Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Eric19 on August 13, 2013, 11:13:04 PM
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P63 combat records from wiki
The first version to be supplied in quantity to the USSR was the P-63A-7 with a higher vertical tail, and reinforced wings and fuselage. The fuselage proved to require strengthening, consequently in October 1944, a reinforcement kit for operational P-63s was developed.[11])
Air Transport Command ferry pilots, including U.S. women pilots of the WASP program, picked up the planes at the Bell factory at Niagara Falls, New York, and flew them to Great Falls, Montana and then onward via the Northwest Staging Route through Canada to Alaska, where Russian ferry pilots, many of them women, would take delivery of the aircraft at Nome [12] and fly them to the Soviet Union over the Bering Strait via the Alaska-Siberia route (ALSIB). A total of 2,397 (2,672, according to other sources [13]) such aircraft were delivered to USSR, out of the overall 3,303 production aircraft (72.6%).[14]
By a 1943 agreement, P-63s were disallowed for Soviet use against Germany and were supposed to be concentrated in the Soviet Far East for an eventual attack on Japan.[citation needed] However, there are many unconfirmed reports from both the Soviet and German side that P-63s did indeed see service against the Luftwaffe. Most notably, one of Pokryshkin's pilots reports in his memoirs published in the 1990s that the entire 4th GvIAP was secretly converted to P-63s in 1944, while officially still flying P-39s. One account states they were in action at Königsberg, in Poland and in the final assault on Berlin. There are German reports of P-63s shot down by both fighters and flak. Nevertheless, all Soviet records show nothing but P-39s used against Germany.
In general, official Soviet histories played down the role of Lend-Lease supplied aircraft in favor of local designs, but it is known that the P-63 was a successful fighter aircraft in Soviet service. A common Western misconception is that the Bell fighters were used as ground attack aircraft.
"One of the enduring myths regarding the P-39/P-63 in Soviet use is that because of its armament, in particular the 37mm nose cannon, it excelled as a ground-attack aircraft, even a 'tank buster'. In translating and preparing this manuscript for publication, I have had the opportunity to peruse several Russian-language sources. Mentions of the employment of this aircraft in the ground-attack role are so rare in these sources as to be exceptional ... The 'tank buster' myth has its roots in the misunderstanding of the general wartime role of the Red Air Force and in the imprecise translation of specific Russian-Language terms that describe this role. The specific Russian-Language term most often used to describe the mission and role of the Airacobra-equipped Red Air Force fighter units, in this manuscript and other Russian-language sources , is prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk [coverage of ground forces]... Frequent misunderstanding in this country as to the combat role of the P-39 in Soviet use is based in part on imprecise translation of the term prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk to 'ground support'. The latter term as it is understood by many Western military historians and readers, suggests the attacking of ground targets in support of ground troops, also called 'close air support'. Did a Soviet Airacobra pilot ever strafe a German tank? Undoubtedly. But this was never a primary mission or strong suit for this aircraft."
—Soviet Army Colonel Dmitriy Loza
The Soviets developed successful group aerial fighting tactics for the Bell fighters and scored a surprising number of aerial victories over a variety of German aircraft. Low ceilings, short missions, good radios, a sealed and warm cockpit and ruggedness contributed to their effectiveness. To pilots who had once flown the tricky Polikarpov I-16, the aerodynamic quirks of the mid-engined aircraft were unimportant. In the Far East, P-63 and P-39 aircraft were used in the Soviet invasion of Manchukoku and northern Korea.
In the Pacific theatre, the Kingcobras flew escort, close air support and ground attack missions. The Soviet P-63s achieved their first air victory on 15 August 1945, when Lejtenant I. F. Miroshnichenko from 17th IAP/190 IAD, shot down a Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa Army fighter off the coast of North Korea.[13]
Sufficient aircraft continued in use after the war for them to be given the NATO reporting name of Fred. By 9 May 1945, operational units had still 1,148 Kingcobras on strength.[13]
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Umm, you do know that wiki is not always the most reliable source. I'm not saying that this is wrong, only that it is wise to take all wiki entries with a grain of salt. At least double, or triple check their statements.
