Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Cjpedrido on August 19, 2013, 12:19:56 AM
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I am a Bomber Pilot...like many of us we are frustrated with the Darbar Warning System.
We spend almost 60 minutes or more climbing to the highest altitude and across as many sectors as possible to attain this feat.
Our efforts are all in vain because the opposition "sees" us coming way before we are even close. Everyone understands HT initiates as many side balancing rules as possible. Darbar is one of these "balancing" rules.
But it really is a significant disadvantage to Buff Pilots and a significant advantage to defending fighters. So how is this fair or balanced?
Get rid of the darbar for bomber pilots.
1SKYDIVE
!Devils *X* Rejects! :rock
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no
Learn to use guns or earn the respect of others enough to gun for you, or escort you.
We cant have phantom bombers shutting everything down all willy nilly.
I enjoy high altitude fighting, and the majority of it comes from escorting bombers.
It promotes combat. I cant approve of anything that discourages combat. :devil
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Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuh-no.
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Figure a vtard would ask for this.
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I am a Bomber Pilot...like many of us we are frustrated with the Darbar Warning System.
We spend almost 60 minutes or more climbing to the highest altitude and across as many sectors as possible to attain this feat.
Our efforts are all in vain because the opposition "sees" us coming way before we are even close. Everyone understands HT initiates as many side balancing rules as possible. Darbar is one of these "balancing" rules.
But it really is a significant disadvantage to Buff Pilots and a significant advantage to defending fighters. So how is this fair or balanced?
Get rid of the darbar for bomber pilots.
1SKYDIVE
!Devils *X* Rejects! :rock
Doesn't your bombers come equipped with guns? :rolleyes:
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I like flying and intercepting bombers myself. You can hide your buffs by staying in a sector with low friendly cons and a dar already present. The point of intercepting bombers is before they drop their bombs. Afterwards it is usually a long chase especially if they do their climbing profile. Less bomber pilots seem to bail with ords on board and if they do I feel less frustrated because they do not destroy anything and thus get no points. If you want survivability then a B17 is the way to go.
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Main-BoB-map.jpg)
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Figure a vtard would ask for this.
Not nice....
I agree with others, not my favorite idea.
Get some friends, do the .wingman flight thing, and make an uber-deathstar bomber group. Get some escorts, they work you know...
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no
Learn to use guns or earn the respect of others enough to gun for you, or escort you.
We cant have phantom bombers shutting everything down all willy nilly.
I enjoy high altitude fighting, and the majority of it comes from escorting bombers.
It promotes combat. I cant approve of anything that discourages combat. :devil
This.
The game's rules should promote combat between players, not promote combat being avoided.
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I am a Bomber Pilot...like many of us we are frustrated with the Darbar Warning System.
I am a bomber pilot too, and I am not frustrated with the Darbar warning system (as long as it works, that is)
The request is absurd.
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Nice map GScholz. :aok
I often find an enemy contact an enjoyable break to the bordom of a long strat run. :D
Like others have said Once I dump ords on target I'm up for a fight and disappointed if I never make it to target. (War is Hell) If a fighter gets to me before my target he has done his job. Even if he gets one drone he has effected my damage by 1/3.
163's are deadly only in good hands. Most will zoom in at high speed to avoid guns and a quick maneuver can throw him off and waste his small load of ammo.
Ta 152, P-47, 109's When these fighters get up to you it's trouble and more than likely a pilot that knows how to use them. You don't have many options if you choose to attack deep into enemy airspace unescorted. The Allies found this out the hard way prompting them to use long range escort.
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You climb to absurd heights where auto ack and ground vehicles can't touch you and the only way to have a fair fight is to up a fighter and try to climb up to the height in a short time and you say it's unfair? WOW !!
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Get rid of the darbar for bomber pilots.
1SKYDIVE
!Devils *X* Rejects! :rock
Holy vTardanndos, Batman! My trolldar senses are tingling!!!
