Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DaveBB on November 10, 2013, 01:20:01 PM
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A very common 1vs1 fight goes like this. Two planes from opposing sides see each other, and turn towards each other. As the two planes pass each other (guns blazing usually), one plane goes into a hard horizontal turn. The other plane does an immelman (pulls vertical until inverted, rolls out wings level). The plane that uses the vertical maneuvering, has he actually lost any energy? He's traded his kinetic energy into potential, right?
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Pulling any G's will use E, so he does lose some E to pull the G's to perform an immelman. He does however now have the altitude advantage since the other guy pulls a flat turn. Plus, as you said, he has converted his kinetic energy into potential energy.
Looking at speeds alone, the guy who pulls the flat turn has more E. Looking at it positionally, the guy who pulls the immelman has the advantage and I think positioning is more important that speed.
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with WW2 era aircraft in most cases maneuvering is going to result in an overall net loss of E, where the advantage lies is managing those loses better than your opponent and buying an advantage with the E you do spend.
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Pulling any G's will use E, so he does lose some E to pull the G's to perform an immelman. He does however now have the altitude advantage since the other guy pulls a flat turn. Plus, as you said, he has converted his kinetic energy into potential energy.
Looking at speeds alone, the guy who pulls the flat turn has more E. Looking at it positionally, the guy who pulls the immelman has the advantage and I think positioning is more important that speed.
I better stop flat turning at the merge and go for the imel so I can get the advantage then :rofl
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most planes I encounter run after the first turn
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most planes I encounter run after the first turn
I don't think it counts as running when they are on your six doing it..... ;) j/k <S>
To the op I enjoy that scenario and know if they DON'T come in guns blazing it will be a good fight. But being the MA, the e loss of neither will matter when the three cons drop in to "assist".
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most planes I encounter run after the first turn
i ran out of energy just reading that... :rofl :neener:
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most planes I encounter run after the first turn
That's because they're laughing at the dogfighting A20. Clearly he's drunk and doesn't know what he's doing. :huh
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I better stop flat turning at the merge and go for the imel so I can get the advantage then :rofl
:lol
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That's because they're laughing at the dogfighting A20. Clearly he's drunk and doesn't know what he's doing. :huh
yes clearly drunk,ignor all A20s,they are harmless...... carry on :cheers:
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Pulling any G's will use E, so he does lose some E to pull the G's to perform an immelman. He does however now have the altitude advantage since the other guy pulls a flat turn. Plus, as you said, he has converted his kinetic energy into potential energy.
Looking at speeds alone, the guy who pulls the flat turn has more E. Looking at it positionally, the guy who pulls the immelman has the advantage and I think positioning is more important that speed.
I believe E is always considered as the combination of potential and kinetic, so the guy who turned flat might have more speed, but not more E. Not unless he merged with a lot more speed than the other guy.
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I believe E is always considered as the combination of potential and kinetic, so the guy who turned flat might have more speed, but not more E. Not unless he merged with a lot more speed than the other guy.
Well I'm not very smart, so I just consider E and speed the same thing. :)
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Remember, in these scenarios, we are just examining one variable. Same exact planes, same load-out, same pilot skill. Yes, the 'E' I am talking about is Kinetic + Potential.
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So what's your point? :headscratch:
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Well I'm not very smart, so I just consider E and speed the same thing. :)
hehe.. well I think you're plenty smart enough to shoot me down and I wouldn't want you to get any smarter by that token. But knowledge is not to do with smart. Smart is the processor speed and knowledge in on the hard drive. :) Einstein was wrong, E=Alt+Speed not mc2
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You have never lost E until you turned in an A8. :old:
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A very common 1vs1 fight goes like this. Two planes from opposing sides see each other, and turn towards each other. As the two planes pass each other (guns blazing usually), one plane goes into a hard horizontal turn. The other plane does an immelman (pulls vertical until inverted, rolls out wings level). The plane that uses the vertical maneuvering, has he actually lost any energy? He's traded his kinetic energy into potential, right?
It really depends on how the planes turn, but in most cases, the plane going up will end up with more energy after completing a 180 degree change of direction.
The reason is that the plane going upwards is converting its speed into alt and pulling its turn at a slower speed. Slower speeds means less drag and a higher prop efficiency. The plane doing a flat turn is doing all of it at a higher speed, so if he wants to complete the 180 at about the same time as the plane going up, he has to pull some significant G's at a higher speed which means burn more E.
The other advantage of going up is that if you started at a high speed and your plane is G limited (i.e. pulling into a blackout), a slower speed means a smaller turn radius, so in terms of the geometry, the plane pulling up to reverse will complete the move inside the turning circles of the flat turning plane (as seen from above) and above it, which allows the high plane to point its nose down and and use roll to pull ahead of the turning plane - if the other player is stupid enough to keep going round and round, so don't count on it.
