Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Megalodon on July 25, 2013, 02:57:03 PM
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... when forced into service?
Some of the prototypes were also put into service?
It never flew a mission it was intended to be flown for?
Less than 16 were flown in combat?
Most of the production units were crashed... or destroyed by the allies before they were ever even test flown?
Is that true?,
Really?
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Did you just get shot by one ?
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no, it's from another discussion in the wishlist Zoney.
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And, as everyone knows, spreading the fertilizer in more sub-forums and threads with no context, whatsoever, makes for a better corn harvest. Unless the root varmints getcha. :D
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I hope you know the 190D's were a stop gap until the 152 could be in production. :old:
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It never flew a mission it was intended to be flown for?
Is that true?,
Really?
This is true in the sense it was purposely built to deal with the B-29's that Germany thought were on the way.
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From looking around on the Internet.
It is believed that, in all, Ta 152 airmen amassed a fairly meager amount of total aerial victories (sources vary but range between 7 and 10 enemy aircraft) to the loss of four of their own.
So I guess we can expect the J3 with bazookas under the wings?? Didn't it kill several vehicles? We could use it for base defense at VBases. And the Po-2 with bombs which saw combat all through the war and dropped lots of those tiny bombs. VBase defense and spotter.
U-2LSh: Two-seat ground-attack, close-support aircraft. The aircraft were armed with one 7.62 mm (0.30 in) ShKAS machine-gun in the rear cockpit. It could also carry up to 120 kg (265 lb) of bombs and four RS-82 rockets. Also known as the U-2VOM-1.
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The Ta152H was the type that is verified to have seen combat. The A and B versions could have entered production in January 1944 had the RLM not turned them down in late 1943. The Ta152 A/B versions did not offer a significant increase in performance over the FW190A currently in production to motivate the retooling of a significant portion of the aircraft industry. At least that was the reason given officially by the RLM. Clearly, they did not realize there actually was a huge increase in development potential in the Ta152 compared to the old workhorse FW190A with its huge BMW 801 radial.
In 1944 the Ta152H and C versions were granted production status. The FW190D also entered production as a stop-gap (read panic) solution (as by mid-44 the situation became outright embarrassing to the RLM) until the 152 production had started and the only significant upgrade was the inverted V12 Junkers Jumo 213A. It was significant however, we can all appreciate the difference between the Dora and the contemporary FW190A-8. The Ta152C however, may also have entered service. It was so similar to the more common FW190D that it could easily have been mistaken for it. The differences were a 50 cm longer wingspan, and a Ta152 tail, besides the DB603LA engine. This was a bit special because Kurt Tank had always wanted a Daimler-Benz to power his fighters but that production had always been reserved Messerschmitt, all DB production went to him. This was perhaps the ultimate recognition of Kurt Tank, that he finally was granted access to the DB line of production. I'd argue that had the FW190A been built with a DB engine from start, it would have shocked the RAF even more and additionally the true potential of the design had been fully realized. The BMW801 was tough alright, but the penalties of the huge frontal area can not be denied. So the Ta152C represented what Kurt Tank had always wanted to build.
It should be noted that the A/B versions (B was supposed to be Nachtjagd equipped) offered the inline potential of the Jumo 213A. For armament it had many optional setups, most notably it had MG151/20 cowling mounted (replacing the MG131s of the Dora) and was designed to carry the Mk103 center, firing through the engine and propeller hub. This was its most basic configuration, Mk103 center + 4 MG151/20s. There were also provisions for MG151/Mk108 in the outer wing stations as well as underwing pods for Mk103s. (By the way, that was the reason for Tank redesigning the whole wing and as he did so he also made it possible to detach one wing at a time making field repairs easier.) Now tell us that THAT is not a significant upgrade vs the Anton! However what probably killed it was that at the time the RLM looked at it the Jumo 213A was not offering much for power and looked weak in a comparison to the BMW801. It was not yet realized it was possible to take the Jumo beyond 2100 hp, as later Doras proved (D-11, 12, 13). The Ta152C was designed as a allround fighter/attack aircraft and had the same armament provisions as the A/B versions.
Anyway, the Ta152C may or may not have entered production and service with active units. Factory workers have testified it was in production, none are alive today. While records (those found, should be noted, because much was destroyed) show no such production. If there were any Ta152C active with front line units they could very easily have been mistaken for the more common FW190D and scrapped as such. There's supposed to have been a Ta152C equipped with a EZ42 gyroscopic sight at Rechlin which was slated for JG11 but it is unclear if it ever reached a JG11 unit, if it did it most likely would have been the JG11 Stab flight but that's remains just a guess.
Many of the Ta152H produced were lost to sabotage or airstrikes when transported on train. One Geschwaderkommodore who'd had a chance to test the Ta152H requested them for his whole Geschwader immediately and went through the roof when he heard about the production problems.
On a side note, the more-or-less famous incident when Kurt Tank left two P51Ds in the dust is likely to have been in one of the C prototypes. Tank flew both types frequently (participating in combat, unofficially) and the C had the specs to explain such a monstrous acceleration from rotation. Tank had just taken off when he heard the call from the tower that two Mustangs were 'over the fence' meaning at the very edge of the airfield, Tank engaged the emergency power system and just left the 51's behind.
The Ta152 is a interesting subject, but not without some controversy. As the situation deteriorated for the germans, proper documentation was ignored, destroyed or otherwise mishandled.
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Note that the FW190D was manufactured of A airframes, a specific section between fuselage and tail was added to give it more overall length (for stability) and the Jumo 213 power egg was added. So all they had to do was add the engine and the lengthening section to the A fuselages already manufactured. There were even some used As that were converted to Ds. It really was a panic solution to get inline powered FW190s in the air.
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... when forced into service?
Some of the prototypes were also put into service?
It never flew a mission it was intended to be flown for?
Less than 16 were flown in combat?
Most of the production units were crashed... or destroyed by the allies before they were ever even test flown?
Is that true?,
Really?
