Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Flench on September 17, 2013, 05:08:14 PM
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I know we have some gun nut's in here so maybe one of you can tell me .
Is their anyone that make's a small caliber black powder rifle that I could use to squirrel hunt with ?
Ammo is getting so hard to come by I like to have something smaller than my 54 caliber that I deer hunt with . I like to have the same gun but like in a 22 caliber .
Anyone ?
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I know we have some gun nut's in here so maybe one of you can tell me .
Is their anyone that make's a small caliber black powder rifle that I could use to squirrel hunt with ?
Ammo is getting so hard to come by I like to have something smaller than my 54 caliber that I deer hunt with . I like to have the same gun but like in a 22 caliber .
Anyone ?
Smallest Ive ever seen is a .32 caliber. I think to use a smaller ball would be very hard.
This one here looks like a sweetie http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Traditional-Rifles-Shotguns|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104641380/Traditions-Crockett-32-Caliber-Percussion-Rifle/740702.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Ftraditional-rifles-shotguns%2F_%2FN-1100202%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104641380%3FWTz_l%3DUnknown%253Bcat104792580%253Bcat104701680&WTz_l=Unknown%3Bcat104792580%3Bcat104701680%3Bcat104641380
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Link not working Rich .
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Try this one Flench..
Rich's Link (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Traditional-Rifles-Shotguns|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104641380/Traditions-Crockett-32-Caliber-Percussion-Rifle/740702.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Ftraditional-rifles-shotguns%2F_%2FN-1100202%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104641380%3FWTz_l%3DUnknown%253Bcat104792580%253Bcat104701680&WTz_l=Unknown%3Bcat104792580%3Bcat104701680%3Bcat104641380)
:salute
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Thanks . I have never seen a .32 caliber before . I wonder how small of lead you can get for it ? See what I can find . Thanks again for the link .
Let me add . Thats the same gun I got now but in a .54 cal .
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Yup, traditionally BP rifles in .32 through .36 are considered squirrel rifles, and are sniper-accurate with light loads.
Personally, if you're going to buy a BP firearm, I can't hardy see going with one of those new-fangled percussion jobs. I'd step right up to a decent flinter!
Either way, Track has some nice finished guns as well as a variety of kit-type guns.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Category.aspx/485
Sitting Fox has some fantastic options too.
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.html
There's a world of difference in the reliability and accuracy of Track or Sitting Fox vs. the Cabela's options. Been there, done that...
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Thanks mtnman . I have not been able to find anything . Thanks for the links . Now to figure out what I'm going to do or go with but it's what I want to get into .
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Dixie Gunworks has a sweet little .32 cal I use to hunt small game. I use 30 grains of FFF and she shoots dead on at 50 yards.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=c5d1omag4iuf4nquvbghes5uo5&keywords=crockett+rifle&x=-549&y=-371
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/32cal_zps9b503bec.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/32cal_zps9b503bec.jpg.html)
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Thompson Center Arms had a .32 called the Seneca. Very nice shooter once the barrel was seasoned.
Those might be found used now.
I don't have the patience for flint. Way to long between trigger and boom.
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Cool uptown .
I don't know if I have the patience for a flint as well . I do a lot of missing that be for sure .
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I'm glad to see someone else out there likes to hunt the old way. My buddies around here think I'm nuts, but man I have a blast with the black powder cap guns.
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We get to hunt right after the archery guys. Animals are not spooked yet.
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I'm glad to see someone else out there likes to hunt the old way. My buddies around here think I'm nuts, but man I have a blast with the black power cap guns.
I love to deer hunt with mine . What made me think about squirrel hunting with one . Usually don't take but one shot anyway and it just be all around good fun .
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Sweet! :rock
I would just like to add that inline muzzleloaders are for women and sissies. :cool:
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I don't have the patience for flint. Way to long between trigger and boom.
Not with a decent, well-tuned flintlock.
http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Mtnman_03/media/Flintlockrealtime.mp4.html
Even at 25% speed it isn't too bad!
http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Mtnman_03/media/Flinlock25.mp4.html
This is a .54 that I built for deer hunting, to match my .54 early Hawken's. With the charge I use for deer(off a sandbag) it will place three shots touching each other at 50 yards. 50 yards, not feet.
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Thought that comment would grab ya Mtnman. :D
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Cool uptown .
I don't know if I have the patience for a flint as well . I do a lot of missing that be for sure .
That's a fairly common sentiment, but it really doesn't take anything extra patience-wise to shoot a flintlock well. You just keep it clean, and keep your flint sharp, and use real BP.
