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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: pervert on October 21, 2013, 12:08:49 PM

Title: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: pervert on October 21, 2013, 12:08:49 PM
So for the cannon tankbusters stuka or il2 why is the range for seeing wirbs 600? I don't mind this on tanks but by the time you know a wirb is there it has already started firing at you, I take it this was a concession for the GV crowd?  :rofl
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Vinkman on October 21, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
Perv,
Yes it's a concession, but the only danger to a bomb tard is a whirb. The idea of the shorter Icon range is to make the bomb tards fly lower and slower to find targets. To make sure that lower and slower isn't just to waste time, the whirbs make the bomb tards proceed with caution.  Whirb gun range is only 1500yrds. due to the short gun range, 6K Icon for bomb tards is too far. As such, a case could be made for 1500 yrd Icon for whirb. But I think a parked camo whirb would have been much harder to see at a mile than the bright red neon sign is.

If you are suggesting that the Icon range should be a function of the ords, such that an IL2 with cannon-only gets a longer icon range than an IL-2 with bombs....then....maybe that's more fair, but that seems like splitting hairs.

So I like it the way it is. And I spend all of my time in a plane.  :salute
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: SmokinLoon on October 21, 2013, 12:48:45 PM
 I say be thankful the maps dont have more clutter to hide and camouflage the gv's, AND be thankful that we get any icon at all.  It is easy to spot enemy gv's as it is, icon or not.  Patience is the key.  Oh, and use the Force.  Let go. Trust your feelings. 

Seriously... the odds are in favor of aircraft regardless if the gv is moving or not.  Oh, if the issue persists may I suggest getting your little buddy Mr. Storch in the air and get your eyes in the sky.   :aok
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: LCADolby on October 21, 2013, 01:03:36 PM
Considering how effective they are, the small numbers of them in the war, and their short icon range, why are they not perked?
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: save on October 21, 2013, 01:11:51 PM
Only reason wirbies are effective is due to the fact in AH they have constant computer aided range-finders not even modern tanks have, take away plane range on the icons (or give range every 5 seconds)  and you will see 90% of the crowd  shooting blanks for the most part (as they should).

Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: pervert on October 21, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
Hmm  :headscratch: also have the tanks been 'up armoured' in the MA? Cos offline I can pop tanks all day long in a stuka g2 so long as I am nose down? What gives?
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 21, 2013, 07:22:55 PM
Only reason wirbies are effective is due to the fact in AH they have constant computer aided range-finders not even modern tanks have, take away plane range on the icons (or give range every 5 seconds)  and you will see 90% of the crowd  shooting blanks for the most part (as they should).


Only thing I use the range for is to know when to  start shooting (1.5K), or is that what your are referring to? :D
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tinkles on October 22, 2013, 12:05:51 AM
Only thing I use the range for is to know when to  start shooting (1.5K), or is that what your are referring to? :D

Yup that's what he is referring to, in a word. Icons.

I wouldn't mind extending (anti-plane only) vehicles to 1000 yards. (Note: this would be Wirbles, M16s and Ostiwinds only). Tanks would stay at the current icon range.

If you can aim at all in the wirble you can kill them 1700 out. Done it enough times to be able to say, it's possible.

 :airplane:

 :salute
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: JunkyII on October 22, 2013, 12:48:02 AM
I think Waystin has a film killing Grizz's 262 at like 1.5k + on a crossing angle shot

I think the gameplay is as close to even it's going to get without the same gripes from the other side. That being said....I hate when planes fly around their buddies in whirbs while talking directly to the pilot. Pretty sure that didn't happen in WW2...
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tinkles on October 22, 2013, 01:19:30 AM
I think Waystin has a film killing Grizz's 262 at like 1.5k + on a crossing angle shot

I think the gameplay is as close to even it's going to get without the same gripes from the other side. That being said....I hate when planes fly around their buddies in whirbs while talking directly to the pilot. Pretty sure that didn't happen in WW2...

I have quite a few films of similar events.  


I do too.

 :salute
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: BaldEagl on October 22, 2013, 02:11:54 AM
Generally the M-16 is only good to 1000 yards, the Wirb to 1500 and the Osti to 2500.  To give the lowest common denominator a chance at all the range has to be within it's effective range so I could see stretching it to 800 or maybe even 1000 yards but no further.  That also leaves most GV machine guns at ranges to be effective (typically 1000 yards or less).
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: waystin2 on October 22, 2013, 09:01:36 AM
So for the cannon tankbusters stuka or il2 why is the range for seeing wirbs 600? I don't mind this on tanks but by the time you know a wirb is there it has already started firing at you, I take it this was a concession for the GV crowd?  :rofl

I am on the fence with this one.  I like the Hurricane IID for vehicle busting, and have used it alot less since icons were reduced.  Getting older and it's hard to see them vehicles and line up a good attack that does not involve an impact with a tree.  As the Wirbelgawd I have always held fire until the planes get close so there is little or no chance of escape.  I favor the increase in distance on Wirbels, but if it was done uniformly on all GV's then softer skin targets like M-3's, M-8's, LVT's etc would see a noticeable drop in survivability.   Maybe something that is inside the Wirbels effective range, but not outside of it either.  Say 1-kish?Torn.... :headscratch:
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: kvuo75 on October 22, 2013, 09:08:03 AM
oh I wonder what we used to do when GV icons were 3k for all aircraft.

musn't have been any GV action at all because of the gv's getting picked on by planes.

oh yeah.. there was plenty.

Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: wpeters on October 22, 2013, 01:27:58 PM
At 600yd you can fly over a wirb and get killed before you know he was there.   

Either give the wirb and ostwind a 2 perk cost.

Or  1000 yd icon range for IL-2 Hurricane ll D  Ju-87g2.  600 is just to close
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: SmokinLoon on October 22, 2013, 01:39:35 PM
At 600yd you can fly over a wirb and get killed before you know he was there.   

Either give the wirb and ostwind a 2 perk cost.

Or  1000 yd icon range for IL-2 Hurricane ll D  Ju-87g2.  600 is just to close

Perhaps you should take less traveled gv routes if you're getting hammered by Wirby's from below.  Altitude and NOT flying the same route a gv would be taking from the spawn point to the town would be a safer bet.  I can't remember the last time I got taken out by a wirby that I didn't know was there.

Again... a countryman in a Storch would be ideal.  It goes a long way in helping you stay in the air.  :aok
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tinkles on October 22, 2013, 01:53:10 PM
Perhaps you should take less traveled gv routes if you're getting hammered by Wirby's from below.  Altitude and NOT flying the same route a gv would be taking from the spawn point to the town would be a safer bet.  I can't remember the last time I got taken out by a wirby that I didn't know was there.

Again... a countryman in a Storch would be ideal.  It goes a long way in helping you stay in the air.  :aok

I am a wirble user and an il2/b25 user also. But, I do agree that wirbles icon range should be extended to 1k. But only for certain planes. Like, B25, Il2, JU87(with the guns) and perhaps a few others.

Also, how can a storch (who is barely moving and is such an easy target) survive and mark a wirble when a plane that can go significantly faster (p38, p47 or even a p51) can't survive most of the time against any player who can aim decently?

Again, I think certain planes should have extended wirble m16 or osti icon range. 

Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Vinkman on October 22, 2013, 02:00:24 PM
I have to say I don't get this discussion....

What good is an icon at 1000 or 1500 yrds for that matter for whirb? You would already have to be in your attack run by the time you reach 1000yrds who's even paying attention to the icon at that point? You should already be lining up the dot (or some windage point) and dropping your bomb or pulling the trigger. If you don't see the whirble until 1000yrds, the Icon is just letting you know you are about to be killed.

Unless of course you are using the icon distances to calculate your windage.  If that's the case, you aren't complaining about "seeing" the whirble, you just nedd the distances as a aiming guide.

True?

Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Mano on October 23, 2013, 10:08:54 AM
The storch can mark enemy GV's with smoke. Keep your altitude until the storchs arrive.

 :salute
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tinkles on October 23, 2013, 12:00:31 PM
The storch can mark enemy GV's with smoke. Keep your altitude until the storchs arrive.

 :salute


  :confused:

 :lol

Not if the gunner can aim   :P
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Mano on October 23, 2013, 02:43:00 PM
The storch that get altitude and survive. The experienced pilot keeps his distance from the flankers.

 :salute
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: bustr on October 23, 2013, 04:37:34 PM
A 1k icon you are already in the wirbel's kill zone. 1.5k is more useful to help two planes working the wirbel or to allow you to keep the wirbel in sight while working a tank. From testing, 1.7k is the wirbel 20mm max range. Or 1.5k helps in getting above the wirbel for the 70 degree dive shot to kill the guns. 600 is usless for you to protect yourself in a plane. I suspect most pilots hunt wirbel by their tracers and on zoom.

Zoom is around 1:1 at full. And at full you can see GV at real world distances without need of their icon. So I guess this wish is to have your default FoV and eat your wirbel too. How about when in HurriD, B25H, IL2 and Ju87-G2, you get a tank hunting view mode where a 2-3 inch commander circle pops up in zoom that pans centered with your line of sight? Maneuvering in the default full zoom is like trying to run down a street strewn with rubble while binoculars are taped to your face. You loose your sense of visual perspective to the environment that helps you keep distances and line up runs during controlled turns. 

If this wish is simply for take off and landing. Someone will have been yelling on country about the wirbel. Or since we don't have wind issues with landing and take off. Use the end of the runway away from the spawn. If we had flak towers I wonder if Hitech would coad them to engage vehicles?
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Rob52240 on October 23, 2013, 05:21:46 PM
A 1k icon you are already in the wirbel's kill zone. 1.5k is more useful to help two planes working the wirbel or to allow you to keep the wirbel in sight while working a tank. From testing, 1.7k is the wirbel 20mm max range. Or 1.5k helps in getting above the wirbel for the 70 degree dive shot to kill the guns. 600 is usless for you to protect yourself in a plane. I suspect most pilots hunt wirbel by their tracers and on zoom.

Zoom is around 1:1 at full. And at full you can see GV at real world distances without need of their icon. So I guess this wish is to have your default FoV and eat your wirbel too. How about when in HurriD, B25H, IL2 and Ju87-G2, you get a tank hunting view mode where a 2-3 inch commander circle pops up in zoom that pans centered with your line of sight? Maneuvering in the default full zoom is like trying to run down a street strewn with rubble while binoculars are taped to your face. You loose your sense of visual perspective to the environment that helps you keep distances and line up runs during controlled turns. 

If this wish is simply for take off and landing. Someone will have been yelling on country about the wirbel. Or since we don't have wind issues with landing and take off. Use the end of the runway away from the spawn. If we had flak towers I wonder if Hitech would coad them to engage vehicles?

The flak towers at the strat complexes do engage vehicles.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tilt on October 23, 2013, 05:28:59 PM
I would vote to make ac - gv icon range as a variable that is inversely proportional to your airspeed.

Fly as slow as Storch..... See as well as a Storch
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Acidrain on October 24, 2013, 06:38:25 AM
I would vote to make ac - gv icon range as a variable that is inversely proportional to your airspeed.

Fly as slow as Storch..... See as well as a Storch
^THIS
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tinkles on October 24, 2013, 08:10:15 AM
I would vote to make ac - gv icon range as a variable that is inversely proportional to your airspeed.

Fly as slow as Storch..... See as well as a Storch

 :aok
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: nrshida on October 24, 2013, 12:32:53 PM
I would vote to make ac - gv icon range as a variable that is inversely proportional to your airspeed.

Fly as slow as Storch..... See as well as a Storch

Great idea +1.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: JunkyII on October 24, 2013, 12:59:46 PM
+1 Tilt
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: wpeters on October 24, 2013, 01:02:59 PM
I would vote to make ac - gv icon range as a variable that is inversely proportional to your airspeed.

Fly as slow as Storch..... See as well as a Storch
+1
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: bustr on October 25, 2013, 01:32:31 AM
So that means in your favorite late war bomb truck. As you slow down in your climb to the 70 degree point over a wirbel 2-3k below you, it's icon stays lit up for you? Then as you slowly tip over at 0 throttle to get lined up, it's still lit up. Then go to zoom as the icon disappears at 1500 or 1000, and you just gamed the reason for the shortened icon range by managing your throttle.

It would be more honest to extend the wirbel and osti icon range out to 1000-1500 even 2000.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Tilt on October 25, 2013, 06:20:20 AM
So that means in your favorite late war bomb truck. As you slow down in your climb to the 70 degree point over a wirbel 2-3k below you, it's icon stays lit up for you? Then as you slowly tip over at 0 throttle to get lined up, it's still lit up. Then go to zoom as the icon disappears at 1500 or 1000, and you just gamed the reason for the shortened icon range by managing your throttle.

It would be more honest to extend the wirbel and osti icon range out to 1000-1500 even 2000.

