Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Slade on November 09, 2013, 02:55:52 PM
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Hello all,
Besides aesthetics, which do you see as technically better for ACM at altitudes most often used in this game and why?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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I like the match up. Might come down to who's flying.
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Versus each other, or vs the typical plane set encountered?
In either case, I'd give the nod to the cat over the jug, even in a slow speed knife fight. The cat simply has more power to play with at slower speeds, even tho' the jug has a higher top-end. The real limiting factor is their respective ranges - the jug has more useful loiter time when upping from an airfield. The jug can also kind of escape from more enemies (ha, ha, right?) than the f6 - that top-end.
Having said that, I'm more a jug driver than a kitty.... I simply never could get used to it. Probably an avoidance response since coming from air warrior my two "rides" were the f6 and p-38, neither of which I could quite get comfy with in here. (Rudder pedals are helpful with 38's and I never bothered to re-hook 'em up for AH.)
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The F6F will be a better plane for most pilots in the Main Arena since it is a better-turning plane.
For scenario-style fighting, the P-47 would be better since it's faster (a lot faster at high altitudes) and has more guns.
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in a knife fight , the f6-f pretty easily
in the MA the f6-f is ok , but it lacks a bit of speed these days with what everyone is flying, maybe jug or hog 1A are better options.
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I like both. against myself, i'd probably win with the f6f.
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I'll have to go with the D11. Why? Because the 56th said so :rock
Honestly I think it would come down to pilots.
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F6F. Not even a contest unless it's to run away.
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Cool feedback so far.
I should have qualified "pilots being of equal skill".
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F6f all day long.
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F6F. Not even a contest unless it's to run away.
Yikes. I agree with BaldEagl. It isn't even close.
- oldman
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I like both. against myself, i'd probably win with the f6f.
Me vs Me, both planes would collide without landing a single hit and crash outside of proxy range.
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Hellkitty every time. I love both planes but in a straight up brawl vs myself, starting at 10k, the F6 would win every time.
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F6F is a better turning plane, while the jug dives better.
F6F has the win unless the pilot lawn darts.
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At MA altitudes (i.e., low) - the F6F hands down.
Down on the deck the only advantage of the D11 is roll rate. It is not even much faster then the F6F. The F6F will out-climb it by nearly 800 fpm (from memory) and out turn it with ease. As altitude increase, D11 will start to develop a significant speed advantage. At 22,000 feet, where F6F reaches it wrong max speed of 385 mph (should be 400-404 mph), the D11 is already significantly faster and climbs just as good. From here upwards, the D11 will rule.
Both are super-cool planes, so there is no decisive coolness factor to tip the scale either way.
On the deck, the mossie VI is better than both :P
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I eat Mossies for lunch :D
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At MA altitudes (i.e., low) - the F6F hands down.
Both are super-cool planes, so there is no decisive coolness factor to tip the scale either way.
have to disagree there , the jug doesnt come in blue
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have to disagree there , the jug doesnt come in blue
Yes it does..
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/234_zps2fb58da7.png)
Maybe not the D11 but there are plenty of blue jugs. ;)
(http://www.ozarkairfieldartworks.com/images/P-47MUNT_1_.jpg)
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ok I stand corrected - they are both cool
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F6F is a better turning plane, while the jug dives better.
F6F has the win unless the pilot lawn darts.
The Jug doesn't dive better. The P-47s compress at a lower speed (Mach 0.73 vs Mach 0.75). Dive acceleration is virtually the same.
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The Jug doesn't dive better. The P-47s compress at a lower speed (Mach 0.73 vs Mach 0.75). Dive acceleration is virtually the same.
Troof
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F6F hands down is the better bird :devil
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Yikes. I agree with BaldEagl. It isn't even close.
- oldman
And to add insult to injury, the Jug accelerates like a slug. All the F6F has to do it turn on WEP and catch up and eat the Jug for breakfast. Both are pretty big targets, but the F6F is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
In the MA, I've turned with La La's, Spits, and Zero's in a F6F and managed to splash about everything that came at me. And it could take a beating when it was more than 1 vs 1 and keep on fighting. Pretty durable plane - its a real gem in the right hands.
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ok I stand corrected - they are both cool
:lol :aok
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Mmmmmmm F6 BUUUUUT the jug has super secret powers. :noid
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Mmmmmmm F6 BUUUUUT the jug has super secret powers. :noid
Last time I faced a P47 in a F6 was against Zach during a little DA action. We collided and our burning wreckage spun to the earth. :lol
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Last time I faced a P47 in a F6 was against Zach during a little DA action. We collided and our burning wreckage spun to the earth. :lol
Yeah but the F6 probably looked better on the way down. :lol
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F6f all day long.
