Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: lyric1 on September 17, 2013, 05:41:50 AM
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Since this vehicle is rare to see much at all in game now days I think a small tweak might help it see more usage.
The rockets we have only has two settings 45 deg & 23 deg.
After looking about on line it looks like they could angle the rockets at many angles other than just two settings.
If you look at pages #22 & #23 there is a drawing & a brief description on how the system works.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/142222253/SSP-2021-SdKfz-251
This book has no description of the range of movement the rockets has in terms of what angles they could be set at. After comparing what we have in AHII & what I can see in the photos it seems to me that our angles are not as shallow as they could be & not as steep either.
So what I would like to know is if someone has more specific information on the exact angles that could be obtained? Reason being if for example we could lower the angle down a few degrees this would make it easier to hit targets in front of them. Then with practice I am sure with the steeper angle it would be able to be used a little more like a mortar. A high angle of fire with not that much distance were you could lob it on to a target & have a better line of sight.
Then also the ability to change the angle while in game if the need requires it to be changed as they did in real battle situations. Maybe come to a complete stop & a small time penalty for adjustment that would be some what more realistic.
This is the photo that caught my eye.
See how low an angle the rocket leaves at.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rock_zpsdd230a03.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rock_zpsdd230a03.jpg.html)
Also take note of how close the crates are to one another compared to our AHII version.
The rockets are set at 23 deg in the below screen shots.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rockh_zps2fc724e4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rockh_zps2fc724e4.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rockg_zps81862d93.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rockg_zps81862d93.jpg.html)
When you place a rule on the screen along the edge of the rocket crate in the photo & then scroll down to the AHII shots its clear the angle in the photo is less than the 23 deg.
These pictures also show a much steeper angle from my best guess than what we use at 45 deg.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rocka_zpsdb066510.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rocka_zpsdb066510.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rockd_zps624c73dd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rockd_zps624c73dd.jpg.html)
It looks like we have ours set a little closer to what this picture looks like.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rockc_zpsab009a3c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rockc_zpsab009a3c.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/251rockk_zpsae84caa3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/251rockk_zpsae84caa3.jpg.html)
In a nutshell full range of degrees available for rocket launch & the ability to change angle while in play. :aok
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+1 for this wish
and another +1 for the purdy pictures :D
Tinkles
<<S>>
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+1
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I agree completely. From one of the pics it appears as if the crates could rotate, now this could be to help facilitate loading or it could be to adjust the angle of fire. We don't really know. I'm guessing both.
In addition to allowing the 28cm rockets ranges to be dialed in or at least adjusted, I HIGHLY suggest HTC explore the other variants available for the SdKfz 251 chassis. Most notably the -9, -21, and -22.
The -9 has the 75mm L/24 infantry support gun. This would be like having the LVT-4 available for land (quick firing HE platform), it would be good for towns, etc.
The -21 has three 20mm's for AA use. It would fill the gap between the Wirblewind and M16.
The -22 has the PaK 40 75mm AT gun, this is the same gun as the Panzer IV H. The rate of fire can be quoted as 14-15 rounds a minute (4 second reload). The only thing disappointing is that it used the ZF gun sight which only has a 3X zoom. Regardless, this would be a very cheap yet very effective mobile anti-armor platform. Oh wait, the Hetzer is already available at 35 ENY. Never mind (just kidding).
So in addition to allowing the 28cm rockets to be aimed, HTC could easily add in a few more gv's just by building on the 251 chassis already in play.
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+1
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I agree completely. From one of the pics it appears as if the crates could rotate, now this could be to help facilitate loading or it could be to adjust the angle of fire. We don't really know. I'm guessing both.
In addition to allowing the 28cm rockets ranges to be dialed in or at least adjusted, I HIGHLY suggest HTC explore the other variants available for the SdKfz 251 chassis. Most notably the -9, -21, and -22.
The -9 has the 75mm L/24 infantry support gun. This would be like having the LVT-4 available for land (quick firing HE platform), it would be good for towns, etc.