You have assumed those values of 2-3k.............. the point is that as you fly slower stuff is easier to see.

Its easy to fly slow in Storch so it sees stuff more easily
An alternative example would be that at 75IAS you have a vehicle icon range of 2000yards and at 200IAS you have a vehicle icon range of 750yards. If the vehicle is moving then add another 500? yards with a generic GV icon. (you know its a GV but not what type). Unless of course the GV is hidden then there are no icons.


Values would be selected to suit best game play its the principle/mechanism I offer.

The Storch continues to be the spotter of choice, slow attack ac like the JU87G and Hurri2D suited to slower manouvering gain some advantage whilst still operating well within the range of WW & OW's. Bomb laden late war attack AC still have to know where the target is pretty much before they see an icon and if they really want an earlier icon spot then they have slowed to the very edge of their envelope. However if they have developed the skill to do so..... why not be rewarded with a RL consequence.

Performing a chandelle/combat turn to slow your speed is a viable tactic to get a better view of what might be in a target area......... however if you do attempt a 70 degree climb over a WW to slow to better icon range.... for part of that climb you were vulnerable with no or reduced icon.


Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: JunkyII on October 25, 2013, 12:17:33 PM
So that means in your favorite late war bomb truck. As you slow down in your climb to the 70 degree point over a wirbel 2-3k below you, it's icon stays lit up for you? Then as you slowly tip over at 0 throttle to get lined up, it's still lit up. Then go to zoom as the icon disappears at 1500 or 1000, and you just gamed the reason for the shortened icon range by managing your throttle.

It would be more honest to extend the wirbel and osti icon range out to 1000-1500 even 2000.
Add another to counter this....you need to keep the whirbel in line of sight for the icon to stay at that distance. If you stop looking at it you lose icon until your back to normal range.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: bustr on October 25, 2013, 02:47:48 PM
Yes go back in this post to the suggestion of GV specialty attack aircraft getting a commander mode view of 2-3 inch diameter that follows the player's line of sight. Then you keep your default peripheral FoV but, can zoom the commander ring up to 1:1 by which you can see wirbel without the need for it's icon. No different than using the P-61 5x night binocular gunsight to fly with. At least that would be purpose driven rather than a gamey solution that will achieve a following of exploiters like F3 and the IL2 in furballs.

Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: pervert on October 26, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
What about a combo of vinkman's and tilt's suggestions, that is dependant on the plane being equipped with ords, ie plane with ords does not increase vis icon but any plane without ords flying slow enough can?
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: bustr on October 26, 2013, 05:46:53 PM
As you grow your solution in complexity, it becomes as painful as the problem you want a solution to. Convincing Hitech of the need to increase the wirbel icon range is the simplest solution. The idea of a commander window with zoom only inside of it was to account for how we use our default FoV for situational awareness and can see wirbel clearly at distance with full zoom. Conditional steps and levels to achieve viewing outcomes is clunky.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: save on October 26, 2013, 05:54:36 PM
level bomber pilots should be forced to use bomb sight for dropping bombs.
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Slade on October 27, 2013, 09:58:07 AM
Quote
I wouldn't mind extending (anti-plane only) vehicles to 1000 yards.

+1
Title: Re: Wirb Ground Vis Range
Post by: Karnak on October 27, 2013, 10:15:51 AM
All that needs to happen is for friendly aircraft to have the same icon limitations as hostile aircraft.  That alone will end all casual "drag the guy on my tail to the friendly AA vehicle" escapes.

Setting a 1000 yard vis range on AA vehicle icons will do essentially nothing.  At 350mph in a fighter like an Fw190D-9 or P-51D you will still be well into the Whirby's kill envelope by the time you significantly alter your flight path if you see him 1000 yards ahead.  Further, if you are chasing an enemy that enemy would still have six times your vis range, only a slight reduction in advantage from the ten times vis range that he has now.

Just set all vehicles to have a 600 yard icon vis range to aircraft, both friendly and hostile, when stopped and a 1200 yard icon vis range to aircraft, friendly and hostile, when moving, 1200 while stopped and 2400 while moving for friendly and hostile Fi156s.  GV icon range for GVs would remain as now, no icons for enemy GVs and 6000 yards for friendly GVs.  GVs would maintain their 6000 yard icon range for friendly and hostile aircraft as well, aircraft being much easier to see from the ground that GVs from the air.