When it comes to hunting, the flintlock has some distinct advantages over the percussion guns. Enough so that if I had a shot at a true trophy, I'd want a flintlock in my hands over a percussion gun any day...
When it come to missing, it's really the jerk on the trigger that's responsible for that.
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Thought that comment would grab ya Mtnman. :D
:D :aok
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I would just like to add that inline muzzleloaders are for women and sissies. :cool:
Heck, that's even an insult to a woman or sissy, I'd imagine!
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When it come to missing, it's really the jerk on the trigger that's responsible for that.
I know it took me awhile to learn not too jerk when I shot skeet all the time . The only way I really got read of it was to mix up my shell's with a few blanks .Well the guy's in the club would slip one in on you before you hit the line . Always a big kick out of it but it work's .
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One of these days I need to take my dad's Hawken out to the range again.
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One of these days I need to take my dad's Hawken out to the range again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7nqxIdROsI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7nqxIdROsI)
:rock
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One of these days I need to take my dad's Hawken out to the range again.
I hear ya . I'm going to pull mine out in the morning and shoot it some . Deer season is not that far away .
I like to squirrel hunt but using a 12 gauge just seems to take the fun out of it now day's . Be different if I really needed the food .
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That's a fairly common sentiment, but it really doesn't take anything extra patience-wise to shoot a flintlock well. You just keep it clean, and keep your flint sharp, and use real BP.
When it comes to hunting, the flintlock has some distinct advantages over the percussion guns. Enough so that if I had a shot at a true trophy, I'd want a flintlock in my hands over a percussion gun any day...
When it come to missing, it's really the jerk on the trigger that's responsible for that.
It seems that most flint guns have faster lock times than percussion guns... Important in minimizing motion between the sear releasing and the powder charge detonating.
Then again, in wet conditions, I'd prefer the percussion rifle. Push on a cap, wipe some lube/grease around the cap on the nipple and it will fire even after an afternoon in drizzle or rain. Not so sure I'd be as fortunate with flint...
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Here's my girly man sissy deer slayer :D
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Picture387_zpsfd1431b9.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/Picture387_zpsfd1431b9.jpg.html)
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Then again, in wet conditions, I'd prefer the percussion rifle. Push on a cap, wipe some lube/grease around the cap on the nipple and it will fire even after an afternoon in drizzle or rain. Not so sure I'd be as fortunate with flint...
Never crossed my mine to do that . Well have to remember that . Good tip . Plus I got a bunch of 409 caps from reloading .
uptown is that one a .50 ?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7nqxIdROsI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7nqxIdROsI)
:rock
The two guys in that video struck me as being less than brilliant.
Do they even understand what the set trigger is for? Also, they really need a starter ball in their kit.....
(edit: This starter ball in similar to mine, although mine is 30 years old....)
(https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/402623_L1?$product$)
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Oh , One more question . Powder or pellet's or does it make a difference ?
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Here's my girly man sissy deer slayer :D
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Picture387_zpsfd1431b9.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/Picture387_zpsfd1431b9.jpg.html)
(http://www.pmdawnonline.com/forum/images/smilies/bs.gif)
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Oh , One more question . Powder or pellet's or does it make a difference ?
Yes and no....
Molded pellets are simple and easy to use. No powder measuring or mis-measuring. No spillage.
On the other hand, you're pretty much limited to some very specific, very conservative charges.
With loose powder, you can adjust your charge as needed.
I forgot to mention... Pellets are typically used in inline BP rifles, not side locks...
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The two guys in that video struck me as being less than brilliant.
Do they even understand what the set trigger is for? Also, they really need a starter ball in their kit.....
(edit: This starter ball in similar to mine, although mine is 30 years old....)
(https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/402623_L1?$product$)
Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson. Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker. And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire. :)
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Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson. Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker. And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire. :)
I may have quoted the wrong video.... I was referring to the two dilbert country boys being unsafe with a Hawken .50...... Sorry....
I meant this one, linked to yours.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EsgoTsIBlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EsgoTsIBlo)
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It seems that most flint guns have faster lock times than percussion guns... Important in minimizing motion between the sear releasing and the powder charge detonating.
Then again, in wet conditions, I'd prefer the percussion rifle. Push on a cap, wipe some lube/grease around the cap on the nipple and it will fire even after an afternoon in drizzle or rain. Not so sure I'd be as fortunate with flint...