The -21 has three 20mm's for AA use. It would fill the gap between the Wirblewind and M16.
The -22 has the PaK 40 75mm AT gun, this is the same gun as the Panzer IV H. The rate of fire can be quoted as 14-15 rounds a minute (4 second reload). The only thing disappointing is that it used the ZF gun sight which only has a 3X zoom. Regardless, this would be a very cheap yet very effective mobile anti-armor platform. Oh wait, the Hetzer is already available at 35 ENY. Never mind (just kidding).
So in addition to allowing the 28cm rockets to be aimed, HTC could easily add in a few more gv's just by building on the 251 chassis already in play.
This! To re-post an old post of mine in this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,349858.msg4622411.html#msg4622411 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,349858.msg4622411.html#msg4622411), here are some pictures of these.
Sd.Kfz 251/9 with 75 mm L/24.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/SdKfz251-9.jpg/800px-SdKfz251-9.jpg)
Sd.Kfz 251/10 with 37 mm Pak 36.
(http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Sdkfz_251-10.jpg)
Sd.Kfz 251/22 with 75 mm Pak 40 L/46.
(http://data.primeportal.net/apc/clemens_niesner/sdKfz_251/SdKfz%20251-22%20CN1.jpg)
Sd.Kfz 251/17 with 20 mm KwK 30 L/55.
(http://www.leadwarrior.com/Photos/L35015f4.jpg)
Sd.Kfz 251/23 with 20 mm KwK 30 L/55 in a Puma turret mount.
(http://ww2photo.se/tanks/d/sdkfz/sd251/02632.jpg)
Sd.Kfz 251/21 with three 15 mm MG151 autocannons. Later upgunned to 20mm's.
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/weapons-systems-tech/187176d1317953259t-german-15mm-autocannon-sdkfz251-21.jpg)
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+1
:salute
BigRat
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+1 :rock
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+1 I'd love to see more variations of the Gv. And maybe the the ability to change angle during a sortie (with appropriate time delay and having to be stopped of course). I am a little up set that I have bounced one of these rockets of a panther before (then it killed me), I think they should detonate against armor and actually do damage.
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+1 too more variants.
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Is that really a Puma turret??
Looks kinda like the cage topped one off the 4 wheeled armored car w 20mm..
Cool anyway..
+1 on the 251 variants..
+1 adjustable elevation for the Rockets.. I always thought that it had an elevation adjustment anyway..
I just cant believe that something so simple and basic could be overlooked by the German engineers..
Just can't be so..
Some mounted the 81mm mortar too, fast shootin, good hitting power.. Better than a 75mm infantry gun..
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Some mounted the 81mm mortar too, fast shootin, good hitting power.. Better than a 75mm infantry gun..
Oh? Be specific. In what ways? The only real advantage a mortar would have would be range, especially in AH.
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When the M3 received its AT gun variation in-game, The SDK should have received it also IMO.
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I agree completely. From one of the pics it appears as if the crates could rotate, now this could be to help facilitate loading or it could be to adjust the angle of fire. We don't really know. I'm guessing both.
Found some more photos.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-22_zps17afe939.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-22_zps17afe939.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/SdKfz251I1-5_zps49eb9325.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/SdKfz251I1-5_zps49eb9325.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-27_zpsf9ef19dd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-27_zpsf9ef19dd.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-18_zps0038e65c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-18_zps0038e65c.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-17_zpsa0d5e226.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-17_zpsa0d5e226.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-19_zps8e23c0d8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-19_zps8e23c0d8.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-20_zpsbeab2c88.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-20_zpsbeab2c88.jpg.html)
This one is the money shot.
You can see the scale counting off the degrees.
Only purpose for that is for adjustment. :aok
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21_zps1fde0875.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21_zps1fde0875.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-7_zps600c2fa2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-7_zps600c2fa2.jpg.html)
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Is that really a Puma turret??
Looks kinda like the cage topped one off the 4 wheeled armored car w 20mm..
Cool anyway..
