Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nefarious on October 21, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
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We have a real old Gas Boiler system that heats our house using baseboard radiators. It has worked great for 7 years aside from a replacement pilot light thermocouple a few years back.
So this year, we decide to bleed the noisy lines with some help from the trusty Youtube... :bhead
I got a short piece of hose, and a 5 gallon bucket and removed about 1 1/2 buckets of water before it stopped burping air and was a steady light stream of water. So we proceed to cleanup the boiler with a dust and a vacuum. Start the electric pump and its kind making a weird noise, louder and noticeable.
I light the boiler and crank the thermostat to 80F, everything seems ok, temp gauge on boiler starts to rise but pressure does not! Eventually the boiler kicks off and no matter how much I fool with the thermostat will not kick back on.
So, I'm thinking to myself, maybe the system needs to fill back up with water? So I let it sit for 24 hours, get home from work. It lights this time, but still no pressure and eventually kicks off again... Pump is still making strange noise but since it is making noise I am assuming it still works. I took a look at the expansion tank and took a pressure reading on it and it's at 12 PSI, so I don't think that has failed. I am under the assumption that since my boiler is connected to my water line, the lines should fill within at least several hours without the help of the circulation pump. I should add that when I open some of the relief valves, air comes out (hisses) to the noise of the pump downstairs...
Any ideas before I break the Piggy Bank?
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what kinda noise is the pump making? sound like gravel in it perhaps? could be cavitation.. is there a high point vent around the pump?
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what kinda noise is the pump making? sound like gravel in it perhaps? could be cavitation.. is there a high point vent around the pump?
Yes, a little bit like gravel. Sounds like air going through it. I dont see any vent around it.
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while venting the system, you said you got about 1.5 buckets of water out before clear stream, were you adding water while venting?
is the pump in a low section of the system?
I don't know home heating applications but I understand pumps.. so.. hehe
I would guess perhaps you have drawn a vacuum on the suction side of the pump and the pump does not have enough net positive suction head..
I don't think you have put yourself in a money expenditure situation so not to worry.. pumps just need a few basic things to run is all..
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I would check and see if the pump has power to it. Do an Amperage draw aswell if you can. Im currently taking HVACR in Tech School. We havent talked much about boilers yet.
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I would check and see if the pump has power to it. Do an Amperage draw aswell if you can. Im currently taking HVACR in Tech School. We havent talked much about boilers yet.
he said it was running..
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he said it was running..
Right. If you check for an Amperage draw and its pulling high amps something could be wrong with it. Im just giving suggestions.
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and make sure the electric motor is actually turning the pump.. found this
http://homerepair.about.com/od/heatingcoolingrepair/ss/trblsht_boiler_8.htm
Possible Repairs
Check the circulator. There is a spring loaded coupling that connects the pump to the motor. When it breaks after the pump jams, the coupling will make a loud noise as the motor runs.
I'm still thinking you have pulled a vacuum on the suction side of the pump.. could be wrong though.. The heat exchanger has to have a vent on it.. The system needs to be solid all the way through except for the expansion tank..
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I do see what your saying with the vacuum though. Makes sense.
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Nef,
you said it didn't build any pressure! check the relief valve that it's not stuck open!
Often calcium build up can cause it to be opened and not allow pressure to build,this is needed to raise the boiling point. The check valve can stop the system from operating on some systems.
If the pump is making more noise than usual,as Kappa said it could have lost it's prime and again cause the system to not work,these are safety features so you don't explode the boiler!
If the system is really old the pipes could be pretty much clogged with deposites and this could be causing the pump issue. Check the relief valve first though!
