Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hobodog on January 27, 2001, 01:57:00 PM
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Ill just catch that blitz in my beutiful P-47M PRATT&WHITTNEY R-2800-59 Engine 2300hp and turbocharged to hell. No PROBLEM goin 476mph An still waying about 10 tons/ actually more like 7 1/2 with a normal load insted of a full load.
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Can someone point to a specific PYRO or HT message (or relate a comment on the radio in the MA) where the P-51H is mentioned as a possible perk plane?
In all of the comments from HTC the only AC I believe I saw mentioned as examples of perks that we don't already know about are the Me-262, Ta-152, etc.
Personally, I hope we never see it...The P-51H never saw WWII combat and the addition of it will cross a line that I believe takes AH away from being a WWII simulation. (and, actually, I believe, actually never saw Korean combat...it was decided the more heavily built older models were better for ground attack.)
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First ive heard athousand people mention MY ASSUMPTION HOPING THEYLL COME OUT. And since it did see service and there were 555 of them built plus they were the only thing beside the 47m that could keep up with any kind of Jet(GERMAN JET THAT IS(besides the Fiesler Fi 104R, The beutiful Heinkel HE 178, and the Infamous FSW concept Junkers Ju 287(all rarlely used actually never in the case of the last two.) I believe to help even it out there should be a fast allied perk.
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Originally posted by Torgo:
Personally, I hope we never see it...The P-51H never saw WWII combat and the addition of it will cross a line that I believe takes AH away from being a WWII simulation. (and, actually, I believe, actually never saw Korean combat...it was decided the more heavily built older models were better for ground attack.)
IIRC Pyro or HT posted somewhere on the board that number produced and whether or not a kite saw combat has nothing to do with whether or not it makes it into AH.
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The day that a plane that never saw any combat makes it into AH is the day they will lose at least 1 subscriber.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-27-2001).]
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The attempt to exclude aircraft, that were actually produced and deployed to active service in WWII, but did not see combat is a transparant and lame attempt by the predominantly pro-LW types to obtain what little advantage they think they may get by an Arado, TA-152 or ME-262. To that I say....
Too bad.
Bring em on HTC. If it was made and not a prototype let us have it! At the very least the P-47M and N (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) For they DID see combat (a heckofalot more than the HE-162 and TA-152) and these WILL be the scrourge and nemesis of all that <heel click> is "Uber"
-Westy
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Indeed the P-47M will be the scourge of all uber planes. I need something to spend my perk points on! Bring on the P-47M!! With Lanowski's 61st FS all black jug (for the uber Poles out there) or my favorite, this skin (since the only all jug squad in aces high is ammo's 63rd Fighter Squadron):
(http://www.sunflower.com/~enasmith/p47/images/boswP47M.JPG)
"George Bostwick spread his scoring from 7 June 1944 to 7 April 1945, ending the war with eight kills. Both his P-47M-1 and an earlier P-47-22 (42-26289/LM-Z) assigned to him whilst still with the 62nd FS were referred to as 'Ugly Duckling', although the name was not painted on either aircraft. Bostwick was the only Thunderbolt ace to shoot down an Me 262 - he got his jet on 25th March 1945 in M-1 4421160/UN-F. He also damaged a second Me 262 in UN-Z on 7 April."
...from the P-47 Wish List page (http://www.sunflower.com/~enasmith/p47/HmFrame.html)
Above all, I thing the P-47M-1 would be one of the easiest variants to model for HTC. Externally, it would be identical to the D-30. Simply give it a new skin and revv up the engine!!
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
The day that a plane that never saw any combat makes it into AH is the day they will lose at least 1 subscriber.
Why? Because it removes your pro-Luftwaffe crutch?
Its kind of funny that the LW fans are so keen to base acceptability on whether are not an aircraft had seen combat. The American demand for certain production numbers to be met is the same thing from the other side. They are both BS.
My take is that if any production aircraft, even just one, were built during the war, it is valid.
However, if HTC sees things differently I won't be quitting over it.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Westy:
The attempt to exclude aircraft, that were actually produced and deployed to active service in WWII, but did not see combat is a transparant and lame attempt by the predominantly pro-LW types to obtain what little advantage they think they may get by an Arado, TA-152 or ME-262
I'm about the least pro-LW type there is :-) Other than attempting to disastrously fool with the 109G6 trying to get perk points last night I hardly fly LW.
My favorite ride is the 51D in general.
I realize there have been statements from HTC that numbers produced and seeing combat are not criteria.
I was simply expressing my personal opinion that I'd rather not see AC that saw no combat in WWII in the game.
Given that there are at least 120-130 important aircraft or variants that DID see combat in WWII left to model, why use precious resources of a small company producing "1946 fantasy war" aircraft?
And "seeing combat" is a pretty clear "bright line" that makes a good inclusion criteria.
The only debateable AC, I believe..is the Gloster Meteor. It did see combat..only against unmanned V-1s. It was deployed to Europe very late and flew combat sorties but was unsuccessful in finding German AC.
I say that's close enough and go ahead and put it in as a perk plane.
Actually, one reason I don't want to see stuff like the P-51H is that it goes far enough down a "slippery slope" that you WILL see assorted Luftwobbles then start lobbying for an assortment of German uberplanes that were a couple prototypes, a non-flying mockup, or just some drawings.
We'll also have people wanting the P-80 as a perk..which flew operational recon missions (unarmed) in the war. I say put it in as a perk plane with no guns :-)
Like the La-7, I frankly can't conceive of why people think of the P-47N as a perk plane. The 47s we have now are little-used and I doubt the increase in performance of the N will be enough to turn the P-47 into an arena-dominating uberplane.
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Originally posted by Sancho:
Indeed the P-47M will be the scourge of all uber planes. I need something to spend my perk points on! Bring on the P-47M!!
[/b]
Both the P-47M and N are slower by quite a bit than the P-51D at less than 15,000 ft (where 99% of all MA combat happens), aren't they?
I guess either might be the best choice to try to hunt down hi-alt Arado geeks, though. That's a pretty specialized and small-scale endeavor, though.
I don't see where they'd be the scourge of uberplanes. Or need to be perked. I could see the P-47M perked simply due to small quantities (If that were an HTC criteria, which, unfortunately, it isn't.)
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Torgo:
Both the P-47M and N are slower by quite a bit than the P-51D at less than 15,000 ft (where 99% of all MA combat happens), aren't they?
No Torgo, the P-47M was the fastest prop plane to see operational service with the allies. I'll post numbers in a bit. Flown by the 56th FG from January to May 1945. Not sure about the N... I'm pretty sure it was better than D-30, but it was mainly a long ranger variant of the jug.
[edit]You may be right about the below 15k thing Torgo. But at 32,000 feet it the "M" could reach 475 mph. If it couldn't catch a P-51 at lower alts, it could at least out dive them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now, the P-47M was a plane that could climb with 109s! Under WEP, it could climb to 20k in 4.75 minutes (4210 FPM in a jug!!). Still looking for low alt speed info for the "M".
Here's a good site with P-47M info:
P-47M: the fastest piston engine fighter of the war (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html)
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Westy:
...Bring em on HTC. If it was made and not a prototype let us have it! At the very least the P-47M and N (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) For they DID see combat (a heckofalot more than the HE-162 and TA-152)...
-Westy
I agree. If it was operational at the time WWII ended it's fair game IMO. It will be very easy to regulate there use by adjusting the cost.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Westy:
The attempt to exclude aircraft, that were actually produced and deployed to active service in WWII, but did not see combat is a transparant and lame attempt by the predominantly pro-LW types to obtain what little advantage they think they may get by an Arado, TA-152 or ME-262. To that I say....
Too bad.
Bring em on HTC. If it was made and not a prototype let us have it! At the very least the P-47M and N (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) For they DID see combat (a heckofalot more than the HE-162 and TA-152) and these WILL be the scrourge and nemesis of all that <heel click> is "Uber"
-Westy
You're absolutely wrong Westy. I pay $30 a month to play a reasonable facsimile of WW2 air combat. I want to get the best impression of what it was actually like to fly in those engagements. I don't want fantasy engagements. If I wanted that, I would fly Crimson Skies. But, Thank you for your attempt to tell me what I'm thinking. I love it when people read my thoughts. You have a bright future in the internet psychic market.