You are correct. That turret was mounted on several armoured cars. It was mounted on the Puma to create the 234/1 of which around 200 were built.
(http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/images/heer/armoured-cars/sd.kfz.234-1-8-rad-1.jpg)
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Some additional info.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/105083364/Intelligence-Bulletin-Mar-1945
http://www.scribd.com/doc/97968970/S040-Waffen-Arsenal-Sonderband-Deutsche-Nebelwerfer-1934-1945
http://www.scribd.com/doc/101969254/D-1124-Der-28-32-cm-Nebelwerfer-41-Vorlaufige-Geratebeschreibung-1942
http://www.scribd.com/doc/101970842/Wurfkorper-28-32-cm-der-deutschen-Schlachtflieger
http://www.scribd.com/doc/101970494/D-444-2839-Die-28-32-cm-Munition-des-Nebelwerfers-41-01-01-1943
http://www.wehrtechnikmuseum.de/Noch_Fragen_/Antworten/Pressluftgranaten/pressluftgranaten.html
This link says 5 deg to 40 deg range of motion.
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/07/stuff_eng_herbst_stukazufuss.htm
http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/tag/28cm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=78447
5 deg to 40 deg in this one as well.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/129416506/Germany-s-Sd-Kfz-251-Series-Half-Tracks-doc
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I have wondered before why the rockets on the SdKfz did not get their own station just like they do in the PT boat. That way you could adjust the firing angle with your joystick while in sortie (that movement could be made very slow to simulate the manual adjustment)
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I have wondered before why the rockets on the SdKfz did not get their own station just like they do in the PT boat. That way you could adjust the firing angle with your joystick while in sortie (that movement could be made very slow to simulate the manual adjustment)
Not a bad idea :aok Or you could make it like the 88's.
Come to a complete stop select rockets then use C & V to dial in an angle with the degrees changing in the top corner. The photos I posted show it was a cumbersome process to load each rocket at least 5 guys at a time to change them out.
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http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=232
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You are correct. That turret was mounted on several armoured cars. It was mounted on the Puma to create the 234/1 of which around 200 were built.
(http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/images/heer/armoured-cars/sd.kfz.234-1-8-rad-1.jpg)
Hmmm, i always thought the "Puma" moniker was bestowed on the 50mm version of the 234..
Never heard of the name being used as generic to all the 8wheelers..
If so, it's news to me..
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These two pics certainly make it look like a fully adjustable angle
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-27_zpsf9ef19dd.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-7_zps600c2fa2.jpg)
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Oh? Be specific. In what ways? The only real advantage a mortar would have would be range, especially in AH.
Ability to fire High Angle from reverse slope..
In general, a mortar shell will have a higher capacity of HE filler than an equal caliber of Arty shell, because the casing of the projectile can be made thinner.. Yielding a larger blast radius and more destructive power against soft targets like buildings and Hangars..
Can't find the weight of the HE fill in the 75 or the 81 tho..
Can't go by total weight, because of the thicker iron casing of the HE Arty shell makes them heavier every time..
Iron is heavier than TNT filler ya know, lol.. So i can't make an exact comparison..
A mortar has no AT capacity tho, can't fire HEAT and HESH rounds, so it could only run from Tanks..
And without a system for indirect fire in the game, I suppose a Mortar Barrage from the Reverse slope, wouldn't be feasible in the game..
So I guess you are right, the game just ain't ready for Mortar Barrages yet.
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well the nebelwerfers where called "Stuka zu fuss" :old:
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Hmmm, i always thought the "Puma" moniker was bestowed on the 50mm version of the 234..
Never heard of the name being used as generic to all the 8wheelers..
If so, it's news to me..
I'm generalising as I admit I do not know an awful lot about German armoured cars. The 234/1 was essentially the same vehicle as the 234/2 "Puma", the only difference being the swapped out turret. But yes, the Puma name officially only referred to the 50mm version.
