Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on August 25, 2013, 09:17:13 AM
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:airplane: In view of the damageing forest fires burning now in the western U.S., I thought it might of interest to view some of the "fire fighters" with wings and a little of the history of aerial water bombing! Airtankers or water bombers are fixed-wing aircraft fitted with tanks that can be filled on the ground at an air tanker base or, in the case of flying boats and amphibious aircraft, by skimming water from lakes, reservoirs, or large rivers.
PBY Catalina flying boat(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/220px-PBY_Catalina_airtanker_zpsa10841be.jpg)
Various aircraft have been used over the years for firefighting. In 1947, shortly after World War Two ended, the United States Air Force and United States Forest Service did an experiment in which World War Two aircraft dropped water bombs similar to those used in wartime napalm attacks. It was not found successful, and internal water tanks were found the solution.[6] Though World War II and Korean War-era bombers were for a long time the mainstay of the aerial firefighting fleet, and are still in use newer purpose-built tankers are coming online. The smallest are the Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs). These are agricultural sprayers that generally drop about 800 US gallons (3,000 l) of water or retardant. An example is the Airtractor AT-802F, which can deliver around 800 US gallons (3,000 l) of water or fire retardant solution each drop. Another is the Ukrainan Antonov An-2 biplane which can be fitted with floats that can scoop water from the surface of a body of water. An advantage of the biplane is that it has a lower stall speed than a monoplane meaning it a can fly more slowly over a fire which enhances the accuracy of water or retardant drops. Medium aircraft include the S-2 Tracker (retrofitted with turboprop engines as the S-2T) as used by the California Department of Forestry & Fire Protection (CDF), as well as Conair Group Inc. of Abbotsford, British Columbia, while the Douglas DC-4, the DC-7, the Lockheed C-130 Hercules, P-2V Neptune, Lockheed P-3 Orion and, commercial equivalent, the L188 Electra as used by Air Spray Ltd., of Red Deer, Alberta and others have been used as heavy tankers.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/800px-Fox-firebase-aero_union-N920AU-070904-02-24_zpse6d201eb.jpg)
The largest aerial firefighter currently in use is a Boeing 747 aerial firefighter, known as the Evergreen Supertanker that can carry 24,000 US gallons (90,800 l) fed by a pressurized drop system. The Supertanker entered service for the first time in 2009, fighting a fire in Cuenca, Spain. The tanker made its first American operation on August 31, 2009 at the Oak Glen Fire.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/747waterbomber_zpsbb0a8dca.jpg)
The next largest aerial firefighters currently in use include two converted Martin Mars flying boats in British Columbia (one of which was brought to southern California in September 2007 to help battle the wildfires there). Each Martin Mars can carry approximately 7,200 US gallons (27,300 l) of water or fire retardant each, and the Tanker 910, a converted McDonnell Douglas DC-10 that can carry 12,000 US gallons (45,400 l) of water or retardant. The Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations operates convertible-to-cargo IL-76 airtankers that can carry up to 15,000 US gallons (56,800 l) but have been operating with 11,000 US gallons (41,600 l) tanking systems, and a few of Beriev Be-200 amphibians.
Bombardier's Dash 8 Q Series aircraft are the basis of new, next-generation air tankers. Cascade Aerospace has converted two pre-owned Q400s to act as part-time water bomber and part-time transport for France's Sécurité Civile, one of which is registered F-ZBMC, while Neptune Aviation is converting a pre-owned Q300 as a prototype to augment their P2V aircraft. Air Spray Aviation is also in the process of converting a BAe146 to the role of air tanker at its maintenance facility in Chico, California. Another modern-era passenger jet now being considered for conversion to aerial firefighting in the US, is the McDonnell Douglas MD-80 series.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/800px-4316MAT5_zpsa5cf44ff.jpg)
Similar in configuration to the World War II–era PBY Catalina, the Canadair CL-215 Scooper, and Bombardier CL-415 SuperScooper are designed and built specifically for firefighting. The "Super Scoopers" are not common in the United States where only 2 operate seasonally in southern California. Los Angeles County leases two CL-415s from the Province of Quebec during the fall when the Santa Ana winds are at their worst. 6 American owned CL-215s operate for various State and Federal agencies. Critics of scoopers in the US claim that there is not enough suitable water in fire prone states. CL-215s have been employed with success in North Carolina, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington, Alaska, Northern Idaho, and Monta
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Here's one parked at the lake a few years ago. It's really awesome to see, but not a good thing when it's here.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/Radcam/mm-june-29-2008-012_zpse573115a.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Radcam/media/mm-june-29-2008-012_zpse573115a.jpg.html)
RDD is a service base for the fire bombers so I see the land based aircraft flying out all summer long.
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Up in northern Cali, I saw a few b26's as water bombers a few years back
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Up in northern Cali, I saw a few b26's as water bombers a few years back
Old designation was A-26 so those don't think it was the original B-26..
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Old designation was A-26 so those don't think it was the original B-26..
Im pretty sure it was a B26. Not the A26.
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Im pretty sure it was a B26. Not the A26.