Because vis in the F6F is so awesomesauce! lol. The vis in the F6F is soo bad...Dodger lives longer in a LA7 on the deck with FULL FLAPS deployed than he does in the F6F (he's one of the best F6F guys in the game). If that doesn't tell you vis is a problem that will cause death, I don't know what will!!
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Because vis in the F6F is so awesomesauce! lol. The vis in the F6F is soo bad...Dodger lives longer in a LA7 on the deck with FULL FLAPS deployed than he does in the F6F (he's one of the best F6F guys in the game). If that doesn't tell you vis is a problem that will cause death, I don't know what will!!
I don't have much of a problem with the vis in the F6 anymore. With the right views the blind spot isn't really that big.
Btw Changeup, i'll be in the DA for a while if you want your rematch. :t
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I don't have much of a problem with the vis in the F6 anymore. With the right views the blind spot isn't really that big.
Btw Changeup, i'll be in the DA for a while if you want your rematch. :t
I'll be on later tonight if you are going to be on. I have:
1. Kids baseball (last tourney)
2. Steak to grill (Kabobs marinated with zucc, squash, tomatoes, onions and brocc)
3. Watch LSU beat A&M because Johnny "wad" Football blows
4. Get the Christmas stuff out of the attic so the family can be ready to attack it immediately after Thanksgiving.
Im thinking 930CDT
Changeup
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I'll be on later tonight if you are going to be on. I have:
1. Kids baseball (last tourney)
2. Steak to grill (Kabobs marinated with zucc, squash, tomatoes, onions and brocc)
3. Watch LSU beat A&M because Johnny "wad" Football blows
4. Get the Christmas stuff out of the attic so the family can be ready to attack it immediately after Thanksgiving.
Im thinking 930CDT
Changeup
Aside from the food, I'm glad I don't have to worry about any of that today. :salute
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Aside from the food, I'm glad I don't have to worry about any of that today. :salute
Agreed. I haven't had turkey yet and Christmas just isn't working quite yet for me, lol
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Because vis in the F6F is so awesomesauce! lol. The vis in the F6F is soo bad...Dodger lives longer in a LA7 on the deck with FULL FLAPS deployed than he does in the F6F (he's one of the best F6F guys in the game). If that doesn't tell you vis is a problem that will cause death, I don't know what will!!
This is very true. The Hellcat is not as effective in the MA these days imo . 1-1 it can still take on almost anything . But in multi-con engagements it has 2 problems that combine to hinder your survival , the views , which restrict your SA at times , and the fact that you are slower than 90% of the planes being flown , you just can't get out of there even if you do manage to see that you should. I flew a few sorties in la7's and spit 16's last night and the fact that you have an escape from trouble option just makes such a huge difference in todays MA.
I've also found (and it might be being paranoid) that hellcats seem to be high on peoples priority kill list as a nice easy target . They are big ,slow , can't get away , generally easy to shoot at . Give me a choice between trying to get guns on a Yak and guns on a hellcat , I know myself , I'd be thinking "Kill the fattest one first"
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Yeah but the F6 probably looked better on the way down. :lol
Yes...I agree I cut a more stylish profile as my dark blue plane exploded into fragments. :lol
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Because vis in the F6F is so awesomesauce! lol. The vis in the F6F is soo bad...Dodger lives longer in a LA7 on the deck with FULL FLAPS deployed than he does in the F6F (he's one of the best F6F guys in the game). If that doesn't tell you vis is a problem that will cause death, I don't know what will!!
When I fly the F6 I consider the rearward visibility to be a bonus i.e. one less thing to check or worry about!
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Because vis in the F6F is so awesomesauce!
If you fly it some, you'll get used to it.
Shouldn't matter that much anyway, if you're thinking about what your pursuer is going to do next.
- oldman
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..
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The F6f rear via is not a big problem in a fight as much as it is in transit. In a fight I much more vigilant in my SA and frequent turns allow you to check 6. In transit I often had players sneak up my low 6 when I am not looking around as often and hold straight and level.
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I can answer this question with stats..
Over the last 12 tours where I flew the F6F (where I score at least one kill), I have 415 kills and 11 deaths. That's a 37.7 to 1 ratio.
Kills were divided about equal between air to air and air to ground. Most losses were to ground fire.
The F6F-5 is a very capable fighter and jabo. It has no serious weakness beyond a poor rear view. If you have good ACM and SA skills and know the Hellcat's strengths and limitations, you can be very successful in the MA.
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I can answer this question with stats..