I have no problem with including the P-47M or N. If it flew operational combat sorties, bring it on. Save the "what ifs" for another game.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Raubvogel why dont you just quit now?
I mean, inst a 109 vs Niki a fantasy engagement?
Give me your password and I'll cancel your account for you if you want.
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Fat DRUNK Bastards.
Nothing feels sweeter than facing a powerful enemy 1 on 1, the battle is tough, but you emerge victorious. As he types <S>!!! on channel one, you open fire on his chute.
(http://home.coqui.net/dimitri/secret/cassie6.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Damn Animal. You beat me to it. Like the MA bears any resemblance to WWII.
Torgo, that's why I included the word "predominately" in my post. Most of those who do not want to see the late war British aircraft, or the US P51H, P-82, P-80 or P47M/N, are those that affiliate themselves, not with an aircraft type or two mind you, but a whole armed force - the LW.
These are aircraft that would have been at the front, and earlier than you can imagine, had the Allies been under the same life or death pressure and dire need to push literally anything with wings and an engine out the door into the air. And every inch of said airspace over Germany (and Italy) in 1944 and into 1945 was a combat zone due to the Allies literally dominating every square foot of it with the current models in theatre.
- Westy
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There are so many planes that were lot more common than any of your megaperkmachines.
Why bring planes like P-51H ,(that I never even heard of,yeah i know i`m not as cool as you guys are...)when we don`t have the Hurricane,FW190D,He-111,P-39,IL-2,Mosquito and so on.
These planes were the backbones of their airforces.And You guys want planes that were bilt only a few dozen.What a joke!
What most seems to forget is,it`s not the plane but the pilot that wins that fight!
And what is the point of baggin on the pro-LW
people?The LW did have the most advanced planes put in service before the end of the war,whatever the reason may be.Thank God they failed to win the war with them.
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Originally posted by Westy:
Damn Animal. You beat me to it. Like the MA bears any resemblance to WWII.
Torgo, that's why I included the word "predominately" in my post. Most of those who do not want to see the late war British aircraft, or the US P51H, P-82, P-80 or P47M/N, are those that affiliate themselves, not with an aircraft type or two mind you, but a whole armed force - the LW.
- Westy
Here we go again with Westy's "ppl that fly LW post". You seem to miss the entire point of his post Westy cause you too damn busy firing up ur anti-LW grill....
So ppl that want a good SIM, vs. ppl that want flying fantasy don't have a good arguement? Give me a break.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sancho:
No Torgo, the P-47M was the fastest prop plane to see operational service with the allies. )
I of course was talking about below 15k. The speed of something above 20k is fairly irrelevant in the main arena.
I'll post numbers in a bit. Flown by the 56th FG from January to May 1945. Not sure about the N... I'm pretty sure it was better than D-30, but it was mainly a long ranger variant of the jug.
The N was almost as fast as the M.
Now, the P-47M was a plane that could climb with 109s! Under WEP, it could climb to 20k in 4.75 minutes (4210 FPM in a jug!!).
Well, I really lack a good WWII AC library, but I've not seen people complain much about the accuracy of Joe Baugher's stuff at Elevon...
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/ (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/)
He lists these low-alt speeds:
5,000ft. 10,000ft
P-51D 395 mph. 416 mph
P-47M None listed 400 mph
P-47N None listed 397 mph
I think it's a safe assumption that the 5,000 ft. speeds for the M and N are even slower relative to the 51 than at 10,000 ft.
N was only 10 mph slower (460 vs. 470 mph) at 30,000 ft.
Your listed climb rate seems far higher than what Baugher has. Nothing new.
This sort of stuff can vary wildly depending on how testing was done.
Baugher has 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet...
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Do I see this clearly? The difference is in having fun versus taking it too seriously?