Some planes in AH have low induced drag and can get away with a high G 180 degree turn and keep most of their E. Others (190's, P47s for example) will lose a lot of speed in a prolonged flat turn. Some players will choose to start with a flat turn in order to suck the other player into a knife fight, especially if the suspect the other player will keep a lazy/safe BnZ routine or just run. Generally, a high wing load plane with a good power/weight ration is best served by going upwards, so expect every 109K4 that you see to pull up immediately after the merge. Now, is that the right move to pull? in a duel it is efficient and what most players will do. In the MA it will often get you killed because trading speed for alt leaves you a stationary and less maneuverable target. In a furball I always keep my eyes on the 109's waiting to see them pull this vertical move on someone - then, immediately as I see their nose pointing up I leave my current target and swoop in to pick their cherry at the top of their vertical turn. Gives one almost as much satisfaction as blasting an F4U with its flaps and gears out (Furballer's cherry-picking manual, Chapter 1).
Every move has its value and the right time to use it - and also the wrong time. In a furball, speed is more important than alt, or in energy terms, a Joule of real kinetic energy is more useful than a potential one.
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yes clearly drunk,ignor all A20s,they are harmless...... carry on :cheers:
Anytime I see an A20 over 2K, I assume it's you... And I won't run, I always enjoy fights with you. You even win some of them....
On topic, if your opponent flat turns, and you immel, he has lost more E than you and you are in a better position than he.
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Yes, go vertical. As you do so keep an eye on the bad guy. The ideal vertical pull-up does not include 'graying out' or seeing the tunnel. Just a comfortable vertical climb to conserve as much energy as possible.
Frequently what I see happening is the other guy starts going flat, sees you go into the vertical then attempts to go vertical with you. This is headed to the famous 'rope a dope' where he stalls out, you drop your nose and kill him while he's in a flat spin. Did that twice last night with big fat F4Us getting pummeled by my little A5.
Boo
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Really depends on the two planes whether I flat turn or do an Immelmann merge.
I prefer the chandel or flat turn merge over Immelmann because I like to be under the target.
Being under the target I can control the fight and let the enemy make the first mistake.
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Really depends on the two planes whether I flat turn or do an Immelmann merge.
I prefer the chandel or flat turn merge over Immelmann because I like to be under the target.
Being under the target I can control the fight and let the enemy make the first mistake.
whats your preferred ride?
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whats your preferred ride?
I prefer 109k and F , 190a5 and D, 47m and 11.
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Yes, go vertical. As you do so keep an eye on the bad guy. The ideal vertical pull-up does not include 'graying out' or seeing the tunnel. Just a comfortable vertical climb to conserve as much energy as possible.
Frequently what I see happening is the other guy starts going flat, sees you go into the vertical then attempts to go vertical with you. This is headed to the famous 'rope a dope' where he stalls out, you drop your nose and kill him while he's in a flat spin. Did that twice last night with big fat F4Us getting pummeled by my little A5.
Boo
Heh. True..I've caught a few P38s trying to hammer head me while in an A6m3 or A6m5 who unpleasantly find out just how much control a Zeke maintains even at the top of a stall out / rope. I either nail them as I stand on my tail or (even more fun) convert the downward fight into a decending rolling sissors. Doesn't always work, and the 38 usually entered the climb underestimating my e and the zekes below 2K climb rate (which isn't bad), but when it does I just smile. :lol
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most planes I encounter run after the first turn
I think because you are so quick at gaining the advantage in your first turn. The best way for me to counter your excellent first move if I am late is get out of the A20's gun range as quick as I can then reposition. :salute
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That is the only thing you know how to do is flat turn. :D
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I wish the 190a8 could do more than one turn without falling out of the sky.
most planes I encounter run after the first turn
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I wish the 190a8 could do more than one turn without falling out of the sky.
oh man :bhead
I really like you LD guys, but all you guys complain about is the freaking A8. What's the big hard on for it? I mean really?
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Maybe because it has a lot of guns? :headscratch:
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oh man :bhead
I really like you LD guys, but all you guys complain about is the freaking A8. What's the big hard on for it? I mean really?
You want the big guns so you can get the kill before your 5 squadmates behind you can get it....
:noid
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As a rule of thumb I teach the verticle fight first with an F4U and almost all planes in this game. Now that being said, there is what I call the banzaii merge, which is an almost flat turn at an enemy going into the verticle. Basically what it is betting on is that you can get though your flat turn quicker then the other guy can get through his verticle turn. For the most part you can, The flat turning plane will normally keep a higher speed state and therefore stay closer to their maximum turn rate for a longer period of time. While the verticle plane is not only burning speed in the verticle by going up but also by turning. So it's not at it's maximum turn rate for as long. So what the low planes hopes is that he gets through his turn first and catches the verticle plane before he finishes his verticle turn. This is of course figuring equal planes and equal E states to begin with. It's a banzai merge becouse if the low guy doesn't get position and a good shot he blew all his E and the other guy now has a huge postion advantage. I throw this merge at my students from time to time to see if they are paying attention, it's usually fairly easy to counter if caught early enough in the first merge.
:salute
BigRat
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I split S on the merge giving me loads of E
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I split S on the merge giving me loads of E
Diving to the deck full throttle /w WEP doesn't count as a Split-S. ;)
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Diving to the deck full throttle /w WEP doesn't count as a Split-S. ;)
It sets me up for great angles :aok
I call it the SNAKEiis