Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Muzzy on September 26, 2013, 11:21:31 AM
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Having (more or less) completed my research into the Yak 3, I am now moving on to the Yak 7B. Again, I will be looking for insights and opinions that can help shape the entry for the Wiki.
Having flown it sparingly, I think it is, in a nutshell, the ultimate in average aircraft. It has no major vices that I could see, but it is not outstanding in any area either. Not horribly slow, not a terrible climber, decent enough in the turn, but nothing that makes it stand out. The upside is that you get a bird that, while outclassed by most Late War rides, is still competent enough to get the job done, provided you fly it with extra caution.
Any thoughts or opinions on this model?
-Muzzy
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The Yak7 feels more stable in low speed maneuvers than the Yak3 (at least to me).
The extra MG ammo in the Yak7 extends firing time a little bit.
The Yak7 "crappy plane" icon makes opponents a little more inclined to turn with you, which is a good thing.
The yak3 is much more survivable if you need to skedaddle out of Dodge.
Overall, I had more fun flying the 7 than the 3.
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Having flown it sparingly, I think it is, in a nutshell, the ultimate in average aircraft.
Hah! I love that description. Reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPXVhpA2loI
- oldman
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Hah! I love that description. Reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPXVhpA2loI
- oldman
I want one.
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Can I get it in beige?
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No but it comes in a sporty white, and the controls have the comforting blue knobs that you have come to expect from fine Soviet craftsmanship.
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I wonder how ot turns with a P47? :devil
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I flew the Yak 7B a couple of times when it first came out (maybe the day it came out).
To me, it seemed like a really nice-handling plane with good turning ability and marvelous roll response. It is a 1942 airplane, though.
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I've flown it a couple of time, and hated it. Just not enough low-speed engine power to really get into the knife fights like I enjoy doing.
Of course I'm also flying K4's a lot, so I'm probably being unfairly harsh :lol.
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Hah! I love that description. Reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPXVhpA2loI
- oldman
In Spain some years ago the Dacia Logan, the cheapest saloon available, was promoted similarly to your video, but for real, beige families and all. They wanted to highlight it's "redeeming factor": price. Funny idea but I'm not sure if it was really intelligent. No one wants to be seen (in Spain moreso, apparence is important) in a car designed and promoted as dull and known to be the cheapest one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSRWLybO3Kc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFQePeC2n6A
Similar story to the Tata Nano. That one at least was not designed to look plain.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tata-nano-failure-2011-12
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In Spain some years ago the Dacia Logan, the cheapest saloon available, was promoted similarly to your video, but for real, beige families and all. They wanted to highlight it's "redeeming factor": price. Funny idea but I'm not sure if it was really intelligent. No one wants to be seen (in Spain moreso, apparence is important) in a car designed and promoted as dull and known to be the cheapest one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSRWLybO3Kc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFQePeC2n6A
Similar story to the Tata Nano. That one at least was not designed to look plain.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tata-nano-failure-2011-12
Dacia have moved on to the "cheap but still exciting" advertising tactic and it seems to be working. They have had record sales in the UK this year and their budget range has been praised left, right and center.
As for the Yak, I've only really flown it in a fight once yesterday against AI 109G-2s in the AvA. Once I had pushed them to the deck I was able to kill them both in a sustained turn-fight but it took a while to get round on each of them.
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http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/05/08/scottish-government-unveils-not-far-leave-car-multi-channel-campaign :D
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I've flown it a couple of time, and hated it. Just not enough low-speed engine power to really get into the knife fights like I enjoy doing.
Of course I'm also flying K4's a lot, so I'm probably being unfairly harsh :lol.
When you compare EW to LW that tends to happen. Yak-3 surprisingly holds its self quite well except for the slower acceleration, I never got a chance to do K4 vs Yak-3, but I did fight a Yak-7 vs K4, 1942 vs 44 is way to different, if a K4 loses he's just a poor pilot.
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I don't know if its entirely the MW vs LW difference. Compared to the G-2, it just feels sluggish.
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It is definitely sluggish, especially when fully fueled, and like the Yak 3 it takes a while to get going. I find the handling to be better once you push it to the 350 range. It works very well as a boom and zoom or slashing style of aircraft, especially if you can come in with enough altitude to get up to speed once you get into combat. It lacks the Yak-3's escape clauses (climb rate and raw speed) so you really need to bug out early if you want to live.
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I like the 7B for busting light skinned gv's. However, the I-16 is still better suited for that role since it has a pair of 20mm, the same 6 rockets, and it is far more agile than the -7B.
The Yak-7B is lacking in fire power just like the rest of the Yak fighters, however it is the slowest and least agile, imo.
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Meh.... They're all crap :ahand.
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1942 isn't EW.
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1942 isn't EW.