I've often hunted with a flintlock for extended periods in the drizzle, and have found it to be not that much of a worry. I've never had an issue with delay or misfires while hunting in moist/wet conditions, but that could be an entirely different story if the rifle was fouled and reloaded, and then left to sit for a while. It does come down to paying attention to details of course.
I just keep the lock tucked up under my arm while carrying or still hunting, and have a cow's knee that I may occasionally use while sitting. I do have the waterproof style pan on my rifle and pistol (but not on the Bess), and that helps if you get an occasional drip of water that just happens to hit the lock.
One huge advantage the flint has over percussion in moist conditions (IMO) is that I can take a momentary glance at the lock area of my weapon and know that I'll have positive ignition. A percussion lock doesn't give you that option. With a flintlock you really need three things to guarantee ignition. A sharp flint, a clean frizzen, and dry powder; all three of which can be verified with a glance and even corrected if necessary in a few seconds.
Range conditions don't accurately represent hunting conditions, at least in my experience. At the range, I regularly shoot a lot and allow my flint to get so dull until it doesn't spark all that great before I break down and knap it. Repeated shooting builds fouling, and some of that is of course on my frizzen, again hindering spark. If it's humid, wet, drizzling, or raining the fouling pulls moisture into the pan and bore, moistening the priming and main charge. I've never had that moisture prevent ignition, but if I let the loaded gun sit long enough between shots I'm sure it would... I do regularly clean between shots to keep things clean and consistent, but the gun is far dirtier than it would ever be allowed to get in a hunting situation. I have less-positive ignition at the range than I do in field conditions, because I'm not as careful with ignition details at the range.
A flint gives me 40-50 shots before it gets dull, at which point it takes a few strokes to knap a fresh edge (not done while loaded, obviously).
When I hunt, I always hunt with a fresh edge, and dry fire a few times prior to loading to verify I have a heavy spark. If the frizzen is skimmed-over with powder fouling, it can easily prevent or reduce your spark as well. Again, in a hunting scenario I just make sure it's clean. Sharp flint and clean frizzen means there will be plenty of spark...
When it comes to dry powder, that's easily verified by flipping the frizzen open. That allows me to verify that my priming is dry, and in addition I can see a kernel or two of the 2F main charge in the vent.
Dry kernels visible in both locations, along with a sharp flint and a clean frizzen means there's gonna be a bang when I pull the trigger.
And of course it's a direct line between the pan and the main charge; no corners to go around.
Percussion locks don't allow that type of verification. Even with a fresh, clean rifle you have the potential for a little bit of crud, oil, or grease in the nipple or bolster to block the spark from getting to the charge. If you have a spotlessly clean rifle, you run the risk of oil or grease, and it just takes a little to cause problems. If you fire a cap or two prior to loading you mostly remove that potential, but add the potential for a flake of soot or fouling to be introduced in there somewhere... Even during the loading process you may have some "clumping" of powder in the bolster area (I can visually discount that potential with a flintlock because I can see the kernels in the vent). I've never hunted with a percussion gun, but I have friends that do, and have friends that have missed opportunities due to those factors.
Percussion guns can obviously be very reliable, of course, but I've seen far more mis- and hang- fire issues with them as a whole than with "decent", well cared-for flintlocks. Unfortunately, many of the flintlocks on the market aren't all that great. They have poor frizzens, poor geometry, and are poorly tuned. Even good locks are often poorly loaded, or loaded with synthetic powders just adding to the nightmare. It's really little wonder that so many people are scared off by them. Even good flinters are poorly loaded in the movies so that they appear more dramatic when fired (the delay is actually exaggerated for the movies; the Patriot and The Last of the Mohican's are easy examples).
In reality, "late" flintlocks were highly refined, highly effective ignition systems. Flintlocks were in military use for how long? 250 years? The military seldom makes use of a weapon without doing some serious tweaking and refinement... Give 'em 250 years to perfect a system and it's no wonder it got to be pretty danged good. When percussion locks came into play there was surprisingly little "rush" to adopt them in the military or for home/frontier use. They were a new "fad" of course, but only saw military use for maybe 30 or so years(?) before quickly being replaced by cartridges. Percussion just wasn't the system of choice long enough to have the bugs ironed out.
The true value of percussion wasn't a drastic improvement over flintlocks, it was that the technology led to the invention of the primer.
I'm obviously biased, but I honestly consider the 1820's to 1840's flintlock to be superior to percussion.
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Oh , One more question . Powder or pellet's or does it make a difference ?
The pellets in our area run about 4x the cost of an equivalent quantity of loose powder.
They're usually a pellet of synthetic powder with a thin base of easier-to-ignite powder at the base, and are designed to be ignited from the bottom/rear by an in-line ignition.