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I know but for the most part it is correct
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everything that icepac posts is a lie
learn it, remember it
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If you get through all of "Attack of the Airacobras" The only mention of the P-63 was in rosters showing plane strength in april of 1945. Ther is mentions that the squadren contained P-63s, but I also think there was a note saying they had just arrived, and no one was certified on them yet, so they weren't flying any sortees. The war ended soon there after. I doubt if any P-63 saw action against Germany.
But that's not a reason to not have the plane in Aces high. Carsairs didn't fight mustangs, or 109s either. The number of Ta-152, Comets, and F4UC was very small and had no impact on the war. Those planes are in the game, but they are perked to help reflect their low usage. The game allows us to creat matchups that never happened, and use planes in ways they were never used in the actual war. That's one of the magnificent things about the game. think of all the arguments that have been put to rest because we know how a 109 stacked up against a N1k. Instead of debating it endless on the BBS, we just go fly and find out.
I'd love to see the P-63 in the game, because by many acounts, Bell perfected the P-39 in the P-63. quirky gun package aside, the plane may have been the best All American Dog Fighter of the war. And may have been the best V12 powered dog fighter of the war. The decision to send it to the Russians was a practical, tactical, and political one. It wasn't becasue the plane wasn't an excellent plane.
I love flying the P-39, but it's just too slow for the MA horde of Spit 16s, La7, Ponies, and 109s, etc. The P-63 would be very competative in the MA. Not uber...or a game changer, but for those of us that like What Bell did with the P-39, it would be the LW plane of choice. :salute
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I love the bell design. Cept the Q is too slow :furious
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everything that icepac posts is a lie
learn it, remember it
I believe this post quoted violates the terms of service for these forums.
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I doubt if any P-63 saw action against Germany.
But that's not a reason to not have the plane in Aces high.
Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.
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If the P-63 is ever added I hope it is only ever allowed to have Soviet skins.
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Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.
It didn't see action against Germany. It did see action against the Japanese, so it qualifies.
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If the P-63 is ever added I hope it is only ever allowed to have Soviet skins.
Agreed. :salute
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Is that ACTUAL combat, or "There was combat. And P-63s maybe probably were in the general vicinity of the front lines but we don't have any evidence that it was actually the P-63s IN combat."
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It didn't see action against Germany. It did see action against the Japanese, so it qualifies.
It's debatable whether or not the P-63 saw combat against the Japanese. The story varies depending on the 'source'. Some sources state that one Ki-43 from the IJAAF was shot down by a Soviet P-63, other sources state it was a Ki-27 or Ki-43 from either the Manchukuo Imperial Air Force or the National Government of China Air Force of the Reorganized National Government of China (Inner Mongolia Japanese puppet government). Some accounts also state the action took place over Manchuria, others state Mongolia or over what is now North Korea.
Would be nice to actually see some sort of official record of the account.
ack-ack
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Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.
It saw action against the Japanese
Simpler,
"The initial Kingcobras went to units that had been armed with Aircobras. The first to receive P-63s was the 28th IAP of PVO, based near Moscow. P-63s arrived at the 17th and the 821st IAPs, ten planes in each. In autumn several Kingcobras came to the 39th IAP. All these regiments entered PVO of the Moscow region. By May 1, 1945 51 PVO regiments were equipped with P-63s.
The P-63 began to be delivered in to Soviet Air Forces in the summer of 1945. As preparations were made for the war with Japan, the new fighters were sent to aviation units of the 12th Air Army in the Far East. The 190th aviation division under the command of Major General Fokin was the first to receive P-63A. The division was transfered to Trans-Baikal in June 1945 and by August 2 finished retraining on the new American fighter. During air operations in Manchuria it flew from two airfields–”Ural” and “Leningrad”–located not far from Choibolsan in Mongolia.
The 245th IAD, which included the 940th and the 781st IAP regiments also flew P-63s. In July and August Kingcobras arrived at the 128th SAD (mixed aviation division), based on Kamchatka peninsula. At the beginning of air operations 97 P-63s arrived at the 9th and the 10th Air Armies.