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I believe the darbar system is fair. I think it mimics the multiple warning sources employed during the war. They had ground observers, observers on ships, some radar, and inflight observers that would give basically the same information we get, that aircraft are in a given area. Maybe there was more information than what we get, not less. They would probably have known the altitude of the aircraft, the type and the direction also. Even with the darbar system we have, it's not exacly easy to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right aircraft for interception. This darbar system, remember, also gives bombers information about approaching enemy aircraft making it difficult to really sneak up on bombers with interceptors.
I know I am mainly a fighterpuke now but I have done alot of bombing in the past and I never thought the system was unfair then. If I may humbly suggest, bomber pilots could learn alot about how to survive an interception by flying interception's them selves. Conversly, fighter pilots who want to learn bomber interception will learn alot by flying a bomber and observing what makes a good interception.
I see alot of posts that are really asking to make the game easier and I understand, that as a new guy there is alot to learn and a price to pay for that education. After you have "learned" the different aspects of the game, then it is the challenge of using those skills in a difficult game that has a reward for excellence.
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My only complaint about dar bar is that it works in the middle of the ocean. It seems to me it should only work within a sector or two of land, really a non issue, just a detail. As far as advantage bomber advantage fighter I'd say a bomber is always at a disadvantage to the more skilled fighter pilots but against a lot of players a B17 clipping along at 30 k has a lot going for it. I think your odds are worse if you bomb hq or the strats when they are near hq as rocket aces are pretty deadly although zapping one 163 compensates for a lot busted flights.
As a side note I'd like to see guys that up a strat mission with three or more formations and a fighter get some perks just for organizing and committing the time. Last time I saw one a bunch of people were defending. Stimulates an infrequent kind of game play in the LWA.
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They had ground observers, observers on ships, some radar, and inflight observers that would give basically the same information we get, that aircraft are in a given area.
Some valid points I hadn't considered... :headscratch:
I do agree that a small tweek may be in order, however. I just have a hard time understanding, especially on larger maps with more distance between "front lines" and the relatively safe rear (HQ & Strategic Factories), why the enemy countries have the ability to see a radar bar as deep into enemy territory as we see in the MA. I can watch a large strat raid coming for 40 minutes... Granted that allows time for a defensive, but it seems somewhat unfair to the buff pilot to immediately indicate to the other two teams that a climb out is occurring.
Personally, as per the drawing posted above, I would like to see a two tiered radar system in place which only extends a certain distance beyond the "front line" bases. The first tier indicates lower-level aircraft (200ft - 25k ft), and a second further reaching high altitude radar indicator (25k-Space). This would still allow a country to have an understanding of the enemy aircraft's intent as they enter friendly airspace, high alt dar bar flashing, seems to be buffs carrying through to targets deep in friendly territory.... Dar bar is standard and huge, looks like our front line base(s) are under attack, SCRAMBLE!
The only part I'm having trouble explaining is the implementation.... Do we have two distinct dar bars indicating high or low alt contacts? Also I'm not sure what would be an acceptable range fro the low and high alt dars to extend.... I'm assuming that these distances would be a function of the map size, as well as, distance between initial front line bases.
:rock :neener:
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I can watch a large strat raid coming for 40 minutes... Granted that allows time for a defensive, but it seems somewhat unfair to the buff pilot to immediately indicate to the other two teams that a climb out is occurring.
Considering the frequency with which it's done, is it really that big of a deal? I've rarely seen more than a half dozen guys straggling up to attempt a defense even though the bardar's been visible and called out on country for half an hour. In actual gameplay, the vast majority don't generally take notice of a bardar until it's over friendly territory, then they either up 163's or take off, see how high the buffs are, and go find something else to do.
I think it's a non-issue considering the number of people who actually use the bar dar and actually intercept buff missions. Additionally, one unescorted bomber should be a death ride, not a free shot at the strats if it stays out of the dar circles.
Wiley.