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Bare*Metal*Finish
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Originally posted by Animal:
Raubvogel why dont you just quit now?
I mean, inst a 109 vs Niki a fantasy engagement?
LOL very good point.
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Originally posted by Westy:
These are aircraft that would have been at the front, and earlier than you can imagine, had the Allies been under the same life or death pressure and dire need to push literally anything with wings and an engine out the door into the air.
- Westy
Exactly, would have but weren't. It's that simple. Bring on the P-47M and N. Give the Brits their Meteor. You keep putting words in my mouth like I don't want to see late war Brit and US planes, you are wrong. Bring em on if they flew combat sorties. I can even see including the Meteor even though it never engaged in plane vs plane combat.
This has nothing to do with what you perceive as my Pro-LW stance. This has to do with history. You say that the MA isn't realistic now? So where exactly do you draw the line at stretching realism to fantasy. To me, this a clearly defined line between what is history and fantasy.
Westy, me thinks you just sniff out any thread that is vaguely pro-LW and do a typing HO at it.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Now u guys want an F80 and F82?????????? Ok thats fine ill take the first late 1945 batch of Ta183s with 4 MG213 very high rof hi velocity 20/30mm rotary cannon, thats fair I mean Its not its fault "Donitz was chicken and ended the war in may" Ill see your measly 560mph F80 and raise u my 600mph Ta183! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But then ud ask for F86 and its nasty German swept wing. Right? I know we were all disapointed by Mig Alley but that doesnt mean that AH should move in and fill the gap with all our fantasy 1946 planes. BTW does 2 P80 demos showing off in Italy count as combat now????? There were all ready almost 600mph fast 262s being testflown in the spring, plus they had 2 or 3 in the shop being fitted with Mg213 cannon and new BMW motors just as the war ended, surely thats OK too, right???? Or how about 620mph MeP1101L, you might be more familiar with it as (basically) the the US postwar Bell X-5. Im sorry guys but AH cant become some wierd postwar "what if" fantasy scenario. I really dont care what gets added, Ill be able to buy and fly whatever US, German, British, Russian, Japanese, perk uber-ride just as much as you or anyone else. There is no real reason this has to some Allied vs LW thing, we can all fly the same planes, Im just honestly worried that this can hurt the games realism by introducing planes that didnt participate in the war.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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The name Aces High does not mean WWII only though. What difference does it make if we all have the same chance to get better planes?
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Bare*Metal*Finish
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Post WWII rides ? So do the Axis get shafted or get the prototypes & drawing modelled after 1945 ? Just wondering... and don't point the LW stick at me, I've only been flying the La5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This subject has gone around and around in other threads.
Here are some points to consider before gushing out the same stuff as last time:
1. DO YOU WANT A RE-CREATION OF THE REAL WORLD OR NOT.
If YES:
then look to see what the most COMMON rides in a given date spread were.
That is what you get, in the most common set-up. Allow aircraft in the game at the
same percentage that they were used in WWII.
Don't like what ya get that way, too bad, yer
a draftee, just shut up and fly it. That's
what the real pilots did.
And it would need to be done in an advancing date format.
What U.S. heavy bomber was the most common found in combat in the last months of the war?
There would be two groups allowed to fly a mix of Axis and Allied aircraft. Italy and Finland.
No German vs IJN/A aircraft.
If NO:
then the only question is HOW FAR into fantasy you want to go, not if.
Do you allow a "combat" aircraft that caused less damage to the foe than errors in the
landing pattern in one week did?
How about an aircraft built in numbers under 20? 50? 100? 500?
Built in bigger numbers and delivered to combat units, but not found in "combat"
before VJ day? VE day?
Aircraft that had prototype work done, but production slowed as the end was not in
question, so why hurry?
The A-Bomb? If not how about spending the money it took on conventional weapon
construction instead?
Please re-think your "standard, mass production, combat issue" response using the
above questions, and then answer again.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Are the LW guys worried about the P51-H? The Me262 is faster and way better gunned! Agreed the P51-H never saw combat, and the 262 did.
