Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: artik on November 07, 2013, 04:41:20 AM
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I'm working on some SEA setup/terrain and to my surprise I have found that neither Spit V nor Spit IX have bombs load-out in AH. The historical aircraft could actually carry bombs...
1. Any ideas why?
2. Is there anything I can do about it besides replacing it with another spitfire variant?
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They are modeled as the earliest examples of each type. I am not sure when the ability to carry a 500lb bomb was added to the Mk V, but I think the F.Mk IX could carry one but just did not as it was too important to counter the Fw190 in the air.
If you are doing a setting set in mid-1943 or later the Spitfire Mk VIII is a good stand in for a Spitfire LF.Mk IX. If you are doing mid-1944 or later use the Spitfire Mk XVI. The Seafire might substitute for the Spitfire Mk V, if it has a bomb.
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They are modeled as the earliest examples of each type. I am not sure when the ability to carry a 500lb bomb was added to the Mk V, but I think the F.Mk IX could carry one but just did not as it was too important to counter the Fw190 in the air.
If you are doing a setting set in mid-1943 or later the Spitfire Mk VIII is a good stand in for a Spitfire LF.Mk IX. If you are doing mid-1944 or later use the Spitfire Mk XVI. The Seafire might substitute for the Spitfire Mk V, if it has a bomb.
He's setting up an Israeli War of Independence scenario set in 1948.
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He's setting up an Israeli War of Independence scenario set in 1948.
Yes, indeed.
REAF had Spit V, Spit IX and Macchi 205. All could carry bombs, but neither of them actually has them in AH. REAF spitfires used to bomb Tel-Aviv until the first S-199 entered the service. Also there were Hawker Sea Furies but they are missing in AH planeset.
On Israeli side I have 109G6 (S199), Mustang, Spit IXLF (actually = Spit XVI in AH) and Mosquito. Also the last one hadn't seen the action in Independence war. Most of the IAF Mosquitoes were acquired after the end of the war, but AH does not have Bristol Beaufighter, so I alter a plane set a little in terms of historical accuracy.
So basically all IAF fighter are dual role fighter/attack while neither REAF aircraft in AH is capable of executing attack missions (unlike real ones) - this isn't good at all.
So I have no attack aircraft for 1948 setup for REAF.
So I'll probably need to add one of:
- Hurricane IIc - REAF operated them before the war. According to some sources 4 still were in service when the war had began. But AFAIK they didn't see any action in the war.
- SBD (as a substitute for Harward T-6)... but it lives REAF with very weak attack forces.
For heavy bombers the situation is much better:
IAF had B-17G, REAF had Short Stirling. It is substituted by Lancaster which entered REAF service only in 1949 about 1/2 a year after the end of the war. But in terms of capabilities they are quite similar.
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Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.
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Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.
Yes, they would not have been F.Mk IXs as in AH. The Spit XVI should be used for any post war Merlin Spit use.
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Wouldn't the Egyptian Spit IXs be late models too? Just give them the XVI. Substitute the Seafire II for the Spit V. The Seafire can carry a bomb/DT.
Spit XVI has clipped wings while Egyptian Spits were regular Spit IX. Also note, IAF had clipped wings Spitfire IXLF which according to this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,353807.0.html) is XVI in AH.
As you can only have one skin per plane embedded to the terrain I can't have Spit IX or Spit XVI on both sides.
So actually the spitfire set V, IX and XVI is fine, but REAF spits are lacking A/G weapons.
About Seafire... It maybe a good idea. But... I had already skinned Spit V to REAF markings. Also substituting Spit V which is historical aircraft with Seafire which by no means had flown in Independence War IMHO is bad taste. :bolt:
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Spit XVI has clipped wings while Egyptian Spits were regular Spit IX. Also note, IAF had clipped wings Spitfire IXLF which according to this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,353807.0.html) is XVI in AH.
As you can only have one skin per plane embedded to the terrain I can't have Spit IX or Spit XVI on both sides.
So actually the spitfire set V, IX and XVI is fine, but REAF spits are lacking A/G weapons.
About Seafire... It maybe a good idea. But... I had already skinned Spit V to REAF markings. Also substituting Spit V which is historical aircraft with Seafire which by no means had flown in Independence War IMHO is bad taste. :bolt:
Clipped wings aren't what determines LF vs F vs HF. That is determined by the engine. The Merlin 61 Spitfire Mk IX is completely inappropriate for post war stuff. Use the Mk VIII as it has the same engine as the LF.Mk IX.
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The Seafire II is a navalised Spitfire V. In AH their performance is identical.
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They got Seafire IIIs anyways, far better than the Seafire II we have in AH.
