Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Voss on March 07, 2001, 12:37:00 PM
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The name Aces High suggests you intend for people to fly smart, yet your scoring system requires that they furball and fly buffs, and tanks, and PT boats? Is this what your customers want? For you to decide how they play online? I know, you have a bunch of guys that like to furball, yet they are all in the TA fighting (or worse yet, HTH), while the MA sees a bunch of very upset users.
What are you afraid of? There has never been a "peripheral fight only" frame of mind in any of us. Where you get the concept that fights would thin out escapes me. In ten years of online flying I haven't seen that. Oh, they try it at first, sure! No one has the patience to keep it up for long, though, and you will always have dedicated buff groups, cavalry, and sea butts.
I think you need to reconsider the way things are *ranked* here. As for me, I am going back to the Mustang ONLY! No damn buffs, vehicles, or sissy boats. When the enemies thin out, I log.
Yes, I think the scoring system here is stupid! The *only* thing you can do to make me happy is make fighting paramount, regardless of style, and then remove time from the equation. Time in the equation doesn't *even* make sense.
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Well, if you don't like it, why don't you create your own sim? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <G,D,R>
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So.. you only fly for score? Do you need a scoring system to dictate your choice of planes or style? Does an arbritrary ranking somehow make any difference at all? If you want to fly P-51s, should you be worried that you'll never have a high enough score to command the CV?
AKDejaVu
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LOL Rip!
It's in HTC's best interests to have more folks online as much as they can. Therefore, I expect the score and ranking system to reflect that. It seems it mostly does so.
In the edited words of Yoda if he was an AH master: "Score matters not. Judge me by my score do you? Hmmmmm?"
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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I have riped voss in a few threads but in this case hes right on!
I dont buff i dont bomb. I am sick of seeing guys with a sub 1.0 k/d ranked ahead of my 4.0 because they fly so much more.
I came here to fly a fighter not a bomber or a tank. Does that make me a bad guy?
EYE
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Quit your whining! You whine about everything! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Gotta agree Voss, time should have no place in the ranking scheme. It's interested a side note, but not as anything that affects rank. I've been mainly flying the 51D (B when it comes out) and I try to fly to live. Been doing a decent job of it too. But the guys who launch from a vulched field, get a kill or two, die, wash, rinse, repeat have a serious advantage in thier ranking because of the kills/time stat.
As for the ranking in general, compare only the ranking you're interested in. Look at only the fighter ranks to see how your P-51 stacks up against the other 1000+ ranked pilots. The only thing the overall ranking does is allow you to take/keep control of the task groups, which is no big deal. Guess it also has a touch of bragging rights for those who are ranked high in everything.
It seems that the weighting of the stats is skewed. See my thread in the gameplay/feedboard about the weighting of stats.
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No, Deja (previous pointed at Rip), I don't care about score. I want my squad to do well, though. Obviously, it won't be in the ranks. We will, though, take the P-51 top ten position from now on.
The ranking is causing a conflict of interest, though. I want it stopped.
<edit>
You are wrong, too, Leph. I have talked to a ton of guys online that don't even know the ranks are there! Go figure.
Thanks, Cavey.
</edit>
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[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Score matters only if you need the ego boost. (of course, showing your squad as #1 is cool too)
I think that what the point system rewards are the more balanced pilots. If someone can fly a fighter fairly well, and a bomber excellent, then why should they be lower then a straight fighter pilot?
Scorepotatos. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Beurling:
I came here to fly a fighter not a bomber or a tank. Does that make me a bad guy?
No, but it does make you score-obsessed. Do you somehow think that people who look at your k/d ratio and then at your overall rank will dismiss you because of the latter? Doubtful.
If you're a real menace to the arena, folks will know it regardless of any ranking system. Just relax, have fun, and kill everything in sight.
-- Todd/DMF
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Voss, as long as I'm around your squad won't be taking the top 10 rankings in the P51.
Also, I don't understand what's wrong with the ranking system? If you are looking at overall rank that is useless. Just look at fighter rank if that's all you do is fly fighters. What's the problem?
And shouldn't kills/time be considered? If you get more kills with a small amount of time that should help you. If all you do is fly around at 20k and wait for that one easy kill you can dive down on then you deserve to be ranked last.
fscott
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No, Deja (previous pointed at Rip), I don't care about score. I want my squad to do well, though. Obviously, it won't be in the ranks. We will, though, take the P-51 top ten position from now on.
That's good. I will continue to track the number of kills.. I'll eventually add the K/D also, but that'll take the addition of some filters I haven't had the time to write. These sound like the things you are looking for. Excel in an aircraft... fly to live... fly in groups... fly smart.
I do, however, believe that there are very few people that want to fly the way the 13th does. Your squad is definately in the minority. Surely you must know this.
I do agree that the k/time is something of a worthless stat. It holds no real relevance. I just don't see it as being the "alright, I'VE HAD IT!" ammo that you seem to be presenting it as.
The ranking is causing a conflict of interest, though. I want it stopped.
So? Who the hell are you to make this kind of demand? Who the hell are you to dictate what is and is not important in regards to tallying score?