The Ta 152H-1, which we have in game, has already been pointed out to you that it was not a prototype but the first production version of the Ta 152. None of the prototypes were pressed into service, however, pre-production models like the Ta 152H-0 and the Ta 152C-0 were pooled with the remaining Ta 152H-1s into Stabstaffel JG 301. When Erprobungskommando Ta 152 received over a dozen Ta 152H-0s for operational service testing, they only were able to complete less then 30 hours before full production started on the Ta 152H-1.
And no, a prototype is not the same thing as a pre-production model.
ack-ack
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By the way...
here is a FW190A equipped with EZ42 sight.
(http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/revi/DiaShow/EZ190.jpg)
If anyone can identify the unit or pilot that'd be interesting.
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The Ta152H was the type that is verified to have seen combat. The A and B versions could have entered production in January 1944 had the RLM not turned them down in late 1943. The Ta152 A/B versions did not offer a significant increase in performance over the FW190A currently in production to motivate the retooling of a significant portion of the aircraft industry. At least that was the reason given officially by the RLM. Clearly, they did not realize there actually was a huge increase in development potential in the Ta152 compared to the old workhorse FW190A with its huge BMW 801 radial.
In 1944 the Ta152H and C versions were granted production status. The FW190D also entered production as a stop-gap (read panic) solution (as by mid-44 the situation became outright embarrassing to the RLM) until the 152 production had started and the only significant upgrade was the inverted V12 Junkers Jumo 213A. It was significant however, we can all appreciate the difference between the Dora and the contemporary FW190A-8. The Ta152C however, may also have entered service. It was so similar to the more common FW190D that it could easily have been mistaken for it. The differences were a 50 cm longer wingspan, and a Ta152 tail, besides the DB603LA engine. This was a bit special because Kurt Tank had always wanted a Daimler-Benz to power his fighters but that production had always been reserved Messerschmitt, all DB production went to him. This was perhaps the ultimate recognition of Kurt Tank, that he finally was granted access to the DB line of production. I'd argue that had the FW190A been built with a DB engine from start, it would have shocked the RAF even more and additionally the true potential of the design had been fully realized. The BMW801 was tough alright, but the penalties of the huge frontal area can not be denied. So the Ta152C represented what Kurt Tank had always wanted to build.
It should be noted that the A/B versions (B was supposed to be Nachtjagd equipped) offered the inline potential of the Jumo 213A. For armament it had many optional setups, most notably it had MG151/20 cowling mounted (replacing the MG131s of the Dora) and was designed to carry the Mk103 center, firing through the engine and propeller hub. This was its most basic configuration, Mk103 center + 4 MG151/20s. There were also provisions for MG151/Mk108 in the outer wing stations as well as underwing pods for Mk103s. (By the way, that was the reason for Tank redesigning the whole wing and as he did so he also made it possible to detach one wing at a time making field repairs easier.) Now tell us that THAT is not a significant upgrade vs the Anton! However what probably killed it was that at the time the RLM looked at it the Jumo 213A was not offering much for power and looked weak in a comparison to the BMW801. It was not yet realized it was possible to take the Jumo beyond 2100 hp, as later Doras proved (D-11, 12, 13). The Ta152C was designed as a allround fighter/attack aircraft and had the same armament provisions as the A/B versions.
Anyway, the Ta152C may or may not have entered production and service with active units. Factory workers have testified it was in production, none are alive today. While records (those found, should be noted, because much was destroyed) show no such production. If there were any Ta152C active with front line units they could very easily have been mistaken for the more common FW190D and scrapped as such. There's supposed to have been a Ta152C equipped with a EZ42 gyroscopic sight at Rechlin which was slated for JG11 but it is unclear if it ever reached a JG11 unit, if it did it most likely would have been the JG11 Stab flight but that's remains just a guess.
Many of the Ta152H produced were lost to sabotage or airstrikes when transported on train. One Geschwaderkommodore who'd had a chance to test the Ta152H requested them for his whole Geschwader immediately and went through the roof when he heard about the production problems.
On a side note, the more-or-less famous incident when Kurt Tank left two P51Ds in the dust is likely to have been in one of the C prototypes. Tank flew both types frequently (participating in combat, unofficially) and the C had the specs to explain such a monstrous acceleration from rotation. Tank had just taken off when he heard the call from the tower that two Mustangs were 'over the fence' meaning at the very edge of the airfield, Tank engaged the emergency power system and just left the 51's behind.
The Ta152 is a interesting subject, but not without some controversy. As the situation deteriorated for the germans, proper documentation was ignored, destroyed or otherwise mishandled.
:aok
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None of the prototypes were pressed into service, however, pre-production models like the Ta 152H-0 and the Ta 152C-0 were pooled with the remaining Ta 152H-1s into Stabstaffel JG 301. When Erprobungskommando Ta 152 received 12 Ta 152H-0s for operational service testing, they only were able to complete less then 30 hours before full production started on the Ta 152H-1.
And no, a prototype is not the same thing as a pre-production model.
ack-ack
Read carfully...still in the testing phase! All of them the H0's and H1's. Pilots got to train in the 152 to the tune of about an
hour each.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack_zps02f80c0f.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack1_zps8db1e33c.jpg)
There were only 13 operational/combat pilots <not test pilots> of the Ta-152?
The 12 Ta-152 H0's that the Erprobungskommando recieved... became the Stab/Jg301 but never joined III/JG301 and those planes that were left 4-6 went to the JG11 and were never used in combat.
So the only thing you disagree with in my post was the prototypes you mentioned in your post ....tell me where the three C-0's,VH+EY, CI+XM and GW+QA, came from and get back to me. :aok
EDIT: Nevermind I will just post it again as you arn't dumb enough to shoot your self in the foot right?
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-Prototypes_zpsd84cfe0c.jpg)
V6, V7, V8 ... prototypes
Setting the standard for low production numbers in AH
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you really want the Do 335 in game
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you really want the Do 335 in game
I do!
Here's my reason. I will have a lot of fun flying it if we get it.