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So in other words you want to make a Milk Run? :rolleyes:
I'm also a bomber pilot but expect to be intercepted by fighters and practice my gunning. :D
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So in other words you want to make a Milk Run? :rolleyes:
I'm also a bomber pilot but expect to be intercepted by fighters and practice my gunning. :D
I don't mind the interception at all, I love gunning down little pests in my B-17 just as much as the next pilot :banana:... I just thought that it may be a little unbalanced in favor of seeing "unseeable aircraft" while they are still deep within their own territory .
I do agree with you Wiley in that most defenders don't organize a defensive as a unit but rather sporadically up fighters to intercept. Meh :neener: I just thought it was a very interesting concept which may be worth exploring... :devil
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I have escorted many smart bomber raids to the strats that make a feint that at the very least, cast some doubt as to their intended target. I wish there were more frankly as I really do enjoy escorting buffs to a strat raid. For me, that's actually more fun than the defense. The reward for this is the fun of helping the buffers get to their target and get home because I normally don't get the same number of kills as I do defending the strats. Not all strat raids are going to have 163's as sometimes the strats are forward of the 163 bases and just too far to get to with a 163. I think this is when you buffers should really get big missions organized to the strats. On that note, anytime you want escorts please PM me and make sure you tell me this is going to happen, if you are Knights anyway :)
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I understand the frustration. However, I suggest you obtain the services of a fighter escort or two.
With everything being said, I do however think that an experiment in having a delay in the radar bar wouldn't be a bad idea. It certainly adds a bit of "fog of war", and it forces the interceptor to think twice about going up w/o a drop tank.
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In actual gameplay, the vast majority don't generally take notice of a bardar until it's over friendly territory
Now ain't that the truth
t-40 Huge darbar spotted, forming over enemy high alt base. First general alert given
t-20 Enemy multi-sector darbar slowly creeping towards the strats. One or two interceptors have upped and give detailed info about force composition, heading and altitude. Nothing happens
t-10 The already long identified strat raid passes over some friendly bases on his way to the factory. For the first time there is some frantic activity:
"ALERT A30... get supps out! Run supps to the town!" Wirbels appear on the base, vainly firing at the 27K B-17s overhead. Finally a number of fighter try to intercept... taking off behind the enemy high alt raid, from the base that just had been overflown
t-0 The factories are getting smashed. "Hordelings! Alt-monkeys! No way anybody could intercept this!"
t+10 "Need resuppers for the strats!" :bhead
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Now ain't that the truth
t-40 Huge darbar spotted, forming over enemy high alt base. First general alert given
t-20 Enemy multi-sector darbar slowly creeping towards the strats. One or two interceptors have upped and give detailed info about force composition, heading and altitude. Nothing happens
t-10 The already long identified strat raid passes over some friendly bases on his way to the factory. For the first time there is some frantic activity:
"ALERT A30... get supps out! Run supps to the town!" Wirbels appear on the base, vainly firing at the 27K B-17s overhead. Finally a number of fighter try to intercept... taking off behind the enemy high alt raid, from the base that just had been overflown
t-0 The factories are getting smashed. "Hordelings! Alt-monkeys! No way anybody could intercept this!"
t+10 "Need resuppers for the strats!" :bhead
Dead on. And the worst part about it is, it's pretty much the same every time.
Wiley.
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I had a Spit XIV up from a base as my Mossie XVI passed overhead at 28,000ft. I watched him try to catch me for the next 35 minutes as I wandered around Bishland bombing their towns. He never got closer than 3000 yards or so, most of it made up of altitude between me and him. I wondered if he had any idea how futile his intercept plot was from the moment he spawned?
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Now ain't that the truth
t-40 Huge darbar spotted, forming over enemy high alt base. First general alert given
t-20 Enemy multi-sector darbar slowly creeping towards the strats. One or two interceptors have upped and give detailed info about force composition, heading and altitude. Nothing happens
t-10 The already long identified strat raid passes over some friendly bases on his way to the factory. For the first time there is some frantic activity:
"ALERT A30... get supps out! Run supps to the town!" Wirbels appear on the base, vainly firing at the 27K B-17s overhead. Finally a number of fighter try to intercept... taking off behind the enemy high alt raid, from the base that just had been overflown
t-0 The factories are getting smashed. "Hordelings! Alt-monkeys! No way anybody could intercept this!"
t+10 "Need resuppers for the strats!" :bhead
oh man I missed it. How fun to spent 20 or 30 minutes getting in position to die to buff guns. Please let me know next time. I do not want to miss out on that!!!