Well.. one thing is for sure, when you decide to come back.. you definately make your presence known.
Sheesh.
AKDejaVu
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Would be nice to see some kind of mission scoring. A ranking based on the percentage of time a squadrons missions meets objectives. Or some kind of bonus "attack" points for people who join a field capture mission and destroy targets at the target field, etc.
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time cannot be removed from teh equation
otherwise i can log on, for 1 sortie a month, get 10 kills, go land, and be the #1 pilot for the entire tour. Rediculous.
As for everything counting, well tahts the way it has to be. I cant think of another way. If you guys wanna only fly p51s fine, do your runstang thing. 8 of the top 10 badass pilots people ranked in that post yesterday have a K/D under 2.0, but people considered them much more dangerous than the pilots with a k/d of 8? i wonder why.
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Sad thing is, those "scorepotatos" will be amongst the few that will be able to use the perk planes.
Mr. I fly Pony only and Run when in trouble + fight to live may get 6 kill sorties without dying.. but it may also take him 20 minutes of flying. Compare that to Mr I fly N1k and HO/UFO/Vulch everyone on that de-acked enemy field that gets 20 kills in 10 minutes, even if he died 8 times, he will still be getting more perks per time unit than the pony guy.
Later on, the n1k guy is found in an me-262 enjoying his quake-earned perks while the pony driver is still in his pony trying to run away from the 262.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
Just relax, have fun, and kill everything in sight.
-- Todd/DMF
This is a man who knows what it's all about. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by fscott:
Voss, as long as I'm around your squad won't be taking the top 10 rankings in the P51.
Also, I don't understand what's wrong with the ranking system? If you are looking at overall rank that is useless. Just look at fighter rank if that's all you do is fly fighters. What's the problem?
And shouldn't kills/time be considered? If you get more kills with a small amount of time that should help you. If all you do is fly around at 20k and wait for that one easy kill you can dive down on then you deserve to be ranked last.
fscott
Anyone can grab a cannon kite and point&click thier way to alot of kills in a short time at a base that's under attack. And let's not forget vulching, I've watched guys (in aforementioned cannon kites) run up streaks of 15+ in less than 5 minutes at a verra hotly contested base. Every time they reverse for a pass they pick up at least one, sometimes 2 or 3 if they hit the spawn point on the runway just right.
Now let's penalize the guys who want to fly to live and take the time to climb to 20-25k and head for air between the base under attack and the base launching the attack. Then let's penalize them for the skill it takes to dance thier kite around up that high to saddle up and get the kill. Then let's penalize them for taking the time to return to base and land/rearm&refuel.
Kills/time should not weigh heavily, if at all, on fighter ranking. Everyone loves to scream this is a simulation. When did how many kills in x amount time matter in the real world, except maybe to the buff drivers praying the escort fights got all the bandits before the bandits got the formation.
All kills/time does is reward the furball-dinnae care of I die pilot with a ranking that isn't necessarily commenserate of thier skill.
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Cave, I'm missing your point, because anyone can grab a P51D and fly in 'safe mode'(aka, run when you're not at an advantage) and get a 42 to 1 K/D ratio... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
OTOH, no one but you cares about your rank, so why even pay attention to scores? Fly, kill, enjoy the sim for what it is..
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Hi DMF (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Im writeing this just to you.
Please understand its not about score. Its about doing your best. Its about improveing each tour.
We have been through this before. You do not understand how i feel about stats. My fun Dmf, what drives me in this game is to beat my previous PB not someone elses. In short to improve.
You can auger every run i dont care. I know who you are and that your good.
This is not aw though. Most dont auger if they can land a run. Your style is a exception in ah i think DMF.
In aw3 Quakers ruled. Do they here?
EYE
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10 years of online flying and hasn't learned to forget the scoring crap. Oh dear.
// fats
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
So? Who the hell are you to make this kind of demand? Who the hell are you to dictate what is and is not important in regards to tallying score?
AKDejaVu
Deja, reading for comprehension might help.
I am C.O. of the 13th TAS. That's who the hell I am! The 13th follows my frag, and not HT's! That's my point.
fscott, you better get busy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Rip, did lazs give you a piece of his blanket? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<edit>
fats2, (interesting) score has a lot to do with rank, and thus perks. We should have a level field with all other users. We won't, since we are dedicated to the Mustang. That's just not right.
</edit>
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[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Voss said:
You are wrong, too, Leph. I have talked to a ton of guys online that don't even know the ranks are there! Go figure.
So, what am I wrong about again?
Here is what I said:
It's in HTC's best interests to have more folks online as much as they can. Therefore, I expect the score and ranking system to reflect that. It seems it mostly does so.
It seems to me the scoring system does encourage or reward those that fly more in the context of the scoring system. How many people "know about" it is immaterial. The fact is, some folks do care about score, and for those folks, I believe the scoring system encourages them to do a bit of everything, and to spend a lot of time playing. I'm not claiming everyone is motivated by "score" or "rank", just that for those that are, the system encourages them to do things that HTC would like to reward, namely participating in a variety of different roles, and spending lots of time online. You may not agree with it, but it makes sense.
