom.
-
1. Players that HO all the time don't know diddly, right?
2. Players that know diddly don't HO all the time, just when they're in the mood, right?
3. Players who aren't concerned about HO attacks are as bad or worse than the HOers, right?
The 109 driver sees the Hurri and drives in for the HO kill
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/6071/ibcx.png)
The Hurri slips to the side and drops a bit
(http://imageshack.us/a/img826/8861/xocu.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img560/8704/umh0.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/843/i3nz.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img199/9238/c7o.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img32/3843/a7w.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/2613/tu75.png)
2nd attempt .... 1 minute later
(http://imageshack.us/a/img836/6527/h3vn.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img829/2685/qbs.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img534/9621/cjpy.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img94/5167/stz7.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img42/471/9t5.png)
3rd attempt .... 30 seconds later ... though not so much a HO this time, just another miss and run.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img838/9194/l8hw.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img16/9492/qmrj.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/9948/7b4g.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img694/6268/z256.png)
The game is flat out ruined now that so many HO. Wait .... HOs aren't new nor are the frequency.
Meh ... burn them anyway! :D
-
funny thread full of lots of interesting stuff. ;)
I did want to say that I almost never get ho'd. Avoid a ho starts early, but I never fly straight at a bogy inside 1.5K.
I did learn when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless> in what I call MA duels, when I would attempt and merge, as one does in a duel, with head on pass, he would always ho me, Then brag about killing me. So I started breaking our of the merge to avoid the ho, but this was giving him a huge advanage in ACM as his first turn easily put him on my six o'clock. then he would beat me in his Spit8 and brag about that. I lost nearly every fight. Then frustrated by what I felt were his dishonerable tactics of hoing on the first merge. I decided to fight back and do the same. I killed him on successive ho's, and started forcing him to break first. Since my change in tactics (only when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>) the record now stands at 11 to 2 in favor of...well...not <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>.
It's relevant to this discussion because there is a dog fighters code of conduct that says if your looking for a fun, fair, good, dog fight you merge guns cold. Those that live by that code can get sucked into a head on merge, thinking they are engaging another who lives by the same code. It's a great dissapointment to find out the other pilot has no code and he took advantage of yours. Hence the ho whining. I've stopped whining about ho's a long time ago because I never assume any pilots flies by the code anymore unless I know who the pilot is. So I rarely line up for merge, and instead begin positioning my plane 3K out.
That said, I know not to look for a fair merge with 4 cannon brick that can't turn. Because to that plane, there is nothing fair about starting on equal terms against a plane that turns twice as good. I'f I'm in a 410 and you line up for head on merge in your Zeke....I have no choice but to Ho you. I can't survive any other scenario. Sorry. And for all you Spit, N1ki, hurry, Zeke, Spit jocks out there that complain about getting ho'd by Fw-190s, T-bolts, B-25s, and other assorted Bricks-of-the-Air, you're really just trying to use the code to guilt someone into giving you an easy kill.
Head on merges are for equal planes with equal E states, flown by pilots who live by the code. Otherwise they should be avoided, because they end up being unfair to someone, and the only way to even the odds is firing on the merge.
Happy flying :salute
-
It's been an interesting thread for me as well. It's made me think about a couple things when it comes to dueling. It occurred to me last night when I'm having an actual, according to Hoyle guns cold duel, I still use the same merge... Might explain part of my suckage on the merge. ;)
The other thing I've been thinking about is I rarely get hit on the way into another aircraft. I also do alright after we're engaged most of the time. What I'm thinking may be at play there is in the MA I very often am coming in on the guy with smash, often with alt as well. That might explain why I have good results against the average rank and file guys that I'm fighting, because I have the E to play with that helps me overcome the angles advantage he gets from the HO.
Not quite sure what to make of it, but it's food for thought. Now my game's gonna slip because I'm going to start overthinking... :lol
Wiley.
-
funny thread full of lots of interesting stuff. ;)
I did want to say that I almost never get ho'd. Avoid a ho starts early, but I never fly straight at a bogy inside 1.5K.