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In reading JG26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, there was a pilot (forget the name) who said he preferred the 190A to the 190D. He said that the extra speed of the D wasn't worth the sacrifice in turning and roll ability compared to the A.
I'm not arguing that the A is better -- just an interesting quote that came to mind.
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As far as the Ta-152 goes, other than the G-10, has any other existing model ever been removed
from the game? The G-10 was actually replaced/renamed by the K-4, but that's the only one I can
recall.
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Read carfully...still in the testing phase! All of them the H0's and H1's. Pilots got to train in the 152 to the tune of about an
hour each.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack_zps02f80c0f.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack1_zps8db1e33c.jpg)
There were only 13 operational/combat pilots <not test pilots> of the Ta-152?
The 12 Ta-152 H0's that the Erprobungskommando recieved... became the Stab/Jg301 but never joined III/JG301 and those planes that were left 4-6 went to the JG11 and were never used in combat.
So the only thing you disagree with in my post was the prototypes you mentioned in your post ....tell me where the three C-0's,VH+EY, CI+XM and GW+QA, came from and get back to me. :aok
EDIT: Nevermind I will just post it again as even you arn't dumb enough to shoot your self in the foot right?
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-Prototypes_zpsd84cfe0c.jpg)
V6, V7, V8 ... prototypes
Setting the standard for low production numbers in AH
circumstancial
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circumstancial
Apply that at the begining instead of the end :aok
How many planes and tanks got stiffled?
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Read carfully...still in the testing phase! All of them the H0's and H1's. Pilots got to train in the 152 to the tune of about an
hour each.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack_zps02f80c0f.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152Ack1_zps8db1e33c.jpg)
There were only 13 operational/combat pilots <not test pilots> of the Ta-152?
The 12 Ta-152 H0's that the Erprobungskommando recieved... became the Stab/Jg301 but never joined III/JG301 and those planes that were left 4-6 went to the JG11 and were never used in combat.
So the only thing you disagree with in my post was the prototypes ....tell me where the three C-0's,VH+EY, CI+XM and GW+QA, came from and get back to me. :aok
Setting the standard for low production numbers in AH
I agree it is a low production number but not as low as you are claiming.
C-0's were produced by the Mimetall-Erfurt factory.
Early in January 1945 20 of 24 152s that were parked at the Cottbus-Neuhausen field were destroyed on the ground by the 8th air force.
Later in the month III./JG-301 received 24-26 152s at Alteno which many were lost in the conversion training.
Bustr is correct though there were not many kills achieved by the 152. But they flew more than one mission. At least 2 as a group with pilots like Keil going up in pairs more often.
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Megalodon you realize your attitude makes discussing this with you almost not-interesting? Right now... I could argue this in full... instead I'm going to open a beer and start up AH.
The 152H we have wasn't a prototype like the 335 was. Nor is it a fair assessment that its low numbers preclude it from being in AH as early as it was. Singling out production numbers is so myopic in the big picture.. We're talking about an airplane in a game such as AH, made by people such as HTC, for people such as the lot of us. Not just you and your anal retentiveness WRT production numbers.
AH is a world of air combat and the 152 was a good fit when it was added, all things considered. You're not considering all things (on purpose?), so no surprise you think it's a bad fit. In any case you're welcome to argue for any other plane's inclusion. First hand I can tell you that HTC are totally open to quality input of historical or hardware/empirical evidence, regardless how "unexpected" it is.
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Excellent perspective, Moot. :)
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And I'm not kidding on the HTC bit. Really do the research and they'll be all ears if you present it politely. I only talked to Pyro myself, but after 10 years the only impression I get is this one.
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Yes HTC is very open to real historical information. I will forever have to watch asking for a "Big Cocker" in a cockpit.
Hey I still didn't get the 200 yard zero mark on the back of the Russian props to set the PCP1 to.
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V6, V7, V8 ... prototypes
Ta 152C-0, was a pre-production airframe that had a prototype engine that was being evaluated for use on other variants as shown by the listings for V6 through V8. Again, does not prove your claim the Ta 152 we have in game was a prototype.
ack-ack
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The 152H we have wasn't a prototype like the 335 was.
Nor is it a fair assessment that its low numbers preclude it from being in AH as early as it was. Singling out production numbers is so myopic in the big picture.. We're talking about an airplane in a game such as AH, made by people such as HTC, for people such as the lot of us. Not just you and your anal retentiveness WRT production numbers.
Never said that what we have was a prototype read more carefully :aok
Nice speech get around 16 planes in combat :aok
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So what if it was still in testing phase? It was a machine just like other machines in wartime that were put in the hands of soldiers to the task of fighting the war. It wasn't "in testing phase" any more than the Ducati Desmosedici GP13 is "in testing phase" and thus doesn't deserve to score points on the championship. Taking a country like Germany in 'late 44 - '45 and saying they put a plane like the 152H into combat before going thru conventional development stages, and quoting cherry picked production/fielding numbers is just disingenuous.
Again with the obsession with 16 planes figure. Read more carefully? Articulate yourself more carefully. I'm done with this one.
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And I'm not kidding on the HTC bit. Really do the research and they'll be all ears if you present it politely. I only talked to Pyro myself, but after 10 years the only impression I get is this one.
Do research :rofl
There are so many planes that belong here before the 152 it is not even funny.... like you.
Lets talk about the big picture. Tell me about the plane and how it was so tragic that it couldnt be fleshed out
Any part of the Ta-152 you would like to talk about I'm game
Please,
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:rolleyes:
"Do research".... On the 152.
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So what if it was still in testing phase?
Again with the obsession with 16 planes figure. Read more carefully? Articulate yourself more carefully. I'm done with this one.
Prove there were more...
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:rolleyes:
"Do research".... On the 152.
I'm sorry my library only has 8-11 book on it. plus a handbook or 2 :aok
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German moon-base. I can't prove there never was one. :lol
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Ok back to ignore list.
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Ta 152C-0, was a pre-production airframe that had a prototype engine that was being evaluated for use on other variants as shown by the listings for V6 through V8. Again, does not prove your claim the Ta 152 we have in game was a prototype.
ack-ack
Again I never said it was
Okay show them to me... what you cant?