FWIW, telling a developer they are doing something "all WRONG" is not the best way to get a change made. A little diplomacy goes a long way if you are really interested in getting something changed. Next time I would suggest some carefully worded constructive criticism if you are looking for results.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Last reply and I have to go do chores so I can fly tonight! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Leph, I don't think the ranks motivate people to fly more. It certainly doesn't do it for me! Check out the number one squad right now to see what I mean.
Now, if ranks were adjusted to take into account dedicated squads... Why not just penalize them for flying buffs/vehicles/boats? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mission oriented squads like us need a place, too.
<edit>
Diplomacy be damned! Hang the politicians at the door! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
We're talking customer feedback!
</edit>
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[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 03-07-2001).]
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The ranking is causing a conflict of interest, though. I want it stopped.
Please Voss, explain what this means. What conflict of interest? Conflict meaning that it doesn't encourage people to fly the way you believe they should? Conflict meaning that people flying the way you feel they should are not being rewarded accordingly?
Please explain it. I have this horrible problem with taking things litteraly.
I am C.O. of the 13th TAS. That's who the hell I am!
That's great. Really neat. Now, maybe you could take a little time to tell me how this in any way shape or form entitles you to say "I want this stopped now" in regards to the scoring system? Or even in regards to other people's flying?
If it is about your squad, then I guess that credential carries some weight... but then this all should be taking place in your squad forum eh? If its not about your squad.. then it doesn't mean toejam, but thanks for stating it so clearly.
AKDejaVu
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Geeze, deja, I thought you read me better then that.
I mean it is causing a conflict of interest within my squad. We want to do well in the ranks, but we also want to fly only the Mustang.
Do I have to spell everything out? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have been guilty too (check stats), but no more.
(Voss has gone offline)
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do what i did....leave and play the box sims.
B17 2 is quite a blast...and you can fly the fighters too.
Ill be back for 1.06 though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Voss, if recognition is what you are seeking, TAS 13th had it long before you were the CO, so in this community, the TAS13th is already viewed as the best P51D squadron online. Happy now? Pack your ego and get online so I can shoot your prettythang down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I am sure your stating it is all Wrong & demanding it be changed will go a long, long ways. If ya don't like it, don't fly.
BgMAW
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LMAO at this whole thread!
Beurling wrote:
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In aw3 Quakers ruled. Do they here?
EYE
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When I see a thread mentioning the next scenario get only a few responses and no heated discussion, and a thread about score (of all things) receiving so much attention and debate, I have to say, 'Yes they do!'
anRky
-Ih8ubb
'Get rid of the bucket!'
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why am i scared because i find myself agreeing with akdejavu more and more
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I mean it is causing a conflict of interest within my squad.
No, because that is exactly how I took it. You see, you say this then exclaim that you want it changed now. You exclaim that here.. when adressing HTC and their scoring system. Not while adressing your squad. That is where you forget that you really aren't anyone special when you step into this forum.
We want to do well in the ranks, but we also want to fly only the Mustang.
Ah.. being ranked 11th in fighter ops isn't really good enough for you and your squad? I went through your squad's scores. It seems that certain aspects of the scoring system are already being manipulated, such as re-arms at hotpads not counting as a sortie. Do you feel that scoring should be fair or just adjusted to make your squad look better?
Maybe we could also have portions of the scoring system that alot for pilots that only engage when they have a numbers or altitude advantage? Of course, that's just flying smart... but does it encourage more people to come to the arena?
I'm sorry for you and your squad because you aren't ranked in the Top 10 of fighter squads. I'm sorry that you have picked a very specific style of flight that doesn't really fit into the scoring system. I'm sorry that you, like so many others these days, feel that things need to change to accomodate you.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-07-2001).]
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rank schmank.
Can my score be updated from now on to say 'Next to last'?
(P.S. I still have fun!)
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Originally posted by Voss:
We want to do well in the ranks, but we also want to fly only the Mustang.
Then only care about squad ranks as fighters.
BgMAW
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About this only thing I find wrong with the stats is that one-man squads can be at the top of the squad list.
Not very fair, skews the stats.
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LOL...score! I don't really care about score but I do like the way so many things are tracked. Seems that anyone can look at the stats and follow the ones he is interested in. What's wrong with that.
As for this pomposity of feeling that your style is not being ranked high enough... Who cares? Some may feel that flying P51's around at mega alts looking for the unwary (no matter how long that takes) is not a skill that should particularly earn any extra consideration. Perhaps time to kill is worth considering since those people put themselves at risk much more often than your 6 kills in seven and a half hours!
Really tho... i don't care. The best thing is like I said.... Just track as many different stats as possible and let people do with em as they please.
lazs
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I couldnt give a monkies about my 'score' or 'rank' its the stats that im interested in Hit percentage, k/d, sorties/landing, etc. It is the only real qauntatative measure of your performance in the role you like to do - whether thats buffing, furballing, Boomin 'n zoomin, tanking - whatever.
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Seems to be a fundimental misunderstanding in how the point system works. This is not the 100m fly. it is the 2000m medley.