They can be difficult to ignite with a side/traditional lock, which may lead to misfires and hang-fires.
The pellets can be stacked as well (2x 50 grain charges = 100 grain charge) and often come in 30 and 50 grain options. That gives you some options with loads, but may require you to purchase both boxes to experiment with (did I mention they're 4x the cost of loose powder around here?).
Optimal accuracy may not be possible with the pre-sized pellets either. Your rifle may shoot most accurately with a 25gr or 35gr charge, but if you only have 30gr or 50gr pellets...
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Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson. Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker. And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire. :)
Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?
68valu
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Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?
68valu
Wasn't it Johnston?
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I used to shoot with a mountain man club. Start shooting BP and you'll never go back to a rifle. They wanted me to join but I had to much going on. They had their rendezvous where you had to only have pre-1840 gear on you and with you. What fun.
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Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?
68valu
Because he was not that friendly to the native americans?
To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it :aok
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Isn't it more politically correct to say 'charcoal based powder' instead of calling it BLACK? :devil
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To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it :aok
There was a story in one of the BP magazines a couple years back about a rifleman during 1812 who was picking off British officers during some siege from well over 200 yards with his Kentucky rifle. The story was written by one of the lucky officers who did NOT get shot at, because every time they saw his rifle swing up, one of them went down with a clean headshot.
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Never crossed my mine to do that . Well have to remember that . Good tip . Plus I got a bunch of 409 caps from reloading .
uptown is that one a .50 ?
Yessir that's a Knight LK-93 .50 cal. Also on the subject of keeping your primer dry, I went this route http://www.knightrifles.com/209-primer-loading/ .....these slip over the 209 shotgun primers.
I shot 2 pellets (50 grains each) with this just because it's quicker.....that's with a 300 grain jacketed sabot. I prefer loose powder in everything below .50 cal.
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Because he was not that friendly to the native americans?
To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it :aok
The first day I took my .32 cal Crockett rifle out of the box I stepped off 100 paces and nailed a beer can 2 for 2. I just upped the powder charge from their suggested 20 grains for 50yrds to 30 grains. The thing about my little rifle is it's so damned heavy that is easy to keep it steady and on target. It's by far the best shooting BP rifle I've ever owned.
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The pellets in our area run about 4x the cost of an equivalent quantity of loose powder.
They're usually a pellet of synthetic powder with a thin base of easier-to-ignite powder at the base, and are designed to be ignited from the bottom/rear by an in-line ignition.
They can be difficult to ignite with a side/traditional lock, which may lead to misfires and hang-fires.
The pellets can be stacked as well (2x 50 grain charges = 100 grain charge) and often come in 30 and 50 grain options. That gives you some options with loads, but may require you to purchase both boxes to experiment with (did I mention they're 4x the cost of loose powder around here?).
Optimal accuracy may not be possible with the pre-sized pellets either. Your rifle may shoot most accurately with a 25gr or 35gr charge, but if you only have 30gr or 50gr pellets...
So I am putting to much powder in mine then (.54) . I am shooting 150 gr of powder with a 500 gram lead ?
OH thats right uptown . 209 not 409 , lol . I all way's did get that mixed up . No wonder the guy back in the day looked at me crazy when I ask for 409 ,lol .I do it all the time lol
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So I am putting to much powder in mine then . I am shooting 150 gr of powder with a 500 gram lead ?
I wouldn't say that. The charges I listed were hypothetical.
I'm able to load up to 120gr in my .54 rifle, only about 80gr in my .75 Brown Bess.
The correct charge for your particular firearm depends on a lot of variables, not the least being safety. Using 2F powder your charge would be different than with 3F; caliber matters, barrel make-up does too. And rate of twist, projectile type and weight, etc... The "best" load for your particular gun is something you need to experiment with to determine, and the manufacturer's guidelines are a good place to start.
If you experiment with the charge, patch material, patch thickness, patch lube, etc, you'll see some pretty serious differences and should be able to determine what works out best. The most accurate load for your gun is seldom anywhere near the safe "maximum" load.
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When I started getting into BP I bought a book that I've found extremely helpful in explaining the different types of powder/loads and so forth. IMO this book ought to be in every BP shooters library. I think it was less than 20 bucks.
http://www.adorama.com/LY9827100.html?gclid=CKqD9_6D1rkCFcbm7Aod63kArw
This book will explain all the variables MtMan is talking about in choosing what's best for you. I highly recommend it. It's actually made me a better shooter
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Thanks men <S> .