:salute
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http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/news/Boiler%20Diagram.gif
if that is how is system is I think I'm wrong as far as npsh goes.. the pump should always have npsh cause of the supply line from city water.. if the city water valve is open of course.
relief valves should burp water, not air I would think.. and a stuck open relief valve would keep you from making pressure but leak water.. should.. hehe
either the pump coupling is broken or the fill valve is closed.. im leaning toward the fill valve.. ha
look on the bright side of things.. the safety aspects of your boiler are working.. hehe
edit: that diagram also shows a strainer on the return side of the system.. I'd check it clean too.. Hopefully you can valve it out and remove/clean it then replace.
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(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/20131021_204903.jpg)
The pump is the red object.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/20131021_204839.jpg)
This is bell object is what reduces the water pressure down to 12 PSI, the water valve is to the right. It is open.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/20131021_194103.jpg)
The big red valve is the return line, this feeds back into the boiler. It is open.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/20131021_193956.jpg)
Last is just a close up to its old rusty parts. :old:
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yea, that does NOT look like a cavitation problem.. I don't see how it could be b/c you have the city supply as well as the weight of the water system above it..
does that pressure gauge move at all when the circ pump is cycled on? I'm thinking that will measure pressure on the water side? It should change if even a little bit if the pump is working properly..
is there a rotameter somewhere in the system that measures system flow?
two things i would do is make sure the system is filled and vented and verify the integrity of the pump coupling..
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I dont know much about forced hot water, my system is steam, but I did find this page maybe it'll help ya
http://homerepair.about.com/od/heatingcoolingrepair/ss/trblsht_boiler_2.htm
good luck keep us posted, will do some more looking tomorrow evening after work :salute :cheers:
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Where did you vent the air at? At the high point for each zone? :headscratch:
Wouldn't be the first time a pump went out, or debris moved into the pump and caused a jambed impeller. You may need to call a heating specialist.
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maybe low-water cut out is bad??
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Where did you vent the air at? At the high point for each zone? :headscratch:
Wouldn't be the first time a pump went out, or debris moved into the pump and caused a jambed impeller. You may need to call a heating specialist.
On the far end of the house there is a faucet, i also drained a little more off the faucet on the boiler.
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I haven't played much with water systems either, mostly steam. It sounds like you are going out on a high temp safety. I bet your pump is shot.
A running pump doesn't make it a working pump. The gravel sound could be broken impeller blades grinding themselves into sand.
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I haven't played much with water systems either, mostly steam. It sounds like you are going out on a high temp safety. I bet your pump is shot.
A running pump doesn't make it a working pump. The gravel sound could be broken impeller blades grinding themselves into sand.
Well it doesnt sound restricted, or metallic. Sounds sort of like water with air in it... were calling a tech today... lame... id hate to screw with it more than I already have and break it more.
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That little red pump doesn't have a replaceable coupling--it's direct drive. It shouldn't make much noise to speak of when it's running. You either have some sort of debris stuck in it or you're hearing the remnants of the impeller rattling around. When we have problems with them it's a throwaway. Usually a heating supply house item.
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That little red pump doesn't have a replaceable coupling--it's direct drive. It shouldn't make much noise to speak of when it's running. You either have some sort of debris stuck in it or you're hearing the remnants of the impeller rattling around. When we have problems with them it's a throwaway. Usually a heating supply house item.
Bingo. Tech is on scene and getting estimate now.
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We were quoted $500 for part and labor to replace pump.
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I just found the pump online Bell and Gossett NRF-22 for $100. They quoted us $320 for the pump and $150 for the labor!, Am I missing something here?
Do I need parts like gaskets and stuff that aren't included in the websites online?
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that would be easy to replace.. valve it out, drain the heat exchanger, unbolt/rebolt, valve in..
edit: and kill the breaker first.. hehe
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That little red pump doesn't have a replaceable coupling--it's direct drive. It shouldn't make much noise to speak of when it's running. You either have some sort of debris stuck in it or you're hearing the remnants of the impeller rattling around. When we have problems with them it's a throwaway. Usually a heating supply house item.
ahh im a retard.. you rattled me with 'direct drive'.. had to google it.. impeller bolted on the rotor.. I'd not thought of that but seems pretty common in this application..
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http://www.nationalpumpsupply.com/103251-bell-gossett-nrf-22-pump-1-25hp-red-fox-circulator-with-flanges/
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ahh im a retard.. you rattled me with 'direct drive'.. had to google it.. impeller bolted on the rotor.. I'd not thought of that but seems pretty common in this application..
Yeah for smaller systems like this they're fine. The only thing I hate about them is they're totally sealed with no visible parts which make them hard to easily troubleshoot. They run so smoothly it's sometimes hard to tell if it's running or not! The larger models of this type have a cooling fan you can see on the motor at least.
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Nef, if you're fairly handy you should be able to do this. Talking two pairs of nuts and bolts. A pair of gaskets. Kill power to boiler. Drain system or isolate the pump if you can. Disco the electric at the box on the pump. It's 110 so you only have hot neutral and ground. Hard to screw up. Unbolt. Clean flanges with a green scrubby pad. Put new gaskets on pump. Self explanatory when you see it. Slide new pump in. Bolt it up. Reverse the rest. Fill and bleed system.
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Nef, if you're fairly handy you should be able to do this. Talking two pairs of nuts and bolts. A pair of gaskets. Kill power to boiler. Drain system or isolate the pump if you can. Disco the electric at the box on the pump. It's 110 so you only have hot neutral and ground. Hard to screw up. Unbolt. Clean flanges with a green scrubby pad. Put new gaskets on pump. Self explanatory when you see it. Slide new pump in. Bolt it up. Reverse the rest. Fill and bleed system.
Yeah, I'm not that handy. I might have a friend or two that I can hand wrenches and beer too though. :cheers:
Do I need the one with flanges or no flanges? I don't know.
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It looks like yours has flanges from the picture. There should be a gasket between the pump flange and the pipe flange (this allows the pump to seal to the piping). Once you disconnect the pump, look to see if there is a gasket on the flange.
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The pump is packaged alone. The box has a little slot cut into it so the guy at the supply house can pop a set of flanges in there. The bolt pattern will be the same. Only diff would be what size pipe they need to be. They won't be expensive so it wouldn't be a bad idea to include them in case the flanges on your system are damaged/corroded beyond a quick cleaning with a scrubby pad. If that's the case you can just swap them out. Hard to do if you don't have them to swap.
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Doesn't the pump contain an impeller , and if the impeller is needs to be replaced that might make the pump sound funny??????
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I just found the pump online Bell and Gossett NRF-22 for $100. They quoted us $320 for the pump and $150 for the labor!, Am I missing something here?
Do I need parts like gaskets and stuff that aren't included in the websites online?
Actually that sounds about right,my buddy is in the business and I asked him about your boiler and he told me if it was just the pump it would be a 400$$ plus job!
Their markup on the pump is abit too much,if you can get it for 100 bucks it should be a 200 to 250 price range,someone has to pay for those fancy work trucks.... :devil
150 dollars is about standard for a 1 hour service call,my buddy charges me about 75 bucks to drop by for a beer,oh and he might check my system while he's here.... :devil
Nef, do yourself a favour,get the flanges and gaskets and just replace it all! shouldn't take more than 20 mins to R and R the pump. Spray some WD40 or other rust remover before you try to loosen the bolts and as someone already said disco the power!
If you know someone who knows anything about bolers,have them check the flame! The manifold has a air/fuel mixture adjuster and tuning the flame can make a huge difference on your heating cost!
Oh and I called my buddy to do a tuneup on my system,that when I asked about your boiler!
YMMV.
:salute
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Sounds like a buddy like morfiend's one would be the most cost effective solution for Nefarious...
There's a saying that a one dollar cobbler can make damage worth a hundred. DIY is fine for those who can. The rest of us have to pay.
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Sounds like a buddy like morfiend's one would be the most cost effective solution for Nefarious...
