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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: doright on November 06, 2013, 05:16:19 PM

Title: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: doright on November 06, 2013, 05:16:19 PM
Went to a lecture last night that had a former Blue Angle speaking. He said in fleet operations it was a matter of squadron pride to have the first plane hit the deck 15 secs after the CV had completed its turn into the wind. Remember that the next time someones cussing about the CV being turned.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: pembquist on November 06, 2013, 05:54:02 PM
Yeah, but I'm guessing their cv doesn't stagger around like a drunk when it changes heading.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Mace2004 on November 06, 2013, 05:59:04 PM
Yeah, but I'm guessing their cv doesn't stagger around like a drunk when it changes heading.
You'd be surprised..."3/4 mile, call the ball, ship's in a turn."
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: MK-84 on November 06, 2013, 06:38:51 PM
Yeah, but I'm guessing their cv doesn't stagger around like a drunk when it changes heading.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/US_Navy_100227-N-4408B-676_The_aircraft_carrier_USS_George_H.W._Bush_(CVN_77),_the_Navy's_10th_and_final_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_heels_hard_to_starboard_during_high-speed_turn_drills.jpg)
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: DREDIOCK on November 06, 2013, 07:14:32 PM
Went to a lecture last night that had a former Blue Angle speaking. He said in fleet operations it was a matter of squadron pride to have the first plane hit the deck 15 secs after  into the wind. Remember that the next time someones cussing about the CV being turned.

"after the CV had COMPLETED its turn" is the operative part of that. Which isnt what people complain about. A CV that has completed its turn isnt a problem for most. Its the ones that start and are in the process of turning as your trying ot land that are the problem.

The larger CV problem in game though isnt the turning CV's. Its the clueless dolts that bring the CV into range and aim of the shore batteries without first taking them out and not bothering to take the ammo down
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: pembquist on November 06, 2013, 07:42:44 PM
I don't mean heeling or being in a constant turn I mean that oscillating back and forth thing. Though the real complaint I am assuming is that a player is landing and suddenly the boat starts turning not that the boat is turning and the final heading is known and you have set up your approach for it but only have 15 seconds between when it stops turning and when you should land on it or you will feel ashamed.

As complaints go whining about turning boats takes second place in tediousness to whining about not getting a check 6 call,(obviously just my opinion.)
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 06, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Grrrrrr! Yaaaaar!  :D

(Dang, forgot the film viewer can't track a turning CV.)  :lol
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Scherf on November 06, 2013, 08:30:20 PM
In AH it's not landing that's the friggin problem, it's trying to get back off again as the LVTs are about to enter town with one ack up, a T-34 on the way and buildings starting to pop.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: caldera on November 06, 2013, 09:54:48 PM
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/Aces%20High%20Motivational%20Posters/higherrank-1.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/Aces%20High%20Motivational%20Posters/higherrank-1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: MrGeezer on November 06, 2013, 10:20:57 PM
Went to a lecture last night that had a former Blue Angle speaking. He said in fleet operations it was a matter of squadron pride to have the first plane hit the deck 15 secs after the CV had completed its turn into the wind. Remember that the next time someones cussing about the CV being turned.

Sad to say, and an in-game fact, there are indeed those who turn the carrier just to greif the game of those taking off or landing.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 06, 2013, 10:39:59 PM
Sad to say, and an in-game fact, there are indeed those who turn the carrier just to greif the game of those taking off or landing.

They're pretty much in for a disappointment with my squadron.  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58k4te5WFLQ&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: SIK1 on November 07, 2013, 01:34:42 AM
I don't usually have a problem landing when the cv is turning, it's taking off that I find difficult.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 01:49:22 AM
Full flaps .... not so full fuel .... rudder, rudder, rudder.  :)
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: SIK1 on November 07, 2013, 01:53:25 AM
Yeah, I can do it I just find it more difficult than landing. It's also not always viable taking off light on fuel.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 01:55:28 AM
Yeah, I can do it I just find it more difficult than landing. It's also not always viable taking off light on fuel.

Sure, but this is the scenario brought up:

In AH it's not landing that's the friggin problem, it's trying to get back off again as the LVTs are about to enter town with one ack up, a T-34 on the way and buildings starting to pop.

Light fuel scenario.  :) :salute :cheers:
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: bozon on November 07, 2013, 02:27:16 AM
I don't usually have a problem landing when the cv is turning, it's taking off that I find difficult.
I think HTC have an intentionally low friction between the tires and the runway/deck. Even at low speeds planes easily skid sideways on the tires, as if the tarmac is covered with oil. I suppose the reason the did this is to reduce the number of collapsed gears events due to skids on touchdowns and/or excessive swings on takeoff runs.