WTG btw the C models were prototypes ........ that wasnt that hard :aok
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German moon-base. I can't prove there never was one. :lol
just like you cant prove the 335 never had a combat flight? :rofl
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just like you cant prove the 335 never had a combat flight? :rofl
My point was wasted on you. ;)
I'm not your Moot replacement. I don't find what you're posting anymore interesting than he did(n't). :D
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Ok back to ignore list.
Like I said show me some proof .. your just blowing hard dood.
The Great Kurt Tank Remembrance plane that we just have to have..... Just because he was so cool...man!
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My point was wasted on you. ;)
I'm not your Moot replacement. I don't find what you're posting anymore interesting than he did(n't). :D
Your point is on your head :) I dont find most of the stuff you post interesting :lol
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Excerpt's from my book +4 publications Ta-152 for your educational pleasure
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152_zps6b1733bf.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-1521_zps7b2bda7f.jpg)
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(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-3_zps877676d3.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-4_zpsbd2aeb54.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-5_zpsb659f0d9.jpg)
:cheers:
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You realize that the only reason the Ta152 is in the game is because it reuses extensive chunks of the Fw190 art, right?
It isn't like they had the choice to add the Ta152 or the Beaufighter and chose the Ta152.
Your arguments consistently ignore reality. I'm not talking about WWII reality, though you are selective there, I am talking about game production reality.
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You realize that the only reason the Ta152 is in the game is because it reuses extensive chunks of the Fw190 art, right?
It isn't like they had the choice to add the Ta152 or the Beaufighter and chose the Ta152.
Your arguments consistently ignore reality. I'm not talking about WWII reality, though you are selective there, I am talking about game production reality.
You do realize it was made from the A3 airframe don't you?
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/halloween/crystal-ball.gif)
:D
From that line of thinking it won't be hard to add the A Mustangs then ... right? All of which were produced in higher numbers than the Ta-152, and shirley would have more impact in the game and flown in squadron strength. Even if we split the 150 P-51<MKIA> into USA and Brit versions,60 and 90 respectively, there were still way more flown in squadron form.
:aok
Edit: "Game production reality" did you just create that title? :lol ........ Who's reality is that? Yours? ;)
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I have no issues with the TA-152 being in the game, but it is a plane that was basically insignificant in the actual war. There are several other planes that were built in much larger quantities of hundreds or even thousands that were also insignificant in the actual war, such as the P-63, F7F, F8F, Meteor, and even the M26. If the TA-152 can be in the game, then alot of other planes should eventually also be in the game.
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I agree it is a low production number but not as low as you are claiming.
C-0's were produced by the Mimetall-Erfurt factory.
Early in January 1945 20 of 24 152s that were parked at the Cottbus-Neuhausen field were destroyed on the ground by the 8th air force.
Later in the month III./JG-301 received 24-26 152s at Alteno which many were lost in the conversion training.
Bustr is correct though there were not many kills achieved by the 152. But they flew more than one mission. At least 2 as a group with pilots like Keil going up in pairs more often.
Please show me the C-0's in service you speak of...
Correct!
You are wrong about this... the pilots were ferried by wood fired burning trucks to pick up the planes and fly them back to Alteno .. 11 made the trip.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta152Kilo_zps23ce3566.jpg)
The kills were 13
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I have no issues with the TA-152 being in the game, but it is a plane that was basically insignificant in the actual war. There are several other planes that were built in much larger quantities of hundreds or even thousands that were also insignificant in the actual war, such as the P-63, F7F, F8F, Meteor, and even the M26. If the TA-152 can be in the game, then alot of other planes should eventually also be in the game.
IIRC that is the way HT sees it.
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So what if it was still in testing phase? It was a machine just like other machines in wartime that were put in the hands of soldiers to the task of fighting the war. It wasn't "in testing phase" any more than the Ducati Desmosedici GP13 is "in testing phase" and thus doesn't deserve to score points on the championship. Taking a country like Germany in 'late 44 - '45 and saying they put a plane like the 152H into combat before going thru conventional development stages, and quoting cherry picked production/fielding numbers is just disingenuous.
Again with the obsession with 16 planes figure. Read more carefully? Articulate yourself more carefully. I'm done with this one.
So what? Comparing a WWII plane with a Riceracer :rofl
Show me more than 16 in combat. Whats your obsession 24? 59? They were all flying? Get real!
I don't need to read more carefully Moot.... whats to articulate? They were all still in testing when forced into service <shrug> The small amount of the H1's weren't even test flown just rolled out on the tarmac and picked up by there pilots or rolled on the tarmac and blown up by the Eighth Airforce or themselves in a few cases.
Taking a country like Germany? Your kidding right? How bout we take ALL the countries that were affected by Germany in the beginning of the war and give them some credit?. You seem to only favor Germany, poor Germany beat down so bad the couldn't flesh out the Ta-152, in this respect again <shrug>.
Disingenuous? :rolleyes: ...Pe-2 11,000 made.... And your jump-in up and down like a cheerleader because there were only 16 Ta's to make it into combat? That's disingenuous :aok
Common you are the champion of the 152... at least try to stick up for it.... the problem is you can't... it's all ready in Black and White..Posted.. that's why I'm on your ignore list. You don't like what is being said/shown ...Or some how you want to involve/intertwine the <BIG> philosophy of the war engine as to the reason the 16 planes should be in the game. Not all of them H1's mind you. If we say just the H1's in combat we can get down to about 5-8 planes :aok
Some how a plane that never flew a mission it was designed for, save the 1st mission of III/Jg301 <12 Ta152> where they never made it to altitude as they were repelled by their own 109's, made it in the game as a high altitude interceptor.
Game mechanics or not it sets the bar for us to have very low numbered production planes in the game.
I can't believe Krusty isn't in here screaming at the top of his lungs about this plane and it's insignificance and how unjust it is that this sucker is in the game.
