Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wanker on March 22, 2000, 08:50:00 AM
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Is it just me, or is HO'ing become rampant in AH? Seems almost every time I get into a good fight, one of us ruins it by using the HO.
While it is a legitimate tactic, technically, I wish more people would start refraining from HO'ing, and instead use ACM to gain the opponent's six. I know this is just a game, but I wish we'd start to fly more like the real pilots did. From what I've read, HO'ing was not a very popular way to fight. And with the ultra-lethal guns of AH, HO'ing ruins more good potential fights than any other form of baffoonery.
I going to stop using the HO as a means to a quick, cheap kill. Won't you join me?
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 03-22-2000).]
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banana you've opened a whole can sh*t with this one...
Just don't say anything about the "Strato buffs" or the Hog C's guns and you'll be safer...
<Mox helps banana build a fox hole for the incoming fire>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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I can mail you a zipped film, showing me avoiding a HO. In the film,you'll see me past the con trying to HO me, and the next frame, you'll see my wing depart. Almost similiar to the "Watermelon" sized bullets theory. After reviewing this, I've come to the conclusion that it may be fruitless to try to avoid the HO with an F4U-1C, my question is : How can that 1C shoot 30 degrees off the nose?
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OH,man!!! Headon!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I've been caled whiner, complainer, stupid and MUCH more things that I wont reproduce here, because I call ANY pilot thet tries to make a HO when he gots the advantage : DWEEB!!!!
2 nites ago I was in a p51,just took off, and I was jumped by a Spit 10K over me...did he bounce me? no. did he tried to get my 6? no
He dived on my and he was STRAIGHT FOR A HEADON!!!!!!!!!!!!
of course I tried to avoid the HO...he got two pings and my wing was gone. And when I called him Dweeb on #1 channel I was called all you can imagine (except handsome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
I'm not giving bad numbers, because I started to count this since I p̣sted "HO Dweebiness" post. Last week, roughly 3/5 of my deaths happened when I tried to avoid headons...I was even headoned by a P51 when I was on F4U!!!! (note...I tried to avoid, he got my elevator and I had to run...Spraying from 1.5K Is VERY effective to assure pings in Headon...)
So,keep on calling me things, people. for those who defend such dweebiness, well I hope you like MADs (mutual assured destruction). For those who dont, be ready to die A LOT of times trying to avoid headon.
And to avoid some answers...NO IT DOESNT TAKE 2 to do a HO!!! if one tries to avoid it it is STILL A HEADON!
ah, BTW...exclude from avobe called dweebs the F4U and Niki drivers...those things are Headon Machines, and one of their best moves is to try a HO, 4 20mms are MORTAL. ANd exclude also those poor fellas being vultched...HO is their only resort...Exclude too all those people with a HUGE disadvantage in Energy...or those surrounded by 3 cons...
But to dive 10K on a con to Headon it is a MORTAL DWEEBINESS!!!!
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Ripsnort: Net-lag may have something to do with the appearence of extreme off-angle shots striking home. Also, liberal use of a rudder-stomp at the moment of merge can slew the guns through quite a few degrees.
As for the question of HO in general, I use it when I'm desperate (no way the enemy's E-state will allow me to saddle up), when I seriously outgun the opponent (and again am nuetral/disadvantaged position), and when protecting Buffs/Gooneybirds (cause to let em get by you would spell D-E-A-T-H for my charges (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). For what it's worth, I read an account by Charles Lindberg about his time spent in the Pacific Theater with the 5th Air Force (known, by the way, as The Buccaneers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). His one and only kill -- as a civilian observer and consultant, he was supposed to avoid actual combat, except in self-defense -- was a head-on with a zero. He notes in the account that the head-on was a favored tactic of the Japanese pilots at this time in the war, despite the firepower advantage held by most Allied fighters. My own speculation regarding this is the lack of experience by Japanese pilots at this point in the war, combined with a foe who refused the engage in the classic turn fight, made this the only shot many Japanese pilots would get at downing Allied iron.
I never take a HO if I know I have the advantage. Likewise I'll rarely turn it down if I don't, and firepower is on my side.
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
[This message has been edited by Rojo (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I can mail you a zipped film, showing me avoiding a HO. In the film,you'll see me past the con trying to HO me, and the next frame, you'll see my wing depart. Almost similiar to the "Watermelon" sized bullets theory. After reviewing this, I've come to the conclusion that it may be fruitless to try to avoid the HO with an F4U-1C, my question is : How can that 1C shoot 30 degrees off the nose?