When the Martin B-26 was retired, the Douglas A-26 was redesignated as the B-26. Different airplanes, same designation.
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Im pretty sure it was a B26. Not the A26.
It was the Douglas A26 Invader that was used as the water bombers not the Martin B26 Marauder. Like Widewing said the Invaders were re-designated B26 after WW2, (1948-1965) according to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-26_Invader
They use to fly out of here (RDD) all the time until the late '90's
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Yep A26s were the firebombers. Lots of them now being flown in warbird colors.
Check out the movie "Always". Remake of the WW2 film "A Guy Named Joe" based around fire bombers including an A26.
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Beriev Be-200, belonging to the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations, filling water tanks in the Med Sea while in operation in 2010 Mount Carmel fire in Israel.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Beriev_Be-200_Israel_5-12-2010.jpg)
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When the Martin B-26 was retired, the Douglas A-26 was redesignated as the B-26. Different airplanes, same designation.
Perhaps, make it so that if these are added (planes that can drop water) that they can reduce downtimes for hangers or objects on the field that are on fire? Lowering time by say... 4-5 minutes per drop? Just a thought... If they existed back then :D
Tinkles
<<S>>
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It was the Douglas A26 Invader that was used as the water bombers not the Martin B26 Marauder. Like Widewing said the Invaders were re-designated B26 after WW2, (1948-1965) according to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-26_Invader
They use to fly out of here (RDD) all the time until the late '90's
Well im correct, but incorrect at the same time :rofl
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Well im correct, but incorrect at the same time :rofl
:airplane: The reason the B-26C was renamed by the defense dept. was because they were being used out of Thailand in the Vietnam war and the Thai's would not allow bombers to operate from their country, so the DD re-designated the B-26C "Invader", the A-26C and dropped, I believe, the designation "Invader".
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That doesn't make sense earl. The A-26 was the original designation of the a/c.
In June of 1948, the Air Force decided that it no longer needed light attack bombers, and the Attack designation category was officially eliminated. The designation of the two Invader types was changed to B-26B and B-26C respectively. There was no danger of confusion with the Martin B-26 Marauder, since that aircraft was by that time out of service. (but it seems there is confusion today :devil)
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Thailand wouldn't allow bombers to be based in their country. The US wanted to base B-26/A-26 Invaders in Thailand. so the US changed the designation back to A-26, and walla presto chango not a bomber. :aok
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Thailand wouldn't allow bombers to be based in their country. The US wanted to base B-26/A-26 Invaders in Thailand. so the US changed the designation back to A-26, and walla presto chango not a bomber. :aok
Thus how i am incorrect but slightly correct as well
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That doesn't make sense earl. The A-26 was the original designation of the a/c.
In June of 1948, the Air Force decided that it no longer needed light attack bombers, and the Attack designation category was officially eliminated. The designation of the two Invader types was changed to B-26B and B-26C respectively. There was no danger of confusion with the Martin B-26 Marauder, since that aircraft was by that time out of service. (but it seems there is confusion today :devil)
:airplane: OK, they redesignated the 26C to an A-26, but again, the reason was the political situation in Thialand sir!
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:airplane: In view of the damageing forest fires burning now in the western U.S., I thought it might of interest to view some of the "fire fighters" with wings and a little of the history of aerial water bombing! Airtankers or water bombers are fixed-wing aircraft fitted with tanks that can be filled on the ground at an air tanker base or, in the case of flying boats and amphibious aircraft, by skimming water from lakes, reservoirs, or large rivers.
PBY Catalina flying boat(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/220px-PBY_Catalina_airtanker_zpsa10841be.jpg)
Various aircraft have been used over the years for firefighting. In 1947, shortly after World War Two ended, the United States Air Force and United States Forest Service did an experiment in which World War Two aircraft dropped water bombs similar to those used in wartime napalm attacks. It was not found successful, and internal water tanks were found the solution.[6] Though World War II and Korean War-era bombers were for a long time the mainstay of the aerial firefighting fleet, and are still in use newer purpose-built tankers are coming online. The smallest are the Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs). These are agricultural sprayers that generally drop about 800 US gallons (3,000 l) of water or retardant. An example is the Airtractor AT-802F, which can deliver around 800 US gallons (3,000 l) of water or fire retardant solution each drop. Another is the Ukrainan Antonov An-2 biplane which can be fitted with floats that can scoop water from the surface of a body of water. An advantage of the biplane is that it has a lower stall speed than a monoplane meaning it a can fly more slowly over a fire which enhances the accuracy of water or retardant drops. Medium aircraft include the S-2 Tracker (retrofitted with turboprop engines as the S-2T) as used by the California Department of Forestry & Fire Protection (CDF), as well as Conair Group Inc. of Abbotsford, British Columbia, while the Douglas DC-4, the DC-7, the Lockheed C-130 Hercules, P-2V Neptune, Lockheed P-3 Orion and, commercial equivalent, the L188 Electra as used by Air Spray Ltd., of Red Deer, Alberta and others have been used as heavy tankers.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/800px-Fox-firebase-aero_union-N920AU-070904-02-24_zpse6d201eb.jpg)
The largest aerial firefighter currently in use is a Boeing 747 aerial firefighter, known as the Evergreen Supertanker that can carry 24,000 US gallons (90,800 l) fed by a pressurized drop system. The Supertanker entered service for the first time in 2009, fighting a fire in Cuenca, Spain. The tanker made its first American operation on August 31, 2009 at the Oak Glen Fire.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/747waterbomber_zpsbb0a8dca.jpg)
The next largest aerial firefighters currently in use include two converted Martin Mars flying boats in British Columbia (one of which was brought to southern California in September 2007 to help battle the wildfires there). Each Martin Mars can carry approximately 7,200 US gallons (27,300 l) of water or fire retardant each, and the Tanker 910, a converted McDonnell Douglas DC-10 that can carry 12,000 US gallons (45,400 l) of water or retardant. The Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations operates convertible-to-cargo IL-76 airtankers that can carry up to 15,000 US gallons (56,800 l) but have been operating with 11,000 US gallons (41,600 l) tanking systems, and a few of Beriev Be-200 amphibians.