About the Spit IX, read my thread on the subject, at least my OP:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,353807.0.html
Merlin 61 F.Mk IX is not at all appropriate for what you're doing. Don't be fooled by the Mk IX designation.
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The point, that "Post War" does not mean up-to-date planes... In many cases 2nd hand aircraft in poor conditions were acquired (especially by IAF that needed anything that could be received in any manner)
Exact Israeli model was Spitfire LF IXc and later Spitfire LF IXe as well.
REAF I know about Spit Vc. It seems that REAF had Spitfire LF IXe and LF IXc as well... But all Egyptian spitfires seems to have normal Wings where most Israeli, clipped ones.
Arrrhhhhh.
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The wing tips are irrelevant. They can be changed in 30 minutes at the airfield. The engine is what determines if it is an LF, F or HF.
Merlin 66 = LF (vast majority of Spit IXs)
Merlin 61 or 63 = F (AH Spit IX has a 61, only ~300 of such were built and it has the lowest performance of any Spit IX. Highly unlikely any ended up in foreign service)
Merlin 70 = HF
Spitfire Mk VIII's follow the same pattern with the engines and the one in AH has the Merlin 66.
The Spitfire Mk XVI had an American built Merlin 66 called the Merlin 266 and is thus effectively just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.
There is no such thing as a Spitfire Mk IXc.
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The wing tips are irrelevant. They can be changed in 30 minutes at the airfield. The engine is what determines if it is an LF, F or HF.
Merlin 66 = LF (vast majority of Spit IXs)
Merlin 61 or 63 = F (AH Spit IX has a 61, only ~300 of such were built and it has the lowest performance of any Spit IX. Highly unlikely any ended up in foreign service)
Merlin 70 = HF
Spitfire Mk VIII's follow the same pattern with the engines and the one in AH has the Merlin 66.
The Spitfire Mk XVI had an American built Merlin 66 called the Merlin 266 and is thus effectively just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX.
If XVI is LF Mk IX, What is VIII in terms of IX?
There is no such thing as a Spitfire Mk IXc.
:O :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry
Ok... Thanks!!! :rock
Not that I'm less confused I just understand that I understand less than I thought.
So I basically can give IAF Spitfire XVI and REAF Spitfire VIII and it should be ok?
I had collected the set of Photos of REAF spitfires... Any chance to distinguish between them?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lYvxMG9q7wc/TUpcASKuLiI/AAAAAAAACIQ/nGTmo4SjOsU/s1600/Picture%2B18.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Egyptian_Plane_TA_1948.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eQNPu6zzxaU/TG_3nqu-C9I/AAAAAAAAx8s/0ZAkywmA9i8/s640/15298039.jpg
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-shot-down-by-Lou-Lenart-Eygpt-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-pilots-pose-for-a-photo-Eygpt-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkIX-REAF-shot-down-near-the-Eygptian-boarder-1948-01.html
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/LFIX-EAF-661/pages/Spitfire-MkVb-Trop-REAF-White-C-ER602-Egypt-1946-01.html
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So I basically can give IAF Spitfire XVI and REAF Spitfire VIII and it should be ok?
Yes, that is what I would do.
The AH models would be this in terms in IXs:
Spitfire Mk XVI = Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with clipped wings
Spitfire Mk VIII = Spitfire LF.Mk IX with full span universal wing (the thing that is mistakenly called a "c" wing in Mk IXs and was a "c" wing on Mk Vs.)
The Spit VIII has wing tanks, a retractable tail wheel and short span ailerons that are different from the Mk IX, but it is the closest match we have to a full span LF.Mk IX in AH.
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Yes, that is what I would do.
The AH models would be this in terms in IXs:
Spitfire Mk XVI = Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with clipped wings
Spitfire Mk VIII = Spitfire LF.Mk IX with full span universal wing (the thing that is mistakenly called a "c" wing in Mk IXs and was a "c" wing on Mk Vs.)
The Spit VIII has wing tanks, a retractable tail wheel and short span ailerons that are different from the Mk IX, but it is the closest match we have to a full span LF.Mk IX in AH.
Many thanks!!! :salute
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Many thanks!!! :salute
My pleasure. <S>
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Yes, indeed.
REAF had Spit V, Spit IX and Macchi 205. All could carry bombs, but neither of them actually has them in AH. REAF spitfires used to bomb Tel-Aviv until the first S-199 entered the service. Also there were Hawker Sea Furies but they are missing in AH planeset.
On Israeli side I have 109G6 (S199), Mustang, Spit IXLF (actually = Spit XVI in AH) and Mosquito. Also the last one hadn't seen the action in Independence war. Most of the IAF Mosquitoes were acquired after the end of the war, but AH does not have Bristol Beaufighter, so I alter a plane set a little in terms of historical accuracy.