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I'm generalising as I admit I do not know an awful lot about German armoured cars. The 234/1 was essentially the same vehicle as the 234/2 "Puma", the only difference being the swapped out turret. But yes, the Puma name officially only referred to the 50mm version.
It's OK man.. It's a game centered on things that happened a long time ago..
Kinda frivolous considering all that is happening in the world right now..
Puma scruma, It's a small thing, no matter.. I'm not one of those guys that get
Hyper anal about this stuff.. :lol
50mm puma turret would look pretty sweet on an enclosed 251 tho.. :rock
Actually surprised they didn't try it, they weren't shy about any other combos..
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"Puma" was never used for the 234/2 - common myth - and for not for the whole 234 series. And the "Puma" turret was a "Leopard" turret (from the cancelled Panzer II (VK 16.02)).
The 2cm turret of the Sd. Kfz. 222 was used on multiple vehicles like 250/9 recon halftrack or the Panzer 38(t) recon tank from 1944. From ~1941 on it used the KwK 38 instead of the older KwK 30. From 42 or 43 on it was installed in a Hängelafette so it could be used against aircraft (high gun elevation).
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Amazing what you can buy.
http://www.suedsteiermarkversand.at/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=Archivflypage.tpl&category_id=322&product_id=3623&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=7
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May make an interesting planter.
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This link says 16 deg to 45 deg :headscratch:
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6284.htm
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+1000 great wish
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++100 YES! :aok
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+1. Equalizer to the M3!
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+1. Equalizer to the M3!
Speaking of M3'S look what the Germans did with theirs.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/ST10-M3wurfrahmen_zps10c25f6e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/ST10-M3wurfrahmen_zps10c25f6e.jpg.html)
Yep rocket launchers. :rock
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Playing about with this photo & I noticed a couple of things of interest?? :headscratch: Well at least to me. :D
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21_zps1fde0875.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21_zps1fde0875.jpg.html)
After enlarging it & cropping the rear launcher.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21c_zps20460a33.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz__251-Wurfrahmen-40-Stuka-Zu-Fuss-21c_zps20460a33.jpg.html)
I can see that each pivot plate has two locking clamps shown in red.
Also shown in yellow I think this is a pendulum or a plump bob that was used to determine what angle the actual vehicle was sitting. You can see what looks like a small scale half way down the shaft.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/1531e923-8295-4816-b053-017c6f62bb50_zpsf2d5e3e3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/1531e923-8295-4816-b053-017c6f62bb50_zpsf2d5e3e3.jpg.html)
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:aok
I have wondered before why the rockets on the SdKfz did not get their own station just like they do in the PT boat. That way you could adjust the firing angle with your joystick while in sortie (that movement could be made very slow to simulate the manual adjustment)
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What I REALLY wish for is to not only have the rocket crates able to be set at specific angles, but also for their to be some kind of range finder to use as well. This goes for the PT boat and the M4A3 Calliope as well. While I can't vouch for how the PT boat crews or Sherman Calliope crews ranged their rockets I can say the Germans used a rangefider of some sort (I'll have to look up the exact model name).
Since this is an indirect source of fire, I'd hope there would be some help in ranging.
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What I REALLY wish for is to not only have the rocket crates able to be set at specific angles, but also for their to be some kind of range finder to use as well. This goes for the PT boat and the M4A3 Calliope as well. While I can't vouch for how the PT boat crews or Sherman Calliope crews ranged their rockets I can say the Germans used a rangefider of some sort (I'll have to look up the exact model name).
Since this is an indirect source of fire, I'd hope there would be some help in ranging.
Been talked about before.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,308839.0.html
This would have been one of them that could have been used.
LUFFK-001
4TH picture in the link.
http://snyderstreasures.com/pages/optics.htm
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:aok
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Absolute +1000 to fully adjustable launch angle on the rockets, and +EleventyBillion to the 75mm Pak 40 variant.
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I don't use the 251 often. I wish I did.