Tell us more about the BIG picture,
:cheers:
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It wasn't a choice of HTC adding the Pe-2 or the Ta152 and them picking the Ta152. The decision you are insinuating happened didn't actually happen.
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It wasn't a choice of HTC adding the Pe-2 or the Ta152 and them picking the Ta152. The decision you are insinuating happened didn't actually happen.
I'm not talking about any decision im talking about numbers of planes 16 vs 11,000 again you fail to see things in perspective.
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I'm not talking about any decision im talking about numbers of planes 16 vs 11,000 again you fail to see things in perspective.
I have great perspective on it, which includes understanding of the subtleties that you refuse to even acknowledge the existence of. You seem incapable of perspective.
If you think I am suggesting in any way that the Ta152 is comparable in importance to the Pe-2, or numerous other aircraft, you haven't been reading what I have been saying. The Ta152 was a footnote, it just happened to be a footnote that was easy for HTC to add.
My suggested lists of things I think AH needs are filled with things like the Pe-2, Beaufighter and Wellington that were built in four and five digit quantities and we heavily used (no P-63). Nowhere on my lists do you find units that were only produced in double digits. I can't think of any triple digit numbers even.
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German moon-base.
(http://www.wallsave.com/wallpapers/1920x1080/museam/238224/museam-notes-from-the-curator-s-office-under-and-iron-sky-238224.jpg)
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As someone might be prone to suggesting .... prove it didn't happen. :D
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After read the entire thread I'm at a loss... :o
Yes the 152 was still in testing,it saw squadron assignment,it saw limited combat,it scored kills and was shot down. So whats the argument?
I have never seen a definitive answer to what will and wont be included in AH,I think Hitech is too smart to paint himself in a corner like that,but that's just MHO.
Should the Pe2 or Beau be ingame,sure,should the P63 be included,why not? I think a case could be made for inclusion of the F7F,more built than 152 and they had 3 tooling around on Okinawa. Even the F8f was in squadron use,although mostly in the US with some intransit. On the German side I see the 162 could be included,doesnt matter though because again I've never once seen HTC say what were grounds for inclusion in Aces High.
YMMV and I have my big boy pants on so say what you will I wont take it personal.
:salute
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After read the entire thread I'm at a loss... :o
Yes the 152 was still in testing,it saw squadron assignment,it saw limited combat,it scored kills and was shot down. So whats the argument?
I have never seen a definitive answer to what will and wont be included in AH,I think Hitech is too smart to paint himself in a corner like that,but that's just MHO.
Should the Pe2 or Beau be ingame,sure,should the P63 be included,why not? I think a case could be made for inclusion of the F7F,more built than 152 and they had 3 tooling around on Okinawa. Even the F8f was in squadron use,although mostly in the US with some intransit. On the German side I see the 162 could be included,doesnt matter though because again I've never once seen HTC say what were grounds for inclusion in Aces High.
YMMV and I have my big boy pants on so say what you will I wont take it personal.
:salute
searching piles of crap in Do 335 threads i found a reply by Skuzzy that said it's up to Pyro. He makes the decisions on those things and that he didn't know what his rules for inclusion were of he had any. My guess would be a large bag of cash.
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searching piles of crap in Do 335 threads i found a reply by Skuzzy that said it's up to Pyro. He makes the decisions on those things and that he didn't know what his rules for inclusion were of he had any. My guess would be a large bag of cash.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:salute
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(http://www.wallsave.com/wallpapers/1920x1080/museam/238224/museam-notes-from-the-curator-s-office-under-and-iron-sky-238224.jpg)
That movie is hilarious.
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I only see a overblown ego jousting affair in this thread. Everyone are of course entitled to their opinions and thoughts on the matter, but the game production argument is a valid one. Please also realize that the situation is a dynamic one, AH is not in it's final state nor will it ever be. More planes will be added and it's a undisputable fact there are dozens (if not more) of really significant aircraft types currently missing.
So I suggest you relax your ego a bit to enjoy the game better.
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Who cares you pay for the game if you don't like it or think things are unfair stop playing. If its such a heart break go learn to write code and do the work yourself and give it to the game for all to use and benefit otherwise suck it up dude
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/dead_men_dont_wear_plaid_1982_explaining_the_nazi_plot_part_2.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/dead_men_dont_wear_plaid_1982_explaining_the_nazi_plot_part_2.jpg.html)
"With America out of the way, we will win the next war - and the one after that too!"
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Did you just get shot by one ?
haha :aok
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I am for the inclusion of any and all of the so called "marginal" late war aircraft (TA-152, F7F, F8F, P-63, Do-335, He-162, P-80, et al) in the "game", provided of course that there is adequate data to model them accurately. Why? Because its a "game" and they would be fun to fly and fight with. Oh I know, its not "historical", but neither is Spitfires dogfighting with P-51's and P-47's, Me-109s fighting A6M's, Yaks shooting down B-17s or B-24s, Lanc-stukas and a million other things that occur in AH on a daily basis. There are many "what-if" scenarios that already play themselves out time and again in AH. Again, this is a "game", not a PhD dissertation on the history of WWII air combat. Just my opinion...
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As far as the Ta-152 goes, other than the G-10, has any other existing model ever been removed
from the game? The G-10 was actually replaced/renamed by the K-4, but that's the only one I can
recall.
Yes, the P47 D-30....I'm too :old: to remember why though.
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No plane has ever been removed from AH. Not the P-47D-30 and not the Bf109G-10. We'd have had to have had those in order for them to be removed.
In the case of the P-47D-30, it was always a P-47D-40, but it had been called a P-47D-30 in error. HTC merely corrected the label, no other changes happened to it.
In the case of the Bf109G-10, HTC had called their Bf109K-4 a Bf109G-10 to justify giving it options for a 20mm nose gun and the underwing gondolas, but it always had the performance specs of the Bf109K-4. When they redid the Bf109 lineup for AH2 they decided they wanted more accuracy so they took off the 20mm options and correctly named it the Bf109K-4. If we had had the Bf109G-10 we'd have had a Bf109 that topped out at about 425mph, but we've never had such a Bf109 as the AH1 Bf109G-10 did 452mph at best altitude, because it was really a Bf109K-4.
