Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GScholz on November 03, 2013, 04:12:24 PM
-
Oldman (et al.) in this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,354123.45.html you made the following claim:
I think that the Luftwaffe had a fairly lax standard of kill confirmation, air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-sea (in the case of the Marat, at least). They talked a good talk, but there are too many inconsistencies in claims made vs. kills which actually occurred to make me believe that the Luftwaffe standards were as rigorous as the US or British, who had routine gun camera film which was routinely examined by independent intelligence officers...
Yesterday BaldEagl posted a video of James Swett's action in Guadalcanal that earned him a Medal of Honor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadMxLadg18
I also looked up Mr. Swett's page on wikipedia:
"Medal of Honor action
On April 7, 1943, on his first combat mission, Swett both became an ace and acted with such "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty" that he would be awarded the Medal of Honor.[2][3]
His first mission was as a division leader on a combat air patrol over the Russell Islands early on the morning of April 7 in expectation of a large Japanese air attack. Landing to refuel, the four-plane division of F4F Wildcats he was leading was scrambled after other aircraft reported 150 planes approaching Ironbottom Sound, and intercepted a large formation of Japanese Aichi D3A dive bombers (Allied code name: "Val") attacking Tulagi harbor.[2]
When the fight became a general melee, Swett pursued three Vals diving on the harbor. After shooting down two, and while taken under fire from the rear gunner of the third, the left wing of his F4F was holed by U.S. antiaircraft fire directed at the Japanese. Despite this, he shot down the third Val and turned toward a second formation of six Vals leaving the area.[2]
Swett repeatedly attacked the line of dive bombers, downing each in turn with short bursts. He brought down four and was attacking a fifth when his ammunition was depleted and he had his cockpit shot up by return fire. Wounded, he decided to ditch his damaged fighter off the coast of Florida Island, after it became clear that his oil cooler had been hit and he would not make it back to base. After a few seconds of further flight, his engine seized, and despite initially being trapped in his cockpit, Swett extricated himself and was subsequently rescued in Tulagi harbor after crash-landing his Wildcat. This feat made the 22-year-old Marine aviator an ace on his first combat mission.[2]"
So here's my question: How was Mr. Swett's victories confirmed?
It was his first combat mission. He apparently was alone during this action. I presume the guncam footage went down with his plane (was it salvaged?). He earned the MoH for this so there must be something I'm missing?
Also: A MoH for this? Shooting down seven Val dive bombers? In the video he even laughs at how easy they were to flame as they kept formation and flew straight and level. It certainly doesn't seem comparable to the actions of other MoH recipients like Audie Murphy or Rodger Young.
Am I missing something here?
-
Might his actions have been confirmed by the AA gunners on the ground?
-
So here's my question: How was Mr. Swett's victories confirmed?
It was his first combat mission. He apparently was alone during this action. I presume the guncam footage went down with his plane (was it salvaged?). He earned the MoH for this so there must be something I'm missing?
Also: A MoH for this? Shooting down seven Val dive bombers? In the video he even laughs at how easy they were to flame as they kept formation and flew straight and level. It certainly doesn't seem comparable to the actions of other MoH recipients like Audie Murphy or Rodger Young.
Am I missing something here?
That's THREE questions!
Karnak appears to have answered the first already. A quick online check found this: "His claim of seven victories and a possible eighth was greeted with a certain amount of skepticism at first, but an intelligence officer interviewed witnesses to the battle and was able to confirm his story." http://www.conservapedia.com/James_Swett. Don't know what the source for that was, though. Marseille should have had such luck when he claimed 17 planes in a day, right?
I really can't answer the second question. Obviously his attack was voluntarily made against huge odds, numerically at least. But I share your sense that this is not the same thing as smothering a grenade to save your friends. Hey, I'm not the one who makes the decision.
As to question number three...I give up!
- oldman
-
Karnak appears to have answered the first already. A quick online check found this: "His claim of seven victories and a possible eighth was greeted with a certain amount of skepticism at first, but an intelligence officer interviewed witnesses to the battle and was able to confirm his story." http://www.conservapedia.com/James_Swett. Don't know what the source for that was, though. Marseille should have had such luck when he claimed 17 planes in a day, right?
Conservapedia makes Wikipedia look like the Library of Congress.
-
As to question number three...I give up!
- oldman
Answer: pretty much so.
-
Might his actions have been confirmed by the AA gunners on the ground?
The first three kills perhaps. Though the AA gunners thought Swett was the enemy and kept shooting at him after he had downed the three Vals, so I'd be surprised if they didn't claim those kills for themselves.
-
That's THREE questions!
I can't argue with that! ;)
Karnak appears to have answered the first already. A quick online check found this: "His claim of seven victories and a possible eighth was greeted with a certain amount of skepticism at first, but an intelligence officer interviewed witnesses to the battle and was able to confirm his story." http://www.conservapedia.com/James_Swett. Don't know what the source for that was, though. Marseille should have had such luck when he claimed 17 planes in a day, right?
I wonder what witnesses there were to the last four kills as he was chasing the Vals out over the Pacific. If other US fighters were around they would surely have joined in to help him attack the Val formation.
As for the jab at Marseilles, he usually flew with a whole squadron who did little more than watch his back and learn from the Star of Africa as he attacked enemy formations on his own. If he got into trouble the rest of the staffeln would swoop in and cherry pick... I'm obviously exaggerating, but not as much as most would think. When it came to protecting and assisting their aerial heroes, Luftwaffe units went to extraordinary efforts to help "their" hero gain fame; it was ultimately detrimental to Luftwaffe effectiveness as sometimes a whole squadron was reduced to just one "experten" fighting the enemy with 10+ wingmen just protecting him. While the western Allies frowned upon personal glory, the Germans promoted it.
I really can't answer the second question. Obviously his attack was voluntarily made against huge odds, numerically at least. But I share your sense that this is not the same thing as smothering a grenade to save your friends. Hey, I'm not the one who makes the decision.
That's what I was thinking. Hell... In the RAF he might even have been berated for risking his expensively-trained-life and losing his aircraft in such a careless way just to shoot down a few retreating Stukas. The British are different I guess.
-
The British are different I guess.
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/detective2.gif) (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/rwrk2/media/detective2.gif.html)
-
While the western Allies frowned upon personal glory, the Germans promoted it.
Heh.
- oldman
-
Regarding Medal of Honor winning fighter pilots. I think you have to take into consideration the politics involved. Note there was exactly one MoH fighter pilot in the ETO. There was one in the MTO. Thats four separate Air Forces, the 8th, 9th, 12th and 15th.
Now look at the 5th AF in the PTO. Bong, McGuire, Kearby and Shomo come to mind. Four Air Forces produce 2 winners and one Air Force produces four winners? Kind of makes you think there were different standards for awarding the medal depending on where you were.
Throw in that nine Marine fighter pilots got the MoH and it really makes you wonder. Throw in the two Navy winners and fifteen of seventeen MoH were awarded in the PTO. Seems a bit off unless you consider the Europe first approach to the war and the fight the PTO commanders had to make for resources. I'd guess that the PR from the MoH winners was part of that effort.
-
Regarding medals read this: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903596904576516302821089790 (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903596904576516302821089790)
-
... fifteen of seventeen MoH were awarded in the PTO.
Shooting down Japanese post-Pearl Harbor to please.
-
Regarding medals read this:
Excellent. Thanks for that.
- oldman
-
Conservapedia makes Wikipedia look like the Library of Congress.
What's wrong with it?
-
See Rule #14
-
What's wrong with it?
http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution
If you can read that page and tell me with a straight face that it is unbiased, then I wouldn't want to play poker with you.
-
...
-
See Rule #14
-
1/2 serious, 1/2 joke. It is biased, but you can't say those media outlets are not.
I hadn't read the evo page before my post, hence the edit.
Standing down...