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Squad mate found this book on line. It is exactly what I have been looking for to answer all we need to know & enough info that HTC can use for an update. :headscratch: If they choose to do so. :pray
Thank you Chalenge for this link. :aok
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52160248/Field-Rocket-Equipment-of-the-German-Army-1939-1945?2=0
This book has a lot of detail on how they used the SdKfz 251/1.
First off our HTC vehicle fires the rockets in the wrong order.
Small detail really.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg.html)
The angles for the rockets. 5 deg - 45 deg.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg.html)
Also the range and adjustments of the rockets with this chart.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg.html)
Also this photo that shows how they figured out the range.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg.html)
I cropped & enlarged the fellow in this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg.html)
So the man in the photo is using this or something like it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg.html)
This is the view through the rabbit ears that I could find.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg.html)
Few links on the rabbit ears.
http://www.thegermanwarmachine.com/photogallery/3/index.aspx
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=8545
Like the slide rule info in this link.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/43794-french-army-military-periscope-rabbit-ear-binoculars/
http://bunkersite.com/bunkeroptik/optics/kreis.php
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww-ii-german-french-military-138692364
http://tedbrink.webs.com/germany12.htm
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:aok
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Ah, a stereoscopic Rangefinder.. Wished for that a million times!
Now who would have possibly thought that they might have one of those??
They were common as dirt in all the armies/navies of the world during WW2..
+1, But I ain't holdin my breath.. Would kinda equalize things a bit for
some who can't judge range for squat.. Make for almost no ranging shots needed..
Every "gunner" should have access to one of those.. 17lbers, 88's, all Naval Rifles..
The Bigger they were, (wider between the oculars) the more accurate they were..
Some German tanks had them built in to the Turrets near the end of the war..
All ships had Great Big One sitting way up on top.. It was combined with the
Gun director that would aim all the guns simultaneously.. Big Boom Boom!
Shore Batteries should have the same kind of Rangefinder/Director as ships too..
I don't even know if it would be possible to coad that.. Look thru it, seeing a double image,
then rotate the knob or dial/handle, until the 2 images coincide into one, then read the range..
Hmmm??? Sounds complicated to me..
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Squad mate found this book on line. It is exactly what I have been looking for to answer all we need to know & enough info that HTC can use for an update. :headscratch: If they choose to do so. :pray
Thank you Chalenge for this link. :aok
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52160248/Field-Rocket-Equipment-of-the-German-Army-1939-1945?2=0
This book has a lot of detail on how they used the SdKfz 251/1.
First off our HTC vehicle fires the rockets in the wrong order.
Small detail really.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg.html)
The angles for the rockets. 5 deg - 45 deg.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg.html)
Also the range and adjustments of the rockets with this chart.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg.html)
Also this photo that shows how they figured out the range.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg.html)
I cropped & enlarged the fellow in this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg.html)
So the man in the photo is using this or something like it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg.html)
This is the view through the rabbit ears that I could find.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg.html)
Few links on the rabbit ears.
http://www.thegermanwarmachine.com/photogallery/3/index.aspx
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=8545
Like the slide rule info in this link.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/43794-french-army-military-periscope-rabbit-ear-binoculars/
http://bunkersite.com/bunkeroptik/optics/kreis.php
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww-ii-german-french-military-138692364
http://tedbrink.webs.com/germany12.htm
COPY AND PASTED!!!! That is some great info, I'm confident that HTC will follow through with allowing for adjustable ranging. If we know the angles, we know the approximate ranges! Nice!!! :aok
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Some more rabbit ear stuff this link also has graticule pictures in the first link.
http://www.fieldgear.org/optics.htm
http://www.fieldgear.org/sf14.htm
http://www.fieldgear.org/sf14serviced.htm
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=418
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=614450
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Some more rabbit ear stuff this link also has graticule pictures in the first link.
http://www.fieldgear.org/optics.htm
http://www.fieldgear.org/sf14.htm
http://www.fieldgear.org/sf14serviced.htm
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=418
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=614450
Few more links. The grid graticule seems to quite common.
seen here in the first link towards the bottom of the first page.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534107
This one is different again.