There's a saying that a one dollar cobbler can make damage worth a hundred. DIY is fine for those who can. The rest of us have to pay.
Yep, it's why I don't have heat right now... and it just started snowing here... lol
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Sounds like a buddy like morfiend's one would be the most cost effective solution for Nefarious...
There's a saying that a one dollar cobbler can make damage worth a hundred. DIY is fine for those who can. The rest of us have to pay.
:rofl :rofl :rofl First thing he asked was"does this guy live in town?" I bet he had dollar signs in his eyes as he said it.... :O
Nef, if you do the job yourself or have a buddy do it,get some pipe dope to help seal the copper to brass or brass to brass fittings! Never use it on the gas or oil lines,teflon tape is to be used on those pipes and I suppose it will work on the water line but I like the pipe dope..... :devil to seal the connectors....
:salute
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Teflon on gas lines is against code in most places now because it sucks, or the person applying it sucks, pick one. In this case, with flanges and gaskets, no dope is needed nor desired since it may actually cause it to leak.
For the love of the God of All, please get someone to replace those ugly and highly illegal Romex power lines dangling haphazardly. Does that yellow one come all the way down from the ceiling? Bloody hell!
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Your description leads me to believe its cavitating and probably needs to be replaced. Don't forget to add glycol to your loop.
Controls Nerd.
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Teflon on gas lines is against code in most places now because it sucks, or the person applying it sucks, pick one. In this case, with flanges and gaskets, no dope is needed nor desired since it may actually cause it to leak.
For the love of the God of All, please get someone to replace those ugly and highly illegal Romex power lines dangling haphazardly. Does that yellow one come all the way down from the ceiling? Bloody hell!
This I didn't know,been outta the workforce for too long I guess! That's the first I've heard about the Ttape.
Looking closer at the pix I see infact that you can remove the pump without touching anything else! :aok I thought the copper flange was the top flange and that bit of pipe might of had to been disconnected.Looks like you simply need to loose those 2 bolts and nuts and the pump will slide right out.
BTW,I'm up in Canada and our codes would be somewhat different.
:salute
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Teflon on gas lines is against code in most places now because it sucks, or the person applying it sucks, pick one. In this case, with flanges and gaskets, no dope is needed nor desired since it may actually cause it to leak.
For the love of the God of All, please get someone to replace those ugly and highly illegal Romex power lines dangling haphazardly. Does that yellow one come all the way down from the ceiling? Bloody hell!
It's against code because additives in the gas will actually break it down and that causes a leak down the road.
Don't use dope on the gaskets as they are neoprene and using a dope that is petroleum based and/or has solvents in it will destroy the gaskets. If anything a light coating of silicone grease is about all you'd even think about using but if you didn't have it it's perfectly fine to do without.
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Looks like you simply need to loose those 2 bolts and nuts and the pump will slide right out.
You have it exactly right. As I said above, two pairs of nuts and bolts, above and below and that's all there is to it. Just watch that you haven't pinched the gaskets when you put it back in, but they sit in a recess on the pump that'll capture them. They look like a bigger washer than you might find on a sink trap.Tighten evenly. Bazinga!
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You have it exactly right. As I said above, two pairs of nuts and bolts, above and below and that's all there is to it. Just watch that you haven't pinched the gaskets when you put it back in, but they sit in a recess on the pump that'll capture them. They look like a bigger washer than you might find on a sink trap.Tighten evenly. Bazinga!
At first I thought the flanges were the copper ones,so I assumed they would have to be removed! And after some thought I recall I got it backwards,dope on the gas pipe,Ttape on water lines....Doh... Like I said been away from it too long!
:salute
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we use teff tape and dope on stainless steel and copper water fittings and just dope on brass fittings :aok
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Well I don't know squat about boilers, well I do actually but not enough to be giving advice that's for sure. Teflon tape I do know a few things about.
Years ago I heard an interesting story, can't actually prove it. But given what I know about sealants and flanges and threaded connections I can believe it.
Listening to a presentation from a Henkel rep, he explained that the DuPont company strictly forbid the use of teflon tape for any use within the company manufacturing plants . They do in fact allow the use of teflon based pastes and so called pipe dope. Given the reactions and possible breaking down of the tape, and the common issue of folks using too much tape to seal a given joint, only to create issues down the road. They banned it!
Imagine that a product that they make, they ban for use in their own facilities.
BTW..... Henkel Corporation..... They make Loctite products :rock
A quick spray of liquid copper primer and some PST on any threaded seal connection regardless of material and it's not gonna leak. I use it on 5,000 psi hydraulic connections and it is the bomb!
Stay away from tape!
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Well I don't know squat about boilers, well I do actually but not enough to be giving advice that's for sure. Teflon tape I do know a few things about.
Years ago I heard an interesting story, can't actually prove it. But given what I know about sealants and flanges and threaded connections I can believe it.
Listening to a presentation from a Henkel rep, he explained that the DuPont company strictly forbid the use of teflon tape for any use within the company manufacturing plants . They do in fact allow the use of teflon based pastes and so called pipe dope. Given the reactions and possible breaking down of the tape, and the common issue of folks using too much tape to seal a given joint, only to create issues down the road. They banned it!
Imagine that a product that they make, they ban for use in their own facilities.
BTW..... Henkel Corporation..... They make Loctite products :rock
A quick spray of liquid copper primer and some PST on any threaded seal connection regardless of material and it's not gonna leak. I use it on 5,000 psi hydraulic connections and it is the bomb!
Stay away from tape!
I will vouch for Henkel products.
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Keytite is my dope of choice
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Wise old plumber told me many moons ago that Teflon tape was only supposed to make it easier to tighten down a fitting so the gasket could do its job. The tape just makes the threads slide past each other easier so the threads don't grab before the gasket is properly compressed and mated. If the Teflon tape is being used to "seal" a fitting, then the whole thing is fubar, either worn beyond usability or they're using the wrong fitting on one or both ends, wrong gasket, something.
Made sense to me. I never every "seal" anything with Teflon tape. I try to wrap the threads 1 to 2 times around with the tape, and tighten until I think the gasket is doing its job. If it leaks, the Teflon tape should make it easy to remove everything, re-check the gasket and fittings, and re-install.
I can see how some people get confused about what the stuff is supposed to be for... If you use enough Teflon tape to make a seal in the threads, then you probably used too much and it will actually prevent the fitting from being tightened down enough so the gasket seats properly. This is usually blamed on "crappy Teflon tape not sealing right". Uh... the Teflon tape doesn't say "Teflon tape thread sealant" anywhere on the package dumby...
This kind of basic mistake is why plumbers charge $300/hr and get away with it. Because so many people make the same dumb mistakes.
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I dont even know why anyone bothers with the tape anymore. The paste is easier and faster to use
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So the followup...
Tech comes today. Removes pump, determines that pump is still operational. He then determines that the pressure regulator on the water line has become clogged with debris from when some newbie drained the lines ;).
Clears pipe and regulator and lights furnace, furnace works properly. $75.
Roughly 45 minutes after I had left for work and Rosie was preparing to leave a noise is heard and she goes down stairs to check and steaming hot water is exiting the relief pipe. Had this happened later while we were both gone :furious. Water was everywhere in just a few minutes.
Guy comes back, replaces pressure regulator. $125.
So in all, $75 for the first check, $75 for the supposed fix and $125 for the second fix. $275 is a whole heckuva lot better than $500.
Happy to have heat, but not about the price. The good thing is, I happened to get a nice little bonus the Friday before the boiler went kaput and I thought it was going to take a big chunk out of it. But it only took a little nibble <S>.
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:aok
Now you can Relax and have a Homebrew.
:cheers: