Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Grayclif on September 26, 2013, 10:05:22 AM
-
Anyone else agree that .303 rounds are still not doing proper damage in game? Even .50cal damage is not correct still after so many years.
I emptied 1500 rounds from a Jug into 3 bombers (B24's), so approx 500 rounds per bomber with not a single part coming off, or a vapor stream of any kind. I could detect no damage whatsoever.
-
Film?
-
how did you get .303's on a p-47?
-
And how does someone who's landing 1500 hits on 3 bombers in a single sortie only have a hit percentage of 4.98% :headscratch:
-
how did you get .303's on a p-47?
He is the Graybeard, of course...
And how does someone who's landing 1500 hits on 3 bombers in a single sortie only have a hit percentage of 4.98% :headscratch:
See above explanation...
-
And how does someone who's landing 1500 hits on 3 bombers in a single sortie only have a hit percentage of 4.98% :headscratch:
it means he likely hit about 75 bullets out of the 1500, and if spread between all 3 in the formation, each got hit by about 28 bullets.
5% is not that bad by the way.
-
First, stop referring to ALL .30 caliber MG's as "3oh3's". That is the name of the .30 caliber cartridge the British used (.303 British). There are I think 6 different .30 caliber MG's in AH, and they all do close enough in damage and have similar enough trajectories to not worry about the differences. The same can't be said for the .50 cal/13mm MG's or 20mm cannon in AH.
A .30 cal FMJ does an average of .295 lbs of damage (.28 to .31 respectively). The typical .50 cal FMJ does 1.03 lbs of damage. Take in to consideration the rate of fire, the number of guns, the convergence, the range of the target, etc, etc... there are many factors to take in to consideration when trying to tinkle in to the wind. Trust us when we say dont worry about it and keep practicing. :aok
-
I am pretty sure I shot down a Lancaster in a KI-43 with those punky little guns. I bet 8 Browning 303s will do even better at 250 meters. Do you think it may be a marksmanship problem? :confused:
-
I am pretty sure I shot down a Lancaster in a KI-43 with those punky little guns. I bet 8 Browning 303s will do even better at 250 meters. Do you think it may be a marksmanship problem? :confused:
8 is nothing. 12 is where it's at! :D
-
I am pretty sure I shot down a Lancaster in a KI-43 with those punky little guns. I bet 8 Browning 303s will do even better at 250 meters. Do you think it may be a marksmanship problem? :confused:
I got the "Shoot down three American bombers in one mission" by downing three B-17s with the Ki-43.
Each round from the Ho-103 does 1.000lbs of damage to a structure. Against aircraft the velocity of the impact factors in as well so the damage is not exact. I was very close to the 17s when I downed three of them.
The .303 British does 0.295lbs of damage per hit to a structure. .30s lose their energy a lot faster so you must be close to be effective against airplanes. The rate of fire for the .30s is typically much higher than for HMGs and cannons.
Machine guns don't do as much damage per hit as cannons, so it is much more important to focus your fire accurately. Spraying over the target frequently results in a perforated, but functional, target.
For reference:
Ho-5 20mm does 3.35lbs per hit.
MG151/20 does 3.540lbs per hit.
Type 99 Model II does 3.860lbs per hit.
Hispano Mk II does 4.060lbs per hit.
MK108 does 11.710lbs per hit.
BK5 does 54.680lbs per hit.
-
Anyone else agree that .303 rounds are still not doing proper damage in game? Even .50cal damage is not correct still after so many years.
I emptied 1500 rounds from a Jug into 3 bombers (B24's), so approx 500 rounds per bomber with not a single part coming off, or a vapor stream of any kind. I could detect no damage whatsoever.