What you guys see as people being too dumb to understand whats happening, it is really people having fun doing something else :old:
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My only question is why is there no radar actually covering the strats? on each map the strats are devoid of radar coverage. For that matter, it should be one pilot, one plane. I'd like to see it like AW had it, you needed a crew to man the guns. Those bomber mission in AW were fun. With 10 man crews in B17's. winging together.
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What you guys see as people being too dumb to understand whats happening, it is really people having fun doing something else :old:
So sitting in a Wirbel under a 27k strat raid is "having fun doing something else"? And so is taking off in a fighter from a field that's just been passed by that raid and tail chasing it for sectors instead of taking off from a high-alt base near their target?
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For that matter, it should be one pilot, one plane. I'd like to see it like AW had it, you needed a crew to man the guns. Those bomber mission in AW were fun. With 10 man crews in B17's. winging together.
How many players would have a chance to ever get a full crew manning their bomber?
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I can sum this up, "I don't wanna die, I don't wanna die, I dont WAAAANNNNNNAAAAAAAA DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
Never been a better time for bombers. You get to 30k, the wind keeps the fighters at bay. Meanwhile you get to bomb with laser like precision. All good for high alt Bombers.
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You get to 30k, the wind keeps the fighters at bay.
How so?
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How so?
When you attack from high alt on bombers the winds or maybe back draft of the bombers causes the fighters to veer. Hence you only light ping them most of the time.
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When you attack from high alt on bombers the winds or maybe back draft of the bombers causes the fighters to veer. Hence you only light ping them most of the time.
I have never noticed anything like that, and I still hunt very high alt bombers quite a lot.
You and the bomber are moving in the same layer of wind at 30k, and so it effects both planes the same way.
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I have never noticed anything like that, and I still hunt very high alt bombers quite a lot.
You and the bomber are moving in the same layer of wind at 30k, and so it effects both planes the same way.
Hmm, I know I'm having problems veering off as I attack. Doesn't happen at low alt. What are you attacking them in?
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Hmm, I know I'm having problems veering off as I attack. Doesn't happen at low alt. What are you attacking them in?
Mostly 163, 109k, P-51B, Ta 152h (especially when hunting very high buffs)
I could imagine such an effect when diving down on a bomber at a reasonable lower (15-25k) altitude, as you then may cross one or even several layers. But then, I really haven't noticed any effect trhat would throw me off. Above 28k however, there is no such thing, as that is the final layer and both bomber and fighter are moving in it all the time.
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Mostly 163, 109k, P-51B, Ta 152h (especially when hunting very high buffs)
I could imagine such an effect when diving down on a bomber at a reasonable lower (15-25k) altitude, as you then may cross one or even several layers. But then, I really haven't noticed any effect trhat would throw me off. Above 28k however, there is no such thing, as that is the final layer and both bomber and fighter are moving in it all the time.
makes me wonder about my calibration. Been having problems forever. Still though doesn't happen at low alt.
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How many players would have a chance to ever get a full crew manning their bomber?
We seemed to be able to do it in AW.. The pilot also had to option as did crew to jump to different positions. But I remember flying as a crew member on many a large scale bombing mission with 9 other guys in the same plane.
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We seemed to be able to do it in AW.. The pilot also had to option as did crew to jump to different positions. But I remember flying as a crew member on many a large scale bombing mission with 9 other guys in the same plane.
I was also told by guys flying AW that it was also difficult there to get that many gunners for the 'average' players. Of course, I can't really comment on that for lack of personal experience.
But I do know that the standard player without years of play to make friends will never get enough gunners to make it worthwile. Even getting just one gunner can be a problem at times, especially if you expect him to have some minimum degree of skill level.
New players could totally forget getting their bomber's crewed adequately.
I think the AH solution (slaved guns, formation) is quite a good one for balance.
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I was also told by guys flying AW that it was also difficult there to get that many gunners for the 'average' players. Of course, I can't really comment on that for lack of personal experience.
But I do know that the standard player without years of play to make friends will never get enough gunners to make it worthwile. Even getting just one gunner can be a problem at times, especially if you expect him to have some minimum degree of skill level.
New players could totally forget getting their bomber's crewed adequately.
I think the AH solution (slaved guns, formation) is quite a good one for balance.
I disagree, I do have actual AW experience, a lot of new players in AW crewed bombers and by doing so made friends and earned invites to squads. I also crewed for new bomber pilots in AW, so based on my experience your statement about New Players is just wrong and not based in fact. Just because you state it, does not make it so. At least not based on my experience in AW.
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I disagree, I do have actual AW experience, a lot of new players in AW crewed bombers and by doing so made friends and earned invites to squads. I also crewed for new bomber pilots in AW, so based on my experience your statement about New Players is just wrong and not based in fact. Just because you state it, does not make it so.
I was also told by guys flying AW that it was also difficult there to get that many gunners for the 'average' players. Of course, I can't really comment on that for lack of personal experience.
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I disagree, I do have actual AW experience, a lot of new players in AW crewed bombers and by doing so made friends and earned invites to squads. I also crewed for new bomber pilots in AW, so based on my experience your statement about New Players is just wrong and not based in fact. Just because you state it, does not make it so. At least not based on my experience in AW.
I did fly AW and unless you were a known player or a squadmate it was tough to load a buff full.
Also the way the game is played today most people won't gun for anyone else. Hitech has said it was a one or the othere thing too. Either we have formations, or we have multi gunner singles. I personally like having more guns slaved together than MAYBE getting a full load of gunners.
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I did fly AW and unless you were a known player or a squadmate it was tough to load a buff full.
Also the way the game is played today most people won't gun for anyone else. Hitech has said it was a one or the othere thing too. Either we have formations, or we have multi gunner singles. I personally like having more guns slaved together than MAYBE getting a full load of gunners.
I guess my problem with the "combat simulation" as it is, is with the slaved guns. That just doesn't simulate any combat that I'm aware of in WWII. I'd rather see one pilot, one aircraft with AI gunners as crew than what is currently done.
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So sitting in a Wirbel under a 27k strat raid is "having fun doing something else"? And so is taking off in a fighter from a field that's just been passed by that raid and tail chasing it for sectors instead of taking off from a high-alt base near their target?
I guess the 3 guys you saw represent the arena? I see darbar I take off. I have no clue if it is a buf formation or at what alt. I probably just died ,and looking for the next fight. If you think people have the time to waste to sit there and study the map for 10 minutes and then climb and position for another 20 or 30 you are fooling yourself.
That Wirbel might have spawned for duf reasons, could be a new guy, etc. It was just one right? When u see 20 of them doing it I ll agree with you
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Thank you for fully proving my point.
Of course, you didn't get what the point was, but thank you nevertheless :P
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I have dozens of sorties as a lone bomber formation making it to target including strats. The radar range has increased from what it was in the past. Perhaps shrinking the range in MW or EW arenas.(early war radar technology weaker) It may motivate some to populate those arenas more for their unseen attacks.
But until then CHECK SIX!
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv15/d0nwaters/DGS2-b17.png) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/d0nwaters/media/DGS2-b17.png.html)
I don't think I have enough ammo.......... :uhoh
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv15/d0nwaters/DGS2-3-p38-2.png) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/d0nwaters/media/DGS2-3-p38-2.png.html)
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Thank you for fully proving my point.