There is no "weighting" in the scoreing. all the stats get an equal piece of the total score. Should they be weighted..I think that some of the skill stats like accuracy should be worth a little more, but then you get people gaming the game for that.
I have seen the top bomber pilots have accuracy scores that were astronomical. But death rates that were horrible. I deduced that they were not defending themselves while flying buffs except at crazy close ranges. The kill to death did not matter for bomber scores but the accuracy did. So they didnt defend themselves.
You dont need many hours of playing to be a top pilot.Some of the higher scoreing pilots have fewer then 10 hours this tour. I personly love playing all facets of the game and my play fits well into the game scoreing system. People that only want to fly one plane and more importantly one type of mission with it will have to be extrordinary successful in the particular stats that are based on that to show up in the top level of the score page.
This game is a pentathalon. You are recognised most for being a accoplished generalist on the score page.
But most people that talk about hot pilots dont care where in the score roster the pilot is. I am often rated highty but am only fairly good in ACM. My current score puts me about 100th in fighter rankings. that is very accurate. The guys that are above me are probably better then me at ACM and it shows in that stat. My varied fighter intrest and the multitude of mission types I fly put me at a disadvantage vs many of the top pilots.
People that stress the preeminance of one stat(kill to death in fighters) vs all others miss a very important part of the score system. In maximizing that stat you are ignoring that in real war you recieved orders. You have to try to accomplish them and probably risk your life foolishly to do so. By ignoring the score system you are flying the war without orders and your stats reflect the fact. People that fight HTCs war for them get the medals and get the score recognition. For whatever that is worth.
War isnt smart, strato vulches might keep you alive to get home but they do not progress the war aims of your country and are of only minimal score value. The guys that strato hunt and have hight scores in other areas often gain the bomber and vehicle points in the wee hours under suspicios circumstances. In the main hours of play there are few safe ways to bomb. Especialy on the current map.
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Geez Lazs... I'm finding myself beginning to agree with you more and more.
This must be stopped! :-)
-SW
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying: Just relax, have fun, and kill everything in sight. -- Todd/DMF
This is a man who knows what it's all about. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cause he is wise in the ways of the online (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think I've "known" DMF for a little over 3 years and he's one of the folk who "get it." He's earned respect from myself and many others not only for his skill as an online "pilot" and but for who he is as a person also.
-Westy
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
All kills/time does is reward the furball-dinnae care of I die pilot with a ranking that isn't necessarily commenserate of thier skill.
How does this differ from patient pilots with a high K/D ratio? It's a tradeoff one makes based on flying style, and my guess is that AH rewards excellence in both styles by including K/D and time per kill into the equation.
If you want quicker kills, fly into more furballs and climb less. If you want higher K/D, take the time to climb above fights and avoid sticky situations.
-- Todd/DMF
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Originally posted by Beurling:
In aw3 Quakers ruled. Do they here?
Hi, EYE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Keep in mind that similar flying styles had similar levels of success in AW3, it's just that stats were computed differently. The best way to judge yourself against yourself isn't by looking at your overall ranking in relation to others. Rather, look at all of your stats from tour to tour and compare them against each other. Ignore rank.
So if you want to measure improvement, see if your K/D ratio has improved from, say, 2:1 to 4:1 over the last three tours. In that same time, even if your overall rank dropped from 15 to 100, you can be fairly certain that you've improved yourself regardless.
-- Todd/DMF
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Voss,
AH is not trying to be WWII Online, the non-flyable stuff, (in my opion) is there to give a relief to the pilots so they don't get burned out, people that are not that good at aireal combat but want to stay with AH for whatever reason, and to attarct another type of people.
Also, If you don't like it, go elsewere.
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So some of you guys want HTC to change scoring system that it fits better to your flight/combat style?
Sounds kinda childish don't you think?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
How does this differ from patient pilots with a high K/D ratio? It's a tradeoff one makes based on flying style, and my guess is that AH rewards excellence in both styles by including K/D and time per kill into the equation.
If you want quicker kills, fly into more furballs and climb less. If you want higher K/D, take the time to climb above fights and avoid sticky situations.
-- Todd/DMF
See the thread in the gameplay/feedback board about the weight of stats on rank. I've listed two pilots' stats there. Express your opinion on who should be the higher ranked.
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<back now>
Deja, get a grip! I didn't come here to whine like lazs who always has alt on me, BTW. I came here to obviate something I think HT missed. There are users online that don't fly furballs or use every weapon available (sounds like Quake actually). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I just ask that this be examined with some thought to other styles. You put words in my mouth when you said I want it changed now. I never said that. I was warned ahead of time, that this would never change. Still, it is obvious that I am not alone on this issue.
And WTF is it with you and *thinking* I'm asking for special treatment? You on cold medicine again? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vey well said pongo.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Well, if you don't like it, why don't you create your own sim
subtle - i didnt miss that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Agree with Voss.
The way the various Ranks is put together (by a number of entities) it is impossiple to see through the furball dust.What is wrong with simple and comprehensive stats on each plane (maybe as a supplement to the current).
And yes: have deleted 1 account today.Next about to go.
danish
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Come on guys, it is just a game! You should be here to have fun.