There is nothing wrong with the .50 caliber in AH, you're just a very crappy shot. Same with the .303, it's a rifle caliber round so it's not going to have hitting power of a .50 caliber round but it is still lethal if you are close to your target and can actually hit what you shoot at.
ack-ack
-
Grayclif,
What I run into when I don't fly a 30cal or 50cal only plane for awhile, is not the guns and their results modeled incorrectly. It's my ability to apply them consistently to my target that is off. With MG you have to first be able to place a concentration of rounds on target inside of a small area. Otherwise spaced out across an airframe you are punching random holes with the off chance of a pilot kill or maybe holing a fuel tank.
Those Oh so spectacular 45-90 degree MG crossing snap shots from 400 and closer that magically blows up the con. You got a magic lucky bb through the side of the pilots head or torso. If the wing falls off, you got the required steady concentration of MG rounds into the correct place on the wing to trigger the damage response of a wing falling off.
MG require more skill during the 2sec burst needed to kill a plane or damage a bomber than cannons. Cannons are hail mary easy mode because they work on chemical destructive energy that doesn't change in potential over it's programed range of effectiveness. With MG you have to be able to hold the stream on your con or be able to place your stream in front of the con so much of it impacts the con to effect the damage counter to give you your desired response.
When I'm attacking bombers with a 47 and I cannot damage them in the face of rounds landed. I start looking at my connection visa the Internet, my choice of convergence, and how much lack of practice I've had lately shooting MG. If I'm feeling really pig headed, I load up the offline drone circle with B17 and film myself for awhile shooting to see how much it takes to dismantle the bomber piece by piece with 50cal hanging back 400-600. It's an eye opener how tough bombers are.
Many of my squad mates have noticed bombers have been toughened up a bit in the last 9 months. I've looked at it offline in the drone circle and bombers seem to be a bit tougher when I dismantle test them. Unless you get a magic bb into the cockpit. That's why I HO bombers in the cockpit with Yak's from 100yds. Sometimes I only tap the 2-50cal in a short 20 round burst into the pilot's seat. Eight 50cal from a 47 is over kill and very satisfying.
-
Failclef :D
-
There is nothing wrong with the .50 caliber in AH, you're just a very crappy shot.
ack-ack
Agreed. I shoot at 200yds, and I've taken wings off P-47s with less than a 1-second burst in convergence with the Ma Deuce Six Pack.
-
I have a film somewhere (dont think our film viewer will show older films because it keeps crashing when I load old films) Anyhow, I was in a Ki-84, with less than 50rpg in my 12.7mm I shot off a tail of a P-47 that was bombing tanks, no 20mms and he had no damage, I just got closer then 200yards.
In an FSO event once I shot down 9 axis aircraft with 303s, all under 200 yards.
Thing is I tend to shoot under 400 yards, regardless - I wait and hold ammo otherwise I end up spraying endless for little damage. Most will joke the spitfire wings are "Weak" reality is it will take some damage, but in a turn fight the wings are exposed giving a big FAT target, little effort is needed to take a wing off when the target is that big, P51D however is much harder to hit on the wings if anything you take out a few guns.
Thus being said, Ive had a few fights in hurricanes where I dump half my ammo shooting at 400 or more, even in a P-47.
I think it comes down to distance, a 30mm can take a tail off with 1 hit at 1000k, problem is the size of the bullet it only needs ONE hit, a 12.7mm however disperses so much that you cannot get enough hits to do that kind of damage - so you end up spraying more ammo just to make up for it.
-
Some of our 12.7mm and all of our 13mm, 20mm, 30mm, 37mm and 50mm in our single and twins not tank busters, do not loose their destructive capacity over the full distance of their in game effective distance. Because they use a chemical explosive payload to effect damage. TNT, PTEN, HA41, or Penthrite for some. This is the single reason for Germany going with cannons. You don't need as many contacts to the enemy to perform similar damage as from kinetic rounds. Thus the 50cal(12.7mm) rate of fire and numbers in the wings. We almost got a 60cal(15.2mm) cannon in WW2.