During the brief military campaign against Japan, Kingcobras were used to provide air cover from air ground troops and ships, to attack and bomb, provide escort, and conduct reconnaissance. For example, on the second day of the offensive, Aug 11, 40 II-4 bombers, escorted by 50 P-63s bombed the fortifications at Suchzhou. Pilots of the 190th and the 245th IADs working as attack planes and light bombers supported the advancing Soviet and Mongolian troops. They also covered transport planes, delivering fuel to the advanced tank and mechanized units. The P-63s carried two Soviet FAB-100 bombs externally. Underwing large-caliber machine guns were not usually mounted when bombs were carried. The 888th and the 410th IAPs from the Kamchatka peninsula inflicted considerable damage to Japanese bases on the Kuril Islands, and then covered the landing of Soviet troops on them.
The Japanese aircraft did not offer serious resistance to the advancing Soviet armies, therefore it was impossible to assess the Kingcobra’s performance in air fights. One unique air combat in a P-63 was flown by Junior Lieutenant I. F. Mirishnichenko of the 17th IAP. On August 17 he and V. F. Sirotin (a Hero of the Soviet Union) attacked two Japanese fighters, who were attacking transport planes coming in for a landing not far from the ship Vanemyao. One Japanese pilot was shot down, another managed to disappear on low-level flight among nearby hills. Miroshnichenko probably shot down the Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters."
As of August 1, 1945... the last month of the Pacific war....the soviets had these P-63's units in action in squadron form Aug 9th fighting and bombing and scoring at least 2 kills .....the war is not over till September 2nd. http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=167 (http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=167)
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm)
Transbaikal Front
12 Air Army Marshal S. A. Khudyakov
190 IAD Col. V.V. Fokin
17 IAP P-63A
821 IAP P-63A (only 2 regiments)
245 IAD Col. G. P. Pleshchenko
781 IAP P-63A
940 IAP P-63A
Far Eastern Front
128 SAD Lt. Col. M. A. Eryomin
888 IAP P-63A
410 ShAP P-63A
903 BAP SB-2, PV-1, A-20G-1
The P-63 was based off of the P-39Q which we have in the game and would be an "easy addition" to the game. Such as the Ta-152 and P-47M. Produced in far more numbers, some 2000 delivered before the end of the war, the P-63A well deserves a spot in AH.
Edit:
Any one have this book... I believe it to have info on P-63's in the west against Germany.. It is extremely expensive here and writtin in Russian....Kilo, Lyric, Motherland, Wmaker?
Red Stars Vol 4 by Petrov and Guest 2002
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/rs4-book.jpg)
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php)
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I believe this post quoted violates the terms of service for these forums.
And so does this, #5...
Opps, now I have done it... :O
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Edit:
Any one have this book...
P-63: 3 different two-seaters
:huh
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:huh
Showing pics of the E and F 2 seaters <I think> I'm looking for text maybe talking of p-63's at or near the BoB :O <working on it>
When we get the P-63...the P-63A-10 would be the choice as it was the most produced of the A varient.
M-10 Cannon <a bit faster and 58 rounds>
4 x 50cal+
2 X 500lbs
6 x Rocketrail
P-63A (Bell Model 33): First production model (1,825 built), deliveries from October 1943.
Sub-variants were:
P-63A-1-BE: 50 built (s/ns 42-68861 - 42-68910). Virtually identical with XP-63A. Had 37mm M-4 cannon with 30 rounds, four 12.7mm guns and provision for a drop tank or a 227kg bomb under the fuselage.
P-63A-5-BE: 20 built (s/ns 42-68911 - 42-68930). Introduced dorsal radio mast. Increased armor.
P-63A-6-BE: 130 built (s/ns 42-68931 - 42-69060). Fitted with additional underwing racks for drop tanks or bombs. One experimentally fitted with ski undercarriage.
P-63A-7-BE: 150 built (s/ns 42-69061 - 42-69210). Different propeller, increase in wing loading, modified nose gun mounts and horizontal tail surfaces.
P-63A-8-BE: 200 built (s/ns 42-69211 - 42-69410). Increased armor, improved propeller, water injection added for engine, ammunition for wing guns reduced from 250 to 200rpg.