If you have fun by scoring points, play by the rules to maximize you points.
If you have fun flying plane "x" fly plane "x".
Of course, if you have fun whining because the rules don't let you score points flying plane "x", I guess you are free to whine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have fun flying (and getting shot down) in anything, anytime, anywhere as long as the flight model is "realistic" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Stephen the Eagle
aka streak in HtH (unable to afford MA yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif))
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"But Captn Ahab er Voss, I did see a white whale!"
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Milo
3./JG2
"Speed is the cushion of sloppiness"
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Sorry, climbing for 20 minutes before fighting should not be rewarded. That's not flying smart, that's flying BORING. Parasitic tactics like that should be discouraged by the scoring system.
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Deja, get a grip! I didn't come here to whine like lazs
Kinda think lazs and I are on the same page here. Probably for slightly different reasons though. Nice try by bringing that up.
Now.. as far as not coming here to whine:
HT you are ranking this all WRONG!
I think the scoring system here is stupid!
I want it stopped.
I added the "now". Guess that was uncalled for. I'm sure you meant "I want it stopped... some day... if you don't mind".
Talk about needing to get a grip.
AKDejaVu
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Kill red planes, tanks, boats. Have fun. Don't worry about the scorekeepers. Be your own judge of your performance. squeakin about what the other guy did or didn't get via his style of flying vs yours accomplishes nothin... and never will.
If yah wanna massage yer fat heads; do it behind closed doors and spare us all the embarrasment of your dissapointment.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hang
"Turn to kill, not to engage."
Commander 'Willie' Driscoll, USNR
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Well, if you don't like it, why don't you create your own sim? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <G,D,R>
....anyone catch the license number on that bus?? OUCH!
SwampRat
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Well well....
Looks like another thread full of "you should fly like I do".
This is my routine:
Take off, point nose towards large red sector bars. Engage auto climb.
Proceed to the basement (my wifey won't let me smoke upstairs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )and fire up a Winston.
Return to puter and go level to engage all of the bad guys....alt of entry into fight on average, 15k-18k. Not 30k or 25k.
HTC rewards balanced game play...they want folks to get involved...the last thing he needs is folks that fly to live...never be any fights in their opinion.
Do I think the scoring system is fair? Probably. Does it reward someone like me who doesn't fly buffs or drive things with tires and tread or that floats? Not really. He did implement seperate cats for fighters which is good.
I agree with Voss that it's strange to find pilots with low k/d's and low k/s's but that rank high because they get kills quickly and then die.
I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never rank highly again...chk my ranking for tours previous to tour 10...I know how to get there, just not interested anymore.
I try hard to get along with everyone...too bad it's not a two way street with some of you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ltr
Ice
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Holy toejam!
I've got Ego-Envy!
Originally posted by Voss:
Deja, reading for comprehension might help.
I am C.O. of the 13th TAS. That's who the hell I am! The 13th follows my frag, and not HT's! That's my point.
fscott, you better get busy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Rip, did lazs give you a piece of his blanket? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<edit>
fats2, (interesting) score has a lot to do with rank, and thus perks. We should have a level field with all other users. We won't, since we are dedicated to the Mustang. That's just not right.
</edit>
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Deja, you still don't get it. I was refering to the pursuit of squad rank. I was not demanding HT change anything. I point out that another approach might make more people happy, make things more lucrative, and make the ranks even more accurate.
I think you go around trying to find fault in what people say (or at least Voss), and I don't know why you have to do that. No hard feelings.
Next camp I'll hunt you up so you can experience my ACM first hand. It'll be fun for both of us and maybe then you'll be a friend. lazs is a lost cause.
Vulcan, do you have a stage act? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yeah its called "Vulcan makes Voss's P51 lick his Tiffy's booties"
Originally posted by Voss:
Vulcan, do you have a stage act? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Voss:
Next camp I'll hunt you up so you can experience my ACM first hand. It'll be fun for both of us and maybe then you'll be a friend.
Geezus.. this guy sounds just like me. Except he's dead serious.
Although you'd better bring that runstang with yas, cuz you gonna need it if you intend to hunt DJ.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Geezus.. this guy sounds just like me. Except he's dead serious.
Although you'd better bring that runstang with yas, cuz you gonna need it if you intend to hunt DJ.
-SW
heh, you don't know me too good do you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Voss:
heh, you don't know me too good do you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't need to know ya. I just need to know one thing: You are hunting a squad mate of mine... best stock up on parachutes. You gonna need 'um.
-SW
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Voss,
Why do you come into this forum and call the scoring system stupid!... tell HTC they are doing it all WRONG!... then pretend you were just trying to help?
You then make it sound as if you are upset that members in your squad do not want to fly the P-51 exclusively because of HTC's ranking system. You make it sound as if that is bad. You make it sound as if that is almost perverse.
Yet.. fighter, bomber, attack and ship statistics are tracked seperately. The rankings occur inside of those individual categories already. Why would someone need to do the others exclusively to get higher overall rank? I know.. ITS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO!