30cal and 50cal are kinetic damage projectiles. I'm assuming they are some modeling of API since we set all planes on fire with them. I've never seen an HTC table showing effective range to VLoss relative to loss of kinetic potential. If the Browning AN/M2 is modeled after AAF 1945 specs. At 2000ft(666yds) we should be sawing everything apart inside of 3sec in the air if enough rounds make contact except for maybe the IL2 at some angles.
Does anyone have a chart of max effective range in AH for 30 and 50cal along with the kinetic potential at every 100yds? Having something like that posted up as a pull up chart would go a long way towards player self help. Added to that the max range in game for every round type. You can watch the matrix absorbing wirbel rounds if you setup a few yards past about 1700yds. They just disappear short of hitting you. You can see the same phenomenon against the offline target. There will be a range at which rounds stop making a mark on the target.
-
In the Battle of Britain Scenario (underway, with last frame tomorrow, Saturday at 3 pm Eastern in Special Events II for any interested), Thrila flying Hurri I's got 10 kills in frame 2 and 8 kills in frame 3, usually on a couple of sorties, and many of those kills are He 111's and Ju 88's (which are fairly tough).
I'd say .303's are not impossible to kill with. :aok
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame3/027-thrila3-SNAG-0041.jpg)
-
Some of our 12.7mm and all of our 13mm, 20mm, 30mm, 37mm and 50mm in our single and twins not tank busters, do not loose their destructive capacity over the full distance of their in game effective distance. Because they use a chemical explosive payload to effect damage. TNT, PTEN, HA41, or Penthrite for some. This is the single reason for Germany going with cannons. You don't need as many contacts to the enemy to perform similar damage as from kinetic rounds. Thus the 50cal(12.7mm) rate of fire and numbers in the wings. We almost got a 60cal(15.2mm) cannon in WW2.
30cal and 50cal are kinetic damage projectiles. I'm assuming they are some modeling of API since we set all planes on fire with them. I've never seen an HTC table showing effective range to VLoss relative to loss of kinetic potential. If the Browning AN/M2 is modeled after AAF 1945 specs. At 2000ft(666yds) we should be sawing everything apart inside of 3sec in the air if enough rounds make contact except for maybe the IL2 at some angles.
Does anyone have a chart of max effective range in AH for 30 and 50cal along with the kinetic potential at every 100yds? Having something like that posted up as a pull up chart would go a long way towards player self help. Added to that the max range in game for every round type. You can watch the matrix absorbing wirbel rounds if you setup a few yards past about 1700yds. They just disappear short of hitting you. You can see the same phenomenon against the offline target. There will be a range at which rounds stop making a mark on the target.
Thanks for jumping on that. I always cringe when I see/hear people equating the size of the projectile to the amount of damage attributed to the cartridge in question. Aside from the 37mm from the IL-2, 40mm from the Hurricane IID, and the 37mm from the Stuka G-2, the rest of the aircraft cannons in AH are firing HE or "performance" warheads, meaning that the projectiles were meant to break apart or explode upon impact. Vs thin skinned aircraft, it is this effect that is desired and it is also one of the major reasons the US went with 4 or 6 .50 cal MG's in their fighters in hopes to mimic the large enough damage area similar to 20mm cannons.
The best way to determine IF range effects damage is to take an M3 armed with the single .50 cal, plus gv supplies, and start pounding a hanger offline (set the hardness to 10 lbs, or 100 lbs, etc). Start at roughly 400 yards, then back of to 600, then 800, then 1000, etc. Record the number of hits it takes to bring down that hanger. Technically, the further back the M3 is the more hits it should take to bring down the hanger because of the lower kinetic energy of the FMJ's. Now, we all know that the damage dealt from a player to OBJ's and player controlled vehicles are not the same, but there is some correlation (4 lbs dmg from a Hispano 20mm to an OBJ does not mean a Hispano 20mm will do 4 lbs damage against a plane). Keep that in mind.
My hunch is that is HTC has modeled in a deduction of damage for FMJ projectiles based on range that the difference between 400 yards and 1200 yards is almost negligible to players, at least to OBJ's. Against player controlled vehicles (planes and gv's), it is any person's guess.
-
The best way to determine IF range effects damage is to take an M3 armed with the single .50 cal, plus gv supplies, and start pounding a hanger offline (set the hardness to 10 lbs, or 100 lbs, etc). Start at roughly 400 yards, then back of to 600, then 800, then 1000, etc. Record the number of hits it takes to bring down that hanger. Technically, the further back the M3 is the more hits it should take to bring down the hanger because of the lower kinetic energy of the FMJ's. Now, we all know that the damage dealt from a player to OBJ's and player controlled vehicles are not the same, but there is some correlation (4 lbs dmg from a Hispano 20mm to an OBJ does not mean a Hispano 20mm will do 4 lbs damage against a plane). Keep that in mind.
This doesn't reveal anything actually. Damage values are fixed against objects like hangars and ammo bunkers. Range most certainly affects the damage of rounds when hitting planes, GVs or the PT Boat though.
My hunch is that is HTC has modeled in a deduction of damage for FMJ projectiles based on range that the difference between 400 yards and 1200 yards is almost negligible to players, at least to OBJ's. Against player controlled vehicles (planes and gv's), it is any person's guess.
It is a physics calculation. HiTech has said that even altitude air density affects it in the game. It is likely quite significant.
-
This doesn't reveal anything actually. Damage values are fixed against objects like hangars and ammo bunkers. Range most certainly affects the damage of rounds when hitting planes, GVs or the PT Boat though.
It is a physics calculation. HiTech has said that even altitude air density affects it in the game. It is likely quite significant.
Me thinks not as much as people tend to think. The bigger culprit of longer FMJ shots not doing damage are going to be the obvious: not enough shots on target and more so not enough shots on a small enough area on target. Just how often are we going to get 12, 18, 24, or 30+ .50 cal hits on a X square area on a specific part of the plane at 800 yards like we do at the closer convergence points? When a US fighter with 6/.50 cals has convergence set to 300 yards and the target just hangs their as a nice red bulls-eye, that is a bit different if that same plane pot shots a burst at an enemy target 800 yards away and in a high speed turn. About the only plane we could measure any of that with is the P38, and again that can really only be measured against a static OBJ like a hanger. Again, there is a difference between aircraft and gv's vs OBJ's, they way they receive damage is like comparing an apple and orange. We can only really measure damage to OBJ's.
I understand that HTC had modeled air density, I've read the same threads you have. However, I've not seen any data supporting the loss of damage for .50 cal FMJ's at longer ranges. Again, the only way we can document is to measure it off line vs an OBJ and go from there. IF in fact it takes a few more rounds to bust an OBJ at longer ranges then it is likely that the longer range damage ability vs an aircraft or gv via FMJ is modeled as well.
FWIW, I've not noticed at difference when in an enemy town in an M3 and I hammer a building up close or I let loose on a building a couple of hundred yards out. Mind you, I believe the .US 50 cal FMJ does its best work (AP penetration) at 600 yards, iirc. Likewise, the 5.56 NATO is best at 200 yards, and the 7.62 NATO is 500 yards, iirc (I'll have to look up exact data source).
Test it out and let us know. :aok
-
Again, the only way we can document is to measure it off line vs an OBJ and go from there. IF in fact it takes a few more rounds to bust an OBJ at longer ranges then it is likely that the longer range damage ability vs an aircraft or gv via FMJ is modeled as well.
No need for all that. It's quite simple:
vs Objects range is no factor, damage value is fixed for all weapons
vs players (planes, gv and such) it is.
This is how it has been officially stated before.
-
No need for all that. It's quite simple:
vs Objects range is no factor, damage value is fixed for all weapons
vs players (planes, gv and such) it is.
This is how it has been officially stated before.
Ah. Didn't know the Big Cheese had official stated that range means nada vs OBJ but does mean something for player controlled vehicles.