Ohhh stats, can I do too? :x
This year so far (156-165), the F6F has 159 kills on the P-47D-11 while the 47 has 231 kills on the F6 :noid
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Ohhh stats, can I do too? :x
This year so far (156-165), the F6F has 159 kills on the P-47D-11 while the 47 has 231 kills on the F6 :noid
I wonder if that's because f6 is more likely coming from cv's heavy
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I can answer this question with stats..
Over the last 12 tours where I flew the F6F (where I score at least one kill), I have 415 kills and 11 deaths. That's a 37.7 to 1 ratio.
Kills were divided about equal between air to air and air to ground. Most losses were to ground fire.
The F6F-5 is a very capable fighter and jabo. It has no serious weakness beyond a poor rear view. If you have good ACM and SA skills and know the Hellcat's strengths and limitations, you can be very successful in the MA.
No offense but style of play comes into play here sir. Furballing in the MA is not a choice a lot of folks make. I've watched and seen a lot of styles lately. Hovermonkeys, Altfairies, Fringepickers, 12 Clearers, Scoretards. Even if you choose to fight 50-50 one half being furball, you won't have scores that look like this. Dodger is as good as I've seen in the F6F and his scores are not close to this because he is about 90-10 furball.
Scoring vs fighting...any solid a/c can come up with those numbers or similar numbers depending on the pilot.
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I wonder if that's because f6 is more likely coming from cv's heavy
It is.
The F6F is mostly used for bomb hauling in AH, some notable exceptions doesn't change this in general. The 47-D11 however is almost always used as a pure fighter.
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I'll just say neither are exactly what you'd call menacing :noid.
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No offense but style of play comes into play here sir. Furballing in the MA is not a choice a lot of folks make. I've watched and seen a lot of styles lately. Hovermonkeys, Altfairies, Fringepickers, 12 Clearers, Scoretards. Even if you choose to fight 50-50 one half being furball, you won't have scores that look like this. Dodger is as good as I've seen in the F6F and his scores are not close to this because he is about 90-10 furball.
Scoring vs fighting...any solid a/c can come up with those numbers or similar numbers depending on the pilot.
It isn't just style....
90% of MA pilots I encounter are not very skilled. Pretty easy to kill, assuming they stick around to fight. Among the other 10% are the skilled and a few genuinely talented. Furballing virtually guaranties you a poor result. That's fun if you don't mind unrealistic combat and simply enjoy the scrum. Sometimes I'll join the furball, but not commonly. I usually fight on defense, often against the mob.
To run up a great K/D, you usually need a very good fighter. Over tours 164 and 165, I managed 95 kills to 3 deaths flying the N1K2-J. Please understand that I do not fly any one type consistently. I have no favorites, but choose based upon the need and my mood at the time.
Dodger is a very good stick, and I've had fun fights with him many times. Unfortunately, I've caught him low and slow often. Redd is very good in the F6F, as is Greebo.
The P-47D-11 is a high altitude fighter. You seldom see one on the deck (unless he just dived from altitude). I would expect that the Jug would have more kills of the Hellcat than vice versa. The fact remains that if a P-47D-11 encounters a Co-E, Co-alt F6F-5 below 15k, the P-47 is at a clear disadvantage. At 20k or above, the Jug has the clear advantage. In between is largely a toss-up. The fact that the F6F-5 is modeled 20 mph slower at critical altitude than it should be, doesn't help.
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It isn't just style....
Furballing virtually guaranties you a poor result
I thought you said it wasn't about style...
Its all about style. You don't have those scores if you furball. No one does.
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Its all about style. You don't have those scores if you furball. No one does.
I do!
Oh, wait . . . that was 37 to 1, not 1 to 37. Never mind.
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It is.
The F6F is mostly used for bomb hauling in AH, some notable exceptions doesn't change this in general. The 47-D11 however is almost always used as a pure fighter.
The D11 is an experts plane. No one will roll out the jug with the bird cage canopy and worst climb rate for air to air work and jabo capability is really minimal. The F6F on the other hand is one of the two standard CV Janos and many will take it over the F4U because it is easier to get off the carrier and it climbs better.
Comparing the K/D of them on each other does not say much aboutb true capability.
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This is very true. The Hellcat is not as effective in the MA these days imo . 1-1 it can still take on almost anything . But in multi-con engagements it has 2 problems that combine to hinder your survival , the views , which restrict your SA at times , and the fact that you are slower than 90% of the planes being flown , you just can't get out of there even if you do manage to see that you should. I flew a few sorties in la7's and spit 16's last night and the fact that you have an escape from trouble option just makes such a huge difference in todays MA.
