Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: shoresroad on August 22, 2013, 04:48:41 AM
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I had an epiphany the other day. Actually, another player brought it to my attention. As some of you know I started a new squad several weeks ago with the idea of flying bomber groups with escort fighters into the Strats to create high altitude furballs (I love a realistic bomber interception defended by escorts).
And we've had some good turnouts for the pickup missions, except we're having problems retaining escorts for future missions. We throw a big darbar and attract LOTS of interceptors. We have had some great furballs where the bomber formations are knocking down the 163's and 262's that blow by the escorts (one mission we shot down three 163's and one 262). Our escorts seem to fair as well as the prop interceptors (giving as good as they take) and we're bringing about 50% of everybody home (bomber and escort pilots).
The interceptors are always there when we throw a big darbar (I assume for the potential bomber nom-noms), but many of our escorts won't go back the next night or later that week. We had one excellent squad escort us one night and I thought they did great, but when I asked the CO if they wanted to do it again several nights later he gave me this candid answer: "Can't fight up there! Planes handle completely differently. I can hunt bombers up there, but dog fighting is a different story. We were struggling. We'll work on it and have another go at it some time in the future."
"Up there" was 25k.
Maybe we just haven't found the right guys yet. But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?" I'm not asking this sarcastically, but as an honest question. The CO's response took me by surprise because they are Pony and P-47 guys with a number of Top 100 and 200 pilots in their squad. They are good sticks and those planes were designed to fight up there.
Am I looking for the 3 horned unicorn in looking for escort pilots with 25k dog fighting skills? I'm a mediocre fighter pilot and admit is it more difficult up there, but I just assumed the full time fighter guys in the high alt design planes would have dog fighting wired up there.
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We usually always fly at 15K or above. We would like to keep it at 20 and above, but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck :( If high flying escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side. :salute
Saturday afternoons there's usually anywhere from 7 to 15 of us on.
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We usually always fly at 15K or above but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck :( If high aly escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side. :salute
the reason we can't find hi alt fighters is the rooks are the hi-alt sticks :D
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While I have been flying for the Rooks I have done a number of escort missions across the map, flying at high altitudes will be alien to many MA players that have not gone through FSOs or scenarios where high alt combat is guaranteed. The MA is typically, (fighter on fighter) from the deck to 15k, trying to fight over that is a rarity for many players.
Zach has a point though; Rooks, over the ages, have become synonymous with flying higher than any other AcesHigh country, might be worth rotating away from the bishops to get what you want.
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It's up to you of course, Badger, but some of the best high alt missions I have ever been on was in escort of DHBG against rooks. Rooks usually do not defend, and even when they do it's a poor defense (it used to be much better just a few years ago). Knits will hit you with everything they have.
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But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?"
In my experience, yes. The vast majority of people flop like fish if they get pressed over 20k. I think that is pretty much the largest contributor to the "see co-alt bandit and split-S 12k feet under him" school of ACM. The fight most are comfortable with is low. Most are only at alt hoping to have the E advantage on whatever they may find. To be fair, it is a different style of fighting up there altogether.
Heh... one of the things that made me laugh the hardest in this game was a squaddie and I were cruising at 22k or so headed into a bunch of red dots on dar. He called out a "pony on the deck". I saw the bandit and did some rough trigonometry by the angle he was at... "Buddy, he's at least 10k."
Wiley.
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We usually always fly at 15K or above. We would like to keep it at 20 and above, but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck :( If high flying escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side. :salute
Saturday afternoons there's usually anywhere from 7 to 15 of us on.
Flying at that alt might as well bring back trinity map......
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I think a lot of folks, myself included, would rather spend the time flying to a fight and engaging at medium alts rather than spend the extra 10 minutes climbing to 20K-25K to get to the same fight.
Yes, most folks don't know how to fly and fight at those high alts. It's very apparent in scenarios, where you'll have fighters going to 30K and expecting to maneuver like they were at 10K.
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I think a lot of folks, myself included, would rather spend the time flying to a fight and engaging at medium alts rather than spend the extra 10 minutes climbing to 20K-25K to get to the same fight.
Yes, most folks don't know how to fly and fight at those high alts. It's very apparent in scenarios, where you'll have fighters going to 30K and expecting to maneuver like they were at 10K.
Both personality types can co-exist in the MA. If they are flying in the MA to hone skill and bide time until the next event then some high alt encounters (specifically escort vs. intercept) couldn't hurt. If they are not into events and want the most engagements possible when logged on, then high alt to them would be considered a waste of time. Honestly, each could scratch the others backs by occasionally jumping the fence to give some numbers to one experience or the other (for however long they can stand it).
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I find a lot of guys don't feel the need to look above the horizon when they fly at 30k.
It's great when you can turn off your engines and dive from 40k on them.
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When I played I was quite the High-Alt fighter, if I do say so myself. I regularly broke 8k when climbing out, I know, I know... I'm a bit of an alt tard but, hey!
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Badger, you've flown with me and already know I live for the high altitude stuff. If you are not Knights then you have my pity. If you are Knights then please let me know anytime you are going to to a High alt buff run. I will be there everytime.
I don't mind fighting on the deck, I'm just not going to start there. :) :joystick: :airplane:
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I personally don't mind wasting a hour and a half escorting bombers but that's me I have the time to do it. I think your running into the, I only have three hours to play and do i want to waste half that time for 2 kills or do i want to fly at 10k with 5 times the amount of fights. Oh and on a side note its always funny as hell to me when I encounter someone at 25k in my FM2 and the first thing they do is dive for the deck :rofl
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Was in a "fight" between 25-30k in F4U-1A against a Spit16, wasn't exactly graceful. Scenarios are the only time I've been up that high for extended fights.
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POTW realized along time ago combat 20k and above was not an individual affair because of the slim margins related to MACH numbers and stall in the thinner air. Just like the 56th knows you need a team to control the airspace and account for the eventual high alt mistakes that happen during maneuvering. I learned high alt combat from the old 56th under Nomde and passed that on to the POTW.
The higher you go, the slower you maneuver closer to the edge of a stall and need all the WEP you have. Then your wingman having learned to stay just inside of 2000yds from you becomes your salvation. Because he is just close enough to kill the con who just floundered with you into your stall mistake. Errr...sorry, your brilliant last moment high alt ACM strategy.
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I had an epiphany the other day. Actually, another player brought it to my attention. As some of you know I started a new squad several weeks ago with the idea of flying bomber groups with escort fighters into the Strats to create high altitude furballs (I love a realistic bomber interception defended by escorts).
And we've had some good turnouts for the pickup missions, except we're having problems retaining escorts for future missions. We throw a big darbar and attract LOTS of interceptors. We have had some great furballs where the bomber formations are knocking down the 163's and 262's that blow by the escorts (one mission we shot down three 163's and one 262). Our escorts seem to fair as well as the prop interceptors (giving as good as they take) and we're bringing about 50% of everybody home (bomber and escort pilots).
The interceptors are always there when we throw a big darbar (I assume for the potential bomber nom-noms), but many of our escorts won't go back the next night or later that week. We had one excellent squad escort us one night and I thought they did great, but when I asked the CO if they wanted to do it again several nights later he gave me this candid answer: "Can't fight up there! Planes handle completely differently. I can hunt bombers up there, but dog fighting is a different story. We were struggling. We'll work on it and have another go at it some time in the future."
"Up there" was 25k.
Maybe we just haven't found the right guys yet. But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?" I'm not asking this sarcastically, but as an honest question. The CO's response took me by surprise because they are Pony and P-47 guys with a number of Top 100 and 200 pilots in their squad. They are good sticks and those planes were designed to fight up there.
Am I looking for the 3 horned unicorn in looking for escort pilots with 25k dog fighting skills? I'm a mediocre fighter pilot and admit is it more difficult up there, but I just assumed the full time fighter guys in the high alt design planes would have dog fighting wired up there.
:airplane: I wasn't going to comment on this post, as I thought you were directing it at some other country besides the Rooks, but what the heck? I am ET37, commander, 94th Bomb Group, (Devil Dogs), and I make a point of flying at least one high altitude mission every week. I have been for the last month or so, insisting on B-29's, as long as people have the bomber points for them. I only post the mission with out checking the formation box, so if an player doesn't have the points for a 3 a/c element, they usually have enough for one a/c. I always take a formation, I just spawn out on the runway which I have posted in the mission and wait until it launches.
Now, we have had some really good fights from 30K down to 10K while on these missions and the folks really enjoy them.
I would love to have a standing arrangement with some Knight or Bishop group to meet one night a week at 28 to 32K, complete with bombers, to have some high altitude fights! Great fun :salute
One other note you might want to make: Every Tuesday night at 9PM, EST, in MLW arena, I will be posting a big mission as I have described above, so watch for the dar bar and come running! (Now, I won't promise that we will always be in bombers, as I can box and step climb my formations to where you think it is bombers, but might be 262's, 51D's and 47M's, so if interested in a high altitude fight, just PM me and we will work out the dualing ground).
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Both personality types can co-exist in the MA. If they are flying in the MA to hone skill and bide time until the next event then some high alt encounters (specifically escort vs. intercept) couldn't hurt. If they are not into events and want the most engagements possible when logged on, then high alt to them would be considered a waste of time. Honestly, each could scratch the others backs by occasionally jumping the fence to give some numbers to one experience or the other (for however long they can stand it).
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I believe it's primarily related to available time for playing the game.
When I played AW, I would routinely be above 20K. I also had a lot of time to do nothing but play AW in 1995. Now it's hard for me to dedicate a Saturday afternoon for a scenario, let alone more than a couple of hours on any particular night. I don't think I'm a minority with this though.
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If you know how to high altitude-dogfight, calling it high-altitude furballing is a huuuge misnomer.
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I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I believe it's primarily related to available time for playing the game.
When I played AW, I would routinely be above 20K. I also had a lot of time to do nothing but play AW in 1995. Now it's hard for me to dedicate a Saturday afternoon for a scenario, let alone more than a couple of hours on any particular night. I don't think I'm a minority with this though.
Last night I was very tired and found myself never climbing higher than 10-12k at most before entering a fight, the result was I died a lot more, but I did get to the action sooner.
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A mission at high alt does sound fun. An hour and a half? I wish I could devote that kind of time to a mission. This is becoming my biggest issue is The time needed to actually play. I love it. When I can I get immersed in the game. When I look up an hour has gone by. I plan on upping in a mission add fighter support when I can. It's sounds like a blast!! Peace
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I had an epiphany the other day. Actually, another player brought it to my attention. As some of you know I started a new squad several weeks ago with the idea of flying bomber groups with escort fighters into the Strats to create high altitude furballs (I love a realistic bomber interception defended by escorts).
And we've had some good turnouts for the pickup missions, except we're having problems retaining escorts for future missions. We throw a big darbar and attract LOTS of interceptors. We have had some great furballs where the bomber formations are knocking down the 163's and 262's that blow by the escorts (one mission we shot down three 163's and one 262). Our escorts seem to fair as well as the prop interceptors (giving as good as they take) and we're bringing about 50% of everybody home (bomber and escort pilots).
The interceptors are always there when we throw a big darbar (I assume for the potential bomber nom-noms), but many of our escorts won't go back the next night or later that week. We had one excellent squad escort us one night and I thought they did great, but when I asked the CO if they wanted to do it again several nights later he gave me this candid answer: "Can't fight up there! Planes handle completely differently. I can hunt bombers up there, but dog fighting is a different story. We were struggling. We'll work on it and have another go at it some time in the future."
"Up there" was 25k.
Maybe we just haven't found the right guys yet. But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?" I'm not asking this sarcastically, but as an honest question. The CO's response took me by surprise because they are Pony and P-47 guys with a number of Top 100 and 200 pilots in their squad. They are good sticks and those planes were designed to fight up there.
Am I looking for the 3 horned unicorn in looking for escort pilots with 25k dog fighting skills? I'm a mediocre fighter pilot and admit is it more difficult up there, but I just assumed the full time fighter guys in the high alt design planes would have dog fighting wired up there.
When do you guys usually fly?
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I think that fighting at high altitude is very different from lower altitudes.
I almost never fight at high altitudes in the Main Arena, as I'm generally looking for quicker action there, but there are several scenarios with a lot of high-altitude action (such as the late-war 8th AF ones).
A fight in Der Grosse Schlag II at 32k:
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201210_derGrosseSchlagII/pics/frame1/005-disrupt-SNAG-0006.jpg)
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Thought there were still in Rookland.
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Thanks for everyone's feedback. Sounds like I will just have to be patient in getting things going :)
I looked back over the past 6 months and thought "What do I like to do most in AH?" The answer was I liked Earl's (ET37) Devil Dogs missions when he took them up to high alts. And I liked flying on high altitude hunting missions with Zoney or Bluberry in JG5. And I like flying bombers about 50% of the time, so I created Rough Puppies and Bluberry came over as XO when he found out what I was up to.
Right now we are living on Pickup Missions trying to sell the idea in Bishland and will ultimately end up wherever the interest lies (country wise). We've done pretty well so far in Bishland with bomber pilot interest, but getting the fighter escorts has been harder. Bomber pilots have been game, but selling them on the idea of going in at 25k as a group to start a fight instead of 30k+ to avoid or lessen contact only works so well with formation flying. The other piece of the puzzle is fighter escorts.