-
I have a 1942 document that shows penetration testing with API 0.5 in Browning.
Zero degree impact to steel plate.
200yds - 20mm
400yds - 18mm
600yds - 16mm
The values for 20 and 40 degree reduce these almost by thirds.
.303 and .30cal are just doing 1\4in of steel at 200. By 400-600 the German layered aluminum plate armor will stop them. So as our recent BoB event showed, get real close and you can kill bombers. Or kill late war better armored fighters with 8-.303.
Seems all testing documents or armorers manuals for the allies, 50 cal are not thought of as effective past about 600yds. Whether this is real world human ability based or physics I don't know. But, we know in our game we tend to be supermen when it comes to long range shooting.
Note:
The British only penetration tested 20mm Ball\AP\API to 400yds. Penetration was only just a bit better than .50 API at all ranges. And HE to 200yds, to which it looks like they only wanted to know aluminum skin would be breeched before detonation.
-
I have a 1942 document that shows penetration testing with API 0.5 in Browning.
Zero degree impact to steel plate.
200yds - 20mm
400yds - 18mm
600yds - 16mm
The values for 20 and 40 degree reduce these almost by thirds.
.303 and .30cal are just doing 1\4in of steel at 200. By 400-600 the German layered aluminum plate armor will stop them. So as our recent BoB event showed, get real close and you can kill bombers. Or kill late war better armored fighters with 8-.303.
Seems all testing documents or armorers manuals for the allies, 50 cal are not thought of as effective past about 600yds. Whether this is real world human ability based or physics I don't know. But, we know in our game we tend to be supermen when it comes to long range shooting.
Note:
The British only penetration tested 20mm Ball\AP\API to 400yds. Penetration was only just a bit better than .50 API at all ranges. And HE to 200yds, to which it looks like they only wanted to know aluminum skin would be breeched before detonation.
AP data vs steel is very different than vs non-armored mediums (for lack of better terms). The details are in what happens once the process of the initial impact is completed, meaning once the projectile busts through the first medium. Vs a steel plate at X yards is one thing, vs a cinder block, aluminum plane skin and internal struts, or other such mediums that wont completely strip the kinetic energy and physical integrity of the FMJ away once the initial impact occurs is another. As we all know the HE or performance warheads were meant to dissipate immediately, while the FMJ's by default were meant to keep on going. Case in point: AP damage does not equate parallel damage to an aircraft in AH. Enough damage must be dealt to a specific part of the targeted plane in order for "damage" to occur. Otherwise, we're just punching holes in the plane.
Also, regarding the "not as effective past 600 yards" bit, that may be true in actual performance of the .50 cal FMJ, but ultimately I think it had to do with the thought of "what for?" 600 yards is a long ways for the human eye to gauge, and without the use of optics it is almost pointless unless the desired effect is area saturation.
-
German armorers manuals for 109 and FW indicate Germany felt the chemical and kinetic potential of their 20mm rounds was satisfactory 550-700 meters air to air. But, then they were shooting at bombers while their harmonization attempted to create a dual sweet spot about 250-275 meters for fighter combat and 550-700 max for bombers.
In 1943 the NAVY "Bureau of Aeronautics" created specific arcane area saturation harmonization patterns for all of their fighters to shoot down Japanese bombers. Their assertion was 666yards maximum range for the .50cal to still achieve any effective damage. NAVY pilots quickly changed their harmonization patterns from personal combat experience. The Bureau assessed that the relative speeds and forces effecting the line of a muzzle of aircraft in combat created effects that simply scattered rounds to much to be effective past the 666 range. They projected a 1 degree dispersion cone at any range or 17.4Mils for their arcane harmonization pattern that the pilots quickly changed. The AAF projected an average 4Mil dispersion cone at any given range as the most effective.
The US tests the 20mm to 4200ft(1400yd) for the P38 while the .50cal to 3000ft(1000yds). Yet the harmonization charts specify 2000ft for both as max effective range.