Have to scroll down for all the photos there is a lot of them in the link below this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/WP_001773_zps891a002c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/WP_001773_zps891a002c.jpg.html)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-S-F-10-x-50-Scherenfernrohr-Binoculars-Rabbit-Ears-Trench-Periscope-/161064437294?nma=true&si=o8yNyc%252BQsc2ohtqf9HJlfqqX7vE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
http://www.militarytrader.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3443
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Few more links. The grid graticule seems to quite common.
seen here in the first link towards the bottom of the first page.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534107
This one is different again.
Have to scroll down for all the photos there is a lot of them in the link below this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/WP_001773_zps891a002c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/WP_001773_zps891a002c.jpg.html)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-S-F-10-x-50-Scherenfernrohr-Binoculars-Rabbit-Ears-Trench-Periscope-/161064437294?nma=true&si=o8yNyc%252BQsc2ohtqf9HJlfqqX7vE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
http://www.militarytrader.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3443
Different graticule again on this set.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/100-Orig-1WK-Feldgrau-S-F-09-Scherenfernrohr-Rodenstock-Fernglas-1909-Optik-RAR-/380695671530?pt=Militaria&hash=item58a33af2ea
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/25595faf71f7e6be79299554b168ba739_zpse23ab554.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/25595faf71f7e6be79299554b168ba739_zpse23ab554.jpg.html)
Grid type again.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/KGrHqZooFIwO-2GYEBSOcV1mUd60_58_zpse0278b51.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/KGrHqZooFIwO-2GYEBSOcV1mUd60_58_zpse0278b51.jpg.html)
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Original-Scherenfernrohr-S-F-14-Z-Hensoldt-Wetzlar-Wehrmacht-2-WK-Normandietarn-/190905937865?pt=Militaria&hash=item2c72e16fc9
The Hetzer used them as well.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/hzr-024_zpse5d689e4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/hzr-024_zpse5d689e4.jpg.html)
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Scherenfernrohr-Fernglas10x45-AST-SZK-1201-C-1428-Artillerie-1953-Holz-Stativ-/261286553231?pt=NATO_Shop&hash=item3cd5e4668f
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This grid pattern is a little different to the others no numbers on it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/8001111201240003246_zps8b4a3758.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/8001111201240003246_zps8b4a3758.jpg.html)
http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl=de&biw=1280&bih=613&tbm=isch&tbnid=ZYAc7_LEcJL6OM:&imgrefurl=http://www.fernglasmuseum.at/museum/hensoldt_scherenfernrohr_sf14z/hensoldt_scherenfernrohr_sf14z.html&docid=YjEARkBJKh4JIM&imgurl=http://picsstorage.aupedo.com/aupedolive2/8001111201240003141.jpg&w=800&h=600&ei=3j5BUpbVApP_yQHM3YDwBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=984&vpy=35&dur=17&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=120.666748046875&ty=123.66667175292969&page=1&tbnh=151&tbnw=235&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:101
http://www.google.de/imgres?start=218&um=1&hl=de&biw=1280&bih=613&tbm=isch&tbnid=od-jiYgGG5GQwM:&imgrefurl=http://at.picclick.com/Scherenfernrohr-bmj-SF14ZGi-H-6400-M-Marine-Optik-350820675169.html&docid=SHOsMXvNcHnu9M&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/VQcAAOxyhodRxu05/%2524T2eC16J,!)cE9s4PsMd5BR)u05VWeg~~/Scherenfernrohr-bmj-SF14ZGi-H-6400-M-Marine-Optik_57.jpg&w=800&h=600&ei=UUJBUvLjOaOCyAGYvoHADg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=984&vpy=49&dur=722&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=123.3333740234375&ty=122.33334350585937&page=7&tbnh=142&tbnw=199&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:31,s:200,i:97
http://www.google.de/imgres?start=247&um=1&hl=de&biw=1280&bih=613&tbm=isch&tbnid=q9p8Py9ZwxQ6qM:&imgrefurl=http://de.picclick.com/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Scherenfernrohr-der-120684363188.html&docid=5n0puwrATa2JqM&itg=1&imgurl=http://s04.trixum.de/upload2/j/D/jDcFHWxdE38C129758100318P1486.jpg&w=531&h=800&ei=UENBUvukBcqCygG504CYDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=2&vpy=78&dur=264&hovh=276&hovw=183&tx=67.33333587646484&ty=158.6666717529297&page=8&tbnh=156&tbnw=110&ndsp=34&ved=1t:429,r:65,s:200,i:199
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Although this is not the 251 model these two pictures give an idea as to how the rabbit ears could be mounted on the 251?