I've also found (and it might be being paranoid) that hellcats seem to be high on peoples priority kill list as a nice easy target . They are big ,slow , can't get away , generally easy to shoot at . Give me a choice between trying to get guns on a Yak and guns on a hellcat , I know myself , I'd be thinking "Kill the fattest one first"
This is very true. The other big deciding factor for me to target the hellcat first is the excellent gun package she boasts. I'd much rather take 6x50cals out of the fight than a single pop gun.
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The F6f rear via is not a big problem in a fight as much as it is in transit. In a fight I much more vigilant in my SA and frequent turns allow you to check 6.
I need to spend some time in the F6F just for that very reason. Good point.
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I thought you said it wasn't about style...
Its all about style. You don't have those scores if you furball. No one does.
That's exactly what I said. You can't furball with any expectation of landing those kills. You may get lucky and do so now and then, but it's far more common not to get back in one piece. So no, you won't have a very good K/D. My point is, that you can't take an average fighter and run up a high K/D on style alone. You have to be good enough to consistently defeat better aircraft, sometimes multiple aircraft, often having the tactical advantage over you. I enjoy that kind of challenge (which is why I often fly the A-20 as a fighter).
So, relative to style... You can adhere to various styles of game play. The better sticks can compete within any "style" of game play. However, the furball doesn't always favor skill.
I join in the furball on occasion. I prefer, however, the 1v1 fight. The question to be answered is, which is the better determinator of skill, a barroom brawl, or a boxing bout? It boils down to what one enjoys.
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The question to be answered is, which is the better determinator of skill, a barroom brawl, or a boxing bout? It boils down to what one enjoys.
Which is called "style" as in style of play. Question answered.
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The Jug because it looks prettyer :aok
Seriously, the hellcat turns better for sure, but thats an unimportant factor for me since i didnt feel comfortable in it every single time i got slow why the jug did exactly the same moves i wanted her to do. Others might find it going the other way though. The rest is just SA and a friend as a wingman - both planes are quite good.
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Jug.... two more fi-dees...
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The Jug doesn't dive better. The P-47s compress at a lower speed (Mach 0.73 vs Mach 0.75). Dive acceleration is virtually the same.
I lol'd. Thanks Widewing.
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1v1 in the MA I give it to the hellcat even if the 47 has E advantage and alt It can easily out maneuver any p47, yes even the 11, and could easily reverse the 47 using the planes full potential .
In a furball situation I give it to the 47. It can pick and use its 8 guns to crush some one who is engaged. It also has better E management at high speeds. Therefore it is a little easier if E is kept to get away from hoard of attackers.
If the 47 gets slow it doesn't have the ability to reverse as well as the f6f if cons are a higher speed attacking you. If 47 gets slow it is in trouble.
The views are pretty terrible in the F6f which can put it at a disadvantage. However it can take off from CV and jabo bases off the water.
It depends on flying style, experience, and certain scenarios but both planed easily have there advantages and disadvantages given the types of troubles you like to partake in
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I always had trouble flying the D-11, unless I was at ALT with speed, I usually ran into trouble - slow acceleration and climb rate was my biggest problem - making the 47-D11 a BnZ unless I was well over 20k.
Thus being said, the Hellcat is pretty slow, however it can Turn quite well and climb decently. Under 20k it holds the edge in my opinion - however above 20k the 47-D starts to shine..
I've been in a few fights above 20k, unless the Jug makes serious mistakes it shouldn't lose - however watch the acceleration if you slow down - the hellcat can be tricky.
Below 10k, the Hellcat can win easily, above 20k? Jug should.
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Top speed of the Hellcat was not 400mph (either the -3 or the -5). Tests done at Boscombe Down and Patuxent River:
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh561/texasfoster/f6f-level_zps4a63097a.jpg)
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Top speed of the Hellcat was not 400mph (either the -3 or the -5). Tests done at Boscombe Down and Patuxent River:
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh561/texasfoster/f6f-level_zps4a63097a.jpg)
You are incorrect. Why?
The Brits didn't fly the F6F-5 with a secondary Pitot probe. Thus, they failed to correct for the large error induced by the poor location of factory pitot tube static port.
The only other F6F-5 on that chart was tested at MIL power, not WEP. Grumman tests and tests performed by TAIC demonstrated speeds well in excess of 400 mph... TAIC is the Technical Air Intelligence Center at NAS Anacostia.
From TAIC Report 17, the tests flown at NAS Patuxent River, November 1944.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0b53/66hsqbk4grlc68gfg.jpg)
If we compare performance in Aces High between the F6F-5 and Zeke 52 (A6M5b), you'll see that the F6F-5 is too slow, and the Zero is too fast.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=25&p2=33&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)