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No plane has ever been removed from AH
P-40B was removed. :(
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P-40B was removed. :(
No... It was always modeled after P-40C specs. We simply got them to call it what it was and give it the drop tank that P-40Cs could carry.
Much like the G10 was never in Aces High, neither was the P-40B. It is still exactly modeled like it was, just named to reflect its accurate designation.
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No... It was always modeled after P-40C specs. We simply got them to call it what it was and give it the drop tank that P-40Cs could carry.
Much like the G10 was never in Aces High, neither was the P-40B. It is still exactly modeled like it was, just named to reflect its accurate designation.
Something doesn't add up, because the P-40C handles way better than the B did. The B would get waxed bad if it was still around to fight the C model. I was flying the B at the time right before the remodel and can tell you the C is a much better performer.
Since the flight model and model designation were changed, then that means the P-40B was removed.
Saying it is modeled the same doesn't make it true. I'd love to see your AH P-40B/P-40C in-game performance charts for comparison.
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There are some flight model upgrades, but please remember that the P-40s were a first-generation flight model. They (and all other similarly-aged flight models) were brought up to modern quality specs when the graphics were updated.
If you look at the hurricanes, similar changes were made. If you look at other planes in a similar situation you notice a change. 190s had a change. Lavochkins had a change. N1k2s had a change.
But if you look at the specs for speed, climb, etc, it hits all the same bullet points as the old "B" model (which was never a B).
Real "B" models would be noticably lighter and faster.
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No plane has ever been removed from AH. Not the P-47D-30 and not the Bf109G-10. We'd have had to have had those in order for them to be removed.
In the case of the P-47D-30, it was always a P-47D-40, but it had been called a P-47D-30 in error. HTC merely corrected the label, no other changes happened to it.
Thank you for that clarification Karnak. :salute :cheers:
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Something doesn't add up, because the P-40C handles way better than the B did. The B would get waxed bad if it was still around to fight the C model.
The flight models of the P-40s were completely redone. P-40B (now C) for example became roughly 480lbs lighter (empty) in the process and gained 8mph on the deck.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274437.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274437.0.html)
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... when forced into service?
Some of the prototypes were also put into service?
It never flew a mission it was intended to be flown for?
Less than 16 were flown in combat?
Most of the production units were crashed... or destroyed by the allies before they were ever even test flown?
Is that true?,
Really?
Never heard of any of the V a/c seeing service with a combat unit. :)
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I think he means preproduction series-0 craft. Those have seen combat since the early days of the war.... just not with a systematic approach to it.
In this case I think he's calling the 152H-0 a prototype, which isn't correct. Not in the literal sense of the word.
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I think he means preproduction series-0 craft. Those have seen combat since the early days of the war.... just not with a systematic approach to it.
In this case I think he's calling the 152H-0 a prototype, which isn't correct. Not in the literal sense of the word.
Nope the C-0's were prototypes taken directly from the V's there were no production or pre-production C-0's, only prototype/development.... with test engines. Read the operational history I posted and see the prototype chart!
V8 WrN. 110008 GW+QA most likly and V6-V7 possible saw combat. But ...If you would like to say that no C-0's ever saw combat that would be fine by me. :aok
I have accounted for 2 of them in my numbers.
16-2=14 Ta 152 in combat.
:cheers:
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C-0s weren't prototypes. They were developmental steps to the production series. A finalizing step. Not just talking 152Cs, either, but all craft with a -0 series. There were some 100 or so C-1s on a production line at the end of the war in various stages of completion. Not one got out the door, but these were only possible to construct because of the 152C-0.
Ta152 prototypes were not combat craft. The Ta152C prototype, for example, was a modified 190D airframe. The C-0 series was for service testing (including combat testing, how the plane operated, how hard it was to maintain it, to repair it, etc -- the whole package).
A number of the 152Hs that saw combat were H-0s. That doesn't make them prototypes either. They were a stepping stone to what the "standard" would be with the H-1. They were still figuring things out. Normally -0 series (heck, even -1 series most times) don't see combat but because of the rushed nature of the 152's introduction to service in 1945 these ones did.
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Notice anything about these werknummers?
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152CPrototypes_zps9f27c747.jpg)
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4 20mm instead of a hub 30?
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The flight models of the P-40s were completely redone. P-40B (now C) for example became roughly 480lbs lighter (empty) in the process and gained 8mph on the deck.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274437.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274437.0.html)
If I'm reading the thread right: we previously had a P-40B that was as heavy as a C and now have a P-40C that is as heavy as a B. :headscratch:
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4 20mm instead of a hub 30?
Well yes but they were prototypes.
The original prototypes for the C-1 were supposed to be V10,11 and 12 they were canceled. V6,7 and 8 became the prototypes and were called C-0's
There were 3 of them produced and are on the prototype chart I posted earlier in the thread. One of them was in action and the other 2 maybe
C Prototypes,
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So you deny the fact that there were NO production models period?
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So you deny the fact that there were NO production models period?
production models of which?
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production models of which?
So there were no Ta-152's made strictly for combat, as oppose to being a prototype?
I think tweaking a prototype so as to make it a combat ready counts to haveing produced it.
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by modern standards weren't most wwII airplanes prototypes anyway?
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Would be sweet to have the C in-game available on the 163 base only, and perked in the 300-500 range. Would make it a rare bird indeed.
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So there were no Ta-152's made strictly for combat, as oppose to being a prototype?
I think tweaking a prototype so as to make it a combat ready counts to haveing produced it.
Yes the H-1's were made for combat...but were still being test flown and only single numbers of the varient H-1 saw combat... the H1 was a production varient.
The H-O's were 12 planes delivered to the Eurobungscommando as test aircraft.
Actually the most badfinger models may have been the A and B model :aok
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/350/ta152abir6.jpg)
"6 x 20 mm Mausers plus one MK-103 and two MK-108 30 mm, posibility of two more cannons with field conversion, in some sources the wingroots guns are Mauser MG 213 but I am not sure if those revolver-guns could be synchronizated."