Rip, Maybe Torgue could tell us! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And I thought I was one of the only people that saw this happen on a regular basis with one plane and one plane only the F4UC.
I've had this happen with other planes but 75% of the time it's the F4UC.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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kill the ugly blue beast the evidence is there give use a korean war plane or take the hogs zeke like low speed handlin (not mentioned in any books i have read )away preferably lose the plane altogether , you got just a few guys who have discovered how to aubuse the hell out of it and unless we all go hog game is almost pointless when aginst a hog.
was funny when torq and the mob crew came on yesterday and the 5 or 9 kill crap started numbers droped on rook side to 11 guys aginst 28 or so bisquets , who you gona kill when all log because of the gamers exploitin any hole in the game
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Before we can have meaningfull discussion on head on's, we should probably define what kind of head on we're talking about. If we're talking about getting into a turn fite and after a few turns the other guy gets his guns on u first and has a decent front quarter shot there's nothing thats not historical or realistic about that. If we're talking about a hed on shot at the start of a high speed merge, well that was less common, but not unheard of.
Avoiding a high speed head on by an f4c or any other aircraft for that matter is easy as hell. Just do a nose low barrel roll under his nose starting at no less than 1500 out. It definately screws up your lead turn and many other merge set ups but it's still possible to win the merge even after having to barrel roll. Fact is, you should never go head on with any aircraft that has cannons, it makes climbing to the fite a complete waste of time.
I guarantee that no matter how much someone dislikes head on's they will most definately resort to it if you catch them at a disadvantage and you give them the opportunity to take the shot.
CRASH
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I agree that the HO is to prevelant in AH.
And i like Ram have been mugged by head ons from planes with a superior potential energy state. Darn frustrating ,like putting socks on a rooster .Funny i always get slammed by the Spittys in this way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I fly the F4U-1C on occasion and enjoy it i dont look for HO attacks but i feel secure in having it as a defensive measure. I dont instigate head ons but i will do my upmost to end it if attacked in that way. But usually it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth not to mention a couple of parts missing from my plane. I much prefer to secure an e-advantage in the Hog/or 190 for that matter and come over top and behind my enemy blowing him to smitheriens.It is very gratifiying ,maybe even preversly so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Right now i see no viable solution because you cannot control others actions in the game. Ive seen it before where setting up certain honor codes only causes animosity,and frustration. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
On my part i as a Virtual Pilot i must devise tactics to avoid this situation,because when i find myself in most HO situations its because i made a SA mistake. The high head on included. Most times i have no one to blame but myself.
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banana I agree, HO's suck. It's the tactic that makes the most use of net lag and the unrealistic parts of the gunnery model (range finder mostly).
It's not true that it takes 2 to HO either. 75% of the cons I see will try to fire on the merge regardless of what I do. However they can be avoided usually. So I guess it takes 1.5 to HO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But given the maneuverability of our excellent Polish Spitfires, we can usually avoid these guys. We'll work on it Thursday in squad training.
<S>
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Mike "FunkedUp" Waltz
Aces High Instructor Corps
Squadron Leader, 308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
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I'm still working on it several months later and my contempt for headons has diminished to next to nothing now. At the same time I will now eagerly oblige someone who looks to be tryin a HO to me at the merge by zooming in on 'em and firing a burst before I try to duck myself out of thier way. Works most times. If I lose? No biggy, I jump in another plane...
-Westy
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When at a lower alt and a con pounces on me using a HO, I do not try to avoid it! I will take a HO anytime. I do not try to initialize them but, I wont turn away from them either. Except against cannon birds.
Ya know sometimes ya dont have a choice.
The reason I don't mind HOs is that I can finally get my sights on an enemy aircraft. My ability to sight up an aircraft is not good! So I lose 70% of the HOs anyways!
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh! I also hug ack!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Swager
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Hey Funked, when do we learn how to swear in Polish? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Guys, I know that there are sometimes when the HO is your only course of action left, but I'm speaking more about a Co-alt merge at 20K, when you both have a choice as to what type of fight it's going to be. I'd like to see more people go for the advantage after the merge, rather than the HO before the merge, that's all.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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Stop the bellyachin. It's unseemly and undignified.
