Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Spirit on October 29, 2013, 05:08:04 PM

Title: Clouds
Post by: Spirit on October 29, 2013, 05:08:04 PM
<<S>>

I'm part of the "circus" for one month only, the game is simply fantastic !

Thanks Hitech for this !



One thing : Clouds are excellent and well modeled in the game, but why so few ?

During WWII fights, clouds were a -big- part of the fight : why about adding more ?


- کpirit.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on October 29, 2013, 05:42:00 PM
Alas, frame-rate loss wasn't a big part of WWII dogfighting.

(More clouds = bigger hit to frame-rate.)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Spirit on October 29, 2013, 06:20:48 PM
Too bad, they r really excellent...

By the way, it was a problem for most of us 5y+ ago, but now, with improved systems, it might b time
to check if it's possible ?

Adding 10% more, then 25%, just to have feedback about impact ingame... :)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Lusche on October 29, 2013, 06:35:30 PM
By the way, it was a problem for most of us 5y+ ago, but now, with improved systems, it might b time
to check if it's possible ?


Already happened. Clouds had to be massively reduced...
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on October 29, 2013, 06:40:15 PM
Too bad, they r really excellent...

By the way, it was a problem for most of us 5y+ ago, but now, with improved systems, it might b time
to check if it's possible ?

Adding 10% more, then 25%, just to have feedback about impact ingame... :)

What a thought.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345025.0.html
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Spirit on October 29, 2013, 07:16:25 PM
Yeah, i should work for Hitech lol   :D

What a thought.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345025.0.html
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on October 29, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
<<S>>

I'm part of the "circus" for one month only, the game is simply fantastic !

Thanks Hitech for this !



One thing : Clouds are excellent and well modeled in the game, but why so few ?

During WWII fights, clouds were a -big- part of the fight : why about adding more ?


- کpirit.
With my new PC, I can play on Hires textures and still get 60 frames  :rock
Clouds make that an instant 30.  :uhoh
 
:noid No more clouds for Whiskey

Alternative option: Make clouds a downloadable pack, like HiRes textures?

Welcome to AH2! Enjoy the new addiction.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Molsman on October 29, 2013, 10:27:33 PM
Welcome to the Game Spirit good fights the other night with your 152 but got tired of climbing to ya ya kept your E really well and some of the fights were hairy


and if your close to HTC HQ they are lookiing to fill this spot

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,352971.0.html

<S>
Molsman
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Spirit on October 30, 2013, 02:30:14 AM
<<S>> Mol,

Yea, great fights indeed, just ask Badger, i think he was hitting wall with his head at some point... :D

152 is the best to capitalise E, u just need to not let it get the full control, as it tends to be bold and likes to "force the speed limits" !  :devil

Welcome to the Game Spirit good fights the other night with your 152 but got tired of climbing to ya ya kept your E really well and some of the fights were hairy


and if your close to HTC HQ they are lookiing to fill this spot

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,352971.0.html

<S>
Molsman
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Randy1 on October 30, 2013, 06:59:16 AM
I thought the clouds were perfect.  A little here.  A little there.  I used them once to turn the tide on an La.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Sunka on October 30, 2013, 10:40:40 AM

Already happened. Clouds had to be massively reduced...
Yea cause like 10 people complained.   :neener:
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: SilverZ06 on October 30, 2013, 11:04:09 AM
Yea cause like 10 people complained.   :neener:

HTC must support those players still playing on Commodore 64s hence why the graphics still look period correct for those machines. :aok
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on October 30, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
Please stop trying to impress us with idiotheory. Thank you.  :aok
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Triton28 on October 30, 2013, 11:33:01 AM
When I was still playing on a laptop, the clouds in the MA would cause single digit frame rates.  The same thing happened in FSO, but after a few tweaks the CM's did something that gave me playable frame rates.  Whatever the CM's did for FSO should be able to be done in the MA.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: wpeters on October 30, 2013, 11:38:40 AM
-1
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: lunatic1 on October 30, 2013, 12:08:43 PM
spirit:<----shoot this guy :furious :       lol clouds are a frame rate killer
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: ImADot on October 30, 2013, 12:49:18 PM
The way that the new clouds are implemented, seems to be very hardware dependant as far as performance goes. I've heard stories from both sides, where the only real difference between machines was the brand of GFX chip being used on their video card. I use nVidia and only see a slight hit to the frames, while someone using another brand gets a slideshow.

Performance issues might also be connected to the number of clouds, and how much overlap there is among them. Fewer clouds in strategic places of differing sizes, spacing and altitudes might be a good compromise between having a flat cloudless sky and having more of that "flying" feeling that the majority of players can tolerate.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Shamus on October 30, 2013, 03:16:34 PM
Clouds were killing me when I was running a core2 E8400@ 3.0 and a 6850, switched to an I5 @3.4 and the same vid card and the clouds seem to have no effect now. 
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: RealDeal on November 03, 2013, 10:38:27 AM

Already happened. Clouds had to be massively reduced...