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When do you guys usually fly?
Hi Aztec,
I've already sent a PM to Uptown for you guys to have a look at. Living off of Pickup Missions, right now the answer is "Whenever I see enough guys online who will join the mission." I fly 4 or 5 nights a week U.S. prime time. In the long run I'm pretty sure we will find enough players who will like the idea enough to put a proper squad together. I just thought it would be easier to find escort pilots than bomber pilots and it has been the opposite.
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you guys could always ask 999000 to bring his P-17s for escort
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Air spawns at 25k would help. :D
Kind of frustrating to take the time to climb that high, get shot down by bombers and/or escorts and then reclimb that far for some fights. :airplane:
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you guys could always ask 999000 to bring his B-17s for escort
:lol
Actually, I flew past 999000 in a Brewster one day on the way to a furball and asked him for an escort :lol
He laughed, then showed up a few minutes later at the furball and got 2 kills which he landed! I wish I had saved that film of him turning and burning with the rest of us in his B-17 :lol
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^^ Wish you had seen the Troll Patrol missions before 1sum41 joined the Army.
Our High Altitude Storch raids were the most fun.
But yeah I love some escort duty, flying cover for 17's is my favorite part of this game tbh.
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I always jump when I see a mission in the Main arena especially if its above 20k, Thunder eggs usually runs high alt buff missions - they sometimes post the info on 200 when they reach a certain alt. Everytime I would intercept them whether I am in a Ta-152, Bf-109 or Fw-190 just for fun.
most of the escorts tend to be P51s, above alt of 25,000ft (most escorts sit at 30+ while buffs 24+).
Hell I've even brought an F4u-4 once just for kicks, its a totally different world to fight up there, and certainly worth it. My favorite all time was a C.205 fighter sweep at 25k vs Spitfire 8's. I realized I am the village idiot when I ran out of gas 4 sectors away (at 29k) and thought I could glide a spitfire home, I ended up crashing in the ocean a sector away from my base.
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Badger,
I might be able to get some Ak's interested in escorting once in a while. The hardest part is getting interest in an hour long mission, but I just might be able to if the right folks are on. I will check your country status and maybe we can do something.
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The best 1 on 1s Ive ever had have been ones where the entire air column was used. Yaknow, the ones that start at 25k and 1/2 the time you dont know if your going up or down cause it dont matter since you have so much air under you.
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I realized I am the village idiot when I ran out of gas 4 sectors away (at 29k) and thought I could glide a spitfire home, I ended up crashing in the ocean a sector away from my base.
If you have a bunch of altitude, it's best to get the prop stopped for maximum gliding.
The problem is that the props here will windmill down to like 40mph so....if you're not super high, you could burn up precious altitude trying unsuccessfully.
It's well worth it if you can get it to stop and a typhoon glides great with prop stopped while it falls like a rock with it windmilling.
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Badger,
I might be able to get some Ak's interested in escorting once in a while. The hardest part is getting interest in an hour long mission, but I just might be able to if the right folks are on. I will check your country status and maybe we can do something.
The Ak's would be welcome escorts! We certainly have no problem attracting interceptors with the large darbar we usually throw, so the Ak's would see plenty of action :aok
Badger
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in AH, the best high alt fighter is a bomber. Perfect stability, good speed, 1K range in any direction, and made out of titanium. Why bother getting a fighter up there? :headscratch:
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Why bother getting a fighter up there? :headscratch:
To get hundreds of kills :devil
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After reading Icepac's Duel Challenge thread I couldn't resist bumping this thread. Maybe ya'll could compromise and agree to merge at 25k, a very realistic dogfighting altitude for mid and late war German interceptors and U.S. escort fighters.
Just last week I heard one of our escort guys on range radio laughing "My Kung-fu ACM doesn't work up here!" It's a very different fight at 25k :) I've been finding that out through FSO lately myself :lol
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After reading Icepac's Duel Challenge thread I couldn't resist bumping this thread. Maybe ya'll could compromise and agree to merge at 25k, a very realistic dogfighting altitude for mid and late war German interceptors and U.S. escort fighters.
Just last week I heard one of our escort guys on range radio laughing "My Kung-fu ACM doesn't work up here!" It's a very different fight at 25k :) I've been finding that out through FSO lately myself :lol
I know a few who would love to help :t