Bombardier's Dash 8 Q Series aircraft are the basis of new, next-generation air tankers. Cascade Aerospace has converted two pre-owned Q400s to act as part-time water bomber and part-time transport for France's Sécurité Civile, one of which is registered F-ZBMC, while Neptune Aviation is converting a pre-owned Q300 as a prototype to augment their P2V aircraft. Air Spray Aviation is also in the process of converting a BAe146 to the role of air tanker at its maintenance facility in Chico, California. Another modern-era passenger jet now being considered for conversion to aerial firefighting in the US, is the McDonnell Douglas MD-80 series.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/800px-4316MAT5_zpsa5cf44ff.jpg)
Similar in configuration to the World War II–era PBY Catalina, the Canadair CL-215 Scooper, and Bombardier CL-415 SuperScooper are designed and built specifically for firefighting. The "Super Scoopers" are not common in the United States where only 2 operate seasonally in southern California. Los Angeles County leases two CL-415s from the Province of Quebec during the fall when the Santa Ana winds are at their worst. 6 American owned CL-215s operate for various State and Federal agencies. Critics of scoopers in the US claim that there is not enough suitable water in fire prone states. CL-215s have been employed with success in North Carolina, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington, Alaska, Northern Idaho, and Monta
I saw a PBY tanker this past weekend, and the CL-415s are worth their weight in gold, we've leased them since I think '92 or '94 and really should own a pair by now. I think the state should have a few with CalFire too, they're dependent on nearby lakes or the ocean for rapid refilling and dropping, but when conditions are right it's like watching a conveyor belt in action dousing the fire.
Here's one parked at the lake a few years ago. It's really awesome to see, but not a good thing when it's here.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/Radcam/mm-june-29-2008-012_zpse573115a.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Radcam/media/mm-june-29-2008-012_zpse573115a.jpg.html)
RDD is a service base for the fire bombers so I see the land based aircraft flying out all summer long.
I was just remembering the '08 fires up there yesterday with the Rim Fire still burning today, I was in Trinity County. I still have some '08 wine grown nearby that tastes like smoke. Few weeks ago I saw the C-130 roaring south down the the N.Fork and heading twords the upper lake after a drop.
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I saw a PBY tanker this past weekend, and the CL-415s are worth their weight in gold, we've leased them since I think '92 or '94 and really should own a pair by now. I think the state should have a few with CalFire too, they're dependent on nearby lakes or the ocean for rapid refilling and dropping, but when conditions are right it's like watching a conveyor belt in action dousing the fire.
I was just remembering the '08 fires up there yesterday with the Rim Fire still burning today, I was in Trinity County. I still have some '08 wine grown nearby that tastes like smoke. Few weeks ago I saw the C-130 roaring south down the the N.Fork and heading twords the upper lake after a drop.
:airplane: A few years back, can't remember when it was, early 2000's I think, I remember seeing video of C-130 which was dispensing fire retardant, somewhere out west, which one of the wings folded back over the fuselage and of course they crashed and all on board were killed. Post accident investigation showed a number of previous cracks in the wing area around and including the main spar. If memory serves correctly, I believe it was an old A or B model, can't remember which.
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In July 2000 watched a PB4Y (USN B-24) start up and take off at Grey Bulls WY to bomb a local fire.
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:airplane: A few years back, can't remember when it was, early 2000's I think, I remember seeing video of C-130 which was dispensing fire retardant, somewhere out west, which one of the wings folded back over the fuselage and of course they crashed and all on board were killed. Post accident investigation showed a number of previous cracks in the wing area around and including the main spar. If memory serves correctly, I believe it was an old A or B model, can't remember which.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bDNCac2N1o
That's a nightmare right there...
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(http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/mt/flightglobalweb/blogs/aircraft-pictures/assets_c/2009/04/DC-10%20water%20bomber-thumb-450x300.jpg)
:aok
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Awesome video of a Be-200 doing multiple water pickups in Portugal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__XflBfmVs4
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ezstir in my squad flew b17s as a waterbomber if i remember this correctly.