Someone points a big blue beast at me; I duck.. or not. If I get him; or he gets me, it's all part of flyin and dyin in here.
Just like Vulches... And blindside AFK bounces; sport ditch shootin, ropa-dopin and all the other various ways we kill each other in here... and folks, it's on the list as a historicly accurate way to die... or kill.
Yah pays yer money; yah takes yer chances. So stop the whining and sniveling. If yah got tagged and bagged; get another plane and next time duck or shoot first.
Hang (humph. Tired of hearin this line of drivel)
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... oh... and who in hell ever said that Air Combat was freakin FAIR?? What; the other guy is supposed ta toss his percieved advantage (what ever that might be) out the cottin-pickin canopy and then give YOU an even break??
LOL!
Dead level 'guns cold' matches are great in Ladder duels. Not freakin likely in a combat enviornment.
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Amen Brother Hang!!!
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Swager
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-22-2000).]
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OK "From now on" If I am in an HO situation and I can't safely duck I will wait until I see the other plane shoot. Probably will get killed more often but that's better than offending others. Besides getting whacked is no big deal. I am not going to start whining and calling the other fella names if he does
Too bad we can't hang out a sign saying "I don't do HO's" Wave wings or something.
Hard to avoid an HO with a F4U's for some reason!
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I wish you would stop raggin on torq about flying the 1c. He kicked my butt when he was flying the n1k2. Im very happy with his choice of planes these days (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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banana - as for swearing - just send a request to the mailing list (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) we will hook you up
As for head on - anyone is welcome to head-on me. It gives be a great shot at them as soon as i come out of that lead turn (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Fellas--you ever heard of a barrel roll?
It is not that hard to avoid a HO.
It requires that you abandon an attempt to a gun solution on the HO that your adversary attempts. When you approach the con--its time to get speed and a little lateral seperation. At a point aproaching the merge, depending on the situation, You want to pull a lead turn into the con. this should leave you with favorable position on him.
If you insist on heading right at him--then you have a couple of good options. When you get to about D2.0 or D1.5 point your nose under his. It will be hard for him to get anything on you rather than a quick snapshot. He probably wont ping you. Second option--approaching merge---hopefully you have great speed at this point!!--at D2.0 initiate a barrel roll. Now after you have merged and you are somewhere in the middle of your barrel roll, your opponent will have initiated an immelman (at least if he is worth is salt) to gain an alt advantage over you. You need to do the same or extend and then do the same. When and how aggresive you do this has EVERYTHING to do with the type of AC you and your opponent is flying. Your vertical manuever doesn't have to be a classic immelman--it can be a combo flat and vertical manuever.
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AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines
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Thanks for the free pointers, Ammo, I'm going to give those a try next time. This is the kind of exchange I was hoping to get with my initial post.
Hangtime, thanks for adding nothing to the discussion, and lowering yourself to rude, personal attacks.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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banana.. no personal offence was intended. My point remains valid.. HO's are a part of air combat.
>>Seems almost every time I get into a good fight, one of us ruins it by using the HO.<<
This statement deserves hopping upon with steel-toed boots, and runs contrary to reality in the arena. Seems that what you wanted was sympathy for gettin whacked in HO's.
>>And with the ultra-lethal guns of AH, HO'ing ruins more good potential fights than any other form of baffoonery.<<
Another swift kick was forthcoming for this one. Can't tell yah how many times I've been faced with a decision.. drill in and HO and possibly get the guy after my Buff or C47 or to preturn for an angles fight. No question what the right decision is really; and I dislike being considered a 'baffoon' for using ANY option available that may turn the tables on the other guy. And that includes HO'ing the guy if necessary.
And then:
>>Thanks for the free pointers, Ammo, I'm going to give those a try next time. This is the kind of exchange I was hoping to get with my initial post.<<
Yep; Ammo's pointers are good ones; and thats what I usually do if I have that option. Nobody wants to run into a HO.. certainly not me with a one ping engine and 6 undermodled .50's vs 4 Cannon. No Sir.
BUT!!! your initial post was NOT asking for help in devising a workable defence aginst HO's; it was a whine about HO's in general. Quite a diffrent kettle of fish.
So; *<PUNT>* banana!
Say "ouch."
Hang
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Ouch! Hey, stop that! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Actually, my original post was an attempt to get people to stop pointing their noses at each other and spraying, and instead to use ACM or the force, or the Schwartz...ANYTHING, to get on the other guy's six and kill his ass.