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IAF had B-17G, REAF had Short Stirling.
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I think the Egyptian Spits were late model 9's, so you can easily use our 8 model instead.
The Israeli spits were a hodge podge of models. A few were late model 9's that were smuggled out of Britain, but many of the others were bastardized versions that were bought around the world in pieces and assembled in Israel. A famous one was being hastily built from various pieces and was missing some metal plate. Mechanics raided junk yards around Tel Aviv and found a suitable piece that had a "Kneset 6" cigarette poster on it. As far as I remember the plane was named "Kneset 6" after it :)
Mosquito VIs arrived post war. The first mossie was a photo-recon model (PR.XVI?) that arrived in July 1948 and made sorties over the neighboring countries. The story how it got to Israel is an interesting one and I may post it here sometime.
The Israeli B17 made exactly one bombing run over Egypt and was never used again. A strategic bomber was completely unsuited to the Israeli airforce.
Israel had 4 Beaufighters that were stolen in a special operation. Beaufighters made some important ground support and suffered badly from ground fire. Since you mentioned Sea Furry, one Beaufighter was attacked by an Egyptian(?) Sea Furry and dragged it into a low alt fight during which the Furry augered. We need Beaufighters in the game, they were clearly uber. You can use Tempests as a Furry stand-in, even though the latter was better.
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The Israeli spits were a hodge podge of models. A few were late model 9's that were smuggled out of Britain, but many of the others were bastardized versions that were bought around the world in pieces and assembled in Israel. A famous one was being hastily built from various pieces and was missing some metal plate. Mechanics raided junk yards around Tel Aviv and found a suitable piece that had a "Kneset 6" cigarette poster on it. As far as I remember the plane was named "Kneset 6" after it :)
It is correct for the first spitfires, but later were purchased in good condition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Velvetta
The Israeli B17 made exactly one bombing run over Egypt and was never used again. A strategic bomber was completely unsuited to the Israeli airforce.
They had actually were used for tactical bombing. They bombed in Gaza, Rafah. They bombed the airfield in El-Arish.
Mosquito VIs arrived post war. The first mossie was a photo-recon model (PR.XVI?) that arrived in July 1948 and made sorties over the neighboring countries. The story how it got to Israel is an interesting one and I may post it here sometime.
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Israel had 4 Beaufighters that were stolen in a special operation. Beaufighters made some important ground support and suffered badly from ground fire.
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AH2 does not have Beaufighters. So substituting them with Mosquitos makes sense, especially that they were available shortly after the war. Same as substituting REAF Short Stirling with Lancaster that joined REAF in late 1949
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They had actually were used for tactical bombing. They bombed in Gaza, Rafah. They bombed the airfield in El-Arish.
Thanks, I now realize that this is an entire chapter of IAF history that I was ignorant about. They did indeed do quite a few bombing sorties. I'm trying to dig up some more of their operations and how exactly they were used. Three B17s are not exactly a strategic bombing force and from the limited info I found they never encountered an enemy aircraft, which means they were not sent on long range raids. Also, at least initially only one of the three B17s had a bomb sight...
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they used external view :P
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For an idea of post-ww2 Tempest performance,
-check out the graph shown in this article,
marked 'Standard Tempest 6'
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%201660.html
418 mph at sea level, not too shabby..
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For an RAF Tempest pilot's account of air action against the IAF Spitfires..
See here [paragraph 21],
http://www.hawkertempest.se/Tempests19471949.htm
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For an RAF Tempest pilot's account of air action against the IAF Spitfires..
See here [paragraph 21],
http://www.hawkertempest.se/Tempests19471949.htm
There were several incidents where RAF get in between.
In one case Mosquito was doing regular reconnanse over Israel territory until it was shut down by newly arrived P-51D. It was later discovered it was a Mosquito from a RAF squadron based in Kabrit ari base near the Suez Canal.
In another case RAF spitfires penetrated to Israeli territory and got in the middle of REAF strafing an Israeli column when the 101's squadron spitfires got to intercept REAF forces. IIRC two RAF spitfires were shut down. Than more RAF forces returned including Tempests. Some of them where shut down too.
It was also noticed that RAF tempest almost shoot down RAF spitfires involved because both IAF and RAF flew them and RAF treated every Spitfire as non-friendly by mistake.
In any case when the details become clear it was a shock for IAF, because many ex-RAF pilots where flying for IAF 101 squadron (most of the IAF stuff was Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahal_(Israel))).
The funeral both RAF and IAF stuff was present.
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& Artik, here is another article on the subject, that may be of interest..
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.HTM