Page 16.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/rabbitears_zps1074c633.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/rabbitears_zps1074c633.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/rabbitears2_zps4392be9b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/rabbitears2_zps4392be9b.jpg.html)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/111990035/1972-Bellona-Handbook-No-2-German-Army-Semi-Tracked-Vehicles-1939-45-Part-2-Light-Armoured-Personnel-Carriers?2=0
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Artillery like this is unlikely to come with a range-finder as standard. It's an indirect fire weapon, so the procedure would be to survey the battery position onto the map. Range/bearing information would come from forward observers or even air photographs providing a grid reference, and the firing data would be calculated from that using firing tables which would include adjustments for weather, wind, the earth's rotation, etc. In my very limited experience, it takes about 30 minutes to survey a gun position, although only about two to crash the guns in and out of action. Rocket artillery like this, which requires aiming with the whole vehicle and manual adjustment of the firing angle for each rocket, would take considerably longer, and combined with the inherent inaccuracy would be used en-masse (like Katyusha) Thus it would mostly see use in deliberate attacks where the targets are large, fixed and known well in advance, or deliberate defences where they'd be sited on major (brigade sized) kill zones.
Having said all that, to make the vehicle truly useful in the game, it needs at least to have the ability to have the user adjust the range and some means of estimating it. Coincidence rangefinders wouldn't likely be part of the battery's standard kit - they'd be off with the forward observers who actually can see the targets. However the battery would certainly carry binoculars. All those various graticules lyric1 has put up are just various ways of showing a 10 mil grid. 1 mil is 1 metre across at 1000 metres. When adjusting fire, you just count the mils from where the shell went off to where you want the next one landing, and multiply by the range in kilometres to get your left/right adjustment. The range comes from your map and the Mk I eyeball, and you use range-cutting to get on target (adjust by decreasing powers of two, and alternate add/drops to bracket the target). Or if you know the width of your target in advance (like a hanger say), then you ratio it's width on the ground to its width in mils in your binos, and there's your range.
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SOLD! +1 on the adjustability of the rocket launcher - having it fixed really nerfs the utility of this vehicle, and it is too nice a job to be left in the hanger all the time.
+1 also on the rabbit ears rangefinders - I have been wishing for something like this for years.
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Bump.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sdkfz_251_Stuka_Zu_Fuss_firing_zpsdd442e39.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sdkfz_251_Stuka_Zu_Fuss_firing_zpsdd442e39.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/Sd_Kfz___251_1_mit_28_32_cm_Wurfrahmen_Stuka_zu_Fuss_zps14aba84c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/Sd_Kfz___251_1_mit_28_32_cm_Wurfrahmen_Stuka_zu_Fuss_zps14aba84c.jpg.html)
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:salute I guess I missed it how do you aim these rockets? in ah I mean.
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:salute I guess I missed it how do you aim these rockets? in ah I mean.
You have to know the trajectory from your position.
Lets say for a direct hit on a hangar or town building you need to be at 2500 yards or so from that target. So you get to guess (unless you have really dead-accurate memory) how far that distance is.
Right now we have no way of knowing how far we are from the target (no aiming system) unless you use trial and error.
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How many of those are needed to take down a hangar at this time?
I remember doing some testing and it seems they fire further when stationary than while moving.
Maybe the vehicle noses down at speed?,.......not sure.