Wow thats convenient. Wish I could do that in real life. I've been on final more then once were the runway environment was barley in sight. Wish i could just program those clouds out of the equation because they were inconvenient.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Karnak on November 03, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
Wow thats convenient. Wish I could do that in real life. I've been on final more then once were the runway environment was barley in sight. Wish i could just program those clouds out of the equation because they were inconvenient.
Clouds don't reduce frame rates in real life.   :P
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Bizman on November 03, 2013, 12:19:24 PM
Clouds don't reduce frame rates in real life.   :P
Oh yes they do indeed! On a clear morning I wake up effortlessly even though I can't see the sky until I raise the curtain. On a cloudy day I'll be lagging the whole day through, bed-ready from a delayed get-up, getting nothing noteworthy done.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: GhostCDB on November 03, 2013, 01:04:19 PM
With or without clouds my FR is 60.

I don't like them for the simple fact it distracts me from what I am supposed to be doing.  :joystick:
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 04, 2013, 04:13:14 PM
I've used certain types of clouds in the new cloud system in about a dozen events so far, including two scenarios with large attendance.  There have been little, or in the case of the most-recent scenario, no complaints of frame-rate problems.

I think that light to moderate clouds could be done in the Main Arena with little or no impact on players.

There might be types of clouds that you can put in (ones that do create frame-rate problems); and there might be a small number of players that has frame-rate problems (would have to be less than 0.5% of players, or I would have noticed it in events by now, though).

Here are the sort of clouds that haven't cause problems for me in events:

Very light clouds:
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201303_mediterraneanMaelstrom/pics/frame4/001-1stEngage-SNAG-0013.jpg)

Moderate clouds:
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame3/005b-viewBack-SNAG-0009.jpg)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 04, 2013, 04:20:16 PM
Some more examples from the "Battle of Britain 2013" scenario than ran last month:

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame1/012-approachTarget-SNAG-0017.jpg)

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame2/018-hits-SNAG-0032.jpg)

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame3/018-bombsAwayA40-SNAG-0029.jpg)

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame4/010-results-SNAG-0017.jpg)

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame3/017-sgDown-SNAG-0027.jpg)

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame2/020-bombsAway-SNAG-0034.jpg)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: MK-84 on November 05, 2013, 12:37:11 AM
This is weird:
I do not have any problems with clouds at all.  The frame rate drop for me is completely negligible and my pc is nothing to brag about at all being somewhat of a "hotdog" being pieced together from bits here and there. Something like a 2.6?ghz quad core 4gb ram and a nvidia geforce 9800 gt.  Shadowing kills my FR, bump mapping kills my FR, Detailed terrain is a huge draw (water isnt). Clouds are not.  I wonder if there's some specific computer aspect thingy that the clouds need?  (obviously I am not a pc guy)
Interestingly enough my hard drive failed a week or so ago and (It wasn't it good shape when I put it in) and I switched to a ssd drive and there was a world of difference in performance for AH, something I totally was not expecting.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 05, 2013, 07:56:00 AM
I think part of it involves the type of vid card one uses. You and I both use nvidia.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: david625 on November 06, 2013, 08:15:21 AM
Radeon user here! No problems with clouds effecting FPS here  :airplane:





P.S. Brooke those pictures are amazing! Front page material!
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 06, 2013, 11:41:29 AM
Thanks, David!  :aok
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Wiley on November 06, 2013, 12:02:55 PM
I think part of it involves the type of vid card one uses. You and I both use nvidia.

I don't think that's necessarily true Arlo.  I'm not running much of a rig, just an I5 3.3GHz and a 1GB ATI 5770, 8 GB RAM.  No overclock.  Clouds don't bother me in the slightest, and the only thing I don't have turned on is environment mapping and my shadows aren't at the largest size.  60fps unless I'm taking off at a crowded airfield in FSO.  Clouds don't affect me as far as I can see.

I haven't upgraded my video drivers in an eternity as I'm a big believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" when it comes to video drivers.  I wonder if that plays a part.  I also wonder if CPU has more of an impact on clouds than one might think.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 06, 2013, 02:34:21 PM
I don't think only NVidia cards work acceptably for clouds.  I've run a dozen special events with clouds in the new system, including two scenarios.  That's enough people to cover a wide range of computer hardware.  There were very few remarks of frame-rate hits.

There is the possibility that particular types of clouds cause more impact.  For example, I haven't used the huge anvil cumulus clouds in an event yet, so I don't know whether or not they have much frame-rate impact.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on November 07, 2013, 07:01:37 PM
What if we turn clouds into a downloadable pack, similar to HiRes textures? That way you don't see them if it kills your FR  :noid
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 08:17:28 PM
What if we turn clouds into a downloadable pack, similar to HiRes textures? That way you don't see them if it kills your FR  :noid

I believe clouds are considered more than eye candy. They are tactical cover. As such, the clouds have to be rendered the same on all machines.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: guncrasher on November 07, 2013, 09:04:10 PM
I don't think only NVidia cards work acceptably for clouds.  I've run a dozen special events with clouds in the new system, including two scenarios.  That's enough people to cover a wide range of computer hardware.  There were very few remarks of frame-rate hits.