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6323/ta152totalxg4.jpg)
Lotalead,
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Holy crap batman :O
That is alot of firepower!
Think I found the best BnZ/HO/bomber hunting plane ever :banana:
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by modern standards weren't most wwII airplanes prototypes anyway?
Modern? You could apply it to the planes of the time as well... I guess the answer to your question is.. yep most planes were made better, advanced in some form or another till they were either stopped from doing so or the war was over.
I don't no quite how to spin this for you.... I will just say 700 D.520 vs. a single #ed plane. Hundreds of kills vs. 10-13.
As far as you are concerned your country was stiffled at the beginning of the war and could no longer produce planes they way they wished. There were lots of plans for the Dewoitine. Like the 525, 551 and 560. Who knows by the end of the war there may have been a 575 or 600.
(http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/D520_fichiers/D551_D560.jpg)
Same with the M.S.406
"In 1939, Hispano started prototype deliveries of the new Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine of 969.4 kW (1,300 hp). One was fitted to a modified M.S.410 to create the M.S.450, giving dramatic improvements in performance, especially at altitude. However the engine did not enter production before France fell, and the similarly modified Dewoitine D.520 (the D.523/D.551) was considered a better design for the engine anyway."
M.S.450
(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/france/morane_ms-450_1.jpg)
or the VG33 with the VG-40 Merlin powered or the VG-50 Allison 1710-39
I could go on...yours was not the only country..
On the other hand we're being told by Moot that poor Germany was being stiffled towards the end of the war and could hardly get any version of any of the 152's they had planed for development to fruition ...but ..we have been allowed a plane with 16 or less total models of the type in combat <prototypes included> in the game because it was part of the "Big" picture. The reason... it was easy to do, a little stretch here a few bumps here....Wallah. Even tho most of the Ta-152 were from A-3 airframes which we don't even have in the game.
We're also being told by Krusty and Karnak that some planes that saw greater service, made in greater numbers, saw more combat and had way more impact on/in the war, but ..are still not made in enough numbers to be considered in the game or are too insignificant in the rolls that they played to be included in the game..like say Australia's Boomerang or the Mustang Mk1, P51 or P-51A etc....
Mean while 240, 109F-4/R1 came off the assembly line and they are just not acceptable. I can't fathom why the bomb and gondolas have not been replaced on the 109F-4 in any of the last patches that have come out since the scenario management was redone. Spite!
Ack has said that our model here in the game is an H1. Most H-1's were either crashed on test/training flights, crashed during shuttling of aircraft between air bases while retreating, blown up by the Eighth Air Force, or the Germans themselves as they didn't want them captured or not finished.. not to mention there were only 13 trained Ta-152 combat pilots to fly the thing.
With approximately 43 H-1 produced, some of which were retained to as prototypes/development for later models of the 152 like the C-3, H-10 and H-11,
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-production_zps350f84a3.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/ta-152-production-1_zpseda59355.jpg)
I'm not asking it be removed, I just think its wrong for it to be here before allot of more deserving planes.
:salute
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(http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
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We're also being told by Krusty and Karnak that some planes that saw greater service, made in greater numbers, saw more combat and had way more impact on/in the war, but ..are still not made in enough numbers to be considered in the game or are too insignificant in the rolls that they played to be included in the game..like say Australia's Boomerang or the Mustang Mk1, P51 or P-51A etc....
Mean while 240, 109F-4/R1 came off the assembly line and they are just not acceptable. I can't fathom why the bomb and gondolas have not been replaced on the 109F-4 in any of the last patches that have come out since the scenario management was redone. Spite!
Kindly don't ascribe to me positions I don't hold and haven't claimed to hold, often stating the exact opposite.
What you did here is known as lying and slander.
You are much to emotional and can't seem to separate out explanations for things from support for things. Were it up to me I would not have chosen the Ta152 to be added, but nobody asked me and all I have done here is explained why I think it made it in.
EDIT:
To clarify on your other accusations. I support the A-36 and P-51A being added. I oppose the quad 20mm being added because it is only being asked for to be used as a dweebmobile and nothing else.
As I stated in the Bf109F-4 thread, I think the gondolas and bomb ought to be added back in, and the 30mm option for the G-6 while they're at it.
The Boomerang is a low priority with many, many more significant aircraft ahead of it, but it should eventually be added. I do not mean that marginal things like the Ta152 and Meteor Mk III are ahead of it. I mean things like the Beaufighter, Pe-2, Tu-2 and Wellington are ahead of it.
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Kindly don't ascribe to me positions I don't hold and haven't claimed to hold, often stating the exact opposite.
What you did here is known as lying and slander.
EDIT:
To clarify on your other accusations. I support the A-36 and P-51A being added. I oppose the quad 20mm being added because it is only being asked for to be used as a dweebmobile and nothing else.
As I stated in the Bf109F-4 thread, I think the gondolas and bomb ought to be added back in, and the 30mm option for the G-6 while they're at it.
The Boomerang is a low priority with many, many more significant aircraft ahead of it, but it should eventually be added. I do not mean that marginal things like the Ta152 and Meteor Mk III are ahead of it. I mean things like the Beaufighter, Pe-2, Tu-2 and Wellington are ahead of it.
Your a piece of work Karnak.... what did I lie about. You sit there say I lied and then come back and edit in exactly what I said about you.
But you would like the J2M5? 46 built 4 cannon monster? or 300 of the J2M3?
What a Buffoon,
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Your a piece of work Karnak.... what did I lie about.
You said: We're also being told by Krusty and Karnak that some planes that saw greater service, made in greater numbers, saw more combat and had way more impact on/in the war, but ..are still not made in enough numbers to be considered in the game or are too insignificant in the rolls that they played to be included in the game..like say Australia's Boomerang or the Mustang Mk1, P51 or P-51A etc....