Anyway, the result is that the CV is turning under you without taking the plane with it. Left turns are the hardest because they throw you into the superstructure. Even left rudder does not help that much once you started drifting to the right, because combined with the low friction it gets the plane into a right sideways skid that results in the wing/tail hitting the structure.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: mbailey on November 07, 2013, 06:04:24 AM
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/Aces%20High%20Motivational%20Posters/higherrank-1.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/Aces%20High%20Motivational%20Posters/higherrank-1.jpg.html)

 :rofl :rofl :aok
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Randy1 on November 07, 2013, 06:35:57 AM
Some of our Navy guys could answer this.  Is the AH hard CV turn modeled do able by the WW2 class CV's
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: PuppetZ on November 07, 2013, 08:15:10 AM
...
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Slash27 on November 07, 2013, 08:52:43 AM
I don't usually have a problem landing when the cv is turning, it's taking off that I find difficult.
:aok
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 01:58:13 PM
Some of our Navy guys could answer this.  Is the AH hard CV turn modeled do able by the WW2 class CV's

WWII Essex class carriers could do over thirty knots top speed and probably could turn as well as (if not better) than the super-carriers that came after.

(http://acidcow.com/pics/20090709/pics/5/turning_an_aircraft_carrier_02.jpg)

The YouTube vid I posted earlier using Fraps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58k4te5WFLQ was made from one film with multiple take-offs and landings from an AHII CV that was in a constant turning state (one direction or another). It merely takes practice and full flaps.













Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: pembquist on November 07, 2013, 02:41:21 PM
The elevator/railing to port messes me up.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 02:45:08 PM
The elevator/railing to port messes me up.

Jump it. You'll note that on at least one take off I was able to get the wheels off deck before they hit the railing.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: smedddd on November 07, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
Nimitz Class CVNs turn just fine for their size; fast or slow. What they cannot do is take large rolls with millions of dollars of aircraft chained to the deck. Too risky.

The pics you see of CVNs heeling over are all sea trials pics; ie: no planes on deck.




hook down - gear down - flaps down - 1/4 mile - call the ball!!!!!



V/R, former qualified CVN-70 OOD
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Crash Orange on November 07, 2013, 03:48:07 PM
I don't mean heeling or being in a constant turn I mean that oscillating back and forth thing.

That's just bad modeling - waaay underdamping. It is essentially throwing the rudder hard over until the bow passes the desired heading, then throwing the rudder hard over the other way until the bow again crosses the desired heading, rinse, repeat. Any helmsman with more than 5 minutes' experience would know better than to do this. The result is that it takes 2-3 minutes after the turn is completed (i.e., the bow has first passed through the plotted heading) for the ship to settle out on the desired course rather than taking a few seconds like it should. It's a real pet peeve of mine. The effect on ship gunnery is far worse than the effects on takeoffs or landings - the only real effect on the latter two after the first 20 seconds or so is that you can't use auto-takeoff.

I think HTC have an intentionally low friction between the tires and the runway/deck.

I think it's a lot more likely that they simply didn't account at all for the effect of any lateral movement of the runway under the plane because they were modeling a land runway that's fixed and CVs were just an afterthought.
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 03:55:33 PM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img607/9465/e3qm.jpg)


Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Arlo on November 07, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
I think it's a lot more likely that they simply didn't account at all for the effect of any lateral movement of the runway under the plane because they were modeling a land runway that's fixed and CVs were just an afterthought.

A fortunate side effect is the ability to reposition your plane further back on the deck when you apply slight throttle and rudder. Technically, we can 'spot' without a deck crew.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img546/453/g6ma.png)
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: Fud on November 07, 2013, 05:18:07 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/US_Navy_100227-N-4408B-676_The_aircraft_carrier_USS_George_H.W._Bush_(CVN_77),_the_Navy's_10th_and_final_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_heels_hard_to_starboard_during_high-speed_turn_drills.jpg)

Nice pic....The Bush and Roosevelt are currently parked across the water from me and the USS Kearsarge just came back after an 8 month deployment...
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: The Fugitive on November 07, 2013, 06:20:45 PM
I spent almost 3 years onboard the USS Eisenhower CVN69 out of Norfolk. Recovery and launch were always done with the ship as steady as possible facing into the wind. Of course the planes we were launching and recovering are just a bit heavier and have a bit less wing to them. Landing speeds were in the 200 mph area and every little bit of wind you could add coming over the bow helped.

Also remember the newer CVs have an off center landing zone. So the planes have to come in from starboard to port while the sea is bouncing the nose up and down and the ship is rolling left to right. For the most part they didn't run ops in a really bad weather, but I have see some of those big rolls while we had planes aboard. But to roll it that hard on purpose while loaded no.

In the game a turning CV adds a bit of a challenge, and that is where the problems come in. Far too many players are looking for that "quick" path to winning the game. None are willing to take the time to practice and learn these skills. It's much easier for them to just complain about it.  
Title: Re: Who Turned the *%$#@^% CV?
Post by: MrKrabs on November 07, 2013, 09:07:20 PM
Pffft, belly land it! Sure all that'll be left is your hotdog of a fuselage, but a survivable landing is better than nothing.