There is the possibility that particular types of clouds cause more impact.  For example, I haven't used the huge anvil cumulus clouds in an event yet, so I don't know whether or not they have much frame-rate impact.

brooke I have never had a problem with clouds in fso and I have seen some heavy ones.  but in a couple of maps specially the one with the center tt and heavy clouds, my fps goes down to 30.  I cant really fly around tt.  I think some maps may have a bug or two around some places.  there's also another base, I cant remember the map where my fps drop to around 20.  so I never fly around there.


semp
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 08, 2013, 06:36:23 PM
brooke I have never had a problem with clouds in fso and I have seen some heavy ones.  but in a couple of maps specially the one with the center tt and heavy clouds, my fps goes down to 30.  I cant really fly around tt.  I think some maps may have a bug or two around some places.  there's also another base, I cant remember the map where my fps drop to around 20.  so I never fly around there.


semp

I suspect it's not the map so much as a combination of number of ground items being rendered and the thickness/type of clouds at that part of the map.

If tank town had light sparse clouds, maybe it would be OK.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: LCADolby on November 09, 2013, 02:11:23 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on November 09, 2013, 07:58:15 AM
I believe clouds are considered more than eye candy. They are tactical cover. As such, the clouds have to be rendered the same on all machines.
With all do respect I don't like playing with a frame rate of 30 with clouds, I'll keep my 60 at ground level thank you  :noid
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: guncrasher on November 09, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: LCADolby on November 09, 2013, 11:14:11 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 09, 2013, 11:55:38 AM
With all do respect I don't like playing with a frame rate of 30 with clouds, I'll keep my 60 at ground level thank you  :noid

With all do respect, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was simply pointing out why clouds aren't a player end option.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 09, 2013, 03:28:05 PM
You guys talking about clouds giving a frame-rate hit:

-- I've run clouds in 20 special events.
-- I've run them in two scenarios.
-- I've gotten four comments of frame rate hits out of 500 or more players.

I don't see any problem with clouds and have used them and flown in them *a lot*.  I have a computer system that is equivalent of a $600 system today (i.e., quite modest).
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 09, 2013, 03:40:06 PM
You guys talking about clouds giving a frame-rate hit:

-- I've run clouds in 20 special events.
-- I've run them in two scenarios.
-- I've gotten four comments of frame rate hits out of 500 or more players.

I don't see any problem with clouds and have used them and flown in them *a lot*.  I have a computer system that is equivalent of a $600 system today (i.e., quite modest).

Ah, but take into consideration that you've gotten responses, I've gotten them, most of the guys in my squad have either gotten them or experienced it, others on the forum have mentioned it and it's likely more than 4 we're talking about. The comments that HTC has received via their email feedback links have more impact and if they've gotten enough to act on it, then that's probably way more than 4, as well.  ;)

Having said that, I'm not having cloud issues even when more coulds were featured ( I enjoyed them immensely)..... but it's not all about me.  :salute :cheers:
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 09, 2013, 04:00:29 PM
it's likely more than 4 we're talking about.

I don't think so.  When I run an event, if there is something to complain about, I get complained at.  I do think out of about 500 players, about 1% have any issue that they blame on clouds.  And out of them, probably about half are not having an issue with clouds per se but don't know what they are doing to adjust any graphics settings at all, and the other half have some frame-rate hit because they are playing on ancient hardware.

The difference is that I'm using fairly light to moderate clouds in events of particular cloud types that don't seem to have much impact.

Also, 1% complaint rate for special events is not a significant amount of complaining.  I get more complaints than that about any particular aspect ("the ships are too far away", "the ships are too close", "there are too many of plane X", "there are too few of plane X", "plane Y isn't a good substitute for plane Z, so your event is crap", etc.) than I ever did about clouds causing frame-rate issues.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 09, 2013, 06:34:39 PM
I don't think so.

Ok. I got nothing against you, your events or clouds (actually I consider you
a valued and valuable friend from as far back as AW and have enjoyed your
events every time I've participated). Perhaps you should take it up with Dale
and company who seem to have a different opinion.

 :salute :cheers: :)
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Brooke on November 10, 2013, 04:01:56 PM
Ok. I got nothing against you, your events or clouds (actually I consider you
a valued and valuable friend from as far back as AW and have enjoyed your
events every time I've participated). Perhaps you should take it up with Dale
and company who seem to have a different opinion.

 :salute :cheers: :)

I like you, too, Arlo!  :aok

I think it might not be difference of opinion so much as difference of threshold.  For me, in special events, clouds add a lot to the realism.  So, if 0.5% or 1% of the players have some issue, we still would use them because the positive outweighs that negative.  In the MA, most players don't seem to care a great deal about clouds, and HTC would likely get a lot more negative feedback from 0.1% of the player base that thinks it has an issue than positive feedback from folks who like clouds.  The MA cost/benefit ratio is different than in events.
Title: Re: Clouds
Post by: Arlo on November 10, 2013, 05:37:56 PM
I think it might not be difference of opinion so much as difference of threshold.  ....  The MA cost/benefit ratio is different than in events.

I consider this a valid point.  :)