Of course, you didn't get what the point was, but thank you nevertheless :P
well duh. What did you expect? I cant even read a darbar
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My only question is why is there no radar actually covering the strats? on each map the strats are devoid of radar coverage. For that matter, it should be one pilot, one plane. I'd like to see it like AW had it, you needed a crew to man the guns. Those bomber mission in AW were fun. With 10 man crews in B17's. winging together.
Getting offtopic but one pilot, one plane and a crew to man the guns would be a great experience in a scenario where the side balance can be controlled. I would like to be a gunner for a buff in such a scenario to get some of the feeling of how it was like. I don`t think this would work in the main arena because the chance of having 9 available gunners when you need them is pretty slim. Even some of the well known players and leaders do not get a single gunner sometimes. Sitting as a gunner for the entire mission seems like a wasted time because all you do is wait. I could be the left side gunner and the enemy attacks from high right. The bomber could be shot down before I could even fire a single round.
The choice of taking a single manned buff instead of 9 fighter bombers does not seem like a choice at all. Shure it would be fun sometimes, but bombers would become a rare sight in the game imho.
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I am a Bomber Pilot...like many of us we are frustrated with the Darbar Warning System.
We spend almost 60 minutes or more climbing to the highest altitude and across as many sectors as possible to attain this feat.
Our efforts are all in vain because the opposition "sees" us coming way before we are even close. Everyone understands HT initiates as many side balancing rules as possible. Darbar is one of these "balancing" rules.
But it really is a significant disadvantage to Buff Pilots and a significant advantage to defending fighters. So how is this fair or balanced?
Get rid of the darbar for bomber pilots.
1SKYDIVE
!Devils *X* Rejects! :rock
Buffs are supposed to have gunners and escort fighters. The 8th USAAF didn't think it was fair and balanced either, especially before the p51d came along.
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Main-BoB-map.jpg)
*spews tea*
Was the last BoB so bad for the allies that we're giving you guys a radar tower halfway to Paris?...
@ the OP: You have a problem as a bomber pilot with darbar, well how convenient is this, you're in a position to resolve it. The enemy HQ, bomb it. /thread
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The British "high-level" radar worked pretty much as darbar in AH and could only estimate the number of enemy aircraft in a rather large area, and only at altitude. "Low-level" radar would be similar to dot-radar in AH.
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I guess the 3 guys you saw represent the arena? I see darbar I take off. I have no clue if it is a buf formation or at what alt. I probably just died ,and looking for the next fight. If you think people have the time to waste to sit there and study the map for 10 minutes and then climb and position for another 20 or 30 you are fooling yourself.
The 'studying' for me generally occurs on climbout and/or RTB virtually no time wasted in tower. I just don't understand why the people who don't have the time to 'waste' climbing out will waste the time upping under a 20k buff mission and either try to trail it or give up and RTB. To me that seems more of a waste of time than using the information to set up properly for them.
*shrug*
Wiley.
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The 'studying' for me generally occurs on climbout and/or RTB virtually no time wasted in tower. I just don't understand why the people who don't have the time to 'waste' climbing out will waste the time upping under a 20k buff mission and either try to trail it or give up and RTB. To me that seems more of a waste of time than using the information to set up properly for them.
*shrug*
Wiley.
you climb out then study dar? How do you know what direction to go?
I m not saying no one does what you describe. I m saying it is probably a couple of guys and the reason could be many other than what you guys think.
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you climb out then study dar? How do you know what direction to go?
Obviously I look for the fight before I launch. :neener: I was talking about the looking for oddball stuff like large bardars taking off from further back, or checking to see what's going on in other places when people call out alerts or whatever. The stuff that's not right in front of your nose when you look at the map.
All I was observing was there's usually about a half dozen people or so on who suddenly go spastic when the large blob of red stuff that's been coming to the field it's attacking for 2 or 3 sectors gets on dot dar, up into the vulch, and die.
Then quite often comes the recriminations and gnashing of teeth because 'nobody helped at field x'.
I agree with you, most people are having fun doing other stuff. Not very many defend as a rule. It just seems to me there is a subset that sort of kind of tries to defend, but does it in a wholly ineffectual way.
Wiley.