P-63A-9-BE: 450 built (s/ns 42-69411 - 42-69860). Increased armor, 37mm M-10 cannon (with 58 rounds) instead of earlier M-4.
P-63A-10-BE: 730 built (s/ns 42-69861 - 42-69879; 42-69975 - 42-70685). Armor further increased, underwing rocket rails added.
:cheers:
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Edit:
Any one have this book... I believe it to have info on P-63's in the west against Germany.. It is extremely expensive here and writtin in Russian....Kilo, Lyric, Motherland, Wmaker?
Red Stars Vol 4 by Petrov and Guest 2002
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/rs4-book.jpg)
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php)
No.
I have toyed with buying this one it is a little pricey.
Edit:
Never seen the USA distributor before now that is in my price range. All the books I have seen before are all about $400.00 $ 65.00 is doable. :aok
http://www.malhobby.com/
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No.
I have toyed with buying this one it is a little pricey.
$39 is too pricey?
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$39 is too pricey?
See above. :D
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No.
I have toyed with buying this one it is a little pricey.
Edit:
Never seen the USA distributor before now that is in my price range. All the books I have seen before are all about $400.00 $ 65.00 is doable. :aok
http://www.malhobby.com/
Mr. Edgar Seay Sr. passed away in 2010 at the age of 100 the book store was what kept him going. His son was running it. Lemme know what ya find out.
amazon has them used for 400+ :eek:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/952502623X/ref=dp_olp_used/192-8716432-9765627?ie=UTF8&condition=used (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/952502623X/ref=dp_olp_used/192-8716432-9765627?ie=UTF8&condition=used)
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It's debatable whether or not the P-63 saw combat against the Japanese. The story varies depending on the 'source'. Some sources state that one Ki-43 from the IJAAF was shot down by a Soviet P-63, other sources state it was a Ki-27 or Ki-43 from either the Manchukuo Imperial Air Force or the National Government of China Air Force of the Reorganized National Government of China (Inner Mongolia Japanese puppet government). Some accounts also state the action took place over Manchuria, others state Mongolia or over what is now North Korea.
Would be nice to actually see some sort of official record of the account.
ack-ack
I would like a better as well.
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P-63 performance...
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-63/p-63-chart-bell-1400.jpg)
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Umm, you do know that wiki is not always the most reliable source. I'm not saying that this is wrong, only that it is wise to take all wiki entries with a grain of salt. At least double, or triple check their statements.
Wikipedia is a much more reliable source than icepac :lol
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F8F related....
(http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/5k6mq4vl6o1xwui7/images/6-35ae7db709.jpg)
(http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/5k6mq4vl6o1xwui7/images/7-58eebc9f42.jpg)
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(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8917/tz0u1uchww5udq8fg.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1d9b/stm1vdsvfh9ri1lfg.jpg)
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Edit:
Any one have this book... I believe it to have info on P-63's in the west against Germany.. It is extremely expensive here and writtin in Russian....Kilo, Lyric, Motherland, Wmaker?
Red Stars Vol 4 by Petrov and Guest 2002
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/rs4-book.jpg)
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php)
Well, the book with that particular cover is published by a Finnish publishing house and written mostly in English (captions are bilingual, Finnish/English). I'm not aware of any editions in Russian. As a general note, there are a lot of people who try to sell (mostly out of print - of course) books at Amazon.com as "collectibles" with totally ridiculous prizes. It was ~40 euros in Finnish book store chain a while ago (now it is said to be unavailable there).
On to the info,
Geust & Petrov mention that a handful of Kingcobras joined VVS regiments in the ETO. For example 6 GIAK's 67 GIAP used six of them in the Berlin operation. In the Manchurian campaign, several regiments of the Soviet Pacific Fleet were equipped with Kingcobras.
(Personally, I think P-63 should right at the bottom of the list as far as inclusion to the game goes due to the reasons already pointed out in various threads.)
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As for the performance, the Bell's own figures indeed show over 380mph on the deck. Francis Dean in his AHT-book considers these figures as "optimistic" as "manufacture's figures can to be". Flight testing by the Air Force showed clearly lesser performance.
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Wikipedia is a much more reliable source than icepac :lol
:lol
I regret eating spaghetti letters while reading that :rofl
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It saw action against the Japanese
Edit:
Any one have this book... I believe it to have info on P-63's in the west against Germany.. It is extremely expensive here and writtin in Russian....Kilo, Lyric, Motherland, Wmaker?
Red Stars Vol 4 by Petrov and Guest 2002
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/rs4-book.jpg)
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php)
I have the book, It shows plenty of photos of the P-63, including skins, my best translation says the 17th IAP Fighter unit flew P-63s in combat and shot down one aircraft - captain Vyacheslav Sirotin is credited with an Ki-43 Oscar. It appears quite a few units were being refitted with the P-63, interestingly around the battle of berlin many soviet units didn't have time to transition, rather they just kept fighting with what they had.
Most of the King Cobras flew combat air support for its amphibious operations in the Sakhalin Islands and attacked enemy shipping (mostly barges).
I have to look if I have any memoirs around for Capt. Sirotin, however my best answer is I can account for what Russian units flew P-63s and I can credibly say they flew in combat. I know what units flew and who flew them.
Here's the problem everyone faces - when Operation August storm started, the Japanese had no FUEL or resources left, basically the King Cobra flew into combat against any opposition, that doesn't rule out the fact it flew in combat, rather in just one week period the 17 IAP for example only ran into two aircraft total with one being a victory.
It fits the criteria to be added in Aces high, It flew in combat (doesnt matter how weak the Manchuria opposition was).
There are a few Squadrons of P63s that flew in full strength during August storm.
Edited:
Here's a problem I now have, I cannot find any memoirs of captain Vyacheslav Sirotin, or anyone in 17 IAP (not uncommon among soviets), for me I have no supporting evidence other then "hearsay". However I do believe what is written is true, the attack on barges make sense and the landings at Sakhalin Islands put the 17 IAP in that area for air combat patrol.
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Ack-Ack will be along shortly with the dozens of different versions of the aerial victory story that are out there.
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Sorry Wide, At the time I asked for the book I was just learning about it, I realize now that the author Carl Geust is Finnish and that he has written many books about Russian planes. Red stars 7 I believe is his latest about the winter war 39 and 40. I have been able to acquire 1,2,3, and 5. The book store is also the publishing house?
I think people mistake support for a plane as "I need it right now" I don't believe I ever said anything to that effect. I am 1 of those that fly the 39D regular and would like to try out it's bigger brother. I am just making the case for its inclusion, as the standard response was "It never saw combat".... Well that's just not the case it fought two fronts.
I mentioned a fella that got shot down in the P-63 thread. The man is famous for being captured then escaping by stealing an HE111 with a V1 <is is said to have been a V1... but rocket steering equipment was found in the plane possible a Hs 293> under the wing. He escaped with 9 others as well. He was the only one that new how to fly in the group. What is not to well published is what plane he was flying when he was shot down.
Mikhail Devyatayev
http://parisgun.com/escape-mikhail-devyatayev/
I moved most of the info I posted in this thread to Vinkman's P-63 thread in the wish list.... as this thread gets lost.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,352698.0.html
:cheers: and thanx for confirming the info U to Butcher.
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Apali is the publishing house (http://www.apali.fi/ (http://www.apali.fi/)). The book store chain is a different company (www.suomalainen.com (http://www.suomalainen.com)).
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Apali is the publishing house (http://www.apali.fi/ (http://www.apali.fi/)). The book store chain is a different company (www.suomalainen.com (http://www.suomalainen.com)).
My mistake I thought they sold the books from there too....
http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_catalog.php?c=12 (http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_catalog.php?c=12)
:cheers:
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Mikhail Devyatayev
http://parisgun.com/escape-mikhail-devyatayev/
Man that is kick ass, stuff like that Is why I try so hard to research the stuff I do, only thing I question is the JULY 1944 date on the P-63, I can't find any luck getting any information on P-63 units until the battle of Berlin.