I did learn when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless> in what I call MA duels, when I would attempt and merge, as one does in a duel, with head on pass, he would always ho me, Then brag about killing me. So I started breaking our of the merge to avoid the ho, but this was giving him a huge advanage in ACM as his first turn easily put him on my six o'clock. then he would beat me in his Spit8 and brag about that. I lost nearly every fight. Then frustrated by what I felt were his dishonerable tactics of hoing on the first merge. I decided to fight back and do the same. I killed him on successive ho's, and started forcing him to break first. Since my change in tactics (only when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>) the record now stands at 11 to 2 in favor of...well...not <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>.
It's relevant to this discussion because there is a dog fighters code of conduct that says if your looking for a fun, fair, good, dog fight you merge guns cold. Those that live by that code can get sucked into a head on merge, thinking they are engaging another who lives by the same code. It's a great dissapointment to find out the other pilot has no code and he took advantage of yours. Hence the ho whining. I've stopped whining about ho's a long time ago because I never assume any pilots flies by the code anymore unless I know who the pilot is. So I rarely line up for merge, and instead begin positioning my plane 3K out.
That said, I know not to look for a fair merge with 4 cannon brick that can't turn. Because to that plane, there is nothing fair about starting on equal terms against a plane that turns twice as good. I'f I'm in a 410 and you line up for head on merge in your Zeke....I have no choice but to Ho you. I can't survive any other scenario. Sorry. And for all you Spit, N1ki, hurry, Zeke, Spit jocks out there that complain about getting ho'd by Fw-190s, T-bolts, B-25s, and other assorted Bricks-of-the-Air, you're really just trying to use the code to guilt someone into giving you an easy kill.
Head on merges are for equal planes with equal E states, flown by pilots who live by the code. Otherwise they should be avoided, because they end up being unfair to someone, and the only way to even the odds is firing on the merge.
Happy flying :salute
Not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things (Bold text). There is no code of conduct nor do I look for a fair fight. Most of the time I ll give my 6 up to make sure someone does not run. The disappointment comes from the following. People that are looking for a fight make the assumption ( and I do make that assumption ) that for someone to join this game and pay a monthly fee, they must be doing it because of their love of dog fighting other planes (or in the case of a GVer fighting other GVs). There is a money investment and a big time investment we make looking for those few minutes of a good fight. The problem I have with the HO shot is not because of a code of conduct or because it is unfair. It is because I cannot understand why anyone would make the time and money investment in a game with "fighter" planes in order to avoid a fight. That is what a HO shot at the merge is. An attempt to kill someone without putting up a fight. It is the dumbest thing you could try since you are running the risk of getting shot also. So, when I invest 10 minutes of my life to get to a fight and the fight ends because someone decided to waste 10 minutes of his life to die or win without a fight it eventually gets to you. If it happens 6 time in a row you just wasted one hour for nothing. Even if you win it is a waste of time.
So, the whines are not due to a secret fighter code of conduct or looking for a fair fight etc. It is the frustration of the time wasted, and the stupidity of that tactic. Off line drone HOing is free so why pay for it?
-
:angel:
Not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things (Bold text). There is no code of conduct nor do I look for a fair fight. Most of the time I ll give my 6 up to make sure someone does not run. The disappointment comes from the following. People that are looking for a fight make the assumption ( and I do make that assumption ) that for someone to join this game and pay a monthly fee, they must be doing it because of their love of dog fighting other planes (or in the case of a GVer fighting other GVs). There is a money investment and a big time investment we make looking for those few minutes of a good fight. The problem I have with the HO shot is not because of a code of conduct or because it is unfair. It is because I cannot understand why anyone would make the time and money investment in a game with "fighter" planes in order to avoid a fight. That is what a HO shot at the merge is. An attempt to kill someone without putting up a fight. It is the dumbest thing you could try since you are running the risk of getting shot also. So, when I invest 10 minutes of my life to get to a fight and the fight ends because someone decided to waste 10 minutes of his life to die or win without a fight it eventually gets to you. If it happens 6 time in a row you just wasted one hour for nothing. Even if you win it is a waste of time.
So, the whines are not due to a secret fighter code of conduct or looking for a fair fight etc. It is the frustration of the time wasted, and the stupidity of that tactic. Off line drone HOing is free so why pay for it?
Yes I completely agree. But I gave up trying to convince folks to ..."play my way". :rofl
-
this is blatant trolling. htc takes cheat accusations very seriously. 2 week ban for violations of rules 1-867. :lol
-
YES IT IS Sally. In 14 pages of this thread the word cheat only appears four times, two of which are in THIS reply. The other person, used it jokingly.
this is blatant trolling. htc takes cheat accusations very seriously. 2 week ban for violations of rules 1-867. :lol
-
:angel:
Yes I completely agree. But I gave up trying to convince folks to ..."play my way". :rofl
I just don;t want to play their way :old:
-
YES IT IS Sally. In 14 pages of this thread the word cheat only appears four times, two of which are in THIS reply. The other person, used it jokingly.
Johnny, what's your name in-game?
-
EyeABuck
-
EyeABuck
Do you play Aces High?
I went back a few months and can't see anything under this name.
I'm just curious because suddenly you are posting a lot when I don't recall seeing you before.
-
LOL..... Do you know where ChangeUp went to school?
Do you play Aces High?
I went back a few months and can't see anything under this name.
I'm just curious because suddenly you are posting a lot when I don't recall seeing you before.
You don't recall seeing me because my name with 20k posts in BANNED FOREVER!!!!
-
LOL..... Do you know where ChangeUp went to school?
You don't recall seeing me because my name with 20k posts in BANNED FOREVER!!!!
I don't think he's talking about posts. This would be a player name and tour thing.
-
I don't think he's talking about posts. This would be a player name and tour thing.
Correct. Seems shading on the BBS is as common as shading in the arenas, lol. Loafer heels doesn't want to say, lol
-
The rules of the bbs are alot different then the game.
Stupido....
What? You want to test me? Ask me what none of you know...... wjat does lusche mean in German? Why do we not like Voss? Why does Debrody love to ho?
You need more cupcake?
-
it's torquila!!! :O what a nubbin... :lol
-
The rules of the bbs are alot different then the game.
Stupido....
What? You want to test me? Ask me what none of you know...... wjat does lusche mean in German? Why do we not like Voss? Why does Debrody love to ho?
You need more cupcake?
We didn't ask...because we don't really care. You can put your German dictionary down.
-
Shut it buckeye
We didn't ask...because we don't really care. You can put your German dictionary down.
-
Purse fight? :pray
:x
-
Shut it buckeye
He's all blow and no go. He can't even remember where I went to school and if he did, it wouldn't be like I hadn't heard it all before. He's finding his place in the AH world and right now its the BBS because he couldn't find it anywhere in game, lol.
-
It isn't my fault you, and every other OS grad can't find a job.
He's all blow and no go. He can't even remember where I went to school and if he did, it wouldn't be like I hadn't heard it all before. He's finding his place in the AH world and right now its the BBS because he couldn't find it anywhere in game, lol.
-
The rules of the bbs are alot different then the game.
Stupido....
What? You want to test me? Ask me what none of you know...... wjat does lusche mean in German? Why do we not like Voss? Why does Debrody love to ho?
You need more cupcake?
I kinda like this guy :cheers:
-
I kinda like this guy :cheers:
Birds of a feather?
-
Not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things (Bold text). There is no code of conduct nor do I look for a fair fight. Most of the time I ll give my 6 up to make sure someone does not run. The disappointment comes from the following. People that are looking for a fight make the assumption ( and I do make that assumption ) that for someone to join this game and pay a monthly fee, they must be doing it because of their love of dog fighting other planes (or in the case of a GVer fighting other GVs). There is a money investment and a big time investment we make looking for those few minutes of a good fight. The problem I have with the HO shot is not because of a code of conduct or because it is unfair. It is because I cannot understand why anyone would make the time and money investment in a game with "fighter" planes in order to avoid a fight. That is what a HO shot at the merge is. An attempt to kill someone without putting up a fight. It is the dumbest thing you could try since you are running the risk of getting shot also. So, when I invest 10 minutes of my life to get to a fight and the fight ends because someone decided to waste 10 minutes of his life to die or win without a fight it eventually gets to you. If it happens 6 time in a row you just wasted one hour for nothing. Even if you win it is a waste of time.
So, the whines are not due to a secret fighter code of conduct or looking for a fair fight etc. It is the frustration of the time wasted, and the stupidity of that tactic. Off line drone HOing is free so why pay for it?
I envoke the Code .....parlay
I agree with Vinkman
-
Birds of a feather?
Claims he's a Muppet... :confused:
-
Claims he was. Who would claim us in any case?
-
Muppets don't scream for attention.....we're just jerks :D
-
Muppets don't scream for attention.....we're just jerks :D
Maybe true but most are likeable jerks :D