Claiming that I, and Krusty who I won't speak for and have had disagreements with, oppose the Boomerang, Mustang Mk I, P-51, P-51A, ect when I support all of those other than the quad cannon P-51 for stated reasons. You claimed I opposed those, I said otherwise, and then you claimed immediately after than I opposed them again. Can you read?
You also said: Mean while 240, 109F-4/R1 came off the assembly line and they are just not acceptable. I can't fathom why the bomb and gondolas have not been replaced on the 109F-4 in any of the last patches that have come out since the scenario management was redone. Spite!
I have specifically said, and did in the post right above yours, that the gondolas and bomb should be added back in for the Bf109F-4. I have maintained that position since the ability to limit loadouts was added. Again, you turned around and stated that I said the exact opposite. Can you read? It really doesn't sound like it.
You sit there say I lied and then come back and edit in exactly what I said about you.
Lying, or failing to read and then stating what you assume I said, doesn't help your position.
But you would like the J2M5? 46 built 4 cannon monster? or 300 of the J2M3?
J2M5 had two cannon, not four. J2M3 had four. As to what I would like is the J2M3/J2M3a and the J2M5 added as the J2M5 would be relatively easy to add if the artwork for the J2M3 was already made. If only one of those is to be added it should obviously be the J2M3.
Have you no common sense?
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You said: Claiming that I, and Krusty who I won't speak for and have had disagreements with, oppose the Boomerang, Mustang Mk I, P-51, P-51A, ect when I support all of those other than the quad cannon P-51 for stated reasons. You claimed I opposed those, I said otherwise, and then you claimed immediately after than I opposed them again. Can you read?
You also said: I have specifically said, and did in the post right above yours, that the gondolas and bomb should be added back in for the Bf109F-4. I have maintained that position since the ability to limit loadouts was added. Again, you turned around and stated that I said the exact opposite. Can you read? It really doesn't sound like it.
Lying, or failing to read and then stating what you assume I said, doesn't help your position.
J2M5 had two cannon, not four. J2M3 had four. As to what I would like is the J2M3/J2M3a and the J2M5 added as the J2M5 would be relatively easy to add if the artwork for the J2M3 was already made. If only one of those is to be added it should obviously be the J2M3.
Have you no common sense?
the F-4 comment wasnt directed at you you just took it that way <shrug>
My Japanese is a little rough... can you tell me what this says?
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/j2m3specs_zps3b618597.jpg)(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/j2m5specs_zpsd8c3d9ce.jpg)
:cheers:
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Shows four 20mm for both. I am trying to find where I saw the J2M5 had two 20mm.
In either case, your barb makes no sense as both had four 20mm by that. It isn't like I was suggesting the J2M5 be added to get one with four 20mm cannons.
J2M3 is obviously the priority for Raidens.
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Shows four 20mm for both. I am trying to find where I saw the J2M5 had two 20mm.
In either case, your barb makes no sense as both had four 20mm by that. It isn't like I was suggesting the J2M5 be added to get one with four 20mm cannons.
J2M3 is obviously the priority for Raidens.
No your suggesting you know more than you do... go buy a book or two before opening your mouth.
Lol with 300<j2m3> copies 4 cannons late war and you don't want the P-51 early war version.. :rofl
As far as the J2M5 46 copies about the same as the 152 ...Hark it will be accepted! :bhead
Your a Joke,
Edit: the 51 would go over way better with the AH crowd then the J2m3 :aok
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No your suggesting you know more than you do... go buy a book or two before opening your mouth.
Lol with 300<j2m3> copies 4 cannons late war and you don't want the P-51 early war version.. :rofl
As far as the J2M5 46 copies about the same as the 152 ...Hark it will be accepted! :bhead
Your a Joke,
Edit: the 51 would go over way better with the AH crowd then the J2m3 :aok
Disengage your emotions for cripes sake. You seem really ego driven and anger driven.
1) I can name many things that would go over better with the AH crowd that are a bad idea. The quad cannon P-51A was not as significant as the machine gun armed variants. Introduce both into AH and 95+% of the P-51A sorties will have the 20mm cannons. A perk ordnance system would allow the 20mm to be added as an option with a slight perk cost to it, same goes for the A-20G, but without that the historically significant versions would be rare as hens teeth in AH, something I don't think is a good thing.
2) Why do you dislike having more options? What skin is it off of your back if the J2M3 and J2M5 is added rather than just the J2M3? For what it is worth, when/if the J2M is added I would be very surprised if it is anything other than just the J2M3 with maybe an option for the J2M3a's guns in the hangar.
3) Books on the J2M are not exactly common, but I'll tell my books they don't exist for you.
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Disengage your emotions for cripes sake. You seem really ego driven and anger driven.
1) I can name many things that would go over better with the AH crowd that are a bad idea. The quad cannon P-51A was not as significant as the machine gun armed variants. Introduce both into AH and 95+% of the P-51A sorties will have the 20mm cannons. A perk ordnance system would allow the 20mm to be added as an option with a slight perk cost to it, same goes for the A-20G, but without that the historically significant versions would be rare as hens teeth in AH, something I don't think is a good thing.
2) Why do you dislike having more options? What skin is it off of your back if the J2M3 and J2M5 is added rather than just the J2M3? For what it is worth, when/if the J2M is added I would be very surprised if it is anything other than just the J2M3 with maybe an option for the J2M3a's guns in the hangar.
3) Books on the J2M are not exactly common, but I'll tell my books they don't exist for you.
Rare as hens teeth... like the Ta-152? There was no quad cannon P-51A
Why do you dislike having more options? What skin is it off of your back if the Mustang I and Ia is added rather than just the A36 and P-51A? For what it is worth, when/if the P-51 is added I would be very surprised if it is anything other than just the MkI with maybe an option for the Mk1a guns in the hangar.
Uncommon... No hard to find maybe. I have 3 ..Edit make that 5... 2 new 1's <G>
Keep making my argument for me,
Do you read books befor the psych exam's you dispense
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If the J2M is added, I would like to see the J2M2 in addition to the J2M3...........as long as the extra speed of the J2M2 is modeled.