HTC isn't making it tough to lead your squad.. you are. Now, to fix things, you want to remove the current over-all system and install one that caters to your personal views of how your squad should behave. One that gives more consideration to the squad that flies the way you demand yours does. That way it will make things easier on you.
I guess it is an orinal angle, and would shock most people had you not started refering to yourself in third person:
I think you go around trying to find fault in what people say (or at least Voss)
How can you argue with someone that refers to themselves in third person? Hmmm.. let me try:
AKDejaVu goes around pointing out faults in faulty arguments. Of course, these are purely AKDejaVu's opinions, but people (or at least Voss) seem to think he is insulting the very essence of their being by disagreeing. That is what AKDejaVu does.
So.. please excuse me if the above looks clumsy.. its my first experience with refering to myself in the third person. Someday, however, I hope to be as good as you Voss.
AKDejaVu has now left.
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-07-2001).]
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"fscott, you better get busy!"
Er..yeah, come to think of it, I may not be in that top ten if I don't. I'm flying the La5n a LOT this tour, so we will see.
fscott has 47 kills and 8 deaths in the La5n.
fscott
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Very weak Deja. I ain't pretending nothing.
I said what I said and you twisted it. Yeah, it's wrong cause I ain't having no fun with the scores. Now I have to ignore it.
Stop trying to piss me off, DV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This scoring system is porked. It isn't fun for everyone, and you don't get it!
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Originally posted by funked:
Sorry, climbing for 20 minutes before fighting should not be rewarded. That's not flying smart, that's flying BORING.
It may be boring but it's realistic. Real air combat is filled with hours upon hours of boredom punctuated by mere moments of exhilaration and terror.
We can't all be Hans-Joachim Marseille.
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This scoring system is porked. It isn't fun for everyone, and you don't get it!
You think making it fun for you would make it fun for everyone. You just don't get it.
AKDejaVu
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"Diplomacy" The art of saying "nice doggie" while ya hunt up a rock.
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It doesnt much matter to me.
Cheers,
Yeager
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Last time I checked, the primary focus of any game is to have fun... though this type in particular, being a simulation, should lean heavily toward realism.
For those that argue points for climbing all day are wrong... historically, victory (or survival) tended to go to the highest and fastest flying. That is of course why high altitude bombing and escorts for those high altitude bombers were so important. Cruising unassailed at high atltitude and striking with impunity may be boring... but it is exactly what is desired for mission accomplishment and survival. Those who achieve this should be rewarded as well as any other because they would win the war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
For those that don't believe time should be a factor, which would be more effective in war: shooting down all the enemy planes in one day (including strafing his fields as the planes try to take off) or picking one off for no losses slower than the enemy's rate of production? When your country has a high production rate, it is actually standard practice to sacrifice kill-to-death ratios to speed up victory. The US cranked out plenty of obsolete equipment in WWII, and look how the Russians used numbers to overcome the Germans. Winning war means securing every advantage possible: numbers, technology, training, physical location/position, mobility, firepower, etc. Those who practice proven real-world strategies and tactics should be rewarded.
Now if Aces High is more game than sim... reward only reflexes and stick, rudder, and button skills... but I think you would be happier playing Quake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I personally could care less about the score as long as I get to fly with this great bunch of guys.
Stephen the Eagle
[This message has been edited by streakeagle (edited 03-07-2001).]
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I would of rather seen a commanders chair in AH than a score sheet.
What is more benificial? The ability to rank yourself as a fighter jock on a decent connection? What about team play? Ability to work together? Squadron rankings?
Being ex-military, acting as a loner got you either:
a) a bullet in the back of your head during combat/exercise
b) beind singled out as not-a-team-player and shunned to the point he leaves.
AH should be about team play, not game play. But, that's just my utopia, not reality here in our QUAKERS HIGH online arena.
Voss is right, the scoring system rewards the individual in a rather precarious manner. How about a nice battle commanders position for each team - controls ships, plans missions, plans CAP, calls out intercepts, etc etc. Nice gui would round it out too.
Vruth
403 Bomber Sqn.
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Dmf awhile back i thought i saw you were not flying in the ma. If this is still the case surely your flying h2h?
Next tour im going back to h2h for awhile. If your ever there and i am to we should fly a few. I would learn something im sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S> Dead+ see ya
EYE
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Awright! I've been hearing about this "everyone" creep in a dozen threads.
Who is everyone? Does he fly under that name? or a shadow handle? And if AH pisses him off so much? why's he still here?
What? "everyone" includes me? Ah, nope haven't a opinion on that, havent given you one on that, couldn't give a sh@t actually.
Note; this is the part where folks who wish to speak for "everyone" usually tell everyone to STFU, because "no one" (is that his real handle?) wants to hear it.
Funny how that works.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Yeah right Vruth....I just spent 8 hrs at a job with somebody telling me what to do, I come home to kill some time and blow off steam and now you want to make me take orders from some pansie-ass wanna-be virtual general who is gonna tell me what and when and where to fly?
No thanks, bud. Think it would be better to stay at work and get the OT.
If you want that then you need to go somewhere else and get it. Have you heard of the new one coming out... VWII Online? Its the best thing to come along since sliced bread. And you can be a general in there just like everybody else.