From an American, and Russian I suspect, perspective it is, but not from a European perspective.
Yak-7B vs A6M2?
Yak-7B vs Bf109E-4?
Yak-7B vs Bf109F-4?
Yak-7B vs Bf110C-4b?
Yak-7B vs F4F-4?
Yak-7B vs Hurricane Mk I?
Yak-7B vs Hurricane Mk II?
Yak-7B vs Ki-43-II?
Yak-7B vs P-40E?
Yak-7B vs Spitfire Mk I?
Yak-7B vs Spitfire Mk V?
I think the Yak-7B would be at a disadvantage in a significant number of those fights.
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Wtf?
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Wtf?
Pointing out that while it may not be early war from a European perspective, it is from a Russian or American perspective and its performance is very much inline with bonafide early war fighters.
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I said that 1942 isn't EW, I don't know what year the yak7 is from. Dunno about the rest in that list but the Ki43 II is a midwar fighter, I know this because it's kills count as kills in a mid war fighter. I stated a fact and you're going on about well, erm, it's a matter of perspective isn't it? No it isn't, not if you're counting with earth numbers. And then you post some weird bellybutton list.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
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Basically you composed a list of planes and pointed out that the yak7 fares rather poorly compared to them, therefore it isn't a mid war plane. I'm sorry, I'm just at a loss for words. Hence wtf.
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Basically you composed a list of planes and pointed out that the yak7 fares rather poorly compared to them, therefore it isn't a mid war plane. I'm sorry, I'm just at a loss for words. Hence wtf.
Try thinking instead of reacting. That isn't what I said.
1) From the perspective of the United States and Soviet Union 1942 is early war given that the war started in 1941 for both of them.
2) As a secondary deal I compared it to some early war fighters, including a couple 1942 fighters, to show that while it is a 1942 fighter its performance is really sub-par for 1942.
Here is a list of 1942 fighters, some of which we lack, as a comparison:
A6M3
Bf109G-2
Fw190A-4
Ki-43-II
Ki-44-I
Mosquito F.Mk II
P-38F
Spitfire F.Mk IX
Typhoon Mk Ib
Which of those would you take the Yak-7B over?
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Which of those would you take the Yak-7B over?
From a certain context, it does not matter. On occasion, some like to fly very underrated planes against late war monsters.
Crazy great fun shooting down an LA7 in a P-40e for instance.
Slade :salute
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Well yes, but I think the point Karnak is trying to make is that the Yak-7B is very much an EW plane, both in respect to the period of the war (for its country of origin) in which it served, and its capability in combat.
A C.202 would be very capable of dealing with one, as would a 109E, or a P-40. A 109G-2 will take it apart with ease, and a Spit IX will tear it to shreds.
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Well yes, but I think the point Karnak is trying to make is that the Yak-7B is very much an EW plane, both in respect to the period of the war (for its country of origin) in which it served, and its capability in combat.
A C.202 would be very capable of dealing with one, as would a 109E, or a P-40. A 109G-2 will take it apart with ease, and a Spit IX will tear it to shreds.
The C.202 would be a challenge, but the difference is less than one might think. The 109E is slower at the heights the game is played. I think the Yak is superior to the P-40, any model. Faster, better climb and it turns well enough. The Ki-43-II can be ignored, as can the A6M3. The Yak can break off at will. We have no idea how the Ki-44 might stack up, but I would expect the Yak to be much tougher than expected. The 190-A4, certainly faster and better climbing. However, get it slow near the Yak-7B and it may suffer for it. Like 190A-4, the Spit IX and 109G-2 are in a different league, both being able to hold their own with 1944/45 fighters. That said, the Yak cannot be written off simply because a good pilot can beat an average pilot in anything under many circumstances.
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I don't think the Yak-7B has the performance to just arbitrarily break off from the Ki-43 and A6M3. It is faster, and if it starts with the E advantage can be flown smartly and retain the ability to break off if the fight starts to go against it, but if the Japanese fighter starts with the E advantage the Yak-7B is not in a good place as its speed advantage isn't so high as to allow nearly effortless disengagement as, say, an La-7 could.
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The C.202 would be a challenge, but the difference is less than one might think. The 109E is slower at the heights the game is played. I think the Yak is superior to the P-40, any model. Faster, better climb and it turns well enough. The Ki-43-II can be ignored, as can the A6M3. The Yak can break off at will. We have no idea how the Ki-44 might stack up, but I would expect the Yak to be much tougher than expected. The 190-A4, certainly faster and better climbing. However, get it slow near the Yak-7B and it may suffer for it. Like 190A-4, the Spit IX and 109G-2 are in a different league, both being able to hold their own with 1944/45 fighters. That said, the Yak cannot be written off simply because a good pilot can beat an average pilot in anything under many circumstances.
The C.202 is about the same level as the Yak, but with weaker armament.
The 109E I feel is far far better turning, and as Karnak stated, the Yak cannot simply disengage at will; it needs an opportunity. The P-40E isn't that bad, even if it doesn't have any real advantage it would still be capable of fighting a Yak-7.
And the Yak-7 is a contemporary of the 190A-4, Spit IX, and G-2.
And you can most certainly write off the Yak-7B if you yourself are a decent pilot in a late war aircraft, or even most midwar aircraft.
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I don't think the Yak-7B has the performance to just arbitrarily break off from the Ki-43 and A6M3. It is faster, and if it starts with the E advantage can be flown smartly and retain the ability to break off if the fight starts to go against it, but if the Japanese fighter starts with the E advantage the Yak-7B is not in a good place as its speed advantage isn't so high as to allow nearly effortless disengagement as, say, an La-7 could.
We need to have a fair comparison... Co-Altitude. I've killed a Me 262 with an SBD, catching him low and slow. Clearly, one cannot analyse performance unless there is a baseline as a reliable reference.
Co-Altitude, an A6M3 or Ki-43-II can't do much. The Yak is far faster at all altitudes, especially the deck to 12k. I've flown hundreds of duels, Zero vs just about everything. The Yak's speed advantage is insurmountable if the Yak pilot is half-way smart. The Yak pilot can literally toy with the Zeke or Oscar. He cannot turn with them, he cannot outclimb them in a max rate climb. He can, however, pick and choose how and when he engages. Both of the Japanese fighters cannot keep up in a high-speed climb. Set your climb rate to 2k/min and simply leave... Split-s and wave goodbye. Disengage at will. However, beating them is not difficult either. Merge at 5k. Yak is 40 mph faster. As they pass, 95% of the time the Zero/Ki-43 will do a hard reverse, burning of what little speed it had. The Yak extends out 1k to 2k and goes pure vertical. The Yak rolls out 2k to 3k above the enemy. The Yak builds his E a bit in a slight climb and then rolls in. Rinse and repeat as required. The Japanese fighters are totally defensive, and sooner or later, will get popped.
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Here is a list of 1942 fighters, some of which we lack, as a comparison:
A6M3
Bf109G-2
Fw190A-4
Ki-43-II
Ki-44-I
Mosquito F.Mk II
P-38F
Spitfire F.Mk IX
Typhoon Mk Ib
Which of those would you take the Yak-7B over?
I'd probably take the Yak-7B over the zeke and Ki-43 in an arena gameplay or scenario. But then again, I'd take our 1943 Mossie VI over any 1944-45 plane we have - and I do. I am just biased like that.
But I see your point. It can be enabled in early war arena and the skies will not fall. That is unlike some other 1942 planes - enable the Typhoon in EW and it will run over everything else in there.
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I'd probably take the Yak-7B over the zeke and Ki-43 in an arena gameplay or scenario.
(http://www.butnotyet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Heresy-Stamp.png)
Madness and heresy.
A6M3 is the far superior plane, but admit I have some biases in this area. ;)
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We need to have a fair comparison... Co-Altitude. I've killed a Me 262 with an SBD, catching him low and slow. Clearly, one cannot analyse performance unless there is a baseline as a reliable reference.
Co-Altitude, an A6M3 or Ki-43-II can't do much. The Yak is far faster at all altitudes, especially the deck to 12k. I've flown hundreds of duels, Zero vs just about everything. The Yak's speed advantage is insurmountable if the Yak pilot is half-way smart. The Yak pilot can literally toy with the Zeke or Oscar. He cannot turn with them, he cannot outclimb them in a max rate climb. He can, however, pick and choose how and when he engages. Both of the Japanese fighters cannot keep up in a high-speed climb. Set your climb rate to 2k/min and simply leave... Split-s and wave goodbye. Disengage at will. However, beating them is not difficult either. Merge at 5k. Yak is 40 mph faster. As they pass, 95% of the time the Zero/Ki-43 will do a hard reverse, burning of what little speed it had. The Yak extends out 1k to 2k and goes pure vertical. The Yak rolls out 2k to 3k above the enemy. The Yak builds his E a bit in a slight climb and then rolls in. Rinse and repeat as required. The Japanese fighters are totally defensive, and sooner or later, will get popped.
That relies on the Yak-7b pilot being better. A good A6M or Ki-43 pilot will know the Yak is faster but climbs worse and will work to gain altitude over the Yak. At that point the winner will be decided on who is attacking and who is defending. If the Yak has to contest the air controled by the A6M or Ki-43 it will lose, but if the A6M or Ki-43 has to stop the Yak from going somewhere else they will fail.
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Speed was the dominating factor of aerial combat in the times of eyeball mk.I and guns only. That's what made the Pony and Jug so great, despite being mediocre (or bad even) in all other aspects of performance. With speed you can escape a bad situation, and deny your enemy the opportunity to do the same.
AH discussions often focus too much on 1-on-1 or "fair fights". Fair fights are rare in real life, and every soldier strives to make it as unfair as possible to his advantage. In real life a flight of 5 Yaks being jumped by 20 Zekes would dive away and escape. OTOH, 20 Yaks jumping 5 Zekes would RTB with five kill marks to paint on their fuselages.
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That relies on the Yak-7b pilot being better.
This is arguable but I don't think that managing to keep separation in a faster plane automatically makes the pilot better than the pilot who can't catch a faster plane with a slower one.
A good A6M or Ki-43 pilot will know the Yak is faster but climbs worse and will work to gain altitude over the Yak. At that point the winner will be decided on who is attacking and who is defending. If the Yak has to contest the air controled by the A6M or Ki-43 it will lose, but if the A6M or Ki-43 has to stop the Yak from going somewhere else they will fail.
The above assumes 1 vs 1 situation. In a squadron vs squadron engagement, the squadron with a faster fighter should be able to contest and win the aerial superiority from the squadron flying the slower fighter.
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That relies on the Yak-7b pilot being better.
This.
Before Widewing comes on and posts that I'm insane...he is correct. The Yak has the speed cards and can choose when and if to engage, period. But the whole thing falls apart in the pressure-cooker ego world of AH.
I used to be shocked at the number of MA and DA pilots who will choose to turn with a A6M<x> in a low speed dogfight while flying a Spit9 or 16, N1K2, even a K4! Not so much anymore. Many are simply new and/or stupid:
"But.....but.....but... the Spit16 is the greatest cartoon fighter plane EVAH! I PWN IN IT! I CAN TURN WITH THIS STUPID ZEKE!!!! DIE IN FLAMES ZEKE!! DIEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eee! <towered>".
:D
That being said, I find that even the good sticks will barrel in thinking superior ACM and their experience will win the day against the 'noob' in the A6M close in....I always get a kick when I manage to nail one. :devil
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The Yak-7B is about to get its feet wet against its Luftwaffe counterparts in November during FSO.
This thread has been a quite interesting read and has got me a little worried, specifically regarding the 109G-2 vs the Yak-7B. Might have to do some more tinkering for balance.
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If the Yak-7 is the Allies' primary fighter, you'll need to give them a decent sized advantage. The Yak-7 is utter crap compared to the G-2.
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109G-2 vs Yak-7B isn't war... It's murder. There's a reason the German aces on the Russian front had such enormous kill tallies... The Russian front is where the Iron Crosses grow... on trees.
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Yep, completely different capabilities between the two:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=132&p2=14&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=132&p2=14&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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The Yak-7B is about to get its feet wet against its Luftwaffe counterparts in November during FSO.
This thread has been a quite interesting read and has got me a little worried, specifically regarding the 109G-2 vs the Yak-7B. Might have to do some more tinkering for balance.
Tinkering may be an understatement.... May even need to add the Yak-9T with 20mm option only.
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Yep, completely different capabilities between the two:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=132&p2=14&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=132&p2=14&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Yikes.
Those graphs pretty much say it all.
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If it is a summer/fall 1942 event, the Luftwaffe should field a mix of 109F-4, 109G-2 and 190A-5 (representing A-3 and A-4 which had similar performance). The 109F was in production till May 1942 and soldiered on into 1943.
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Btw. the 190A-5 should not get any under-wing ord options as that was one of the major changes from the A-3 and A-4. Just centerline ords. Guns are the same for all models.
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Well... the moment has arrived...Yak7 will square off against the Bf 109E4, Bf 109F4, Bf 109G2 and the Bf 110C in FSO tonight. Come join us!
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No 190s ?
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No 190s ?
From what I gathered, the fw190 did not see action at Stalingrad. It was involved in the northern and central fronts at the time.
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Ok then. :)
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If the Yak-7 is the Allies' primary fighter, you'll need to give them a decent sized advantage. The Yak-7 is utter crap compared to the G-2.
i'm sure it's years ago but I remember mixing with early yaks (1 and 7s) while flying a 109G-2 in IL2 game.
the 109G-2 in that game had no 1.42 ata wep.
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I think a telling measure of the Yak-7's performance is that the 109F-4 is inarguably the superior of the two. Its faster at all altitudes, climbs better, has more ammunition, and has more flight time. Its also pretty maneuverable.
IMO, the only chance the Allies have is vulching the He-111's on landing and takeoff. I haven't read the specifics for the He-111, but if they can fly at any reasonable altitude, any escort will be highly effective.