But if the problem is in gameplay balance, then the 262 more than balances the Monster P51.
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Main Arena: "WHAT IF!!.."
Historical Arena: "WHAT WAS!!.."
Everything about MA play from icons to CV's, the way we fly; the way we organise, the interaction of P51 vs F6F vs N1K vs FW19, etc is WHAT IF.
Sure.. all that neat exotic stuff the LW was working on as well as planes like the P51H ought to be modeled and available in the MA. Inaddition to early war too.. the more planes the better. HTC has made it abunadantly clear they will do early war stuff as well as the interesting late war stuff.. and just because a plane didn't see combat shouldn't (and won't) make it inadmittable in the MA or the sim! It's about flying 'intresting planes in intresting ways against intrestiong opponents'! MA should be inclusionary; HA exclusionary based on timeline (RPS).
For the HA, a RPS and keep it going right on thru 1946 or even longer for planes.. historical matchups, country matchups, all that neato stuff... airwar circa 1946 at the end of the RPS. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Too often we all fall into this absurd tail-chase of trying to make the MA the HA.. we don't HAVE a HA.. we gotta MA, it's DIFFERENT... it's "WHAT IF!!.."
Yes; we NEED an HA.. tell HTC so! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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Maybe im kinda nutz but I dont think ill like the 262 in here or that it will present any problems to anyone except maybe buff pilots, but even here who would risk their XXXX point 262 by getting inside the 300yd and under range of the MK108- considering just how bad and unrealistic the buff guns are. Plus one must remember that although the 262 was fast it was by no means quick, taking all the time in the world to build up speed. Due to the icon system all you have to do is see the diving 262 and simply move out of its way. What can the 262 do after that, he dare not go vertical and loose speed- no hell just run away in a shallow 500mph climb, hoping to find someone asleep. MK108 shooting is not like Hispano spraying, plus with nose mounted guns in here being a disadvantage the 262 will just make very pretty and fast airshow performance. It will of curse be untouchable if kept fast and high. Actually itll be a kind of super 109G10 except without clibing power, accel, or the G10s (relatively speaking) outstanding manouverability. You all know what to do when a G10 dives on u, I think Funked said it the best - something bout piss poor gunnery pass then run away. Dont get me wrong here its speed will be annoying and if those 4 30mm find a buff itll all go very well, but vs fighters in here it will be a minor nuisance. Basically the 262s performance superiority was much more relevant in RL where it was tasked with penetrating a 1000+ P51/P47/P38 escort screen and attacking the bombers, in here no such missions will ever exist ( 2 AH buffs in formation dont need escort vs most non chog planes). Personally the 51H,Ta152,Tempest will be 10x as useful compared to 262.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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This is too what if. But speeking hypotheticly can we put that 25000hp P&W R-2800-59 in the p38 just a little wing engineering to go from a V12 to the best damn radial(with all radials being the superior aircraft engine.) of the woar.
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WRONG Wingnut, I'm not anti LW. I'm not anti-anything except I am staunchly anti-roadkill.
You may have your opinion and I mine. That being said it is my opinion that the vast majority of those who object to any plane being included in AH because it did not see combat are predominately those who pretend to be a WWII LW pilot.
HTC has not mentioned anything futuristic or proto-tpyish like the F-86, MIG-15 or Horton GO-229's. DO-335's, HE-162's, P51H or the P-51M are valid for WWII aircraft. Don't like it? Too bad as I said before but it's not fantasy. For an example of pure adolecent wishy washy fantasy head on over to the web site "Luft'46"
Tom666? Get a grip. Every time you post I start to wonder if you have a clue.
-Westy
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Heh anyone saying there's a PRO LW thing going in Aces High should have their sanity chip upgraded from an early alpha version ot a current beta one.
Let's look at some facts and examine the planes of the LW:
the most potent fighter is the G10; superb energy fighter because of its engine. Unfortunately, it suffers from lack of armament (and taking pods remove the edge), quite bad roll rate, horrible high speed handling with lockup, lack of elevator authority and needs constant trimming. It's also prone to engine outs when damaged and cannot fly with a missing wingtip very well. What it has is acceleration, speed and climbrate. It's a good plane, but if I had to choose between it and a YAK for the MA, I'd choose the YAK due to it handling much better.
G6 - slower than the g2 and the G10, and not that impressive a climbrate for a 109. An in between aircraft that is ok, but not good.
The G2 is a capable plane. It doesn't turn as well as the t&b'ers and it doesn't do b&z that good, but it's a beautiful e fighter. The YAK and LA-5 are equally good or better. Can bring pods without losing too much of the edge.
109F4 is quite slow, doesn't turn much better than the G2 and is outclassed by say a Spit or a N1K.
190A5 - potent low level plane. Outaccelerates and outclimbs other b&z'ers down low, but is significantly slower. Cannot hold its own vs t&b'ers in a t&b fight, and some can actually catch it. And outmaneuver it and do decent b&z.
190A8 is a heavy mother. Good with alt, but outdone by all b&z'ers in all regards except roll rate at medium and low speeds. Great gun package.
All LW jabos can only take one egg, and their guns are shortranged 20mm's complemented by either 7.9mm or 13mm, which also have short range compared to other guns.
I don't think one can say there is a pro-LW environment in AH - the US side has very potent planes with great capabilities. And lots of different models.
In nearly all aspects, the LW fighters are outdone by comparable fighters from other sides. As it should be, as this was the way it was in the war. But a thing such as adding a dedicated (note that keyword (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) JABO would be nice.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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StSanta,
Nobody is saying that AH has a pro-LW angle. What we are saying is that certain people have personal opinions of what is a valid aircraft and what is not that are based on concepts that would heavily favor the LW. These individules tend to posit their positions as unbiased, but that is BS.
My opinion of those who make "combat" the requirement is the same as my opinion of those who make "production numbers" the issue. I think both groups are trying to get an edge for their pet aircraft/side/nationality. They are all biased.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Main Arena: "WHAT IF!!.."
Historical Arena: "WHAT WAS!!.."
Everything about MA play from icons to CV's, the way we fly; the way we organise, the interaction of P51 vs F6F vs N1K vs FW19, etc is WHAT IF.
Sure.. all that neat exotic stuff the LW was working on as well as planes like the P51H ought to be modeled and available in the MA. Inaddition to early war too.. the more planes the better. HTC has made it abunadantly clear they will do early war stuff as well as the interesting late war stuff.. and just because a plane didn't see combat shouldn't (and won't) make it inadmittable in the MA or the sim! It's about flying 'intresting planes in intresting ways against intrestiong opponents'! MA should be inclusionary; HA exclusionary based on timeline (RPS).
For the HA, a RPS and keep it going right on thru 1946 or even longer for planes.. historical matchups, country matchups, all that neato stuff... airwar circa 1946 at the end of the RPS. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Too often we all fall into this absurd tail-chase of trying to make the MA the HA.. we don't HAVE a HA.. we gotta MA, it's DIFFERENT... it's "WHAT IF!!.."
Yes; we NEED an HA.. tell HTC so! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ditto! I've been noticing lately that the MA isn't an exact historical arena. Has anyone else. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) I would prefer that the plane were kept to planes available (flying) during WWII. If it was on the drawing board I would prefer it be left there. For example the P-80 was in Italy in May 1945. The Go 229 was actually flying in WWII. The de Havilland Vampire actually flew during WWII. Any of the planes that actually flew during WWII are fair game in my opinion. If it never actually took to wing in WWII personally I think it shouldn't be on here. Someone made a good point about adding the Allied planes that never actually saw combat. The Axis was putting ANYTHING that could be thrown into the air up. The Me 262's were still having problems that to the Allies would have made it intelligible for service only because they had the luxury of knowing the war was almost over and they would win. It wasn't going to take risking pilots in planes that were barely operational to win. The only hope for the Axis was to put up anything that was showing some promise. Look at the Me 163. The Allies would never have put there pilots into a ship like that because they didn't have to. The Allies would have done the same if they had to. Thus a plane that the Allies still considered in testing would have been pressed into service by the Axis. On top of all of this all they have to do if one starts to get to be to dominant is raise the price for it. It's easy. Ok maybe not the Go 229 but you get my point.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-29-2001).]
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Hey if this gets to far out of wahck well jsut have to get ourselves an F8F Bearcat for some but then the INFAMOUS(ly terrible) me 262 copy the JAPs Kikka (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Clearly what AH needs is a historical ww2 arena. There's a very clear demand for it (with rps of course)
Main arena with mixed planeset is dull and boring, only the suicidal will try anything early-war there... However with rps you're forced to try out the early planes (and maybe learn something new in the process..)
It was a huge hit back at WB, sure it had opposition (those 5-10 guys flying in the main crying) but I'm sure you see my point.
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Westy,you go get a grip yourself.
I don`t decide what planes will be put in this game.I only expressed my oppinion.
This is said to be a WWII simulation.I would like to fly the planes that I`ve read about.
I fly LW planes most the time,and I fly the seafire coz there`s no carrier based LW plane in AH.Would I like to see one?Hell no.
The Graf Zeppelin didn`t make it out of the shipyard by war`s end,so I see no point of modelling any seabased LW planes in AH.
And I see no point of turning AH into some kind of WWII arial hot rod show.
I would have much more fun in a 109E bashing
Mark I spits and hurricanes ,than chasing any super mustang in my was-gonna-fly-in-1946 whatever kind of mega fighter.
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I have to say again, I support the "no planes that didn't see WWII combat" and I'm definately no Luftwobble.
I played in every large-scale WB scenario from after Kiel to when Pyro and HT left...Solomons, Pointblank, etc.
And I didn't play German or Japanese in a single one. And was Allied in Afrika Corps. No Luftwobble would do that :-)
My point is essentially one of timing.
Sure, 10 years from now when we're all playing Virtual Reality AH (with pilot-hit "Virtual Pain(tm)", and they've modeled 567 WWII aircraft and are out of ideas, sure, start tossing in the P-51H and the Bearcat and the P-80 and the Amerika Bomber and whatever the hell that German thing was that the F-86 and the Mig-15 were ripped off from.
But we have so many fascinating ACTUAL WWII COMBAT AC to model first.
I will be pretty damn disappointed if we get a P-51H before a:
P-63 Kingcobra
IAR-80
Beaufighter
Finnish Brewster Buffalo
Tu-2
Me-410
J2M3 Raiden
Sm-79 Sparviero
Etc. Etc. Etc.
The "excitement" of continually adding late-war uber-aircraft, or non-WWII combat, or prototype fantasy aircraft, is sort of a "false" thrill.
It SOUNDS great. But it will get boring after a while. Like an old D & D campaign where the GM would keep having you find 50,000 gold pieces and a +60 Sword of Ultimate Doom in every other room. It's cool for a little bit. But quickly becomes tiresome.
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-29-2001).]
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"This is said to be a WWII simulation"
Again. You are wrong Tom666. It is a place where people come and try out WWII modelled aircraft in online combat.
As for not having something because it did not see action during a specific period? Bah.
That is like having a replication of teams in a famous sports event from history (1975 World Serios, 1972 Stanley Cup, etc etc) and making one team's hands tied because in the actual game some of thier players weren't needed get in the game as they kicked bellybutton withou them anyway. But the other team tried playing every one, including the janitor and it's mascot, to try and recover, to no avail. So we players, years after the event, are given the means to preplay the events from long agao..oh! ...But one team is being allowed everything on the field while the other has to forego it's bench warmers. To hell with that. I for one am going to enjoy AH with the perks - TA-152, DO-335, P51H, Meteor, whatever. And fyi, I'm also going to enjoy the hell out of the "Rata", Buffalo or A5M when we get them too.
-Westy
(thanks DW6 <G> )
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-30-2001).]
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The "Rasta" comes from Jamaica .. the "RATA" from russia Westy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
DW6
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Thank You Torgo,at least someone gets my point.
Westy , your comment makes no sense whatsoever.