Maybe you should give them a try.
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<quietly moves over to slings side of the room>
Ahh Vruth, u ever hear bout that boat called the Bounty?
Originally posted by sling322:
Yeah right Vruth....I just spent 8 hrs at a job with somebody telling me what to do, I come home to kill some time and blow off steam and now you want to make me take orders from some pansie-ass wanna-be virtual general who is gonna tell me what and when and where to fly?
No thanks, bud. Think it would be better to stay at work and get the OT.
If you want that then you need to go somewhere else and get it. Have you heard of the new one coming out... VWII Online? Its the best thing to come along since sliced bread. And you can be a general in there just like everybody else.
Maybe you should give them a try.
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nm
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
"Diplomacy" The art of saying "nice doggie" while ya hunt up a rock.
I like It! Gonna Steal it! U crack me up.
<S>
Milenko
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Only one question I respectfully forward to you, Vruth; what happens in your Utopia if a guy comes in and doesn't want to be told what to do?
I seem to have gravitated to this topic much of late, and it is one that does in particular interest me. We have people that believe we need leadership, that play cannot be fun as we are having it. I'm of course especially fond of "Quakers High", the appellation of the esoteric set that want only mission-oriented play. For those who espouse that play so vigorously, where do low-time pilots figure in?
"We'll have the mission up in five minutes. Mission launches in 10 minutes!" (Let's see... that's 10 minutes tied up in the tower making sure I am ready when the "roll" command is sounded... only 50 minutes left of the hour I can alot...)
Point is, some guys are here only by the skin of their teeth time-wise. The would-be generals seem to want even that time and effort as their own.
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geeze voss... just when i thought you had got over that egomaniac, lying, fruitcake thing too... Oh well.
I don't agree often with deja or sea... I even get em mixed up but at least I have fought em and they fight hard. I don't think a weazel like you would do well to "hunt" either of em down. If I ever "had alt" on you even once I surely don't recall... I don't recall ever seeing you or even seeing your name in the buffer ever.
I killed a lota AK's and they killed me a lot and ya know why? Cause we are there in the thick of it taking chances.
I say I don't care about rank but in a way I do.... If timidity is rewarded above everything else then we will have an arena of people in the fastest plane available doing there best to hide from each other and hoping to get that risk free "guy in the bathroom" kill every couple of hours.
One of the reasons I pushed for clickable six calls was to steal kills from some of the "patience equals skill" types. Make em fite.
I think we ought to make a sortie end when your wheels touch the ground too.
lazs
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Kieran,
Don't make us send the "flight sim Gestapo" around to your house.
Surrender. You will be assimilated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You will fly the way they want you to fly.
(...but seriously folks... he has a point)
The controversy you see on these boards will be seen in games that allow one player to make choices for all players. I'm not sure how that's going to work out in a pay-to-play environment.
For a second, just imagine that on any given night one player could determine the availabilty of certain aircraft in the planeset. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't think many of us would be real enthused about that.
You think everyone is going to love it when one guys is calling the shots tactically and strategically?
These boards are probably tame in comparison to that scenario! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Another thread dedicated wasted bandwidth.
In an online community such as this the only thing you should worry about is the ol' persona, whatever it may be.
Moo.
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Voss said:
This scoring system is porked. It isn't fun for everyone, and you don't get it!
If you think it is possible to create a scoring system that is "fun for everyone", you have a very loose grasp of reality.
People have different definitions of what is "fun". You know that old saying "You can please all of the people some of the time. You can please some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people, all of the time." Lincoln wasn't it? It's the truth.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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I respect k/d over mass murder numbers..
If a guy has 500/480 k/d I will rank him lower than the guy with 20/4 k/d.
So in that respect the scoring really is wrong..
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Yeah right Vruth....I just spent 8 hrs at a job with somebody telling me what to do, I come home to kill some time and blow off steam and now you want to make me take orders from some pansie-ass wanna-be virtual general who is gonna tell me what and when and where to fly?
I think there is a command called .squelch isn't there? Like .squelch stupid_general
or .squelch fscott (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It's a utopia, that's all. No different than the people controlling the CV's...
Anyways, back to Voss... The way the system should works is that if you play more often and get good scores with 540/400 K/D, you should be rewarded differently than the person who flys maybe 10 missions and has 20/4 K/D. Seperate them into sorties? 1-50, 51-100? There is no easy solution, but the current one isn't perfect or fair either.
AND NO, I WILL NOT BE PLAYING WWII ONLINE. AH still rules. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Vruth
403 Bomber Sqn
[This message has been edited by Vruth (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Sorry, climbing for 20 minutes before fighting should not be rewarded. That's not flying smart, that's flying BORING. Parasitic tactics like that should be discouraged by the scoring system.
hmmm.. guess most of the real pilots of WWII were parasites then...
I've taken a liking to flying to live. I get a nice feeling of accomplishment when I land and refuel a few times, then finally end the sortie with 7+ kill marks on the canopy rail. Even a one hope sortie with only 2-3 kills is nicely rewarding to hit .ef on the runway of a friendly base.
While furballs erupted in arial combat, the point was not launch, kill, kill, take damange, kill, die, wash, rinse, repeat. Death was death. Final, permanent. And here I see some realism advocates standing up for a scoring system that promotes quake-type flying of launch, kill, die, launch, kill, die, ad nauseum.
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Only three things came out of this thread.
1) Lazs has no clue as to how the 13th does its work, and obviously hates me. I like that part. Lazs, your SA obviously suffers from lack of use. I knew you were there, you had no clue I was there. Your involvement in this thread has not been helpful, at all.
L
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
2) DejaVu has no more clue then Lazs, but loves to spew hatred just as much. Deja, you are driving people from replying or posting by hugging these boards and ending opinions with your rebuttals *in detail.* It would be in HTC's interest to hear from these folks too. Think about it. Your involvement in this thread has not been helpful.
3) The game scoring system, as it is now, DOES NOT make everyone happy.
Surely, there is someone interested in statistical analysis that can show the error in the current tabulation method?
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LOL Voss. It is impossible to create anything that will make EVERYONE happy. With any system, some will like it, some will not, since we all have different things that make us "happy".
You can demand utopia all you want, but it's still not possible.
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Those rainbow colored Bomb Pops on a hot summer day made me happy.
HTC...can you somehow model that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Leph, I'm not demanding anything!
HTC could make this real easy and just put into place something no one understands. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now, if someone can be helpful, is there a link to a post discussing the scoring system? Specifically, I am looking for the formulae that determines overall rank, and fighter rank (though I think the later should be obvious you never know).
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Originally posted by Ice:
Those rainbow colored Bomb Pops on a hot summer day made me happy.
HTC...can you somehow model that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ice, I don't have a big house, but we need to have a TAS together down here! Bomb Pops, Fireworks, Fire Flies, Fishing, Watermelon, Strawberries, Floating the Buffalo, wading the creek, searching the caves for Fulsum's, Diamond hunts, the Devil's Ice Box, and the list goes on. There's even a lost treasure up in Devil's Den. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I know where there's some tame Mustangs we can give the kids a ride on, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Voss go http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007850.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007850.html)
where snefens explains the thingy rather well IMO.But its still unclear how the points is awarded.
Conclusion is that the current system (at least for Fighter Ranks) rewards the furballers NoJob/NoLife.
A breakdown of the different entities in the kalculation coupled with each plane should be possible - and still keep the current stats for the "I dont care about Stats"-crowd.
danish
44 and still cant spell
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Voss your score in fighters is being hurt by your 2.5% accuracy not your kills per time.
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voss... SA? I allways know when P51's are around but like most fighter pilots I don't care unless I am alone and crippled and on the deck....
Look.... I can't help you with your personality but I can comprimise on the scoring thing... How bout.... We havb a seperate category for "best P51 squad"?
lazs
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You bet it's all wrong....I'm not ranked No. #1!!!
Oh, I thought this was the "Be Like Ron Jeremy Contest".
Sorry to burst in....carry on.
Cobra
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Pongo, I know. I've been away too long and I'm just getting back into the swing of things. Gunning ack, shooting through wind shear, and a few other things that I have never done before, ain't helping. The purpose of this thread is not to complain about my personal performance (which will improve), but to point out that the system in place needs adjustment.
Regardless, of what these few punks that have countered my position have said, I made a valid point. Anyone in this game has the right to voice their opinion here. It seems there are a few jerks that like to see their agenda in the forefront, as they engage in nothing but suppression strikes on the UBB. They are more WRONG then the ranks.
Education and intelligence seldom present enlightenment.
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You of course must accept that your agenda will be recognised(or guessed at) by the people that respond to your thread. If all you want is people to aggree with you your in the wrong place.
Accuracy in fighters is a huge thing in this game.
Some of your squad is like currently mediocre me at 5.5 %. You can get the job done there but not with the kind of sureity that you need. Many are in the 7% area which is really the sweet spot for being able to call your shots and predict the result. a few are in the deadly 10+ % range.
Best way to improve your gunnery is the TA. You dont get to shoot enought here to learn quick enough, especialy if you have "shy" flying style.
I dont think anything is more rewarding than watching that score go up. Good luck.
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And here I see some realism advocates standing up for a scoring system that promotes quake-type flying of launch, kill, die, launch, kill, die, ad nauseum.
CavemanJ, that's utterly false. The current ranking system seems to take into account all statistics. If you die a lot, you are going to have a low kill/death ratio and this will hurt you. Just like having a low kill/time ratio will hurt you if you are too timid. Just like being a one-dimensional pilot (never bombing or helping out with ground vehicles or troop delivery) will hurt you, because that doesn't help your country much.
Now if you want to talk about the perk point system, that's a different story. The perk point system seems to be just plain silly. But the rankings are pretty fair IMHO. Good all-around pilots and playes are rewarded over players with limited skills.
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...and limited time.
danish
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"No. That's incorrect. I ordered a pizza. Not this..... What??? a TIP?? Blow me; bozo. And take this lousy cheeze hero back where it came from."
*slam*
Boy; tuff ta get good take-out these days.