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How many of those are needed to take down a hangar at this time?
I remember doing some testing and it seems they fire further when stationary than while moving.
Maybe the vehicle noses down at speed?,.......not sure.
In real life when they fired these there was no crew inside of them. They were just an artillery piece when firing rockets & were stationary when they did.
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How many of those are needed to take down a hangar at this time?
I remember doing some testing and it seems they fire further when stationary than while moving.
Maybe the vehicle noses down at speed?,.......not sure.
well.... if the German 28cm Wurfkorper rockets do 280 lbs of damage to OBJ's, and a hanger has a hardness of 2781 lbs.....
If you're accelerating the vehicle has a steeper pitch thereby launching the rockets a wee bit further. Likewise, if the vehicle is braking the impacts will be much close and I do not advise such things, it is easier than you might think to blow yourself up. The 28cm rockets have impressive splash damage. If the vehicle is moving at a constant speed on a complete flat surface then there will be no difference. The problem is the fixed angles in which the rockets can currently be fired.
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If the vehicle is moving at a constant speed on a complete flat surface then there will be no difference.
I think it was Lusche that wrote that the range is shortened when driving forward because the "wind" causes the rocket to weathervane downward into a lower, shorter trajectory. Backing up has the opposite effect and the rocket will go farther. I believe I tried this at the time and found it to be true.
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An actual view though a range finder on the Russian front during WWII.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/tumblr_mqa3vjXR061rykip3o3_1280_zpsc8b37e0b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/tumblr_mqa3vjXR061rykip3o3_1280_zpsc8b37e0b.jpg.html)
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I think it was Lusche that wrote (...)
I think that wasn't him :old:
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I think it was Lusche that wrote that the range is shortened when driving forward because the "wind" causes the rocket to weathervane downward into a lower, shorter trajectory. Backing up has the opposite effect and the rocket will go farther. I believe I tried this at the time and found it to be true.
Again... if you're speed is constant and the angle of departure is the same then if there is any difference it won't be noticeable by us commoners. You can test the theory by using the low angle and sitting on the end of a run way. Fire 1, then "measure". There is your control. Then get to 10 mph, fire a rocket and measure. Etc. Film it. Then form your own opinion.
Or... use the laws already in place. :aok
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Had to laugh at the video :rofl :headscratch: & another shameless bump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c112FzTolu8
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+1
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Squad mate found this book on line. It is exactly what I have been looking for to answer all we need to know & enough info that HTC can use for an update. :headscratch: If they choose to do so. :pray
Thank you Chalenge for this link. :aok
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52160248/Field-Rocket-Equipment-of-the-German-Army-1939-1945?2=0
This book has a lot of detail on how they used the SdKfz 251/1.
First off our HTC vehicle fires the rockets in the wrong order.
Small detail really.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing_zps53defeaf.jpg.html)
The angles for the rockets. 5 deg - 45 deg.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firingd_zps854a649e.jpg.html)
Also the range and adjustments of the rockets with this chart.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/firing1_zps19c364ed.jpg.html)
Also this photo that shows how they figured out the range.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocs_zpse10873a7.jpg.html)
I cropped & enlarged the fellow in this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/binocsa_zpsff83e67d.jpg.html)
So the man in the photo is using this or something like it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/FIRING2_zps42d3faee.jpg.html)
This is the view through the rabbit ears that I could find.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/vehicles/P121127004_zps6979dd4a.jpg.html)
Few links on the rabbit ears.
http://www.thegermanwarmachine.com/photogallery/3/index.aspx
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=8545
Like the slide rule info in this link.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/43794-french-army-military-periscope-rabbit-ear-binoculars/
http://bunkersite.com/bunkeroptik/optics/kreis.php
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww-ii-german-french-military-138692364
http://tedbrink.webs.com/germany12.htm
The Scribd link with the rocket data in it was deleted. So here is another one of the same book.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/176680671/Field-Rocket-Equipment-German
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Allright ! :old:
+1