Alas, my experiences tonight were the same: More HO's than a Hennepin Ave massage parlor.
At least Ammo's tips helped me avoid them all...well, most of them anyway.
If my crusades to stop the HO'ing sound like whining, so be it. If I can save one person from a HO attack, then I'll feel vindicated.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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LOL.. Understood, banana. An honorable mission. Sorry I jumped the wrong way...
(hang buys the next round)
....and don't let my cat see them green bottles. She'll pinch em fer sure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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HO's suck, it's as simple as that.
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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1 - HO sucks -> Agree 100%
2 - HO is a RL tactic -> Agree 100%
3 - HO is easy to evade -> Agree 50%
4 - In Star Wars VI, Luck's Hawg1C shutdown Darth Vader's advanced TIE in a HO from d2.0 no matter how many lasser shots poor Darth used -> This is a fact, cant disagree.
5 - 99% of Spit pilots use HO over'n over -> Agree 99% (cant understand why).
6 - Slower'n lower cons will HO on you 50% of the times.
7 - The best HO ally: lag.
8 - The worst HO foe: good ACM.
9 - The most efficient HOer: B26.
10 - The most common Hoers: Hawg1C and mad spits.
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I use a spit5 or a 109g6 all the time--I dont HO unless it is too my advantage. A HO on a merge gets you the same odds as your opponent--50%. Thats not good enuff for me. IN RL the history and tales I have read say that the HO had an "unnerving" factor to it. I would say that if my life was on the line that this would be true. You would think the guiy was crazy!
mandoble--I invite you to some 1 on 1- you applying HO tactics. well see how many times you shoot me down--agreed?
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AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
mandoble--I invite you to some 1 on 1- you applying HO tactics. well see how many times you shoot me down--agreed?
I can't understand very well this invitation. Why should I have to HO on you? To demostrate that evaing HO is possible? I agree with that 50% of the time. Evading HO implies also to evade the resulting deflexion shooting of the Hawgs, and this is not so easy.
Any way, if you want some HO trainning you can find me in MA about 22:00 Gmt+1 time.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
3 - HO is easy to evade -> Agree 50%--I disagree--this is why I invited you to prove it to me. Ill evade your HO's (im not saying you use this manuever) much more than 50%
5 - 99% of Spit pilots use HO over'n over -> Agree 99% (cant understand why). How did you get that figure--are you just inaccurately generalizing?
6 - Slower'n lower cons will HO on you 50% of the times. Why?
8 - The worst HO foe: good ACM. I do agree to this.
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AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines
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3 - HO is easy to evade -> Agree 50%-- I disagree-- this is why I invited you to prove it to me. Ill evade your HO's (im not saying you use this manuever) much more than 50%
This is getting boring. I also can evade HOns more than 50%, but most of the people cant do, this implies this is not absolutely easy and safe task. It depends a lot on the speed and energy, put your spit or 109 at 160 mph and try to evade a fast Hawg1C HOing you ... Arena is not head to head, there are more than only two planes, once you are dogfighting a con, another can HO on you just when you're getting slow.
5 - 99% of Spit pilots use HO over'n over -> Agree 99% (cant understand why). How did you get that figure--are you just inaccurately generalizing?
Obviously, yes. Perhaps 99% is exagerated, lets say 98%.
6 - Slower'n lower cons will HO on you 50% of the times. Why?
Put a spit low'n slow, aproach it fast from 90 or 270 degrees, most of the times you'll see the spit turning at you and starting to spray'n pray. I've seen that dozens of times.
Do a hammer over those slower spits and you'll see the con burning his little E HOing on you as you fall from above dozens of times also. Another typical scenario, spits taking off a sieged base while you cover. You'll see them tanking off and aproaching you with only HO in their heads.
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Why has this never happened to me????????????
I keep trying to remember when I was forced into a HO fight.... I just can't do it! I just CAN'T feel your pain!
Mebe Al Gore can fix it, He invented the internet anyway. Hey He is probably responsible for rubber bullets too!
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Coyote
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Yes-- you are aggravated. No worries.
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AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines
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HO's? LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not again...
Keep in mind, there are no grandious rules for shooting down your opponents. The idea is to shoot them down, nothing more nothing less. Do it anyway you can.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew